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11:00 AM
so we are reluctant to pass on our valuable knowledge too quickly
 
@2017, I am still in learning phase .. Not much
 
@Kenshin Now that is utterly false. Stop trolling :P
 
@2017, But in real life. I help as much as I can.
 
@Ramanujan Everybody on the planet is in learning phase.
 
@2017, I am even ready to help others with their problems at midnight.
Any one when asks us, they have certain expectations from us
helping others doesn't make us smaller. Or inferior.
 
11:03 AM
I do help occasionally but I have more important work to do than solve homework.
As I said, most people are busy.
 
@2017, whenever I ask questions on PSE, they are either closed or downvoted.
 
2017 is right, time is a precious resource
and solving homework problems for others ranks low in priority for most
 
@Kenshin, but one can if he has time.
 
but why would one have time/
surely there are a million better things to do?
 
Desire matters
 
user228700
11:06 AM
Oh, have we moved on from the topic of jobs? I was about to suggest this video to those who haven't watched:
 
wats dat
 
That depends upon one's perception
 
@Kaumudi.H ty for the video :D
 
user228700
No problemo.
 
11:07 AM
I'm looking forward to AI taking over jobs
wow Baxter is awesome
 
AI is already taking over jobs
 
not enough
 
When's the last time you talked to a human being on a company's phone number
 
that's not AI
not in my country anyway, it's more like "press 1 for this, press 2 for that "
 
Actual AI is harder because it's mostly shit
 
11:09 AM
what do you mean?
neural networks look promising
 
Yeah but they are mostly shit
 
@Slereah I spoke with actual humans at my phone company just days ago
 
High rates of error usually
@ACuriousMind Lucky man
 
high rates of error just like people
 
@Ramanujan That's because you don't put in sufficient effort to ask your questions. No one will answer easily google-able questions for you.
 
11:10 AM
neural networks are good at doing what humans do
 
Humans are usually much better than AI for a lot of applications
 
currently yes
but I think in say 20 years things will be diffeerent
 
there is a lot of money going into AI now
 
Most humans won't see a stain on the wall and think it's a human face
 
11:11 AM
@ACuriousMind humans are easily fooled too
 
@Ramanujan Why should i answer this question (physics.stackexchange.com/questions/311320/…) ? You haven't shown any effort!! Just posted an image.
 
@Kenshin Read the examples. These networks recognize images with high confidence that are just random noise.
 
@ACuriousMind it's about training
 
Humans can be fooled, but not into thinking random noise is a cat
 
they are trained to see faces
of course they see faces everywhere
step 1 of neural network is to learn faces
 
11:12 AM
I mean
 
then learn other objects
 
I guess a few humans see Jesus on a piece of toast
 
@Kenshin No, this is about more general image recognition. Please read what I linked.
 
But that's not too common
 
once it knows many many objects, it will learn to categorize properly
 
11:14 AM
The point is that the networks use an entirely different set of criteria than humans for recognizing images. Where humans are able to recognize the "whole", these networks demonstrably become trained to recognize small, specific patterns that distinguished the object from everything else in the training set.
 
To be fair
There are also simple tricks to fool humans
They are called
Optical illusions
 
@ACuriousMind I disagree, the neural networks also learn "the whole"
 
Humans use a lot of context to recognize objects
 
each node represents a "concept" and then higher level nodes are then built on previous nodes
each "node" can represent a "whole" if you like, that is then perceived by the next layer
 
depends on the architecture of your perceptron
 
11:15 AM
@Kenshin I'm not going to discuss this with you unless you demonstrate you've read what I linked. It clearly shows that contemporary image recognition networks do not recognize the whole.
 
the human brain is thought to work in a similar ay
@ACuriousMind I've read what you linked
I've also read that the researchers in the future may try to encorporate a "none of the above" classification but so far it has been too difficult for them
"Thus, they effectively have a way to communicate “none of the above”. It would be interesting to try training them with a specific “none of the above” class, but that would require assembling a set of pictures to put in that class that we are sure do not belong in one of the other 1000 classes. We’d like to do that, but assembling these images will take some time. Stay tuned."
 
Now, I'm not saying that networks don't recognize anything. The point is that their perception works entirely different from that of humans.
 
@ACuriousMind I'm not convinced
 
Well what they need to do is to do a training method where the object is classified as "Part of category A" and "Not part of category B, C, D, ..."
But that sounds really expensive
Training a neural net is long enough
 
@ACuriousMind From the article:Does this optical illusion phenomenon happen to animals or humans?
Yes. Humans are susceptible to optical illusions. Such illusions are designed to hack the way our brains see the world. Similarly, these images hack the way neural networks see the world.
 
11:17 AM
@Slereah Yeah, I'm pretty sure that if that was a viable fix it would long have been deployed
@Kenshin Yeah. But optical illusions that fool us don't fool the networks, and vice versa. So they're not "good at what humans do". We both recognize images, but in entirely different ways.
 
Well the problem is that if you have $n$ categories, since neural nets are like $O(n^2)$ or something
It's gonna be really really long
 
@ACuriousMind yes but we were trained differently to the networks. The networks are trained with pictures and trained to identify specific classes of objects. Humans learn to idnetify millions and millions of object classes and learn from a wide vareity of stimuli, not carefully selected images.
 
Optical illusions play on the fact that human vision relies on assumptions on how 3D object works
As well as light, color, etc
 
Philosophy session again :P This time of the day is special :D
 
Without those assumptions you can't appropriately treat visual input
 
11:20 AM
So I'm not convinced it is the structure of the neural network itself that makes it behave differently to humans, but rather how these particular neural networks were created
As Slereash states, the "nodes" in the brain are evolved to already have concepts for light, colour etc.
 
