English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Vitaly

8:03 PM

@MetaEd Is “That nonsense is utter nonsense” a well-formed sentence?

user19161

@Vitaly It is to me.

cpx

If nonsense is a noun and utter is adjective, I guess it sounds correct to me.

Vitaly

If it is, I refuse to parse the animals example with an implicit noun at the end because the sentence *That nonsense is utter is clearly unacceptable.

user19161

@simchona I am also casting delete votes on all his closed questions...

Gigili

@JasperLoy OK, I want to know your opinion.

MetaEd

8:09 PM

@Vitaly Redundant, annoying to the hearer perhaps, but well formed (grammatically correct).

user19161

@Gigili Of what?

Gigili

@JasperLoy What did I do wrong? Then this person jumped in and insulted me?

Cerberus

@MetaEd An interesting theory.

user19161

@Gigili I did not witness the entire series of events, so I cannot offer my opinion on this matter.

Cerberus

Are you suggesting that this is how adjectival subject complements came to be in Proto-Indo-European (or earlier)?

Gigili

8:10 PM

@JasperLoy So what gave you the idea that I might be interested that K is offended or is dead?

Cerberus

(Because there is no evidence for this from historical periods, I think.)

user19161

@Gigili Well, I just thought it would be good to reconcile, that's all. Perhaps that's not the way to go.

MetaEd

@Vitaly What you can do with some adjectives you cannot do with others. "That nonsense is red" works; "that nonsense is complete" doesn't. Is it intensifiers that you can't do it with?

user19161

By the way, those wondering who Gigili and I are discussing, it has nothing to do with this room.

Vitaly

@MetaEd Nope: putative, future, former are also attributive-only adjectives that cannot function as predicative complements.

To me, both the attributive wild and the predicative complement dangerous modify the animals in that sentence.

There are also predicative-only adjectives like alone, liable, and ablaze.

user19161

8:17 PM

This grammar talk is too deep for me...

MetaEd

@Vitaly "The liable party will pay damages."

Vitaly

Hm.

OK, you seem to be right with liable.

David Wallace

8:49 PM

@Robusto That sounds right. Of course, if she's really good, she might ENCOURAGE people to park there, rather than discourage them

MetaEd

@Vitaly "The newly ablaze trash heap lit up the alley."

Cerberus

@Vitaly "Cannot" is a bit too strong for putative.

MetaEd

"The unexpectedly alone students looked around themselves worriedly."

Cerberus

@MetaEd That's not the intended sense of liable.

MetaEd

@Cerberus What sense is intended?

Cerberus

8:52 PM

I believe what they mean is liable in the sense of pr0ne.

MetaEd

Shouldn't that be spelled "pr0ne"?

:D

Cerberus

As you will.

So shall it be.

MetaEd

I'm having a Star Trek flashback involving an ugly clown.

Cerberus

You have led an interesting life.

RYogi

Hi all, I am new around here. I am wondering if it is common practice to downvote a newbie on the first question based on few imprecisions, despite them being basically inconsequential to the clarity of the question.

Cerberus

8:58 PM

Hi!

I don't know, I'm afraid anything is possible.

People are often a bit critical here...

RYogi

that's encouraging :)

MetaEd

@Cerberus And the Children Shall Lead

Cerberus

@RYogi Yeah, I know. Have you read the post by Joel, our Overlord?

MetaEd

Ouch. URL fail. I'll fix that.

user19161

@RYogi Are you referring to any particular post?

RYogi

8:59 PM

@JasperLoy, guess :)

Cerberus

@MetaEd At least you didn't accidentally post some bestiality.

You know that sets me off.

user19161

@RYogi I have seen over 9000 posts on this site, so I can't guess!

MetaEd

@Cerberus What sets you off is a private matter and none of my business.

RYogi

@JasperLoy, my one and only post.

user19161

@MetaEd You were a victim of the moving target...

user19161

9:01 PM

@RYogi Let me take a look right now...

Cerberus

@MetaEd All right, I suppose I don't want to know anything about your humanality either.

It's just wrong.

RYogi

@JasperLoy, thanks.

Cerberus

If we have laws against bestiality, then why is that stuff allowed?

MetaEd

@RYogi I see jwpat7 commented on some errors which were important because they made the question hard to understand: perhaps that was the cause of the downvote.

user19161

@RYogi I see that it has a +3 and -1, no big deal actually. I thought you got over 9000 downvotes!

