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5:01 PM
@SoumikMukherjee Thanks for the update!
 
Glad to hear that Ted is at least doing well.
 
what things about learning math shud students know
 
@RyderRude should?
 
yes
 
@RyderRude The words we don't want to hear: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE
 
5:06 PM
makes sense
without practice, one can get out of touch with math
 
@RyderRude Its what both my teacher and my dad have been telling me.
 
they know what theyre talking about
 
Quick question, best music to have going during a study session when alone?
Specifically for math
 
i cant both think and listen to music
it's distracting
 
People have told me it's helpful for focusing apparently
 
5:10 PM
oh
i guess i havent tried it correctly
i only use music in free time
 
Without it I tend to go crazy.
 
what other subjects do u like
 
TBH I don't particularly like math. Because it's so frustrating at times.
English, I like and excel in.
 
i think nobody likes all aspects of math.. especially the grinding
 
Fighting tooth and nail to get this degree so I can finally get myself a friggin job.
Some do love it though I'm sure.
 
5:15 PM
yeah maybe some strange people
i like the ideas in math
 
I want to better understand it. I think....for myself, I want to study math without it being for a grade.
If for nothing else than to prove to myself that I can get it.
 
i see myself learning math for my whole life
 
It depends for me.
But algebra is not something I see myself doing forever.
 
yeah... what i meant is learning new ideas in math
surprising applications. it's a cool subject
Derek made this video about fractals which was really cool youtu.be/ovJcsL7vyrk?si=XH6WMa3kMHa9NyXO
 
@RyderRude I'm sure a bunch of those strange people are staring at this message :)
 
5:21 PM
yeah..that's why i chose a non-triggering adjective :P
 
@YourLordJoyBoy glad to hear this
 
@SoumikMukherjee Yeah. I don't hate math at all. Algebra though, I cannot stand. At least not while I'm being graded on it.
@SoumikMukherjee ABSOLUTELY DYING FROM THAT!
 
Its funny because its true. I don't find anyone that likes math to be weird or anything, I'm just not one of them.
And I'm sure some of you do enjoy it.
Did I mention history is fun? I used to not like it, but I learned to enjoy it during the time I was going for my ged.
 
5:38 PM
what do u find fun about history (im also interested in history)
history is frustrating because one can never learn from an objective source. individual biases creep in.
 
@RyderRude the grinding is actually the fun part
 
i dont like it too much..
but it's kinda meditative sometimes
 
probably because you're not learning math with learning math in goal
and besides not all math is equal, not all learning is equal
math is very diverse
 
yeah i like grinding for some math
e.g. i wud hate grinding for something like matrix inverse computations by hand
but i liked grinding for homotopy computation
 
@YourLordJoyBoy You've been sold a bill of goods.
If you want a job, go to a community college, take a year or two of welding classes, and go forth.
3
Fun conversation with one of our welding instructors last week: "Yeah, the college certainly pays a reasonable wage, but I have students who, with only a year of classes under their belts, are making more than I do. Most of my students end up making four or five times what I do."
 
5:48 PM
From a gaming pov, grinding is the best part, easy games are boring
 
@XanderHenderson If I could do something different then I'd go to a technical school
or get a degree in something applied
 
@SoumikMukherjee Yeah, I don't think you and I have the same idea about what "grinding" means.
 
@SoumikMukherjee thats a nice way to look at it..
 
"Grinding" in a game usually refers to repetitive and unrewarding gaming which is done in order to level up so that one can actually beat the next boss or whatnot.
 
@SoumikMukherjee Thats actually good to think about. I suppose it depends though.
 
5:49 PM
@YourLordJoyBoy u should learn coding and stuff for jobs
 
There are hard games with no grind, and easy games with lots and lots of grind.
 
@RyderRude isn't being a code monkey a very sad job?
 
@RyderRude Meh. There is a lot of competition in that market right now. Better to learn a trade, if all you are worried about is a job.
 
@XanderHenderson My college is a technical one. And I've come this far, I'm not giving up.
@XanderHenderson ?
 
