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Noah
Noah
5:32 PM
@goldPseudo @ansari @AlUmmatمجاهد Is it okay to work on software that deals with images or image based software. I was recently offered this job where I will work on developing a mobile client that processes facebook albums. I was told that photography is Haram in Islam and I wonder if it would be okay for me to work there.
I am so confused, your help is greatly appreciated.
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
← 2 messages moved from Islam.SE's blog chatroom
@Noah "Photography is haram" is a point of dispute. Some scholars consider it permissible, some do not.
Unless you know that this software will predominantly be used for haram purposes, no reason to avoid working on it.
I (personally) am not in the "photography is haram" camp, so i see no problems.
 
Noah
Noah
6:38 PM
Salam
Okay, thank you. @goldPseudo
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
wa 'alaykum assalaam
 
Noah
Noah
How are you doing?
@goldPseudo "haram purposes"? The software will retrieve images from Facebook. You know travel albums, profile images and stuff like that.
It's basically social software working with Facebook data.
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
doesn't sound like haram purposes to me.
 
Noah
Noah
Okay. Thanks
One more thing.
What's spread betting?
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
@Noah it's a form of gambling. don't know much about it; gambling holds little interest to me.
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
6:53 PM
sholom
 
Noah
Noah
@goldPseudo Okay. But it's different from spreads in forex market?
@DhoweedYaAgov Hello
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
@Noah hi
 
Noah
Noah
@DhoweedYaAgov How are you doing>
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
@Noah Boruch HaShem i am doing fine
and you
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
@Noah spreads in the forex is just the difference between the buy and sell prices; spread betting, to the best of my knowledge, is gambling based on the values of the spreads.
 
Noah
Noah
6:57 PM
"Boruch HaShem" means?
I am fine, thank God.
@DhoweedYaAgov
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
Blessed G-d
 
Noah
Noah
Are you a jew? @DhoweedYaAgov
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
yes
Boruch HaShem
 
Noah
Noah
Can i ask something?
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
sure
 
Noah
Noah
7:08 PM
I was just reading a question on judaism.SE and someone asked whether he can be friends with someonne on FB. So how does this relate to judaism?
I am just curious.
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
can i see the post?
 
Noah
Noah
17
A: Rejecting others' friend requests on Facebook

msh210Avos says: יהושע בן פרחיה אומר עשה לך רב וקנה לך חבר והוי דן את כל האדם לכף זכות Y'hoshua ben Prachya says: Make yourself much and buy yourself a friend; and be judging everyone toward the scalepan of merit. "Buy yourself a friend" means that you should only be friends with someone on ...

 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
"purim torah" posts aren't to be taken seriously.
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
lol
pureem torah
:D:D:D
 
Noah
Noah
What does that mean?
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
7:11 PM
its a joke
Purim Torah
Purim Torah are humorous and satirical writings customarily read on the Jewish holiday of Purim. Purim Torah can be simple or elaborate, and require no qualifications to write, other than a good sense of humor. Purim Torah authors, often displaying an amazing grasp of Jewish knowledge, playfully use some of the far-fetched methods of Talmudic logic and Biblical exegesis in order to reach absurd conclusions. Parodies of Jewish life and the world have been found as early as the 12th century. Ashkenazi culture has a variation of the Purim Torah that is acted out, often with elaborate costu...
 
Noah
Noah
Omm. @DhoweedYaAgov Thanks. @goldPseudo Thanks
 
DhoweedYaAgov
DhoweedYaAgov
np
 
 
1 hour later…
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
8:25 PM
@Noah images that have pictures of things that has a soul in it like human or animal is haram
and this is clear in the Hadith in Bukari
and those who take pictures are the ones who will be punished the most in the hearafter
Pictures that have bodies in it and those pictures that are drawn with ones hands is haram, but scholars have differed in regards to pictures that are taken by camera
for more information see this
and this
so just to make it clear, the point of dispute happens when pictures/immages are taken by camera
@Noah and furthermore the point of dispute with images taken by camera only comes with pictures that don't have haram things in it
for example things with women in it is haram of course
so those images taken by the camera that doesn't have haram things nor things which invite to haram the dispute happens
and as I mentioned above all images which contain things that hve a soul like a person or animal is haram
and may Allah forgive me for any mistakes
and i pray I have made this clear
 