RYogi

9:04 PM

@MetaEd, there were definitely errors, but just in the preamble, quite detached from the question itself.

user19161

@RYogi People can downvote for many, many reasons. There really is no way to tell. Anyway, one should not ask two unrelated questions in a single post. For example, the which or that has no business there.

RYogi

@JasperLoy, I agree, no big deal. Just inquiring, because my experience on other .SE sites is very different.

user19161

@RYogi I would agree with you that downvotes are more common here, but it is not really a problem.

RYogi

@JasperLoy, allright, that's all I wanted to hear. Thanks.

Cerberus

@RYogi To me, your first version seemed OK.

user19161

9:06 PM

@RYogi By the way, you misspelled "alright".

user19161

@Cerberus When did you switch from okay to OK? The world must be ending...

Cerberus

I think the down-vote was undeserved.

@JasperLoy I am not aware of switching...

user19161

@Cerberus You always used OK?

user19161

@Cerberus Well, it might even have been because of the that/which issue which I mentioned.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I don't know.

@JasperLoy It is possible.

MetaEd

9:11 PM

@JasperLoy Details at 11.

David Wallace

@JasperLoy "alright" is a misspelling of "all right".

MetaEd

@DavidWallace Grammar Girl on alright

Matt Эллен

I'm alright, you're alright

simchona

-1

Q: Capitalizing the U in United States

Is it true that until the civil war we did not capitalize the U in United States?

history

There was only one Civil War in the US. Doesn't it deserve capitalization?

Matt Эллен

32

Q: Is it "alright" or "allright"?

In practice I find both spellings being used. From a logical point of view, "allright" (as in: "all's right - everything is fine") seems correct. However, I recall hearing that "alright" is the preferable variant. Is there consensus over which to use? Do they possibly even mean something differe...

word-choice american-english differences british-english orthography

David Wallace

9:23 PM

@MetaEd Yeah, "gaining a small footing" doesn't mean it's good English. "Me and John went fishing" has a "small footing".

MetaEd

@DavidWallace Spelings overated.

user19161

@MattЭллен So my spelling is alright. Phew!

MetaEd

@simchona To the extent that words can be said to be deserving, yes, definitely.

David Wallace

@simchona I'm not sure. I have only one wife. I don't write "Wife", unless she begins a sentence.

simchona

@DavidWallace But this is a proper noun. If her name were Norma, you wouldn't say "my wife norma"

MetaEd

9:27 PM

my wife normally does

David Wallace

@MetaEd LOL

MetaEd

context is everything, he said annoyingly

David Wallace

How is "civil war" a proper noun?

MetaEd

@DavidWallace It's the name for a particular war.

David Wallace

What would happen if USA had another civil war? Would we go and de-capitalise all references to the first one?

simchona

9:29 PM

@DavidWallace Well, it wasn't the world war was it?

David Wallace

Hmm, you're right. World War 1, World War 2.

First World War.

simchona

I don't think people went, "oh, this is only the first of two. Let's tack on a number now while we're thinking about it. You know, to prepare"

David Wallace

I knew that - I'm just trying to pick a fight.

Actually, WWI was originally called The Great War. Until WW2 happened.

MetaEd

en.wikipedia.org/w/…

@DavidWallace Oh. I suppose some people consider questions to be fighting words (religious extremists come to mind). I don't, generally speaking.

David Wallace

Ah, of course, The American Civil War.

To claim that there was only one Civil War is like saying America is the Only Country.

simchona

9:32 PM

@DavidWallace It isn't?

Here I was thinking Australia is the next state over. Near California. Or Nebraska.

David Wallace

Umm, it IS the next state over. From me, at least.

MetaEd

@DavidWallace Agreed. However, when Americans use the term Civil War among themselves it's not a tacit claim that there was only one. And incidentally, what's an American? >:)

David Wallace

And I just see that you (Simchona) did actually say "there was only one Civil War in the US". Which is fair enough.

MetaEd

Right. "Civil War" is certainly a proper name for a particular war ... however, which particular war it means can certainly vary from one locale to another.

user19161

0

Q: Is it rude to call your girlfriend "hole"?

Sometimes I see people who call their girlfriends "hole". And girlfriends seem to be happy. It is rude to do so?

word-usage

user19161

9:36 PM

Do people really do that?

user19161

Anyway, voted as OT.

simchona

I've never heard it from my "person"

David Wallace

I've never heard it. Must be a regionalism.

