The h Bar

Jimnosperm

4:00 PM

answer

I got it wrong, suffice to say

David Z

Hey everyone, chat session time

Jimnosperm

@DavidZ topic?

JamalS

@DavidZ We're chatting :)

Jimnosperm

but are we sessioning?

John Rennie

can I make some comments on homework questions without everyone running away screaming?

ACuriousMind

4:04 PM

C'mon session harder

2

@JohnRennie I think that's what chat session is actually for...so, yes ;)

David Z

@Jimnosperm I was too lazy/busy to come up with one :-P

@JohnRennie sure

Jimnosperm

@JohnRennie I can only promise either no running away or no screaming. You can't have both

David Z

I mean, I won't run away screaming

John Rennie

I'm concerned we're a bit too hard on homework questions.

David Z

though I actually do have to run away because they're going to lock the building at some point and I don't want to get stuck inside... but temporarily, I promise

Jimnosperm

4:05 PM

John I agree. I've been thinking recently that we are way too tough on them

John Rennie

I don't think we should answer them,

but I do think it's OK to give hints, or maybe some background discussion

David Z

Well, but we're not a discussion site, we're a Q&A site.

John Rennie

We don't want lazy students getting the idea we'll do their homework for them

But homework is set to teach students physics, and teaching students physics is good

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie The problem is, we'd have to police the answers even harder than the questions, because there certainly are many users who would be happy to get a few points by just solving a homework question

John Rennie

When you're in a tutorial and the tutor takes you through a problem you can't do it's a great way to learn

Jimnosperm

4:08 PM

what we could do is, instead of answering "how do I solve this problem" we could answer "how do I approach this type of problem"

John Rennie

Can't we at least go a little way to being that tutor

JamalS

I agree, there needs to be some mechanism that allows homework questions to be addressed in some way that benefits the student.

John Rennie

@DavidZ yes, we're a QA site, but we exist for the greater good of the physics world as a whole

David Z

I would argue the mechanism is other websites. In other words, I don't think we should try to be a homework help site.

John Rennie

and training the next generation of physicists is part of that greater good

JamalS

4:09 PM

@DavidZ But... those other websites are garbage... Well, maybe I'm exaggerating slightly.

David Z

@JohnRennie eh, I wouldn't be so quick to say that. We exist for the greater good of whoever we want to help. It's up to us to decide whether that's the physics world as a whole or only some particular subset of it.

@JamalS I disagree.

John Rennie

@JamalS Yes! They're garbage because they're unmoderated.

I think if you combine our very (excessively? :-) active moderation with a more relaxed approach to homework the physics world will be a better place.

Gowtham

giving hints through comments/chat and then VTC'ing isnt appropriate ?

David Z

well, but will this site be a better place?

Jimnosperm

@DavidZ Our job is to Q&A about physics. If we answer "How do I do this problem" with "Here's a non-specific method of approaching this type of problem" then we're putting the methods and practices of physics on the internetz

JamalS

4:11 PM

@JohnRennie I agree with David that we shouldn't be thinking of the 'whole physics world' so broadly.

John Rennie

@Gowtham I must admit I tend to do that, but it's a bit of a cop out

If you're going to help why not do it properly?

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie But we can't community moderate the answers. Only moderators can delete answers with positive scores. We'd have to make it very clear that we are not tolerating solution answers, vote them down, and get all 20k members to delete such solution as quickly as possible. We don't have enough 20k members to do that reliably, I think.

The Dark Side

Hey guys :)

David Z

@Jimnosperm right, but... well I have two objections to that. One is the point @ACuriousMind just made.

Gowtham

@JohnRennie isnt the moderation around here likened to kittens or something ? :P

John Rennie

4:12 PM

@ACuriousMind You're 300 rep points away from being about to vote to delete answers ...

JamalS

@ACuriousMind Yes, that notice would have to be made with an explicit banner on the question.

And there should be a reminder before submitting an answer to a homework question.

A Googler

what does it mean that physics chat session will end in 18 mins?

David Z

The other is more personal, which is that it just feels wrong to be helping people who don't put in any effort whatsoever to do the work themselves. That is, after all, how they learn (or how they are supposed to learn): by doing the work. Being spoon-fed solutions or even hints is of comparatively little value, except when it's done carefully.

