Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

those which have instruments are all discouraged, at leat according to grand Ayatullah Bahjat that I know, and beside I know some other great scholars who do not know all sorts as discouraged

Al Ummat مجاهد

@owari I see

owari

8:10 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov waiting to hearing from you!

Al Ummat مجاهد

there is a Hadith with us in regards to poetry

sunnah.com/adab/36/11

owari

If a music is a common one for Haram gatherings and parties then that is inevitably Haram.

Al Ummat مجاهد

I see

so what does shia Fiqh say about listening to Music to be calm?

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari 21 And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all such as handle the harp and pipe.

owari

@AlUmmatمجاهد thanks for that. Once I read somewhere that all the poems are Makrouh but only those that have some advice or things like that... and you see in Quran what Allah says about the poetry!

DhoweedYaAgov

8:13 PM

i thought this was the first person to play musical instruments

mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0104.htm

owari

@AlUmmatمجاهد Not haram but discouraged at least according to Ayatullah Bahjat, and maybe Mubah according to many others

Al Ummat مجاهد

@owari there is also this talking about some poetry having wisdom

sunnah.com/bukhari/78/171

DhoweedYaAgov

it talks about kayeen and hoval and who kayeen killed him

and then talks about the generations later

Al Ummat مجاهد

@owari I see

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov thanks for abstracting the text, it's way too long!

DhoweedYaAgov

8:14 PM

np

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov where does it say who does that?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@revo did you get all that?

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari does what

owari

instrumental music

DhoweedYaAgov

it says yovol is the father of the harp and pipe

instruments

owari

8:18 PM

Oh sorry, maybe Qabil did whistling for the first time, I cannot remember his whistling was the first music or he really used an instrument for playing music at his father's grave

DhoweedYaAgov

idk bout your islamic sources, but thats what i remembered from the torah. that yovol was the creator of harp and pipe music

owari

Qabil is far before him.

DhoweedYaAgov

and the instruments themselves

owari

Let me check my sources, maybe I can find it

DhoweedYaAgov

yovol was 6 generations after koyeen

owari

8:22 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov I see

DhoweedYaAgov

that chapter i posted brings down the generations

revo

there are men in Islam called مرجع تقلید who u can refer to and ask ur religius questions, their common point about musics is this:
"each music that is for pleasure parties and drinking is considered haraam (eaither classic or non-classic) and the others are halal." (آيت الله خامنه اي )

@AlUmmatمجاهد ok ?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@revo ok

I don't really agree

but ok

revo

u know about مرجع تقلید ?

Al Ummat مجاهد

@revo not really, I know what تقلید is

but I don't think I know what مرجع تقلید is

owari

8:30 PM

@revo that's the final conclusion @revo, even I have heard the latest Fatwas of Imam Khamenei brings about a more limited boundary for the musics that are Haram!

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari what is your nationality?

owari

Iran

DhoweedYaAgov

you living there now?

owari

yes! and its 1 in the midnight!

DhoweedYaAgov

lol

revo

8:31 PM

@owari i'm iraninan too ;)

DhoweedYaAgov

did i ask you if you been to the grave of prophet mordaHhai and prophetess asteir?

owari

@revo good for me ;)

@DhoweedYaAgov I have gone there but the door were close, maybe it was saturday or sunday

that's in the city of Hamedan

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari i saw videos of it. youtube.com/watch?v=h9oMFn0arYQ

yea

i would like to go there

revo

@owari some people here really get confused what Islam is in real

owari

and a man was sitting at the door praying for the holiday prayer from a book

DhoweedYaAgov

8:34 PM

jewish man?

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov then you should first come here ;)

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari i dont think iran will let me in and if it does i dont think people will like me there

owari

@revo they think we don't know Islam as we might think they don't know, so جادلوهم بالتی هی احسن!

@DhoweedYaAgov people here are only angry against zionists not jews or christians

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari i dont support secular zionism but i do support jews living in israel for that is our land

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov I doubt!

DhoweedYaAgov

8:36 PM

doubt what

owari

how can you prove where is your father's land, we have even proofs that Abraham was not living in Palestine until he traveled there from babel

and Palestine had its own popularity at the time

he was guest

DhoweedYaAgov

we also have proof its called the torah. it says he was born in ur kasdeem

owari

and jews were also guest at their first entrance

even if that's true then all Urshaleem was his?

