The h Bar

Crazy Buddy

12:59 AM

@DavidZaslavsky Haha... Yay..! Thank you, David ;-)

user54412

4:01 AM

I hereby foreswear any and all further participation in debates about magnetism derived from SR

tpg2114

What prompted that?

user54412

some religious wars are not worth fighting

user54412

@tpg2114 meh - reviewing some old questions and a relatively new one

tpg2114

I'm about to give up on any debates about on-topic vs off-topic questions... If I see the phrase "serious researcher" one more time, I may vomit

I've been looking for things to answer. Can't find anything worthwhile :/

user54412

5

Q: What exactly is the composition of radiation in interplanetary space?

The articles I found on radiation in the solar system mostly dealt with solar wind, I wonder about other types. Is there a breakdown that tells me, withhin an order of magnitude, at least what intensity I can expect for a the different spectra - hard gamma through to radio frequencies, and charge...

user54412

4:08 AM

or did you mean things in your field? :P

user54412

^ I meant to answer that - it's a good question - but it will require research

user54412

I'd bounty it, but given that a bounty just expired with no answers...

tpg2114

Things that I can answer...

I can answer things outside my field too if they are relatively basic enough

Well I got to answer one at least!

@ChrisWhite Going for the Altruist badge? :)

user54412

4:32 AM

@tpg2114 why not - i like awarding others

user54412

@tpg2114 I don't think I've ever found/made any animation for an answer

tpg2114

Oddly enough, I remembered that animation from looking up stuff on my own research months and months ago

Took me a little while to remember which Wikipedia page it was on, but I remembered the animation perfectly

user54412

@tpg2114 perhaps this query? data.stackexchange.com/physics/query/119455/…

tpg2114

Actually, the query itself is more interesting than the questions it turned up :)

My #1 question is:

18

Q: What happened to David John Candlin?

This is an ultra-soft question about relatively recent history. While reading some of Mandelstam's papers, I noticed that he cites David John Candlin consistenly whenever he does anything with Grassman path-integral. Everyone else cites Berezin. So I read Candlin's 1956 paper, and I was stunned ...

soft-question history

user54412

My #1:

user54412

4:46 AM

27

Q: Experimental test of the non-statisticality theorem?

Context: The recent paper The quantum state cannot be interpreted statistically by Pusey, Barrett and Rudolph shows under suitable assumptions that the quantum state cannot be interpreted as a probability distribution over hidden variables (go read it now). In the abstract they claim: "This resu...

quantum-mechanics research-level

user54412

I like your question better

user54412

mine just ended up being flamebait

user54412

@tpg2114 You should go on a trip around the world to locate this elusive physicist ;)

tpg2114

If somebody would pay for it... :)

user54412

find his story, share it with the world

user54412

4:49 AM

I will give you all the rep if you do :P

tpg2114

That would be so much better than my actual work...

I can't seem to get this stuff to detonate in my simulations. It will blow up if you drop it on the floor from waist height in real life, but I can't get it to blow up in simulations...

user54412

forget simulations - go to a conference, drop the stuff from waist height, and walk away with the smug look of having proven your point

tpg2114

Homeland Security might take issue with that

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 add nitroglycerin

tpg2114

That is one of the ingredients. If Looney Toons taught me anything, nitroglycerin should blow up when you move it at all

ManishEarth

4:53 AM

@tpg2114 that's ACME TNT

@ChrisWhite There's a debate? O_0

user54412

o wow, even Ron Maimon still pays attention to that David John Candlin post

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite He still checks for comments

user54412

i know

ManishEarth

On any post of his

At least, that's what he said he'll do :P

user54412

the whole thing reminds me of a 1-person play i once saw - Underneath the Lintel

tpg2114

4:55 AM

I thought the same thing Chris

user54412

@ManishEarth what debate?