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie Yes, and then we'll be a grand total of 14 non-mod 20k users, not all of whom are even active.

David Z

@AGoogler it means I got the schedule wrong when I made the event :-P

John Rennie

4:12 PM

@AGoogler - bug, ignore it. The chat ends at 17:00 GMT

The Dark Side

@AGoogler Google it :P

Jimnosperm

@DavidZ Lacking the moderating power to control something as much as we'd like to shouldn't be the justification of making policy against doing that thing. Otherwise when we have the moderating power, we'll still point to the old policy and say "See, we don't do that thing"

John Rennie

@ACuriousMind It only takes three of us ...

A Googler

@JohnRennie Which chat?

John Rennie

@AGoogler this chat

A Googler

4:13 PM

What is this chat about?

Jimnosperm

physics

David Z

@Jimnosperm I dunno, if the reasons for the policy are encoded in the policy then it makes it easier to change as needed

A Googler

but this chat is on forever?

David Z

The chat room is always here, yes.

This is just the time when we try to gather together here.

Jimnosperm

@DavidZ maybe, but I'd rather look for ways of enabling something now rather than wait for a future that may not come

David Z

4:14 PM

Those who can make it anyway.

@Jimnosperm they're not mutually exclusive

John Rennie

@DavidZ Agreed. It's a judgement call on whether a question is from a pukka student who's eager to learn, or from a layabout.

Danu

Hi

JamalS

Hi

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie Yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm saying that you would have to get explicit agreement among all 20k users (aside from agreement from the broader community) on this. I count about 8 people there I think would vote to delete such stuff. I don't that's enough to reliably discourage solution answers, given that we can only delete negative-score answers.

John Rennie

I thought we could delete any answers ...

David Z

4:15 PM

Yeah, and my sense is that eager students will tend to ask conceptual questions, i.e. questions that don't really come off as homework questions. Not 100% of the time of course, but there should be a good correlation.

Jimnosperm

Even if they are lazy, answering with "Here's how to look at it and the methods to apply, to the general case. Go work out the rest" still teaches them. That's what tutors do, after all

David Z

Anyway time to escape, as I said... I'll log in again when I get back to my apartment (if the internet works)

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie The priviledge page for 20k trusted user says: "Trusted users are allowed to perform trusted actions, including: Voting to delete answers with score of -1 or lower [...]"

John Rennie

Ak, OK, I had that wrong.

A Googler

@DavidZ Oh , thank you.

ACuriousMind

4:16 PM

And since the people who want a solution would upvote the solutions, we are in a bit of trouble there

Gowtham

@DavidZ cant agree more , i followed this route

Jimnosperm

@ACuriousMind There's more of us than them. We can downvote to win

The Dark Side

Rude guys, I almost forgot before posting Hi that I've changed my profile name :)

John Rennie

I wonder if there's a case for giving 20k users more power to delete. I don't know whether that's the sort of thing the SE will do on an individual forum basis.

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm There is no review queue for such answers. So, we make a meta post where we post all solution answers and all of us visit that regularly and vote them down so that three 20k users can delete them? (I also think the delete votes scale up if the post has upvotes, but I'm not sure)

Jimnosperm

4:20 PM

@ACuriousMind I doubt that will work as well as you'd hope

Terry Bollinger

I have this home work problem... Can someone here help me fully reconcile QM and GR without using string theory? It's 10 points...

ACuriousMind

If we can find an efficient way to discourage solution answers, I'm all for being a more lenient with HW, but I don't really see how that would be possible

Jimnosperm

But regardless of this, we're still being too harsh on HW IMHO

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm I was...not really thinking that would work :P

The Dark Side

@TerryBollinger - 10 points or a nobel?

ACuriousMind

4:21 PM

@TerryBollinger of ten?

Jimnosperm

@TerryBollinger magnets

Terry Bollinger

Well, I think the 10 points counts for more, the Nobel takes a long time!

ACuriousMind

@TheDarkSide: I have no idea who you are :P

Jimnosperm

@TheDarkSide 10 points versus 1 Nobel. I believe 10 is greater than 1

2

The Dark Side

@ACuriousMind - You do!!! How?

@Jimnosperm - Haha

Terry Bollinger

4:23 PM

Did Hawkings ever publish his self-retraction paper BTW?

Danu

Guys I really don't think we should change the homework policy. Comment +VTC is good.