DhoweedYaAgov

there is no such thing as palestine. its israel. palestine was given by romans when they took over israel and made fun of jews

owari

Isreal is the name of the prophet Jacob not a land

DhoweedYaAgov

8:38 PM

it was called palestina because that is what romans called peeleeshteem who were the jewish enemies

it is the land of YaAgob Ovinu

that is why we are called Banei yISROEL

children of israel

owari

Yaghub was one of its citizens

DhoweedYaAgov

living in israel

the land was given to him and his children by ALlah

as a promise made with Avarohom Ovinu

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov according to Quran only one city was proposed to them but ther refused to fight the Kuffar there so they became homeless

DhoweedYaAgov

wrong they did fight the 7 kofereem nations

revo

@owari they needs words from quran or hadith only, and they do not like refer to their mind and brain as it's "Hidden Hojjat"

DhoweedYaAgov

8:40 PM

only 1 left

they became our workers and we made peace with them

but this was bad because Allah said to remove all kofareem from israel and we didnt listen we left one

owari

@revo intellect is a source of Fiqh in Shia not in Sunni, they use comparison instead which is Haram (in Fiqh) according to Shia

DhoweedYaAgov

that is why we had trouble when bobal came to invade israel that kofar tribe betrayed the jews and went with the babylonians

that is how we became homeless. that one tribe which we didnt expell joined forces with the invading army and kicked uso ut

then Allah had RahHmanoth on us and brought us back

after 70 years

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov well, maybe we don't agree upon all of that, the first Jew country was at the time of Talut, after him David and next Solomon, then the kingdom was destroyed for people leaving the successor of Solomon (Asif) alone

DhoweedYaAgov

it is all written in our books. we dont hide anything

our history is rich

the land was promised to Avarohom Ovinu's descendents.

and again to yisShog Ovinu's descendents

owari

Did Allah promissed to you what was for others?

DhoweedYaAgov

8:44 PM

and then to YaAgob Ovinu's descendents

and yaAgob Ovinu had 12 sons who became the 12tribes of israel or like we call it banei yisroel

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov yes we agree upon that

DhoweedYaAgov

and when Mosha Rabbeinu recieved the tOrah, Allah again repeats his promise that he will take out banei yisroel from misSroyim/egypt and will bring them to the promised land which he promised to their forefathers Avarohom yisShog wa YaAgob

and Mosha Rabbeinu brought them to the yardein river and he passed away on the mountain looking at israel. and his student Yahoshu3h took over as leader of banei yisroel

he crossed the river with the banei yisroel to israel and waged war on the 7kofer nations like Allah said

he said either leave now with peace or we have war

no one wanted to leave except one nation

owari

even if all these were true, that I doubt, were these the justification for making the current residents homeless, by killing them and limitting them and injuring them and then introducing them like they are terrorists and etc?

DhoweedYaAgov

and another nation made peace pact with Yahoshu3h

@owari they werent homeless, that wasnt their land to begin with. they came from their homelands into israel

they had their own kingdom's to go to

the heetee people are from north of israel near turkey

what were they doing living in israel?

they took over when the jews left to egypt

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov all those hundreds of years that Isreaelit were in Egypt (From Joseph to Moses) Palestine was empty?

DhoweedYaAgov

8:50 PM

no it was taken over by the 7 kofer nations

owari

At the time of Yaghub palestine was hosting only a man and his family?

DhoweedYaAgov

it was divded into 7 small territories

no it was hosting other people living there

from other nations

owari

The ones Solomon fight against them?

DhoweedYaAgov

Shlomo HaMalach is many years after YaAgob ovinu

owari

yes but Isrealite fighting against Kuffar happened at his time, if my memory can help

DhoweedYaAgov

8:52 PM

no

the jews fought throughout their entire history with kofareem

the wars began when Mosha Rabbeinu passed away and Yahoshu3h crossed over the river

to make israel holy again from the kofereem

owari

Even if you fight with a Kuffar all that they have will be yours and the Kuffar will be your slaves? What if the new massenger comes and some kuffar believe in him but you don't and then you be the Kuffar not them?

DhoweedYaAgov

the laws of war are brought down. if you want to learn the laws of war then go ahead

each war is different

Allah told Shoul HaMalach not to take anything from the Omolek when he defeated them

he should burn everything they have and kill all of them

owari

Who are Omolek?