@Jakobian i wouldnt know... i havent done it..i guess the AI stuff must be fun
@XanderHenderson oh
 
5:51 PM
@RyderRude you don't just learn coding and work with AI
 
@YourLordJoyBoy Sure. I'm just pointing out that having a college degree is not a guarantee of getting a job. You should go to college because there is something you are interested in and want to study. The fact that you are, perhaps, qualified for certain jobs is a perk, not the point.
 
I am saying purely from my perspective on clash of clans, it was a fun game when things were not so easy to achieve .
 
I feel like you're giving the poor fella a bad advice @RyderRude
 
im sorry...i didnt know any better myself @YourLordJoyBoy
 
I should've started playing chess at 4 and buy bitcoins at 8, what a waste of childhood
 
5:53 PM
@XanderHenderson a very desirable perk
 
@XanderHenderson Let me rephrase what I was saying before. I'm getting a job once I graduate. But that doesn't necessarily require me to have this degree. My point is that I can't have a job and be getting my degree too, it's too much for me.
 
@Jakobian Sure, but being qualified for a job is not a guarantee of getting a job.
 
So I'm finishing getting the degree, then going after a job.
 
@XanderHenderson it certainly opens a lot more opportunities for one, so its a win situation
 
But, in my area, there is a profound demand both for skilled workers and nurses. Train up in one of those areas, and (a) you are basically guaranteed to find work and (b) it is going to pay quite well.
 
5:54 PM
besides even something like wielding, you can't tell me that can't be interesting
 
And I assume this is easier to read? Divide the polynomials.
15z5 - 5z3
5z2
Divide the polynomials.
$15z5 - 5z3
5z2$
UGH!
Can it not show division problems?
 
@Jakobian I've welded. It is a lot of fun. I am terrible at it, but it is something that I would like to get back to at some point. I have ideas for building fractal-ish objects out of steel.
I really want to play with the CNC machine on campus.
 
me too, but under supervision.
it's fun but I found it to be very risky.
 
The best paying job in my country is politics, all you need to do is disregard moralities
 
@SoumikMukherjee No political stuff for me, naw
 
5:58 PM
@XanderHenderson wielding is precise enough for fractals? I'd assume you need something like this plastic machine that got popular.. I forgot the name of it
 
Wish I could 3d print stuff.
 
yeah, 3d printer
 
@Jakobian Do it correctly I mean. Obviously I'd need a printer and the needed files.
And 3d printers require 3d printer money :P
And since someone mentioned games, I have a confession. I am a huge Shadow The Hedgehog fan. Yet, I never got through Sonic Adventure 2, nor did I play Sonic Heroes or finish Shadow The Hedgehog or even play Sonic 06.
 
@Jakobian Depends on what you want to do, and how big you want it to be.
@YourLordJoyBoy Sega made a total of three Sonic games: Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 + Knuckles. There are no others.
:P
 
@XanderHenderson Screw you :P
The adventure games ruled.
 
6:03 PM
@YourLordJoyBoy Okay, Zoomer.
 
I am actually a zoomer too if google is to be believed
 
@XanderHenderson Snowflake would be so cool!
 
Lemme get back on topic XD
$2t^2 + 17t + 35$
 
but I totally don't associate myself with the so called "zoomer culture" (well... I'm not even American for one)
 
@Jakobian I mean, Lego is good enough for fractals. :D
 
6:05 PM
Okay what did I do wrong
2t^2 + 17t + 35
 
What is zoomer culture?
 
@XanderHenderson Menger cube, its actually important for topology
 
@YourLordJoyBoy I don't know what you are trying to type there, but you can either write it as a fraction, using \frac{p}{q}, or use inline division with \div.
 
@SoumikMukherjee you know, the way they say things and what not
 
Wait I got it now
 
6:07 PM
Who are they? gen z? is that where the z in zoomer comes from?
 
@Jakobian To be fair, at least not right now, I wouldn't consider being "American" to be something to be proud of at least atm...
 
@YourLordJoyBoy Its not a good thing to say
be proud of who you are
 
I want to but its hard to be at the moment.
 
@SoumikMukherjee I think so?
 
@SoumikMukherjee "Zoomer" is what I call a person from Gen Z (I think others use this term, too). I believe that this cohort is the group of people born (roughly) between 1998 and 2010. They are characterized by access to cell phones and social media from a young age, and by being in school / college during the COVID pandemic (thus they took many classes via Zoom; they are Zoomers).
 
