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12:00 AM
@vzn But it's a false premise!
@vzn This isn't a pride thing. I dislike this "typical response" because it damages science as a productive field.
 
vzn
@DanielSank anybody who is only motivated by money maybe shouldnt be in very many fields at all eh? except say, finance?
 
@santiago Thank you for saying this :-)
 
In any case, I think the objective behind a good definition is that it should make obvious things true, and I think that this is completely in line with mathematical thinking on this stuff (I have some examples in mind that are due to Grothendieck, who was renowned for really thinking through his definitions, and giving really good ones when he did...
Some things he came up with haven't even been defined because nobody has been able to properly axiomatize something that fulfills the view that he had for it (which emphasizes again my point about how it's all about what should be true, not about finding new surprises, which is more of a bonus IMO)
 
@vzn Dude, you're contorting things. People want to know that they have prospects. If you tell a young person "scientists don't make money", that's plain discouraging. Someone being discouraged by that does not mean they're a money grubbing person.
 
vzn
@DanielSank science is one of the most important endeavors in human existence! thats exactly my point. the culture generally fails to recognize that in many ways, pay being only one of them. my own opinion is at odds with so called "collective wisdom" (which sometimes equates with stupidity). see the weird nuance of my position? :P
 
12:02 AM
@DanielSank I suppose we agree but I would put considerably more down to luck than you: I agree that you can make a career out of anything if you just work hard enough. This though is not enough to become "successful" (obviously depends on the definition of success, thus the quotes both here and earlier). Look at musicians, or academics for that matter: The top (with some metric) probably don't work harder than many of the ones "merely" making a career out of it but the rewards are very different.
 
@Danu I agree. My point is just that some intuitive cases may fail and that's ok and teaches you things.
 
I, for one, would take pride in pursuing a degree that does not optimize my economic prospects in life (not saying that it doesn't) because it reflects my passion for the subject.
 
@DanielSank but I will add a caveat - it is not and never has been the goal to make money, but the developments I have helped make have been profitable. I do get my fair share of people stating that I am either not a scientist and 'less of a scientist' - I know that nonsense to be rubbish
 
@DanielSank Cool. I guess there is a more important discussion for you to attend to now ;)
 
12:03 AM
@alarge A lot of artists fail because they refuse to take ownership of the business side of art.
 
vzn
@DanielSank there are many scientists here who have said they are not making great money. its ok to do stuff not merely for the money. just dont get into science thinking it pays well in general!
 
@Danu Dude, I lost track of how many conversations I'm holding now.
 
lol @0celo7
 
The money-making side of what I do is a 'side effect'
 
@DanielSank I love the replying system here: Keeps everything organized.
 
12:04 AM
@Danu You actually feel more pride if you don't make money?
That seems unnecessary.
 
@DanielSank I was kinda joking. But in some sense, I do take some kind of weird pride in having pretty much purely intrinsic motivation
 
@Danu Well, yeah! Good on you.
 
I don't really need to improve the world, get money, etc
 
Great.
 
Science and entrepeneurship can go hand in hand
 
12:05 AM
@Danu That's a choice though.
That doesn't mean "science doesn't make money"
 
Definitely not ^^
 
@Danu It's a great video!
 
vzn
@santiago are you an entrepreneur? what kind of "instrumentation" do you work in?
 
^ I want to know this too.
 
He builds sex toys, of course
 
vzn
12:07 AM
ofc there are many great/ famous/ legendary examples of highly successful scientific entrepreneurs, but my feeling is that its a major uphill battle. & agreed that is one way for there to be big $$$ in science. but its also lottery-like.
 
(please don't be offended)
 
@Danu not quite yet, that's stage 2
 
vzn
@Danu (ofc am offended!) gives new meaning to the word "tool" lol
 
but in reality, my instrumentation focus is optical and spectrographic instruments
in that I design, sometimes build, calibrate and then use the instruments
 
Good night e'rryone!
 
12:12 AM
@santiago Sounds fun!
@Danu G'night, e'rrydanu.
 
@Danu good night
@DanielSank yup, it's fun, it provides a good income and it's Science
 
@0celo7 :( my new fan is louder than my old stock fan.
 
hehe
get some nice headphones
 
interestingly, I also do research in theoretical physics - am published in both theoretical and experimental aspects
 
Interestingly the cpu fan speed is about 2000rpm, which is not considered high, apparently.
 
12:18 AM
@NeuroFuzzy For regular use or idling?
 
@alarge idling
I went for a $30 Zalman instead of a $70 Noctua. Serves me right!
 
tsk tsk
have to say that it was an interesting debate to read in the recent history of this chat
 
@NeuroFuzzy Well if your build is good, you should be able to just basically turn off the cpu fan anyway when idling. I haven't done a build in years, so not sure of the current state of things.
 
my new laptop turns off the fan when doing nothing strenuous
@alarge Is streaming 1080p video intensive?
It kills my battery.
Probably a stupid question
 
this is truly an 'interesting' chat room
 
12:24 AM
@0celo7 Decoding at least should have hardware support and not be very intensive. Encoding though is probably considerably more intensive. Anyway, don't know, and depends.
 