DhoweedYaAgov

he saved their goats because the people didnt want to waste the goats

owari

Disobeying Allah?

DhoweedYaAgov

8:55 PM

and Allah punished him for not listening to the command of Allah of burning and killing everything

because they were not pure

no tahara

owari

Who is Shoul HaMalach and who are Omolek?

DhoweedYaAgov

Omoleik was the first nation that came to fight with Mosha Rabbeinu and the jews when they came out of egypt

they didnt care for G-d that is why they came to kil us

and we defeated them with Allah's mercy

and he commanded us that throughout your life when you see anyone from the tribe of Omolek you should kill them

owari

and who is Shoul HaMalach?

DhoweedYaAgov

talut i think is what you call him in arabic

owari

Oh, he fought Kuffar but long after Moses, he was at the time of David

DhoweedYaAgov

8:58 PM

yes

but Omolek was at the time of Mosha Rabbeinu already

they waged war on us

when we were in the desert

people were afraid of banei yisroel. they came out hungry tired and weak from egypt

owari

So the first wars against Kuffar happened at Talut's time? if so we agree upon that with you

DhoweedYaAgov

and omolek came to kill them before they became to powerful

no

the first wars against kofareem was in the time of Yahoshu3h

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov No Allah fed them from sky until they got tired of a same food everyday

DhoweedYaAgov

bible-history.com/map-israel-joshua/…

yes Allah fed them after

but the war happened almost immediately after banei yisroel crossed the yam suf/red sea

those 7 nations in bold red are the kofereem which Yahoshu3h had to take out of israel

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov According to Islam there happened no war at the time, albeit I'm not a scholar, Jews saw some tribes that were worshipping idols and they asked Moses to make one for them or to show them Allah in eyes, and Samery made one in the shape of a cow that had some voices, made out of gold and ..., there was no war until Allah ordered them to enter a city of Kuffar with strong men, Jews were afraid and asked Moses to go and fight with them alone, so Allah prevented them from entering that city

and they were lost in the desert for 40 years if I am not wrong and Moses died in those years

DhoweedYaAgov

9:05 PM

that is before Yahoshu3h

not during the time of Shoul HaMalach

when banei yisroel came out of egypt kofereem came out with them

and they converted

but really they were fake converts

and when Mosha Rabbeinu went ontop of the mountain to get the Torah, he said he will be back in 40days, the non jews that converted told the jews that Mosha Rabbeinu is not coming back, and convinced them that they should go back to their old ways in egypt

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov you mean Pharaoh and his men? They were all killed by Allah in the sea

DhoweedYaAgov

following a cow

@owari no

@owari there were non jews who came out with the jews

who were also slaves under egypt

different nation

egypt was the biggest empire at that time therefore they had many people under them as slaves and workers

anyway, so Aharon HaKohen, Mosha Rabbeinu's brother, tried to stop them but in the end he couldnt and he took the blame for them making the cow even though he didnt build it

because he was supposed to be the leader while Mosha Rabbeinu was gone

when Mosha Rabbeinu was on the mountain, Allah told him to look down and see how much they love Allah by making a cow. and when Mosha Rabbeinu went down with the Torah he threw it and it broke in pieces

he saw what they were doing, dancing and singing around the golden cow

he asked his brother, Aharon HaKohen, what happend, and he said he couldnt stop them.

he told them all to tear their clothes and go into mourning because they have made a terrible sin

he went back up to the mountain, Har Sinai, and cried before Allah. and Allah said He will destroy all of banei yisroel and will make the new banei yisroel come from Mosha Rabbeinu's children

and Mosha Rabbeinu said no, if Allah destroys Banei Yisroel, let Allah destroy Mosha Rabbeinu too.

Therefore Allah said go back down with the Torah again, but this time lead them 40years in the desert until these generations who worshipped the cow die

and Allah killed i think around 3500 people that day by fire because they were the ones who started the whole worshipping and building of the cow

the others were in the desert 40years, until their children grew up that didnt know how to worship the cow but only worshipped Allah alone

so the banei yisroel who entered israel were pure with clean thoughts

@owari got it?

it is all in the Torah

owari

I'm reading

What we know is a little bit different

DhoweedYaAgov

what is different

owari

first, If I am not wrong according to Islamic Ahadeeth only those who believed in Moses went out with Moses, as is also clear from Quran, but some pretended to believe or were weak in their beliefs, and these were not few in number.