ManishEarth

54 mins ago, by Chris White

I hereby foreswear any and all further participation in debates about magnetism derived from SR

tpg2114

7

Q: Slinky reverb: the origin of the iconic Star Wars blaster sound

This is a fun problem that I came across recently, which I'm posting here for your delectation. We all love a good slinky: they can be used for all sorts of fun demos in physics. One example is the "spring reverb" effect, which is well known in the film sound effects industry. If you couple a mic...

waves acoustics

Okay, that's kind of awesome. But a better video than the one in the question:

ManishEarth

sigh not again

user54412

@ManishEarth nothing needing moderator attention, don't worry

tpg2114

4:56 AM

►

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite Umm, no, you'l find out in a minute when the slackbot posts

tpg2114

My broken record starred comment went away

But is just as appropriate

user54412

but in general, yes, there are those (like me) who think all you need for EM is Coulomb + SR, and others (henceforth known as "evildoers") who think that's insane, you have to postulate magnetic fields in addition to electric ones

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite ah

from the axiomatic pov

but ... isn't that a testable hypothesis?

tpg2114

Can I be an ass and point out that we should only have one question per post? :)

ManishEarth

4:59 AM

Pen-and-paper testable

@tpg2114 Yes. You can also flag as too broad.

tpg2114

Oddly enough, it's too broad and too localized

user54412

@ManishEarth yes - i go into the rest frame of the charged particle, where it has no velocity QED

user54412

:P

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite exactly

@tpg2114 Ha!

@tpg2114 Oh, on meta. I guess it' fine to have 20 questions per meta post

tpg2114

I don't think it's fine... maybe if they were all related, but it does go into reverting edits and some other stuff

user54412

5:10 AM

sigh

ManishEarth

14 mins ago, by ManishEarth

sigh not again

user54412

there goes all the meta attention from my urgent, life-or-death bug report

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite If you want I can migrate to MSO

We don't have to, as bugreports are OK on child metas too

and arguably get more attention there

user54412

@ManishEarth it's completely trivial - i'm not actually concerned

tpg2114

Bonus points if you can identify the origin of my comment.

ManishEarth

5:12 AM

@ChrisWhite But on MSO you get repz!!!!

user54412

honestly, odds are my ineptitude with computers has more to do with it :P

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 which?

tpg2114

I posted it on his question

user54412

@ManishEarth ooooo - I do sometimes want to downvote on MSO

ManishEarth

lol

^^ downvotes galore

Physics Meta

5:15 AM

1

Q: Cut-off display and wrong displayed text in posting bounty

I was putting a bounty on a question for the first time, and the text window started bugging out. As you can see, some of the prompt is cut off on the left-hand side (the "E" in "Enter", the "Ar" in "Are"). More frustratingly, my text was altered in the middle of typing. What I actually typed ...

bug bounty

-4

Q: Why was I suspended?

... A week ago, I was suspended from the site for being “offensive”. Here is the message I got from dmckee: Hello, I'm writing in reference to your Physics Stack Exchange account: http://physics.stackexchange.com/users/23119/dimension10 We've received many flags on your p...

discussion support comments suspensions

ManishEarth

@PhysicsMeta Thank you, slackbot

user54412

well, i'm off to bed - but I leave chat with a soothing video

user54412

►

user54412

I will do anything to have a bunch of these floating around my department all day

user54412

instant stress relief

ManishEarth

5:22 AM

@ChrisWhite one guy in our institute made this tiny blimp thingy

tpg2114

Sigh... why did I let myself get sucked in

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 you can step out anytime

@ChrisWhite g'night anyway

tpg2114

Sometimes I can't tell if having a non-mod helps diffuse things or not. When people feel like the mods are out to get them, maybe hearing the same thing from somewhere else helps ease the tension

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 Oh, it does

I always feel nice when a community member leaves a supporting comment :)

But that too

Our meta has an us-vs-mods tone to it, that really shouldn't be there. We're members of the community too.

I'm trying to get rid of that myself (some meta posts coming up if I get the time)

tpg2114

It's a fine balance because it's easy to associate people who fall on the same side often as being the same. So if I agree with/defend the mods a lot, then I might as well be one as far as some users are concerned

ManishEarth

5:29 AM

@tpg2114 huh right

user54412

@tpg2114 just think floating penguins - actually that video was just shown to me by an engineering student at Georgia Tech (that is where you are, right? I think I remember a comment to that effect)

tpg2114

Yes, I'm at GT

David Zaslavsky

@tpg2114 IMO those users (or their opinions of which you speak) are not worth caring about.

tpg2114

@DavidZaslavsky I would agree except it creates a toxic atmosphere that hurts everybody. Somebody coming in and reading things in isolation or out of context may not see the pattern

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 exactly

I withdrew from Wikipedia because I saw such things (in context)

And the reason I support our be-nice policy is because I would have turned away from this site if I saw offensive stuff

David Zaslavsky

5:39 AM

@tpg2114 That's true. But I suppose I have a slightly different perspective because it falls to me (as a moderator) to call those users out on their statements. When I'm doing this without support from the community, it's not worth it.