Noah
Noah
9:01 PM
@AlUmmatمجاهد Thank you for your answer. What do you mean by women? You women in general?
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@Noah I Mean women not dressed properly
immodest women
and men too
I mean images taken by camera that call to haram things are haram
 
Noah
Noah
Okay- We just develop a tool, we cannot control how people use it, can we?
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@Noah we can't control in general, furthermore we make a knife people can use it for good and bad
I believe there is a question on the site regarding this
@Noah I guess what you mean by develop, is develop software
I cannot say on that
I mean it depends on what you are developing
 
Noah
Noah
But that's different. This software will mainly be used for images. It pulls out data from social networkign websites like FB, Twitter, and more.
Yeah, it's software.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@Noah I cannot really say
different people have and share different images
 
Noah
Noah
9:08 PM
That's true.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
from what I have seen from my experience on Google+ all the images are Haram
inviting to things that are haram
and are bad for you to look at
I am talking mostly about profile images
when people add you you see them
but still they are images
but really I cannot say this in regards to google+, because the number of images that I have seen are like very small like maybe 5-10
so I do not know the overall rate of what kinds of images people share
I know I have seen images of like certain places and things like what they call (wonders of this earth) and mysterious things and so on
and I am probably just rambling now
I am mainly trying to say just what I already said
"different people have and share different images"
 
Noah
Noah
9:26 PM
True
@AlUmmatمجاهد
What about writing an article about, say, uploading images to Google+?
Like teaching the world how to use the service and stuff.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@Noah please note I am not a Mufti nor am I a scholar
 
Noah
Noah
I know. But you know stuff that I dont
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
furthermore, is an article needed about uploading images to google +? I mean it is kind of easy to figure
furthermore this would go under the " different people have and share different images " meaning if you tell them how to upload a picture/image then those that upload haram ones would have learned from the article
while there can be those people who upload good pictures
I cannot really say anything on this
I mean there is the aspect of "intention" to consider
meaning you intention in writing an article
but then there is the aspect of "how would the majority of the people on the internet use it"
I would like to suggest you find a scholar and ask him this question
 
Noah
Noah
@AlUmmatمجاهد It''s easy for you. Wouldnt be easy for an old dude who is using GOogle+ for the first time. But in any event, this was just an example.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
or perhaps someone in here has more knowledge and can answer
 
Noah
Noah
9:37 PM
The more I study, the more difficult things get.
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
@Noah Then I would go so far as to say you're either studying the wrong things, or understanding them incorrectly; Muslims (and Islam) are supposed to make things easy on the people, not more difficult.
there are many who make the religion unnecessarily hard on themselves, and lose their path as a result.
 
Noah
Noah
@goldPseudo I think you are right.
Like @AlUmmatمجاهد was talking about women. Not modestly dressed and stuff.
But here in the states none of them is modestly dressed
I mean ladies walk in shorts and so do men.
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
so?
 
Noah
Noah
So does it mean looking at them is haram?
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@Noah yes
I mean you are excused for the first look
but after that you must turn away
furthermore, yes Islam is simple and does not want difficulty
 
Noah
Noah
9:50 PM
I mean you live with them, they are your freinds. you ride the same bus.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
but Allah doesn't put anything that is too hard for a soul to handle. And what we are obligated to do may have some difficulties on some people, but we should still do them, and this is part of what Jihadul Akbar/Kubra is, because Allah doesn't tell us to do and don't do something for no reason
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
"Tell the believing men to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do."
 