2

Terry Bollinger

More seriously, I think helping on homework, cautiously and not in excess, is a really good feature of this site.

Danu

Also, I've always been able to ask my hw questions and phrase them in a way that elicited a positive response from the community

So it's certainly not impossible

ACuriousMind

@TheDarkSide Ah, I've found out who you were before. Welcome back! ;)

The Dark Side

@ACuriousMind Same Q again, HOW???

John Rennie

4:26 PM

I see ACM's point though. It's not us giving hints/conceptual answers that's the problem. It's people giving explicit answers because we didn't close the question.

Danu

But yes, I spent least a few hours trying by myself before I asked, and I think that should be the norm

ACuriousMind

@TheDarkSide Well, the @'s on responses to your old comments still address your old display name. Also, I remembered one of your questions.

Gowtham

@TheDarkSide comments history easiest way i can think of

Jimnosperm

Let's all put ourselves in a student's perspective. Say you've worked on a homework problem all night but you just can't get it. You thought you knew what to do but every time you get only so far in and then are stuck. Or maybe you don't even know where to start. What do you do? Look on the internet for tips and strategies on how to solve the problem. You could look up the solution manual, but the test is on Friday and the solution won't help you learn how to do it.

Maybe you don't know how to ask it as a conceptual thing so you ask "Here's my problem, how am I supposed to do this?"

:20717424 Star it again for 310 times

ACuriousMind

Nah, there's an ugly gap

The Dark Side

4:28 PM

@ACuriousMind There is a reason why you deserve all that reputation :P

@Gowtham Right!

Jimnosperm

Anyway, (thanks for the combo breaker @ACuriousMind) wouldn't we all rather the student finds the proper method and strategies housed here, in our physics info vault, than search endlessly on forums? Why not answer that question with "I'm not giving you the answer, but think about it this way and remember to use this technique to solve it"?

Terry Bollinger

@TheDarkSide (I know what you mean, ACuriousMind somehow seems to know exactly who I am every time I come on...)

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm As I said, I'd be willing to be more lenient with HW if we can discourage solution answers. But I don't see how, and I fear that most people posting HW-like questions here really only want the solution and don't care for the concept.

Danu

@jim because that's what comments are for.

The Dark Side

@TerryBollinger I don't remember you having changing your display name even once during the last six months or so. Ahh, we are talking about a trivial solution then ...

ACuriousMind

4:32 PM

@TerryBollinger Haha, well...you don't change your display name or picture, so you're not that hard to recognize

Terry Bollinger

@TheDarkSide :)

Jimnosperm

@Danu comments are transient. Answers are permanent. The methods and strategies is the best answer we should provide and they should stick

Terry Bollinger

Back on homework: Flat answers are useless and a very bad idea. Somehow ensuring actual learning, when possible, is in contrast helpful to more than just the student.

Jimnosperm

@ACuriousMind We could make it policy to flag solutions as low quality or NAA and let the review queue delete them

Danu

I don't think that's substantial enough to be considered a real answer. Moreover, the issue ACM has been raising how will you do people from actually giving solutions?

ACuriousMind

4:35 PM

@Jimnosperm Can we? I think that would fall under abuse of the LQ flag, since the deletion reasons are not customizable

Jimnosperm

LQ doesn't work for positively voted answers but NAA does

John Rennie

The mods used to quite actively delete answers that were explicit solutions to homework, though I don't think they do it so much these days.

Jimnosperm

@JohnRennie Yes they do. I always flag those and mods delete them

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie Yeah, because we shouldn't rely on mods to do the moderation work.

Danu

Are we really proposing to delete explicit hw answersas "not an answer"? Lol

John Rennie

4:36 PM

Well if we just have to flag explicit answers to get them deleted isn't that good enough?

ACuriousMind

@Danu That doesn't seem quite right to me, either

Danu

It's not fast enough, for one.

Jimnosperm

@ACuriousMind Maybe we'd have to check with mother mods, but if we always delete them, then using LQ queue to expedite the process is probably acceptable

John Rennie

You flag as "Other" and type in "please delete"

Jimnosperm

Other sends to mods

we're trying to let users police them

user54412

4:38 PM

I think there's something wrong with changing site policies in such a way that we know will cause a bunch of answers to be posted that we want to downvote and delete.