DhoweedYaAgov

9:20 PM

right 1/5th or 1/8th of the jews died in egypt

i forgot the number

owari

next, Moses told to his people that he will leave them to Tur Sina for 30 days, there Allah extended his meeting with ten holy days (the days Muslims go to Hajj and fasting is very much encouraged), at those days some Jews told the others he will not come back to you, but his Lord is this Cow and Moses himself has forgotten this! People were perplexed. Haron tried to stop them but was given the warning that he will be killed if do not stop, so he was also perplexed what to do with those people

people were saying Harun that they will worship the cow until Moses come back and explain what they should do

Moses was at the last times of his meeting with Allah that he was asked what he think about his people? He said they are waiting for him to return and bring them Torah, but Allah let him know what they have done in his absence

Moses came back angrily to his people, asked Harun why he didn't stop them, he said he couldn't and they were almost killing him, Moses said why you didn't came after me to let me know of that? Harun answered because I was afraid you may think I have increased the discrepancy between them

Moses then burned the cow and teared it up in pieces and pour them in the sea

then Samery (the one who was the origin to this Fitnah) was asked how and why he did so? He said I saw from the footprint of the angel Gabriel what the others couldn't see, I took from it and used it in producing the cow so that the sculpture had a voice! THen invited the others to worship it ...

Moses instead of killing him let him go and said to him you will be punished by an illness that no one would get close to you or touch you, and in the hereafter you will be punished more

then the people asked Moses to show them Allah, he said it is not possible but they insisted, so he chose 40 men among all and took them with himself to Tur Sina

then asked Allah what they wanted, Allah inspired to Moses if you can see this light (or the mountain can bear this light, my memory couldn't help me) you will see me either, then a light was emitted to a mountain and it was exploded in powders, the dust now we see floating in the air being half of its matter which never came back to the Earth after that. Moses fall inconcious. Then Allah killed all those people with Moses. Moses cried and said please, this is of course an exam otherwise

you could kill all of us once we were with our people. then asked Allah if you leave them dead people will blame me that I have killed them, and Allah brought all again to life. Then while the mountain was kep on top of their head got a covenant from them not to deny anything that Allah asked them to declare. Then Allah narrates that they didn't go by that covenant and hid what they were not allowed to hide.

That's what I can remember by now, some parts are also in Quran and the other details are in Shia Ahadeeth.

DhoweedYaAgov

9:37 PM

that is in torah

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov, I checked my resources, in a Persian history book of the prophets, it is stated that Qabil played instrumental musics for the first time at his father's grave, and the way he was playing music is from Satan and is forbidden

@DhoweedYaAgov but there were a little difference between this and what you said

DhoweedYaAgov

and those who didnt follow what Allah had said, were punished either by Allah Himself or Allah told Mosha Rabbeinu to take them to court

the part about the 40 people is not in the Torah and would make no sense in the Torah because Allah doesnt have a body so you cant see Him

har Sinai hovering is not in the Torah i think that is in jewish hadeeth

them dying is also jewish hadeeth

bringing them to life is hadeeth

most things you bring is hadeeth based on Torah

not in the Torah itself

owari

ok I understand

what's Hadeeth in Jewish point of view?

DhoweedYaAgov

everything is in jewis books what you said except for the 40men

hadeeth is called meedrash in hebrew

Midrash

Midrash (; plural midrashim) is a Hebrew term for the body of homiletic stories told by Jewish rabbinic sages to explain passages in the Bible. Midrash is a method of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal, or moral teachings. It fills in gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at. The purpose of midrash was to resolve problems in the interpretation of difficult passages of the text of the Hebrew Bible, using Rabbinic principles of hermeneutics and philology to align them with the religi...

owari

Is it any reliable?