Noah
Noah
Can I hug a woman?
Like I have female freinds(not girl freinds) they hug me all the time.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@Noah you can hug you sister, your mother and all those of your family, but those outside of your family you cannot look or touch them
because Allah said stay away from zina
in basic words you can hug those women whom you cannot marry
 
Noah
Noah
What if they hug me?
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
9:52 PM
if hugging doesn't risk leading to zina, i don't see why not.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
but it might
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
zina is haram. everything leading up to it is better to avoid, but not (necessarily) haram in its own right.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
and we are forbidden to come close to zina, in whatever way, and the roads leading to it
as is clear in Surat Al Israa'
and as Noah mentioned
you find these women wearing short skirts and so on
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
it's like the hadith of God's pasture; zina is the pasture. everything leading up to it (such as hugging) would be the unclear area in between.
better to avoid. but i would never go so far as to say it's explicitly haram.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
if we are told we are not to look at women, then why would we let them hug us?
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
9:57 PM
the limits of what are haram are clear. approaching these limits (unnecessaarily) is to be avoided, but claiming that approaching the limits is haram as well just means that approaching-approaching those limits is also haram, and then approaching-approaching-approaching those limits is haram, and so forth. slippery slope which results in people being scared to do anything because it might lead to something that might lead to something haram.
2
that is not the sunnah.
 
Noah
Noah
@goldPseudo I like this paragraph. Should probably print it and post it in my room.
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
@Noah out of curiousity, have you read Nawawi's Forty? good quick collection of ahadith which really captures what "Islam" is (or at least should be).
 
Noah
Noah
@goldPseudo I am afraid, I havent.
Can you send me the link to it?
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
 
Noah
Noah
Great. Thanks guys.
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
10:03 PM
it's the only book of ahadith i currently own in dead tree form. i highly recommend it.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
"It is better for you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle than to touch the hand of a woman who is not permissible to you. [Collected in Tabarani and Bayhaqi; it is saheeh.]"
5
A: Is every physical contact between a male and a female forbidden?

ashes999Quite simply, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: It is better for you to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle than to touch the hand of a woman who is not permissible to you. [Collected in Tabarani and Bayhaqi; it is saheeh.] What this means is that, generally, it is not allowed ...

 
Noah
Noah
Will definitely read through them. Thank you for your recommendation.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
2
A: Is every physical contact between a male and a female forbidden?

AbdullahSome Ahadeeth that prohibit shaking hands between men and women: From Umaymah bint Ruqayqah who said: ‘I came to the Messenger of Allaah -sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam- along with the women, so that we could pledge an allegiance upon Islaam. So we said: O Messenger of Allaah we pledge...