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie I think the problem is that mod-only flags should only be raised for exceptional cases. There needs to be a community solution that does not rely on mod powers

John Rennie

@Jimnosperm but where we came in is that 20k users can't vote to delete upvoted answers

Danu

What Chris says!!!!!!!

Jimnosperm

@ChrisWhite To paraphase: Better that 1000 crappy answers be posted than 1 great answer be denied existence

John Rennie

@ChrisWhite it's not ideal, but would the benefits outweigh the costs?

Danu

4:39 PM

I really don't think i agree with that

user54412

@Jimnosperm I think that's the fundamental problem here. What metric are you using?

Jimnosperm

FLRW

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm But...it's not not an answer. You can't LQ flag upvoted stuff. There's just no valid flag for this. And it runs counter to the SE spirit that everything that tries to answer the question should stay

Danu

Btw sorry for not responding to messages the right way, I'm on my phone

user54412

I think the pro-HW-allowed side of the argument is using the $+\infty$-norm: evaluate the question based on the best possible answer, and evaluate the user base based on the best people.

ACuriousMind

4:40 PM

The only reason mods delete the solution answers is because the closing process is sometimes not fast enough to prevent an answer from being posted

Jimnosperm

@ACuriousMind Can we get SE to give our site a special flag option?

John Rennie

Or more delete powers for 20k users?

user54412

I use a more centrally-tending norm: Bad answers and bad questions very much can outweigh the good, and I have no problem whatsoever with missing the occasional great post if it keeps the mean quality of the site up.

Jimnosperm

@ChrisWhite Innocent until proven guilty

Danu

You see Jim, as you know we're in a phase of accelerated expansion which will eventually dilute all good content away to 0 density : let's try to hang on instead of speeding up the process further!

John Rennie

4:42 PM

Lots of crap answers will hurt the forum. That seems a certainty to me.

If we're going to get lots of explicit solution answers that we can't do anything about that would be a big problem.

Danu

So why are your advocating welcoming them to our site (essentially)?

Terry Bollinger

I'm trying to understand: Is the goal that an obvious homework question be (a) deleted as quickly as possible, or (b) have answers that are upvoted only if the answers force the asker to learn how to answer it themselves?

Jimnosperm

@Danu We're in a situation of finite amount of Grade-A content and infinite amount of Grade-B content and we're trying to limit ourselves to Grade-A. Even if expansion wasn't accelerating, this universe isn't infinite

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm I don't think we can get a flag for "this answer is not an answer we want" :P

John Rennie

@Danu I think hint/conceptual answers are good and should be allowed. I must admit it hadn't occurred to me that leaving the question open would also get lots of explicit answers

Jimnosperm

4:44 PM

@ACuriousMind How about "this answer is an explicit solution to a homework problem"

John Rennie

Maybe we should answer then VTC

@Jimnosperm that's no good if it just means the mods get swamped

Jimnosperm

@JohnRennie So no other conceptual answers can compete?

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie Problem here is that there is not deletion queue - you have to manually visit the 10k tools to see pending deletion votes, not many people do that

Danu

I really think clmment with hint +VTC is the appropriate response

John Rennie

Also the lazy students would have got their answer by then and buggered off

Maybe 20k users should be allowed to answer closed questions

Danu

4:45 PM

And this is already being implemented by eg me and John. All is well afaik

Jimnosperm

Time out for a sec. Let's recap

Terry Bollinger

Newbie me again for this topic, VTC?

Jimnosperm

We all admit we may be a bit harsh on HW questions. We want to ease up but only if we can prevent explicit solutions from being posted

ACuriousMind

@TerryBollinger VTC = vote to close

David Z

@Jimnosperm (I don't)

user54412

4:47 PM

@Jimnosperm Nope

Jimnosperm

There doesn't seem to be an agreeable way to do that, so we are saying "Guess we keep being harsh until someone thinks of something"?

That about sum it up?

Danu

Not really, Jim. I don't think anything should change in this regard

user54412

^ same with me

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm I'm indifferent. I'd be fine with being more lenient with HW under that condition, but I don't mind the way it currently is, either.