1:17 AM
@Danu somewhat relevant: i.4cdn.org/sci/1438281986607.jpg
 
user54412
@DanielSank Yes, most people (that I tend to find myself talking to) overestimate the median wealth level. On the other hand, I suspect the median hourly earnings are not as different between higher-education-required jobs and other jobs.
 
user54412
That is, a lot of the people I know making good money in science spend a lot of time earning it. And to be honest it's hard to imagine how so many people are making so little given that there exists a minimum wage -- they aren't working 60-80 hours per week.
 
@ACuriousMind Considering how misleading that first video was, this is not that far off.
 
1:40 AM
@ChrisWhite yup 50-80 hour weeks for me - I love it though
 
2:01 AM
@ACuriousMind LOL the first quest in the Oblivion Fighters Guild is totally a reference to Morrowind!
 
streaming?
 
One moment
I think so
whoops a crash
 
rip stream
 
back
@KyleKanos sorry
no clue what's happening
PC is working again at least
 
Stop streaming at 1080p
 
2:10 AM
I'm not...am I?
 
I have no clue
 
still nothing...
I'll try something else to test
 
@ChrisWhite To be totally frank, when scientists tell me they work 80 hours a week I tend to not believe them unless it's a young faculty member.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:46 AM
@ACuriousMind up late...or up early? :P
 
This room had a porn discussion without me :(
 
you missed a great Oblivion stream
two cold blood murders, some console fun and getting kicked out of the fighters guild
also trying and failing to kill the DB speaker
 
@0celo7 late, I'm gonna to bed when I arrive at home
 
3:49 AM
you should!
 
You never had to drink with Germans till 5am, did you?
 
no
 
I'm barely functional
 
did you drink till 5am when you were in middle school?
@ACuriousMind star wars KOTR 2 Sith Lords is on sale
any good?
Oh fuck yes BL2 is on sale for $8.80
GAME OF THE YEAR EDITION
 
@0celo7 Nah, my best memories are from high school, when we could experiment legally
I have no idea what BL2 is, but do get KOTOR
 
3:54 AM
Borderlands 2
@ACuriousMind 100% guaranteed to be good?
 
I love borderlands <3
 
yeah it's in my cart
 
Kotor is a different beast, kinda like Morrowind
 
@ACuriousMind you should look through the Steam sale and give me some recommendations
@ACuriousMind are the Metro games good?
 
@0celo7 I don't like them, but they are said to be good
 
4:07 AM
why don't you like them
 
I'll return to you tomorrow when I've sobered up
 
k
 
 
3 hours later…
7:04 AM
Has anyone read Whittaker's 'A treatise on Analytical Dynamics'?
 
 
1 hour later…
8:15 AM
@DavidZ Is there a procedure for getting changes into the help center? I'd like to notify people via the mathjax page that you can use \renewecommand to make complicated TeX a lot easier to type / edit / read.
 
 
1 hour later…
Huy
9:15 AM
Why do we have $R_{ijkl} = g_{ik} g_{jl} - g_{il} g_{jk}$ in $S^n$? I have as an example the computation of sectional curvature of $S^n$ and it starts with this formula, but I've never seen it before. Is this a special case of the more general formula for $R_{ijk}^l$ expressed by Christoffel symbols which simplifies on $S^n$?
 
9:40 AM
It's because S^n is maximally symmetric
If a manifold is maximally symmetric the Riemann tensor simplifies to such an expression, as you can find out if you apply the Killing vectors
 
Huy
@Slereah: I'm not very experienced with Killing vectors and also don't know what the definition of a maximally symmetric manifold is (and what the property implies). Is there a more elementary way to see it?
 
Maximally symmetric means that it has the most symmetries the manifold can have
It is symmetric by translations and rotations in all directions
 
10:24 AM
@0celo7 Hah, nice!
@santiago You know it!
 
@Danu what exactly is the story with experimental physics and this site?
I presume it is on topic
 
@santiago It comes up less, and gets less (up)votes. Historically (up to 6 months ago or so) there was a reasonably strong tendency for experimental physics-related questions to get closed as "engineering", but I think this has improved now. @DanielSank probably still feels that he's being undervalued, judging by his expectations about people's opinions of experimental science.
And maybe he's right. But I think that it's a lot better than before, and no huge improvements can easily be made.
 
hmmm interesting, so experimental questions were downvoted and closed?
 
One big problem, though, is that we have very few experimentalists, so a lot of experimental questions go unanswered.
@santiago Not downvoted, but closed... yeah quite often.
Then we discussed it on meta, and mostly everybody agreed that this was not good practice and so it changed.
28
Q: Experimental Physics & Engineering

Kyle KanosI know that most of us are "paper theorists," but I think we need to remember that experimental physics is physics too! We have several tags for experimental physics (with tag excerpts): experimental-technology Use this tag for questions pertaining to the limits, management, and operation ...

 
were/are there those who still think of experimental science as 'less;?
 