@goldPseudo hugging women is unnecessaarily approaching those limits, furthermore that Ayah is a warning to not approach those limits in whatever way to zina
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
@AlUmmatمجاهد i agree for the most part, but that's not the same as saying it's haram. no matter how disrecommendable it may be, i will not call anything haram without clear proofs.
don't touch a woman you're not married to is clearly sunnah, i don't dispute that. but while i've seen plenty of hadiths warning muslims against it, i've yet to see one clearly forbidding it.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
10:18 PM
@goldPseudo well the Ayah forbids it
@goldPseudo furthermore I am not saying that those circumstances that it is necessary is haram, because there are circumstances of emergency and there are those circumstances which suddenly appear and one has almost no control over it
but when one does have control, or one can say "no, I do not shake or hug" then obviously from the Ayah anything done after that would be haram or atleast very, very, very, close to haram
and that is of course for the women not of ones family
furthermore if it is forbidden and obligatory for us to look away, what happens when someone hugs or gets hugged by a women?
furthermore I ask Allah for forgiveness of any mistake in what I said
but the Ayah, I believe is quite clear
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
@AlUmmatمجاهد only if you assume that hugging inherently "approaches zina". which could very well be true for many people.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo and this is like the prohibition of Alcohol, maybe some people can be moderate and not over use and so on and be ok, but the majority cannot
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
but even then, the commandment is to avoid approaching zina (regardless of the method). understanding that fundamental commandment is far more useful than defining exactly what actions constitute "approaching zina".
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo yes, true, but isn't women in short skirts and immodest cloths hugging you a quite clear road to zina?
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
i've been hugged by more than one woman in my life. i have not come even close to zina with any of them though.
any more than i'm likely to approach zina with my mother if i hug her.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
10:35 PM
@goldPseudo yes, but this may not be the case for the majority as you have mentioned. Furthermore wouldn't someone try to keep safe from the ways that leads to one of the worst and most evil and immoral sins one can commit?
@goldPseudo that is different, because your mother is of you family, those women whom one cannot marry is ok for them to touch like hug and so on, and that is why those women should have those of their family to accompany when on travel, not a man whom isn't of the family
the probability of committing zina with them is far far more less then committing with a women outside of ones family
I am not saying it is impossible, it is is far less probable
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
10:50 PM
i think this is all just an example of penny wise pound foolish.
basically, it means focussing on minor details while glossing over more serious ones.
hugging is, at worst, a minor sin. one of the ones that would be washed away by the daily prayers.
"And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember."
putting too much weight on it just makes the religion more difficult, especially on those in the west.
and not necessarily for any good reason; as i said, hugging doesn't inherently approach zina.
sure, for some (many) it would, and those people should be made to know that we are commanded not to approach zina (by whatever method).
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
just because Islam is simlple, doesn't mean there isn't any difficulties, it is hard for someone who is on alcohol all the time to change, but if he doesn't change he can kill himself. Furthermore the ways that lead to zina are not minor they are major if they weren't Allah would not warn us and order us to not go down the routs
furthermore people can choose whether to go down the routs or not
furthermore we should all remember what Jihadul Akbar is
and all of us have to do it
fight our desires and so on, and fight to follow the deen
those who enter back into islam
are after all to enter it full heartedly
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
once, a man was fooling around (short of zina) with a woman who he was not married to; he felt guilt and confessed to the prophet and asked for his judgement.
the prophet said nothing. then the ayah I quoted above was revealed.
why then should we make a bigger deal of such things than he did?
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo we don't
we just know next time to not go down that rout
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
many do.
and that makes the religion more difficult.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo ok but that wouldn't really be the point, the point is to make them aware of that is wrong and can lead to a great wrong and evil
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
11:07 PM
saying something is haram is not the way to do that though.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo maybe so, but it is something Allah ordered not to do both Zina and going down the routs that lead to it
and of course we are only to make people aware of that
not force
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
agreed.
but defining that "route" is not helpful.
the route one man may take to zina is not necessarily the same as the route another may.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
we don't need to
it is already defined
don't look
don't touch
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
what's important is not the route, it's the destination. "do not approach zina".
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
if you have to speak speak in a professional way
@goldPseudo but without the rout the destination would probably not be gotten to
approaching zina is after all through the routs
and if you block the routs off
would it be probable that the destination be arrived at?
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
11:11 PM
we cannot even hope to block off all routes.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
also it is also on the man and women's part to be covered and be modest
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
the route for a homosexual man to approach zina would be very different from a heterosexual man.
we can hardly forbid men from talking to other men.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo no, but that is why if we see once, not to look again
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
some men can be tempted by any manner of sexual immorality.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo true
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
11:13 PM
defining a fixed route only serves to make alternate routes look permissible.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo yes, but I am not talking about homosexuals
furthermore I do agree that the routs would be different
but I cannot talk in their regards
because I haven't really studied in their regards
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
if i know not to approach zina, i know best what routes to avoid for my own circumstances.
but if i only know one particular route to avoid, that does not help me.
and if i already know not to approach zina, knowing one possible route is only tangentially useful.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
yes but some of these routs are obvious
 
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
penny wise, pound foolish. it's too easy to lose sight of the actual commandment when one focusses only on one possible application of it.
 
Al Ummat مجاهد
Al Ummat مجاهد
@goldPseudo I can agree
 

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