6:10 PM
how is $g:\mathbb{R}^{*}\to \mathbb{Z}_2$ defined by $g(x)=0$ if $x>0$ and $g(x) = 1$ if $x<1$ a homomorphism? $g(3\cdot -1) = g(-3) = 1$ but $g(3)g(-1) = 0$
 
@YourLordJoyBoy if you're making such claims then they need to be backed up a little, I would think
@Obliv you mean $x < 0$
 
oh I forgot the group op. is addition in $\mathbb{Z}_2$
nvm
 
@Jakobian The way our leaders, if you can call them that, are handling things. Makes me wanna puke.
 
its simple but maybe it helps to think of $\text{sgn}:\mathbb{R}^*\to \{-1, 1\}$
 
@XanderHenderson that's a funny anachronism, haven't seen it before
 
6:12 PM
this is a homomorphism and $\{-1, 1\}\cong \mathbb{Z}_2$ as groups
 
But I'm getting off track. I've got to get this math done.
 
I thought zoomer=gen z+boomer
 
@SoumikMukherjee No. They are people who were forced onto Zoom by the pandemic. :/
 
@XanderHenderson The pandemic reaction robbed me of friendships and relatives >:(
Seriously though, $2t^2+17t+35$
 
Then I am not a zoomer, rather a microsoft teamer :P
 
6:16 PM
I. Hate. Zoom. Classes.
And thats what my algebra class is >:(
 
Still online classes?
 
@YourLordJoyBoy I think you're a little too young to think about such things like politics.
Its not good for you
 
@Jakobian I knew you guys couldn't guess my actual age.
 
I can guess
 
Go for it.
 
6:18 PM
Age is just a number guys
 
True true, but it's hilarious how many get my age wrong based solely on what they see.
 
@Jakobian Never too young.
 
yeah sorry for assuming your age
 
@SoumikMukherjee All of my classes this semester ended up being online, asynchronous. :(
 
My actual age: 35
 
6:21 PM
@YourLordJoyBoy Child.
 
@XanderHenderson 35 is a child?
 
Everyone younger than I is a child. :P
 
You 50 or somethin?
 
@XanderHenderson no I'd say there are times when someone is too young and that's when they haven't developed their critical thinking skills and so on. A young person absorbs concepts like a sponge and that's bad for politics because of how much garbage it contains. That's what I think
 
@Jakobian You ain't freakin wrong there.
 
6:22 PM
@YourLordJoyBoy the 1989 in your profile kinda proves that
 
@SoumikMukherjee I didn't think that'd actually be believed though.
 
Heck, even at this age I fall into the trap of taking something at face value just to realize its not true
 
I claim Xander is either 45 or 50
@Jakobian Happens
 
@Jakobian You might be interested in some of the work on moral development done by folk like Piaget, Kohlberg, and the like. People's relationship with authority develops only by experimenting with those relationships.
 
@Jakobian I just want to reach a point where I'm no longer insanely awkward when meeting new people :D
 
6:25 PM
@Jakobian The recent example being HK integrals?:P
[just a joke, no offence to HK integrals]
 
You can't really have political opinions or thoughts on politics if you don't experiment with those thoughts and ideas. Kids (even young ones) need to be given the space to expression political ideas, and to have people around them push back and test those ideas.
 
@Obliv I just act like myself when I meet new people. And funny enough, I've been in class with a friend for months but only met him for the first time like a week or three ago.
 
It is never too young to start developing those ways of thinking.
 
That's like the most common bad advice is to just "act like yourself" whatever that means. I get the gist is to just be calm and not overthink but yeah I overthink
 
@Obliv I overthink in math. But how is being who and how you normally are bad advice?
 
6:28 PM
The ocean is vast though.. haha..
 
More importantly $3x^3 - 9x^2 = 30x$
I gotta figure these out :O
 
because how we normally are are not how we present ourselves in public and to others it's an evolutionary mechanism or some shit
 
@YourLordJoyBoy Well, there is one "obvious" solution. Once you deal with that, you can reduce it to something quadratic and just apply the formula.
 