So I wind up just ignoring things more than I probably should.

tpg2114

And that's why I'm trying to call them out on it too

To make it clear that it's not a mods-against-community thing, and that all "serious" people don't feel the same way

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 Be careful you don't get burned out or put off doing that

tpg2114

@ManishEarth On the plus side, if I do get burned out or something, I'm not all that active around here that I would be missed if I took a break :)

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 But who will answer all our fluid mech questions?

tpg2114

So many are either homework or engineering... I think I put myself out of a job by posting on meta!

David Zaslavsky

5:43 AM

@tpg2114 thanks :-)

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 Yeah, thanks about that btw

@tpg2114 close close close close close use the shiny new close reasons

tpg2114

I'm much better at working on policy than I am physics/engineering. I should have been a lawyer

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 We need physics lawyers

"A Einstein vs N Bohr, on the existence of God and his mythical dice"

Or something like that

David Zaslavsky

0

Q: a simple question on fluids mechanics

If I have a pipe, a viscous flow in the pipe with initial velocity towards $x$ direction $(1,0,0),$ assume the pipe is placed towards $x$ direction as well. now we have flow on inlet with constant velocity $(1,0,0)$ as well, and also flow on the outlet. Assume flow is incompressible , viscous, no...

numerical-methods fluid-dynamics

ManishEarth

:P

David Zaslavsky

5:46 AM

@tpg2114 that made me think of you :-P

tpg2114

I need to subscribe to fluid-dynamics on every SE site... SO even has a tag for it

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 You can do that

tpg2114

I tried to get my own Fluid Dynamics.SE but that didn't work out

Got shut down by the man! It's a conspiracy!

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 stackexchange.com/filters. You can create your own filter there

The man?

tpg2114

The Man

"The Man" is a slang phrase that may refer to the government or to some other authority in a position of power. In addition to this derogatory connotation, it may also serve as a term of respect and praise. The phrase "the Man is keeping me down" is commonly used to describe oppression. The phrase "stick it to the Man" encourages resistance to authority, and essentially means "fight back" or "resist", either openly or via sabotage. History In the Southern U.S. states, the phrase came to be applied to any man or any group in a position of authority, or to authority in the abstract. From...

ManishEarth

5:48 AM

@tpg2114 Ah.

tpg2114

Okay, I'm impressed there was actually a Wikipedia article on that one

David Zaslavsky

Honestly though, I would think fluid dynamics is already covered by Physics, Computational Science, and (maybe a little bit) Mathematics

ManishEarth

I thought you meant that I had closed it (I do close dupes on a51, though I don't recall that particular one)

Because a lot of people think my username is Man Is Hearth

tpg2114

No, it got killed for inactivity

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky Yeah, but it's nice to have a coherent community

tpg2114

5:49 AM

@DavidZaslavsky It is covered by all those. And Cross Validated to a certain extent

ManishEarth

Why do you need stats for fluids?

tpg2114

@ManishEarth Exactly. I mean, physics is kind of covered by math, if you believe what xkcd says...

ManishEarth

Oh, experiments

tpg2114

Turbulence is 100% statistics

Even the theory

David Zaslavsky

There can't be a coherent community for everything though. We'd have thousands upon thousands of SE sites.

ManishEarth

5:50 AM

@DavidZaslavsky yep

David Zaslavsky

Well I guess there could be but it'd be a mess

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky cf reddit

There's a reddit for everything

David Zaslavsky

Sure, but most subreddits aren't worth caring about

tpg2114

Where it gets tricky though is if I want to ask a question that is about how to combine experimental data and simulation data together or something. Cause it's all of those at once, and yet off topic on all of them

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 :P The major diff between phys/chem/math is the way logic is used. Someone used to math may find physical reasoning illogical (and in the opposite direction, physicists may find mathematical reasoning unnecessarily long). Same goes for chem

David Zaslavsky

5:51 AM

The good ones are limited in number and pretty disjoint in scope

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky yeah

tpg2114

It's math, and stats, and engineering, and computational science...