Or he/she misheard "whore". And apparently, so did the girlfriend.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy dating-advice clearly required!

I've only heard hole as an insult

MetaEd

Right, also voted OT.

user19161

9:37 PM

@MattЭллен Maybe mating advice is better.

Matt Эллен

"Do not call your partner(s) holes while mating"

David Wallace

Send them texts instead?

MetaEd

In this context, hole is plainly along the lines of c**t. In any context other than Lady Chatterley's Lover I think it's unacceptable. But there are no hard and fast rules about pillow talk.

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace yes, or email.

David Wallace

What about money-hole?

MetaEd

9:39 PM

@MattЭллен Can you call your partners bluffs?

David Wallace

Pick your partners. Pick your nose. But never pick your partner's nose.

Matt Эллен

@MetaEd if it is a risk you're willing to take

MetaEd

@DavidWallace Right. Except when she asks.

Gigili

I think I need to vomit now.

user19161

@Gigili Carry on please.

user19161

9:46 PM

@MetaEd I am wondering if there could be another interpretation.

MetaEd

10:02 PM

@JasperLoy Wonder aloud. I want to hear this.

It could be an ESL misunderstanding a different word. Ho, for example.

Ho as hole.

And I do know how to spell asshole, in case you were wondering.

user19161

@MetaEd I can't think of anything except that it might be "whole" instead.

MetaEd

I can only think of ho.

Well, or haole, if the person is living in Hawai'i.

All tainted words, though.

user19161

So today on ELU we have a breast question and then a hole question, very interesting.

MetaEd

10:19 PM

@JasperLoy Not to mention thumb bending backwards.

Meysam

I am listening to the WKTT Talk Radio

Gigili

Good for you.

simchona

10:34 PM

Please flag it as spam/offensive. It should delete it if enough flags are thrown

Gigili

But it isn't promotional?

simchona

@Gigili It's still "offensive". I think it's the same flag.

Gigili

OK, done.

Vitaly

Done.

simchona

Spam + offensive = nuked

And there it goes

He wonders why he wasn't "welcomed back"

user19161

10:36 PM

The flag UI is quite confusing. I took quite long to figure out which option.

simchona

@JasperLoy As long as it gets marked as spam and/or offensive, it gets deleted

As long as there are enough flags thrown like that

MetaEd

@simchona So another by our special friend?

simchona

@MetaEd Yup. A smutfic

He complained about being suspended for something (the other smutfic) he did before he was suspended the first time

So this should count as "well, guess you effed up now too"

MetaEd

I see our suspension period is a bit more reasonable this time.

simchona

Overly so considering what he just did.

MetaEd

10:41 PM

But it's basically useless unless a better way to prevent his disruptiveness can be found ...

user19161

I am now at war with NS.

MetaEd

The world is full of socks, apparently.

3

simchona

Waiwai mentioned that something will happen Monday to deal with him, I think

But he couldn't say more until then

18 hours ago, by waiwai933

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not temporary mod powers, but something along those lines will be forthcoming. I can't really say more until Monday.

user19161

Anyway we really just have to ignore him.

user19161

I did not think he was so evil a few hours ago.

simchona

10:43 PM

@JasperLoy I don't think you can say he's just "misunderstood" any more

Did y'all see my email from a mod at another forum he terrorizes?

MetaEd

You think if we just ignore him, he'll stop? If he were reasonable, maybe. But he strikes me as diseased. He may not be able to stop.

simchona

4 hours ago, by simchona

> Thank you for your email. This person is an irritation to us too. We banned them for posting hardcore pornography pictures and expressing a desire to see every American dead. Since then, they have been making accounts daily and posting endlessly; we ban as soon as they surface. This troll is a nasty piece of work and has caused problems elsewhere (Englishforums, etc).

MetaEd

@simchona No.

simchona

4 hours ago, by simchona

> Unfortunately, they're very dedicated and don't get put off by bans- we've had them for a couple of years now. IP bans wouldn't work as they use a proxy, but they don't hide their identity. Posting again and again is one of their strategies. They also know how to make accounts quickly through disposable emails. I am sorry you have met them.

I told the mod that there was content scraping going back and forth, and that it could eventually be a copyright issue

MetaEd

What is the other forum?

simchona

10:45 PM

> english.stackexchange.com/questions/75435/fantastic-finishing

Flag it now.

And downvote please.