John Rennie

In an ideal world a homework question is closed immediately to stop explicit answers

But it would be nice if 20k users could still provide a non-explicit answer

Jimnosperm

4:48 PM

In an ideal world, there would be no worry of explicit answers

John Rennie

At them moment I (and Danu) tend to answer in comments

user54412

Also, I'm pretty sure anyone who signs up to post a lazy HW question here simultaneously shotguns all the other physics HW sites on the internet.

John Rennie

But sometimes this is a too restrictive for a good answer

So here's my suggestion:

1. it only takes 3 20k votes to close a homework question

2. 20k users can, if they wish, answer the closed question

Danu

Look, getting an actual change in how the site works (as per your suggestion, John) is just very unlikely to happen.

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie Hm. I'm not fine with restricting answering priviledges based on reputation, I think.

user54412

4:50 PM

I count about 11 non-mod, somewhat active (though not necessarily in reviews), 20k users

John Rennie

OK, but if you agree with the principle then the next step is to ask what we can do along those lines

Danu

Plus, honestly. Which 20k+ except you is going to actually answer those?

John Rennie

I was kind of hoping you would :-)

Jimnosperm

I like the idea of letting high-rep users answer closed questions, but Shog9 is much more persuasive and I'll bet he's got a good reason why that's not done. I'm going to side with him preemptively

Danu

I'm not even close to 20k

John Rennie

4:52 PM

I'll post a question with a 20k bonus

Danu

Hahaha

Jimnosperm

@JohnRennie pocket change for you, eh?

Danu

12.5 would do it

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie bounties are restricted to 500, unfortunately ;)

user54412

@JohnRennie I'm worried about this on two fronts. (1) is @ACuriousMind 's worry about rep distinguishing answering privileges. (2) there will no longer be a clear sign of "go away, we don't want this question" -- people will linger and say things like "oh can't a high-rep users please answer this for me?"

Danu

4:52 PM

Tons of bounties!!!

David Z

@Jimnosperm see what @ChrisWhite just said

John Rennie

I suspect I'd get a kicking for doing that :-)

Danu

Gots points again Chris

Good * damnit

Jimnosperm

@ACuriousMind Jon Skeet can post a 20k bounty

user54412

@Danu Are you cursing stars? Are you cursing astronomers?!

ACuriousMind

4:54 PM

@Jimnosperm "A closed question is either unsuitable for the site altogether or needs improvement before it can fit in well. " Not Shog, but AnnaLear.

Jimnosperm

@DavidZ I already agreed against rep-limited answering

John Rennie

I don't see the problem with high rep allowing answering privileges. It allows lots of other privileges.

Alfred Centauri

@JohnRennie No, we don't exist for the greater good of the physics world as a whole. If it is the case that accepting more homework problems is detrimental to this site then the good of the physics world as a whole (whatever that hell that means) be damned.

Danu

DAMN ALL PLANETS AND LAKE FLYING FUSION REACTORS! ALL HAIL THE HOMOGENEOUS FLUID

David Z

@Jimnosperm yeah, I mean for the argument that Shog9 would probably make (or at least a preview), see what Chris said ;-)

Danu

4:55 PM

LAME***

John Rennie

@AlfredCentauri Well, yes, I agree. If the site quality dives and we all leave then no-one wins.

Terry Bollinger

BTW, surely this homework issues has come up on other sites? Is this why Shog9 was mentioned?

Jimnosperm

@AlfredCentauri All for one and one for itself. Everyone else can suck a lemon

Alfred Centauri

@JohnRennie Now, it may not be detrimental to this site to accept more homework questions. I'm only pointing out that the standard of the good, for this site, is that which promotes the flourishing of this site in fact of reality, not some vague notion of the 'greater good'.

Danu

Lemons are delicious

5

David Z

4:57 PM

Mathematics has similar issues with homework, but I think they decided to throw in the towel and allow homework questions in general

At least, people still post them there

Danu

The math solution is literally hell

Jimnosperm

@TerryBollinger Nah, he just always comes in at last minute and says one thing that puts a swift end to an argument

John Rennie

@AlfredCentauri Well that depends. Is the site just somewhere for us to have fun, or should it be doing some good?

ACuriousMind

@DavidZ Yeah, and they're one of the reasons I don't like to visit math.SE

Terry Bollinger

@Danu Er, Danu, you OK?