David Zaslavsky

@tpg2114 I would think that should be on topic for us here

ManishEarth

26

Q: Asking on Multiple Sites: "Soft-Migration"

Many of the newer sites have a certain degree of overlap. With the creation of Chem.SE, I noticed quite a few questions on Physics.SE which could have benefited from the chem community and vice versa. There also are a few that could benefit from bio.SE.. Now these questions don't warrant a migr...

feature-request migration site-crossover

Physics Meta

3

Q: Good list, bad list

The Stack Exchange model does not work well for "big list" questions, and these are banned network-wide for good reason. However, many of the other stack exchange sites allow or even encourage list questions that do not fall under the "big list" category. On the other hand, Physics.SE currently ...

discussion

tpg2114

6:01 AM

I guess since meta got quiet all of a sudden, I should go to sleep...

Nobody wants to argue with me anymore :)

Have a good night guys

ManishEarth

@tpg2114 'night

Physics Meta

7:18 AM

0

Q: Is linking to open-source sites for books a violation of copyright here?

I am currently editing the string-theory tag wiki, and am adding some links to good books, which are downloadable from open-source resources, like http://gen.lib.rus.ec/. However, is this considered a violation of copyright/bla-bla-bla policy? Is it allowed?

discussion support tags policy

Physics Meta

12:09 PM

-1

Q: How about a better 404 page?

The current 404 page is very plain. I know there was a question for a better 404 page: Ideas for 404/error/captcha pages, take 2. However, it was not implemented in the end. Maybe, it was forgotten, or something. Should we try to have a better 404 page? Some suggestions: If it was removed by ...

feature-request design

ManishEarth

12:27 PM

@tpg2114 Oh, btw, if you're getting incessant pings or unwanted discussion beneath your meta answer, sorry about that. :)

tpg2114

2:11 PM

@ManishEarth Nah, waking up to 15+ pings is totally normal!

Crazy Buddy

@ManishEarth: I've started writing in an FB group ;-)

(as my blog dream has gone now) :/

ManishEarth

2:34 PM

@tpg2114 In my case it actually is that way :P We get pings on new meta posts, mod messages, and then there are like a billion chat pings. Some from here, some(most) from TL, some from the Physics mod room, and some from Positronium (chem mod room)

@CrazyBuddy Why no blog?

Crazy Buddy

@ManishEarth I had thought of creating my blog while I was on vacation..!

Sadly, I had no (very diffuse) internet connection (remote village ya know) :/

ManishEarth

I had thought of posting to mine -- there were some book/author reviews that I meant to write and a couple of mile-long posts

You can still start it in-sem

Crazy Buddy

@ManishEarth I've to look through..! BTW, there aren't much people who know the definition of blog in my colg..!

ManishEarth

@CrazyBuddy hah!

Crazy Buddy

But, I have some nice dream about my blog..!

On the other side, I started an open group to share well-written posts, images & videos, and websites too...

That won't be of much use to you... But, because a few of my friends requested to do so...

So, I'm currently spending a few mins writing something over there ;-)

Anonymous

3:53 PM

:1034318 Mathematics, by definition, is the generalisation of Physics .

user1504

5:31 PM

@Dimension10 only physicists think so

Physics Meta

3

Q: Question self-destruction: why don't experts ask more questions?

I've been kicking around this site for a little while now and I've realized that I'm very rarely even tempted to post a question. I'm an astronomy grad student with a background in physics, so naturally as I go about my life and work questions relevant to physics occur to me; it's one of my main ...

discussion questions

Physics Meta

7:37 PM

0

Q: Adding picture, what is framing?

In order to improve this post, I was trying to add this picture(it doesn't load here either) to it ; but what I get is:"For security reasons, framing is not allowed; click OK to remove the frames." And then I'm redirected to another page with a big Oops in it. What does this mean? I thought it m...

support editing suggested-edits

David Zaslavsky

8:13 PM

hey @Ali

so...

Ali

Hi

David Zaslavsky

First of all, SE is not an academic organization. So the section on the NS web page about academic licensing doesn't apply.