10:32 AM
I don't think any "serious user" would say so openly, but maybe subconsciously?
4
Q: What is engineering and what is experimental design?

tpg2114So we have a close reason for engineering questions because selection of materials for building that ultralight in the garage are off-topic. But where is the line drawn between engineering and experimental design? The question I'm thinking of specifically is: Pressure applied to flat plate With...

-6
Q: Is this about Physics, or just theoretical armchair physics?

Dirk BruereBecause when it comes to real practical advice on specialist experimental techniques I may as well be talking to myself. It seems to be singularly useless.

 
so, considerable discussion
at least the issue is not remotely ignored
 
14
Q: Are engineering questions appropriate for this site?

Chris WhiteOften we get questions of the form "How to build this particular device?" or "Why was this design implemented in such-and-such product?" Are these questions appropriate for Physics Stackexchange?

Yeah, considerable discussion indeed ;)
 
I thought I had a new physics result, but so it turns out it already existed!
Damn you hubris
 
hubris strikes again!
 
The only theorem that I successfully found is that whatever physics thing you did, someone did it decades earlier
 
10:44 AM
never reall had that problem
 
Well I assume it's more of a problem in theoretical physics
Plus I am out of the university's circuit, so that doesn't help
 
@Slereah How come you're doing physics research from an "outside position"?
 
Well, due to financial reason, I couldn't do a PhD
But I would like to do one eventually
And I figured that if I published a paper, it might help my chances to get in
 
:( Okay
 
I'd rather not do programming for the rest of my life
 
10:59 AM
Fluid flow animation:
http://haxiomic.github.io/GPU-Fluid-Experiments/html5/
 
Hm, let's see if one of my physics book arrived in the mail
 
11:16 AM
still nuffin
Do you think the history stackexchange would mind if I asked a cooking question
I want to try a recipe that is the oldest recipe in the world
Some cake thing from an ancient egyptian tomb
But they only specify to use a bowl
And I wonder if there is a standard egyptian bowl size
 
11:39 AM
@Slereah beer?
@ACuriousMind or Einstein...we may never know i.imgur.com/bnez2u3.jpg
 
Nah
Some sweets
honey and flour, mostly
 
Euro Truck Sim 2 is on sale...
 
Perfect time to not buy it
 
Why does KOTR 2 require 4GB RAM...it's super old.
 
12:37 PM
@DanielSank should it actually be \newcommand cause iirc \renewcommand gives an error if the command is not defined a priori ?
but the idea is really good
eg \dv{d}{x} is a lot more readable than \frac{\matrhm d f}{\mathrm d x}
 
12:54 PM
Real men use f_{,x}
 
@gonenc what
shouldn't that be \dv{f}{x}
 
@0celo7 it'd be better indeed to write \dv f x
@Slereah I hate reading that , ; notation but I also like using it when I need to shorten stuff
it is also easier to type , ; but as I've said for me harder to read the equation
 
Harder to read?
Just wait till you read something that uses , ; : and $\vert$
 
@0celo7 what do : and | mean in this context?
never seen these before
 
@gonenc spinorial covariant derivative and covariant derivative wrt. background metric
 
1:07 PM
@0celo7 do they have special notations like $\nabla_\mu$ or $\partial/\partial x$
ie can you use something other than : or |
 
probably
just stick a twiddle and bar on $\nabla$
 
@gonenc It's even more fun when you have like 5 or 6 different definition of the derivative
I have seen books with , ; and :
 
@0celo7 do you prefer ; over $\nabla$?
 
@gonenc depends
if using a semicolon makes stuff fit on a single line, yes
 
@0celo7 then I do too but in general I'd rather see it explicitly :)
I use them if there is more than the first derivative too
like $\nabla_\mu \nabla_\nu$
cause then it gets too cluttered up
 
1:13 PM
well using $\nabla_\mu$ is heresy anyway
so this discussion is pointless
and ; is also heresy
, is like uber heresy
 
What is not heresy then
how do you write covariant derivatives
 
$\nabla$
or $\nabla_a$
In wald's notation
 
I tend to write latin components too
But mostly because I'm too lazy to type \mu
 
anything else is coordinate heresy
 
So anyway
How are interacting QFTs even well defined
If they use distribution-valued operators
Aren't those ill-defined in the non-linear case
 
1:27 PM
@Slereah they're not
 
Well I meant someone who isn't you
You QM hating man
 
@Slereah they'll tell you the same thing
 
Well yes, but in details I mean
And is that problem also in Haag's QFT
Or Algebraic QFT
Or the other one that I don't remember
Also can you use Colombeaux algebras to solve it
 
@Slereah if you ask me, all of QM is ill-defined anyway ;P
 
Non-relativistic QM is pretty well defined
 
1:37 PM
about as well defined as unicorns, i.e. not
 
oh you
Wavefunctions are just tensors really :p
And so are operators
 
tensors?
yeah, tensors in Hilbert space
 
You can totally do QM in Einstein notation
 
doesnt make it well defined
 
Yeah but it is.
 
1:56 PM
@Slereah heh me too :D
 
Sometimes I even write T² instead of the proper T_ab T^ab!
 

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