@MetaEd UsingEnglish.com

user19161

@simchona It's not so much the copyright as the disruptive behaviour. Perhaps one now needs a lawsuit to deal with him.

simchona

@JasperLoy I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what can be done. But he clearly will never be a "good" user

user19161

But in the mean time, just keep flagging, deleting and closing him. That's all we can do as users really.

simchona

@JasperLoy Until Monday, perhaps.

user19161

@simchona Maybe waiwai meant that by Monday, the Interpol would be in his house with handcuffs.

MetaEd

10:49 PM

@JasperLoy Hmm ... I don't think that's much like temporary mod powers.

simchona

@MetaEd Maybe we're all joining Interpol

MetaEd

@simchona Stack Exchange should consider banning the proxy site.

user19161

@Gigili Oh posted that from the other room earlier.

simchona

@MetaEd That's an idea

Gigili

@JasperLoy ?

user19161

10:50 PM

@MetaEd Well, he can always access the site from various places right?

simchona

@waiwai Can SE do anything like that? banning a proxy?

user19161

@Gigili I mean I saw that in the TeX room and reposted it here.

MetaEd

Proxy sites have IP address ranges just like anybody else.

It's a hardship (maybe) for other proxy users.

Gigili

@JasperLoy OK.

user19161

@Gigili Oh, you used OK today too instead of okay.

user19161

10:52 PM

Everyone is switching to OK now! Yay!

simchona

I'm waiting for him to strike again

David Wallace

@simchona You should be a police officer.

Gigili

@JasperLoy It's a long time I use it, before you were born.

simchona

@DavidWallace I don't need no stinking badges.

user19161

@simchona I have forgotten about him long ago. Let's not waste our time thinking about him.

simchona

10:54 PM

@JasperLoy Please don't be patronizing

David Wallace

@simchona Yes, but I think you might enjoy having a gun.

simchona

@DavidWallace Sounds like risky business

David Wallace

What, you having a gun? It wouldn't be risky to everyone!

simchona

Maybe a taser would be better. Less risk of permanent damage.

David Wallace

I am strongly anti-taser.

Journeyman Geek

10:56 PM

rubber chicken filled with lead shot.

David Wallace

I have seen too many reality cop shows on TV, where stupid police officers use tasers as instruments of torture.

user19161

@simchona I am not being patronizing.

Journeyman Geek

rather misses shooting

cpx

Guys, I have one question regarding adjective in a sentence:

Can 'window' be an adjective in this sentence? "The window ledge is too narrow for a plant."

David Wallace

Yes.

cpx

10:57 PM

I think it's unlikely that book might be wrong again.

Journeyman Geek

sadly, we can't own guns here, and i got the dumbest military occupation as a reservist.

cpx

As I checked in dictionary, there's no mention of 'window' as an adjective.

I'm being confused :S

simchona

@JourneymanGeek The position as reservist is dumbest? Or the position you got as a reservist

David Wallace

Dictionaries don't usually contain every possible meaning of every word.

In the sentence that you posted, it's certainly an adjective.

Odd story about guns. If anyone cares. The first time I went to Sarajevo, my wife and I went to a cafe for lunch. There was a police officer sitting near us. He finished his lunch and left, but his handgun had fallen out of its holster. When the next people arrived and went to sit at his table, the gun was there on the chair.

cpx

@DavidWallace Thanks. I have no idea how to confirm it though.

user19161

11:03 PM

Oh I saw his stupid post again, which is also deleted.

Gigili

@DavidWallace And?

David Wallace

Sorry to disappoint, but that's the entire story.

Gigili

What the hell, then.

Vitaly

@cpx → en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_adjunct

user19161

@DavidWallace It might be a fake gun.

Gigili

11:05 PM

When there's a gun, someone must have been killed with one bullet.

cpx

@Vitaly Oh I see, good.

David Wallace

@JasperLoy Because police officers are always leaving fake guns lying around in cafes?

user19161

@DavidWallace Maybe he was a nutcase pretending to be a policeman.

user19161

He got his gun from toys r us and his costume there too.

David Wallace

@JasperLoy I don't think the story has to be that complex. Occam's Razor suggests that he was a real police officer, and it was a real gun.

user19161

11:08 PM

@DavidWallace I only know about razor blades...

David Wallace

LMGTFY - no, can't be bothered.

user19161

I mean yes I do know about Occam and his Razor...

Vitaly

@cpx It isn't CGE, is it?

cpx

Nope.

I guess I'll be opening it in the first week of this august. :P

Gigili

Cool Gigili what?