The relevant section for text would be "Web Reuse/Linking"

Ali

I see, I thought it was.

David Zaslavsky

For images, there is a section entitled "Graphics/Photos/Illustrations"

It says that you will need to find the original author/photographer and ask them for permission, because NS does not hold copyright on the images presented on their website

ManishEarth

Looks like the GIF I used and the GIF Ali is trying to upload are different formats

His is GIF87a, the nuclear force one is GIF89a, and the other one doesn't give me a format O_0

Ali

8:16 PM

@DavidZaslavsky you're right.

I will try and contact the license holder.

David Zaslavsky

@Ali Another (important!) thing to bear in mind is that, even if the academic clause ("Academic organisations may reproduce our content free of charge provided New Scientist is clearly credited as the source. No permission is required for this.") did apply to the image, you still wouldn't be allowed to upload it because that clause is a statement of a license that is not compatible with the Creative Commons license. It doesn't allow unlimited redistribution.

Ali

@ManishEarth can you try and produce another GIF87a image, and then try uploading it?

ManishEarth

@Ali I have no clue how to do that T_T

Ali

@DavidZaslavsky I didn't have to check these things before, so these are news to me. I'm learning.

David Zaslavsky

It's best if you can get the copyright holder (probably the original photographer) to explicitly agree to license the image to you under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 license. Unless they explicitly agree to exactly that license, you might not be able to upload the picture.

@Ali that's good :-) Copyright is complicated.

BTW I should give the standard disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer, so I can't guarantee the correctness of any of what I'm saying.

Ali

8:20 PM

:D

David Zaslavsky

@ManishEarth Let me give that a try

ManishEarth

We need a big, animated gif in GIF87a

I can create big gifs if necessary

Ali

@ManishEarth Doesn't GIMP have any options for that?

ManishEarth

@Ali Probably

But never worked with GIMP and animated gifs

Ali

Can you give me a large gif (~7Mb)image?

ManishEarth

8:23 PM

Alright, I'll try

David Zaslavsky

It's tricky, many programs don't even have the option to create GIF87a anymore

Ali

@ManishEarth How did you check the gif formats?

ManishEarth

@Ali head or cat or more

Ali

I see

I haven't found anything useful in GIMP yet.

ManishEarth

Trying to create a huge gif without much effort, probably will blow up my comp :P

David Zaslavsky

8:34 PM

Yeah, I checked that, it doesn't seem to have an option to export GIF87a

ManishEarth

I have no clue what the output format is

I'm using convert to create animated gifs

Whatever it is, the huge animation is 89a

David Zaslavsky

ImageMagick doesn't seem to be able to create animated GIF87a, I already tried

I have a Python script that will do it if I can just remember how to use it

oh wait, nope

ManishEarth

Gotcha

@DavidZaslavsky @Ali manishearth.anapnea.net/anim.gif, 7.3M, but it's 89a

David Zaslavsky

Well, I have other stuff to do... I'd say leave this to SE for now, but if they need a GIF87a for testing maybe I'll write a program to do the conversion

Ali

It's extremely late(or equivalently extremely early ~1am) here. I have to go to bed.

ManishEarth

8:45 PM

sure

Ali

Good night.

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky @Ali The format doesn't matter, the size does

Ali

Now that's something.

user54412

@DavidZaslavsky While the 3.0 version of the license is mentioned for data dumps in the terms of service, users' uploaded content is under v 2.5, for what it's worth

user54412

(I have no idea if there's any difference)

ManishEarth

8:48 PM

@ChrisWhite jisclegal.ac.uk/ManageContent/ViewDetail/ID/2036/…

Ali

@ChrisWhite Are they different?

ManishEarth

The basic gist is the same

David Zaslavsky

Ooh, that's sketchy because at the bottom of each page it says content is licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0

I'm not sure you can accept content under CC 2.5 and relicense it under 3.0

Anyway, I was going to say: GIF87a doesn't actually support animation.

Mostafa

@Ali Take a look at dgrin.com/archive/index.php/t-1964.html . The 4th answer by cmr164. He says just change the first line from 89 to 87 with an editor!