Danu

4:57 PM

I can't even spend time on that site cause it is just so flooded with crap

user54412

Ok, here's my opinion. The idea is that there exist more people we could help than we currently do, by becoming tutors for the lazy. Fine. Agreed. We can help more. But we are a generally good group of people. We could answer all sorts of questions and help people, broadly speaking. Computer hardware issues? Dating problems? Inside scoops on the various schools we're associated with? We could answer it all, but we don't, and for good reason.

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie But it doesn't allow you more opportunities to gain more rep than others, which answering closed questions would

Danu

Hi Terry! I'm fine thank you, how are you doing? :) haha

Jimnosperm

@ChrisWhite maybe not dating problems

user54412

As long as we're limited in some way, I see no qualitative reason the scope can't be narrower still. Specifically, excluding laziness is ok.

Danu

4:59 PM

Just as an aside, I'd really really love some inside scoops from you Chris ;)

John Rennie

"tutors for the lazy" - considering a career in tabloid journalism?

user54412

@Jimnosperm Well, I fail in that regard, but I was hoping someone around could prove there's hope for the physics-minded.

John Rennie

@ACuriousMind OK, answers to closed questions have to be community wikis

Danu

Did you miss the discussion on my love life recently?

Jimnosperm

@Danu intentionally

Danu

5:00 PM

:''''(

Terry Bollinger

@Danu Were you dating problems?

2

Alfred Centauri

@JohnRennie this site is for the participants to produce and trade value for value. Is this not good?

Jimnosperm

No, don't ask

Danu

I was dating problematic girls

John Rennie

@AlfredCentauri but that doesn't happen. Big answerers ask few questions.

user54412

5:01 PM

And here I was, thinking you were non-dating problematic girls. It's all clear now.

Jimnosperm

@ChrisWhite Why are you encouraging the discussion?

Alfred Centauri

@JohnRennie answering questions is both production and trading of values.

user54412

@JohnRennie A possibly unfortunate skew, but wouldn't your changes exacerbate it?

John Rennie

@ChrisWhite yes, but I don't have a problem with that.

Danu

Jim are you jealous or something? :P

John Rennie

5:03 PM

@Danu the homework discussion isn't supposed to be about everything that happens in the bedroom :-)

Terry Bollinger

Hmmmm. Later all, this has been... different. Again, to me every answer should teach something non-trivial about physics, and never "just" give an answer. Beyond that... meh.

Jimnosperm

@Danu No, I've gone through an extremely emotionally traumatic event in regards to what used to be my love life in the last half year and I'm not capable of being part of such discussions right now

Danu

@JohnRennie Well I tried to solve it myself. All night long!

John Rennie

"All night long" - travelling at near the speed of light were we? Amazing how 5 minutes time dilates :-)

4

0celo7

On a lighter note, is it possible to derive the exponential addition formula from the power series?

Danu

5:06 PM

Hah!

I just got dissed by John Rennie!

It was all worth it

JamalS

That was a pretty amazing diss.

John Rennie

I'm in a meeeeeean mood now because they won't let me answer homework :-)

ACuriousMind

lol

Terry Bollinger

@JamalS relatively speaking

I left, this is my avatar?

0celo7

@JamalS Can you please answer my question about representation theory?

user54412

5:08 PM

@JohnRennie Secretly, we just need some way to stymie your rep increase.

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 I think it should be, using binominal coefficients and sorting carefully the resulting terms.

John Rennie

@ChrisWhite someone is serial upvoting me.

user54412

@JohnRennie Really? Me too, as of this morning.

JamalS

@0celo7 Georgi's textbook will prep ya'.

John Rennie

I haven't been answering much because real work has got in the way

ACuriousMind

5:08 PM

@TerryBollinger Huh, what? You didn't leave, you're still here

John Rennie

But I'm still hitting the 200 limit most days

Terry Bollinger

I'm self-avataring...

Danu

@JohnRennie Can we get a "yo momma" joke? :D

JamalS

Yo momma's so fat GR can't be trusted near her.

Danu

Decent enough

ACuriousMind

5:11 PM

So, I guess what this chat session has shown us is that, if you really want to change the policy on HW, this needs to be a rather big discussion on meta, and can't quickly be decided here.

John Rennie

Yo momma's so fat she accounts for the missing 90% of matter in the universe.

ACuriousMind

But, well, that would probably not be different from the discussion before, sooo...