@Kenshin Possible, but you have no evidence either way.
 
while the neural network doesn't necessarily look for these particular concepts (although can be hard coded to dos o)
@ACuriousMind well there is a large body of evidence that suggests the brain is structured like a neural network (especially the visual cortex()
 
The only evidence in attendance is that the networks recognize images differently from humans.
Why they do so is a matter of debate, but it means you cannot say that the networks are "good at what humans do".
 
of course I can
the networks are already good at recognising faces
just like humans
 
Did you know
There's a little cluster of neurons specifically dedicated to recognizing faces
 
11:24 AM
yes
 
Since it's a very important function
 
yep
correct this is something we are born with
 
It can also recognize faces upside down, because they are very good neurons
 
We are prepared for this even before our first stimuli
 
If you see a face with upside down features, though
Your brain gets slightly confused
 
11:25 AM
Well, not all of us. Face blindness is a thing.
 
yea
 
@Slereah There are the wonderful images where you think the upside-down face is smiling, but it's actually horrifying when viewed in the correct orientation
 
I think the big thing that differentiates us from current neural networks for image recognition is we can tell "That looks like a face but it's not a face"
 
yes because we've had more experience
well a "richer" experience anyway
 
Welp, gotta go and hear a talk with the wonderful title "Chiral differential operators and the curved beta-gamma system" instead of continuing this.
 
11:28 AM
ok laterz
 
Well you have to remember that neural nets as they are today usually don't have the same structure as the human brain
since they are not designed that way
For instance most neural nets are perceptrons
 
agreed
 
they are purely feed forward neurons
can't form any loops
which is what some people believe forms the short term memory
 
interesting
don't worry I solve it
give me 10 years or os
 
@Kenshin 10 years w.r.t what ? Time is relative :P
 
11:34 AM
I'll tell you when I've solved it :p
 
That was a short talk? @ACuriousMind
 
Hehe :D
@Kenshin Which state/city do you live in (in Australia) ?
 
-1
Q: Probability of the regular collapse of the twin tower in 911

poissonActually, there is another building which collapsed in 911. It is the No.7 building, with 47 floors, not hit by an airplane. All the three buildings collapsed in a very regular way. Frankly speaking, I find this weird. Look at the remains of the old buildings around the world. Generally, some...

 
@Slereah That's actually an interesting question!
I'm not sure if there are any papers on it though
 
I think the subtext is that Bush did 9/11
 
11:49 AM
Oh. Not the conspiracy theories again!!!
Ok here's a paper of some sort: 911scholars.org/…
 
what if bush really did 9/11 though?
 
@Slereah Still one party was AI.
ACM is AI.
6 hours ago, by 2017
@Mostafa
Yes. Same as what I told you.
 
@DanielSank Yes that looks right to me and is called the Ito isometry.
 
Let's continue this discussion later at night. @2017
 
12:05 PM
Haag and Reichenbach are here
Still no penrose though
 
12:34 PM
darn it..."Obligatory skcd" @ACuriousMind, could you change that to "Obligatory xkcd"?
 
12:58 PM
Obligatory ass kcd
 
1:11 PM
hello..Is there anyone who can help me with a geometry explanation?
 
@ACuriousMind Sounds like something an AI would say...
 
@Ramanujan yes
 
Why the short wave length limit of x-ray produced is independent of nature of target but the characteristic spectra depends on its nature ? any1 ?
Also can i extend the concept of Bragg's diffraction condition to nanoscale level ? ..
 
2:16 PM
@JohnRennie
 
3:04 PM
@ACuriousMind Ha!
 
3:14 PM
4
Q: Easy to perform quantitative experiments at home

user1583209What are some easy to perform physics experiments that can be done at home (with not too much special equipment) and that allow to actually measure/plot data and draw conclusions from it? My son is pretty interested in everything physics and we've done just about all possible (qualitative) exper...

 
I think so but that question is a good one, in my opinion.
 
@ACuriousMind sorry, that's mean
 
@Qmechanic i suggest ou watch the videos by Arvind Gupta .. he does interesting stuffs through home stuffs!!
 
@BAYMAX : Link?
 
youtube.com/watch?v=KnCqR2yUXoU ..........its TED talk...
 
3:23 PM
@BAYMAX You should comment on that question with a link to the video :)
 
ok
 
@BAYMAX what do the 10 dots signify?
 
Hii
@Kenshin and for chemistry
 
^ this is too good to upvote
 
3:46 PM
Ohh..Just to separate things i used that .. :?)
@0celo7
 
@BAYMAX It is called ellipsis :) BTW the standard number of dots is 3!
 
oh..@2017 previously anonymous .. he he
thanks
 
Yes. I had to change my name as someone with the same name "Anonymous" joined the Maths chat room :'D.
 
oh...@2017 previously anonymous ... he he
thanks (no of dots should be 3)
Yeah
0
Q: X-ray ; characteristic spectra; Bragg's diffraction

BAYMAXWhy the short wavelength limit of x-ray produced is independent of nature of target but the characteristic spectra depend on its nature? Can I extend the concept of Bragg's diffraction condition to nanoscale level?

 
@0celo7 ?
 
3:56 PM
@BAYMAX What do you mean by nanoscale level?
Bragg's diffraction is used to measure crystal structures at the nanoscale level.
 
in Mathematics, 2 hours ago, by BAYMAX
I think when $d$ is order of nanometers ?
 
The atoms are already in that scale.
 
@heather Mhhh...I think I'll live with that mark of shame :P
 

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