David Zaslavsky

So yeah, I was thinking, the image @Ali was trying to upload might be a GIF89a that was just somehow "labeled" as GIF87a in the file header

Ali

8:52 PM

@Mostafa :D that's easier than it looked, thanks

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky That shouldn't be the issue though, I created a true blue 89a image and it still gave the framing error

David Zaslavsky

@ManishEarth Yeah, I didn't think it would be, but it's still important to eliminate that as a possibility

Good experimental procedure and all

ManishEarth

Yep

Now, to calculate the least squares error

Ali

Good night everyone!

ManishEarth

'night! :)

ManishEarth

9:03 PM

I'm surprised that the list question thing and the suspension thing went over without much drama. And that we're actually on the path of getting consensus on the list thing. ^.^

user54412

9:17 PM

@tpg2114 making me look bad with another great answer I see...

tpg2114

@ChrisWhite I do my best :)

@ManishEarth It turns out that if multiple people contribute, and totally ignore the trolling and just discuss facts, things can get done. Who knew?

3

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky Copying from Wikipedia without attribution. OK/ not OK?

David Zaslavsky

9:33 PM

@Gugg Not ok

Copying from anywhere without attribution is not OK

Gugg

I'll flag.

tpg2114

Or you could edit in an attribution if you know the source

Then it's acceptable since Wikipedia is CC licensed content

David Zaslavsky

@tpg2114 true

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky Problem is that is not a complete copy, but adapted to the question, But no words are original. And, my guess, 95% are identical and identically ordered.

tpg2114

That might still be okay, CC allows changing of work in part or entirety so long as the original work is attributed

I'm not an expert on the licensing but I think so long as the original version is cited, any changes are okay and become new content

@Gugg It looks like Wikipedia uses the ShareAlike form of the license:

Wikipedia:Text of Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License

__NOTOC__ __NOEDITSECTION__ =License= THE WORK (AS DEFINED BELOW) IS PROVIDED UNDER THE TERMS OF THIS CREATIVE COMMONS PUBLIC LICENSE ("CCPL" OR "LICENSE"). THE WORK IS PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT AND/OR OTHER APPLICABLE LAW. ANY USE OF THE WORK OTHER THAN AS AUTHORIZED UNDER THIS LICENSE OR COPYRIGHT LAW IS PROHIBITED. BY EXERCISING ANY RIGHTS TO THE WORK PROVIDED HERE, YOU ACCEPT AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE. TO THE EXTENT THIS LICENSE MAY BE CONSIDERED TO BE A CONTRACT, THE LICENSOR GRANTS YOU THE RIGHTS CONTAINED HERE IN CONSIDERATION OF YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF SU...

David Zaslavsky

9:42 PM

@tpg2114 Yeah, that's correct as far as I know

tpg2114

Which in summary means derivative works can be created provided it keeps a compatible license (which SE does) and the original source is attributed

Gugg

Problem is that the adaptation perhaps makes it a wrong answer, and saying something like "Adapted from Wikipedia", might suggest an authoritative source.

tpg2114

Correctness and licensing are two different issues unfortunately

Gugg

A quick reader might read "Adapted from Wikipedia" and think "OK, good enough for me."

David Zaslavsky

@Gugg The other thing is that adapting something in a way that misrepresents the original source could be construed as plagiarism, which is not OK (but that's our policy, not an issue of copyright)

tpg2114

9:44 PM

But what should happen is 1) Edit in the attribution and say that the work was derived from the original; 2) Leave a comment indicating the answer is incorrect; 3) Downvote

That's my view at least... Or you could flag it as copyrighted material, but that requires take down notices and not just a flag, if my understanding of that process is correct

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky My flag is waiting for review. Read copied = adapted.

David Zaslavsky

@Gugg That's not something you should flag for. Just edit.

user54412

"flapack.error: failed in converting 3rd argument `ab' of flapack.zgbsv to C/Fortran array" -- even when coding in Python, Fortran still haunts me

tpg2114

@ChrisWhite Fortran isn't so bad

F77 and earlier is a disaster and should be erased from the memory of anybody who is within 30 feet of a computer

But F90 onwards is great. Until F2003, only because compilers still really suck at implementing it correctly. And F2008 didn't add much that was useful anyway

user54412

F77: the reason I'm calling a function with the insane name of zgbsv

tpg2114

9:55 PM

Lapack and blas... I like them cause they work

I dislike them because they are F77

But hey, something like banded_linear_solver_complex is too long to type, even without punchcards :)

David Zaslavsky

@tpg2114 That is correct. Basically, we don't (and can't) act on flags where the stated reason is copyright infringement.