DhoweedYaAgov

9:42 PM

some are reliable others are not just like islamic hadeeths

owari

I see

@AlUmmatمجاهد this is the persian text for the Hadeeth about Qabil and music

امام صادق (ع) مى‏فرمايند: بعد از مرگ آدم (ع) ابليس و قابيل به شماتت او پرداختند و به لوده گرى و نواختن آهنگ و موسيقى مشغول گشتند و هر گونه نواختن موسيقى و ضرب كه بر اين منوال باشد نيز از جانب ابليس است‏

Al Ummat مجاهد

@owari thanks :)

owari

you are welcome ;)

DhoweedYaAgov

@owari it seems to me that a lot of shia hadeeths come from talmud

The Imam (a.s.) remained silent for a while and then said, “(Held) With us, there is Al-Jifr (the parchment). Do you know what Al-Jifr is?” I then asked, “What is Al-Jifr ?” The Imams (a.s.) said, “It is a container made of leather that contains knowledge of the prophets and the executors of their wills and the knowledge of the scholars of the past from the Israelites.” (Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, Vol. 1, Chapter 40, p. 635)

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov they come from Ahlul Bayt peace be upon them, they knew all the previous heavenly books and could speak in all the languages, but they know the truth independently and know what is wrong and what is right in the other books, they are "those firmly grounded in knowledge" according to Quran.

@DhoweedYaAgov yes, that's true although I am not a scholar as well!

but note that their knowledge not their stories. For example Kimiya (Alchemistry) is among them if I am not wrong and Jesus had that science as well if I am not mistaken

DhoweedYaAgov

9:49 PM

Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Saeed al Uqdah attributes to al-Mufadhal ibn Umar saying that Abu Abdullah [as] said: “When the Imam Mahdi makes a call (for prayer), he will supplicate to God using God's Hebrew name and then his three hundred thirteen friends (followers) will rush to him...” (AnNumani, Al-Ghayba , p.326)

Muhammad ibn Yahya attributes to Muhammad ibn Sinan- Abaan saying: “I heard Abu Abdullah [as] (one of Shia's 12 Imams) saying: "The World will not fade away unless a person from us appears who will rule according to the ruling (law) of the family of David.”

Ali ibn Ibrahim attributes to Abi Ubaidah saying: “When the Qaem (Imam Mahdi) of the household of the Prophet appears, he will rule according to the ruling (law) of David and Solomon.”

owari

His sermon is already available (again if my memory helps me!), he will praise Allah while laying on Ka'bah, then call for his men and the 313 men come to him from Earth and sky

DhoweedYaAgov

but he will follow the jewish laws

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov He will discuss the Jews based on Torah, the Christians based on Goespel, with different sects of Muslims based on Quran and ...

DhoweedYaAgov

he will follow the laws of Doweedh HaMalach

owari

But he is the 12th of the twelve Imams of Islam, so he is a Islamic ruler, although Jesus will come down close to his arise time,

DhoweedYaAgov

9:53 PM

Ahmad ibn Muhammad attributes to Ammar AsSaabati saying: “I asked Abu Abdullah [as] (one of Shia's 12 Imams): "On what will you (the 12 Imams) rule if you are made the rulers." He replied: "By the ruling of God and the ruling (law) of David. And if we are confronted by a situation which we cannot solve, Gabriel (Ruh al Quds - Holy Spirit) will reveal it to us.”

owari

@DhoweedYaAgov No that's a wrong understading, he will judge like David did, without asking for witnesses as he knows the truth from the first

DhoweedYaAgov

Muhammad ibn Ahmad attributes to Jaeed al Hamdani asking Ali ibn Al-Hussein [as] (one of Shia's 12 Imams): “I asked him by which law will you rule?” Ali ibn al-Hussein [as]: said: “By the ruling (law) of David, and if there is something which we are unaware of, Gabriel (Ruh al Quds- Holy Spirit) will reveal it to us.”

Ahmad ibn Mahran attributes to Ammar AsSaabati saying: “I asked Abu Abdullah [as] (one of Shia's 12 Imams): ...‘By how will you rule?’ Abu Abdullah [as] replied: ‘By the rule of God, and by the ruling (law) of David

owari

yes I know all of them, they are mistranslated

the rule of God means Islamic rules and the way David was judging is without asking for witnesses

DhoweedYaAgov

david did ask for witnesses

that is the law of the torah

owari

ruling and judging in Arabic both are from the same root حکم

@DhoweedYaAgov not always, here it is meant a special judging which is them known as David's judgment as he did that, if it was Torah's way then all the other prophets also were doing so, nothing specific about David

DhoweedYaAgov

9:57 PM

Doweedh HaMalach used witnesses is need be in his cases

also watch this

►

owari

I have no access to youtube here!

DhoweedYaAgov

:/

owari

I don't remember what was that specific judgment though, sorry for that

Transcript for