David Wallace

11:26 PM

Can anyone tell me how I might explain to a non-native-speaker friend what the idiom "clutching at straws" means?

Journeyman Geek

@simchona: When i was active, i was a vehicle parts storeman. Now? Officially General Equipment Storeman, unofficially, I just fetch coffee and food

in either case i don't have/get to shoot.

Gigili

Depends on the NNS.

Vitaly

@cpx All right. I'm sure CGE mentions the attributive noun construction somewhere. About your example, I wouldn't analyze the window there as an adjective because the distribution of attributive nouns is different from that of adjectives; for instance, you can say white window ledge but window white ledge is ungrammatical. If reordering does occur, it probably entails a shift of category. A Student's Introduction to English Grammar (which is based on CGEL) analyzes attributive

David Wallace

The best I can come up with is "looking for a way to do something which is actually hopeless and unattainable".

Vitaly

nouns and AdjPs as sub-categories of pre-head modifiers.

@DavidWallace Um, it invokes the image of a man falling off a cliff who is trying to clutch at thin blades of grass growing on the edge of the cliff for lack of anything else

David Wallace

11:32 PM

@Vitaly Does it? You have a very vivid and detailed imagination!

Vitaly

@DavidWallace that's probably because we have a similar idiom in Russian which is more vivid

Gigili

@DavidWallace Oh I posted a question!

user19161

@Gigili Where?

Vitaly

in any case, you could try to explain that clutching at straws describes something as unlikely to result in a good outcome in a hopeless situation as grasping at those blades of grass when falling from a cliff

Gigili

On main.

David Wallace

11:39 PM

I will point my friend at the question and answer there. Thank you, @Gigili and @Vitaly for your help.

Gigili

Any time.

Vitaly

(of course, I assumed that you—or your friend—have already checked a general reference such as a dictionary, e.g.: idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasp+at+straws)

MetaEd

@DavidWallace Gotta be careful not to cross the beams. A taser and an anti-taser could pack a hell of a wallop.

Gigili

Oh, dear. That's a GR question.

simchona

@gigili sorry, I voted to close but didn't downvote.

Gigili

11:47 PM

@simchona OK, thanks.

Mitch

@simchona did I hear right, that enough flags will auto-delete it?

David Wallace

Can I vote to re-open?

Gigili

Actually I didn't know it's an idiom, so I looked up the words and it didn't make sense.

simchona

@mitch 3 spam/offensive take it off front page, 6 delete it

@waiwai933 Did you see your two new impersonators?

waiwai933

@simchona Sorry, we've looked into it, and an IP ban is infeasible.

simchona

11:50 PM

@waiwai933 Even against the proxy service itself?

waiwai933

@simchona I saw two last night; are there more now?

simchona

@waiwai933 There were two deleted just an hour or so ago

waiwai933

@simchona Thanks; I'll take care of it

@simchona Unfortunately so.

simchona

@waiwai933 Darn.

Well, he posted smut this time.

waiwai933

Also, I think I may have overemphasized Monday. It's a small improvement, not a huge one.

simchona

11:52 PM

Some improvement is better than none.

Joseph Weissman

Hi guys.

And gals, I guess.

David Wallace

Interesting. thefreedictionary.com redirects "clutching at straws" to "grasping at straws", but redirects "grasp at straws" to "clutch at straws".

simchona

Hi @JosephWeissman. What brings you here tonight?

Joseph Weissman

Gender and language are funny things, no? It's fascinating to me that some languages gender everything

simchona

"Guys" to me is pretty neutral

Joseph Weissman

11:55 PM

Like even planetary objects and radically inhuman things get gendered. Wild.

I think so, too @simchona

Just checking in. I sometimes bug @Cerberus about silly things from time to time.

MetaEd

@Gigili I do not think it's a GR question. My test for that is a Google search for the phrase. In this case the only thing that turned up was a band by that name.

I should say my Google search is always the word "define" followed by the phrase.

David Wallace

Well, I googled "clutching at straws". The first hit for me was the free dictionary - and it seemed to me that none of the definitions there quite captured it. That's why I went on to ask here.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Hello there!

Vitaly

@MetaEd → i.imgur.com/7nXGy.png

Cerberus

I was just going to bed, alas.

Joseph Weissman

11:57 PM

@Cerberus yay! and alas!

David Wallace

It seems to me to be in the grey area of GR-ness.

Cerberus