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky Should I understand that as a legal precaution against SE being sued for not dealing with copyright infringements and the like? (What do you mean, you can't?)

David Zaslavsky

@Gugg As in, we've been instructed by SE not to handle copyright infringement though flags because doing so would remove their eligibility for the DMCA safe harbor provision

Gugg

10:21 PM

@DavidZaslavsky I've solved this issue, but note that according to my reading of (Wikipedia on) that piece of legislation, you might only get "away" with it, if you do not even do a quick check on the claim in the flag. I guess you were instructed to ignore it completely. Then you may be fine. Anyway, thanks, I learned a bit.

David Zaslavsky

@Gugg Well, technically we could ignore the reason stated in the flag and just examine the post for any issues, find an instance of plagiarism, and deal with that. But I prefer not to.

Gugg

I wondered earlier, but relatedly, if you write a piece of Wikipedia, and then post the same text on SE, must you attribute? :)

tpg2114

I don't think so, because you as author retain the copyright

Gugg

@tpg2114 So, effectively, since both use usernames, an outsider cannot judge whether something on SE would be plagiarising on Wikipedia.

David Zaslavsky

If you wrote it in the first place you only have to attribute it to yourself. But it's often a good idea to say "also posted to Wikipedia" or some such thing

user54412

10:32 PM

@tpg2114 I don't know about wikipedia, but with SE you retain authorship, but not really copyright

tpg2114

@ChrisWhite I disagree... CC says "I license this work to SE (or Wikipedia)"

David Zaslavsky

Actually you still retain copyright with SE.

tpg2114

Not "I transfer all ownership of this work"

user54412

@DavidZaslavsky @tpg2114 what is your definition of "copyright"?

tpg2114

And the CC license says the original author can give others a waiver on attribution, which means that you could waive your own need to attribute if you cross-post

The author just can't be more restrictive than the license

David Zaslavsky

10:35 PM

Implicitly, you "retain copyright" if you distribute a work but continue to be considered the "copyright holder" as defined in title 17 of the USC

Here, read this: copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html :-P

user54412

but "author who must be attributed" \neq "copyright holder" I thought - maybe I'm wrong

David Zaslavsky

@ChrisWhite Well, technically the Creative Commons license allows the distributor (the person or entity sharing the work) to specify the required manner of attribution. So you have to follow the attribution requirements set forth by the copyright holder.

In the case of accessing a post on Stack Exchange, those requirements are specified in the ToS (or they should be at least): you have to link to the original post on SE, include the author's SE username, and link that username to the author's profile on SE.

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky What if the "required manner of attribution" isn't specified, as almost always (well, I don't know, often)?

David Zaslavsky

@Gugg IMO that is a hole in the license which should be fixed.... but I don't know what the legal requirements are.

user54412

right - but subject to adhering to that requirement, the licensee (SE in this case) obtains all other aspects of copyright, including the fact that the author cannot just freely distribute the material as though they were the sole owners of it

David Zaslavsky

10:40 PM

It might be the case that if the attribution requirements are not stated, you cannot know whether you are complying with them, and thus you cannot distribute the work. But again, I'm not sure.

user54412

not that I think SE will ever hunt down users for rewriting their posts elsewhere

David Zaslavsky

@ChrisWhite No, that's not true. The author is legally permitted to redistribute or do whatever they want with the material they wrote.

No "aspects of copyright" are transferred from you to SE when you submit a post

user54412

@DavidZaslavsky how so? the license clearly makes SE own the content, subject to them not restricting its access to others

David Zaslavsky

The only (well, the main) thing the author is not permitted to do is change their mind about licensing the content to SE. In other words, they can't take back their submission and say "SE, you're not allowed to distribute this anymore."