Terry Bollinger

@JohnRennie That's a dark matter you are bringing up John...

(I know, I know, dark energy really...)

JamalS

The logistics of such a discussion alone would be perplexing.

David Z

@ACuriousMind yeah. Last time we did anything to the homework policy it was an affair of many months.

John Rennie

5:12 PM

@ACuriousMind To be fair I didn't really expect a change, but I must admit it hadn't occurred to me that by leaving questions open we'd just encourage explicit answers.

And I do think that's a showstopper problem.

Any solutions are likely to complex and awkward

Terry Bollinger

Bye for real, next time I may defiantly bring up some physics question. This session really has felt very... meta?

user54412

Well, I have to run, seeing as I'm volunteering outside this site to teach physics to people who've seen very little of it, and who don't know how to formulate good questions. ;)

Danu

@JohnRennie :D

ACuriousMind

@TerryBollinger Bye!

David Z

@TerryBollinger yeah the meta discussion usually gets concentrated into chat sessions

Stan Shunpike

5:14 PM

hola amigos

Danu

@ChrisWhite Now that's the spirit

0celo7

@JamalS Does he teach Dynkin diagrams and how to do tensor products in SO(10+)?

Danu

I love this chat

5

JamalS

@0celo7 Young diagrams, Clebsch-Gordan, Dynkin diagrams, Cartan stuff, you name it.

Can't remember whether he considers 10+.

Danu

Georgi is the physicist's group theory book.

Stan Shunpike

5:16 PM

Georgi is awesome.

JamalS

I actually didn't hear about it until the PI lectures... surprised I didn't find it before.

0celo7

@JamalS Does he talk about the weird groups like E_8? I'm not comfortable knowing nothing about it before hitting the heterotic string.

JamalS

@0celo7 Okay, firstly, he does mention SO(10), it is given an entire chapter.

The exceptional groups are discussed, and he discusses $E_6$ in particular, but there is no thorough treatment of $E_8$.

0celo7

@JamalS So he has a full explanation of how to go from the magic boxes to the dimension of the representation?

JamalS

Why don't you just download the PDF?

0celo7

5:26 PM

I'm on my phone right now...

Alfred Centauri

@JohnRennie It might be gwen: meta.physics.stackexchange.com/a/6624/9887

John Rennie

@AlfredCentauri Quite possibly. She's cast 112 upvotes this month and 55 this week.

ACuriousMind

5:44 PM

Boy, that comment thread is weird.

Also, @AlfredCentauri, I think your concept of adult disqualifies quite a lot of people, as is seen by the endless meta debates on "Explain downvotes!!!!11!!!" ;)

Danu

@ACuriousMind A recent example comes to mind...

Jimnosperm

@ACuriousMind I'd say the odds are that those people aren't actual adults

Danu

@Jimnosperm Most probably time-travelers from the Victorian age.

Jimnosperm

@Danu That was mean

ACuriousMind

@Jimnosperm The other people in that comment thread? Perhaps. In general, people who get upset about a few downvotes? Sadly, I think many are nominal adults.

Jimnosperm

5:54 PM

What's the age of adulthood in germany again?

ACuriousMind

Uh...18, in general

Jimnosperm

just checking that your definition doesn't include 12-14 area

ACuriousMind

Very few things are restricted to 21, I think, and many things are already granted at 16

Danu

@Jimnosperm Not really

@Jimnosperm Isn't it 18 almost everywhere?

However, note; Iran: 8 years (female). This makes me very sad :(

Jimnosperm

@Danu Probably. I think it's a bit younger in a few countries.

Danu

5:58 PM

@Jimnosperm I just looked it up. 19, 21 in a few US states!

Age of majority

The age of majority is the threshold of adulthood as it is conceptualized (and recognized or declared) in law. It is the chronological moment when minors cease to legally be considered children and assume control over their persons, actions, and decisions, thereby terminating the legal control and legal responsibilities of their parents or guardian over and for them. Most countries set majority at 18. The word majority here refers to having greater years and being of full age; it is opposed to minority, the state of being a minor. The law in a given jurisdiction may never actually use the term...

Jimnosperm

@Danu Maybe it's just me, but I think before they hit puberty is even biologically necessarily still in childhood

Danu

@Jimnosperm You do know why it is like this, right?

Jimnosperm

@Danu Yes

Danu

:(

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