@ChrisWhite Where does it say that?

user54412

part of the deal with CC in particular is the author can continue to distribute perhaps, but they are doing so with the licensee's (irrevocable) permission - that basically means I give SE full rights in return for them sharing some (nearly all) of those back with me

David Zaslavsky

10:44 PM

Nooo, that's not how CC works at all

It's the other way around, the licensee (SE) can continue to distribute with the copyright holder's (i.e. the author's) irrevocable permission

user54412

10:54 PM

mmm i guess i see that in the fine print - but still you don't own terribly much after giving stuff out under CC

user54412

in particular, the whole "right to exclude" that is Chapter 1 in any generic text on property law - basically no one has it anymore, which is I guess the idea of CC anyway - let there be no copyright

David Zaslavsky

@ChrisWhite No less than you owned before. Within the six rights which are protected by copyright law, the only thing you give up when licensing a work using CC is the ability to revoke the license. (I think. There could be a couple other minor things.)

@ChrisWhite I suppose so. CC effectively uses copyright law to establish a framework which emulates a lack of copyright in many respects.

But it does preserve the right to attribution. That's the key difference between CC licenses and total lack of copyright (a.k.a. public domain).

Well, that and the requirement that further redistribution take place under the same license.

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky You should have a flag button for "plagiarism/copyright concern". And then throw everything marked as such in the trash automatically and unread. :) Somehow, I feel, SE's policy, or the legislation, wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

David Zaslavsky

(same or compatible? I forget)

tpg2114

Compatible

user54412

10:59 PM

"‘‘(B)(i) Subject to clause (ii), a notification from a copy-
right owner or from a person authorized to act on behalf
of the copyright owner that fails to comply substantially
with the provisions of subparagraph (A) shall not be con-
sidered under paragraph (1)(A) in determining whether a
service provider has actual knowledge or is aware of facts
or circumstances from which infringing activity is appar-
ent."

user54412

^ wow broken formatting

user54412

anyway, @Gugg that's from this pdf

David Zaslavsky

@Gugg Plagiarism and copyright are two entirely different issues. We handle the first, not the second.

@tpg2114 actually from what I'm reading it says it has to be the same, or a later version of the same license. Section 4 of CC-BY-SA.

tpg2114

The summary on Wikipedia says "same or compatible" but that is just the summary, I didn't go into the text

David Zaslavsky

Maybe they're using "compatible" to mean later versions of the same license

tpg2114

11:02 PM

Could be

user54412

@Gugg based on it and the referenced paragraphs, it looks like only the copyright holder or an explicitly authorized agent can take formal DMCA measures through formal channels, and that, sans these, the web host is free from liability (since they don't have "actual knowledge" or are not aware of "facts or circumstances")

user54412

but still better to be safe than sorry

Gugg

@DavidZaslavsky Plagiarism and copyright don't overlap? Is it always one or the other or nothing?

David Zaslavsky

@ChrisWhite Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

@Gugg They're two different things, which often occur at the same time, but not always.

tpg2114

Plagiarism is more general... Taking an idea and rewording it completely but not attributing the original idea is plagiarism but not copyright infringement

user54412

11:05 PM

@Gugg plagiarism is using another's material, otherwise lawfully or not, without attribution; copyright infringement is using another's material, attributed or not, without permission

3

tpg2114

Which also means I could ask you if I could copy-paste something you wrote verbatim and not attribute you. You can agree and I do it. This isn't copyright infringement, but it is plagiarism

Because I'm passing off your idea as my own, even though it's with your permission

Gugg

Which also means I could ask you if I could copy-paste something you wrote verbatim and not attribute you. You can agree and I do it. This isn't copyright infringement, but it is plagiarism

tpg2114

Flagged -- expect a suspension for plagiarism ;)

David Zaslavsky

lol

Gugg

OK, see you in a month or so!

David Zaslavsky

11:14 PM

@Gugg (and others) actually I've been thinking about this: it probably is a good idea to flag instances of plagiarism, so the moderators can keep track of it. You should still edit it to add attribution yourself, but also cast a flag just to let us know. The custom message can just be "plagiarism in earlier revision" or something like that.

(cont.) So we (mods) won't necessarily have to do anything to the post - I mean, you shouldn't leave it to us to make the edit - but if we notice many plagiarism flags on a single user's posts, we might have to have a talk with them.

Sorry I gave you the opposite answer earlier.

tpg2114

@DavidZaslavsky I agree and was thinking about that earlier. Repeat offenders should be talked to

The difference is flagging for plagiarism rather than copyright issues

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