@SoumikMukherjee I think?
@XanderHenderson Working on that
 
6:31 PM
Oh, but after you deal with the "obvious" solution, the remaining quadratic factors relatively simply, so you could do that, too.
 
@XanderHenderson If I'm the child, you're the old man. But I'm working on that problem.
 
@SoumikMukherjee that wasn't funny
 
@SoumikMukherjee ?
 
I have a lot of respect for HK integration theory
 
I don't know why i thought that was funny
 
6:42 PM
@Jakobian Lost on said theory
 
for surjectivity does this make sense: Let $h: \mathbb{Z}_{16}\to\mathbb{Z}_4$ defined by $h([a]_{16})=[3a]_4$. $h$ is surjective since for any $a \in \mathbb{Z}_4$ we have $a\mapsto 3a\pmod 4$
 
@Obliv this is composition of the quotient map $\mathbb{Z}_{16}\to\mathbb{Z}_4$ given by $[a]_{16}\to [a]_4$ and multiplication by $3$ in $\mathbb{Z}_4$
 
they are additive groups tho, should I interpret $3a$ as $3+a$ or mult.
 
Now we're back on doin maths, there we go
But then I'm curious as well about everyone's avatars.
 
Hello @YourLordJoyBoy How is your study going on?
 
6:48 PM
@LuckyChouhan It's going. At the moment I'm currently doing both the study guide alongside some homework. Figured the homework should be done before the school site goes on maintenance.
 
I came up with a deep question
 
yeah nvm it doesn't even matter. for any $a \in \mathbb{Z}_4$ we have $a \mapsto 3a\pmod 4$. $h([a]_{16}[b]_{16})=h([a+b]_{16})=[3(a+b)]_{4} = [3a+3b]_{4} = [3a]_4+[3b]_4=h([a]_{16})h([b]_{16})$. I guess it does technically matter
 
@YourLordJoyBoy I see, so in which course you're enrolled?
 
Algebra 1 (again)
 
@XanderHenderson I'd say yes when it comes to political views. But maybe its not the best to get those views from what politicians have to say
 
6:50 PM
@YourLordJoyBoy Oh dear,
 
which is what I was thinking about when I said "think about politics"
 
@XanderHenderson what they exactly do?
 
not exactly opinions on political topics. Sorry for the confusion
 
@JohnZimmerman What is it
 
@LuckyChouhan Thats why I'm working so hard. To get through it so I don't have to repeat it ever again.
And guys, my own political ideas have been forged also due to how what I enjoy has been impacted by politics. Which is normally.....ugh
 
6:55 PM
@YourLordJoyBoy so you are in school or college?
 
The kernel is $a \in \mathbb{Z}_{16}$ s.t. $3a \equiv 0 \pmod 4$ so $a \in \{0,4,8,12\}$, why does what I'm reading say it's the cycle group $\mathbb{Z}_4$ generated by $[4]_{16}$
 
@LuckyChouhan College. Trying to get this associate arts degree.
 
@Obliv $3a\equiv 0\pmod{4}$ is equivalent to $a\equiv 0 \pmod{4}$
because $3$ is invertible in the ring $\mathbb{Z}_4$
 
@YourLordJoyBoy Nice, but why it is taking you so long to learn algebra 1?
 
@LuckyChouhan Growing up I ended up in special education classes. So I never learned it when I should have.
 
6:57 PM
what I'm saying is $\mathbb{Z}_4 \neq \{0,4,8,12\}$
 
@Obliv its isomorphic
this means the groups are basically the same
 
@YourLordJoyBoy you'll learn shortly. Have you tried Khan Academy?
 
@LuckyChouhan Did that while getting my ged.
Which was helpful but it can only help so much.
 
@Jakobian you don't know what you say.
 
@jakobian how do you even write cycle group generated by $[4]_{16}$ like is it $\langle [4]_{16}\rangle$
 
7:00 PM
@LuckyChouhan I lost braincells while reading this
 
BRB everyone
 
@Obliv yeah sure you could write it like that
 
why would you call that "the cycle group $\mathbb{Z}_4$ generated by $[4]_{16}$" and not just the cycle group generated by $[4]_{16}$ which is isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}_4$
I mean it's not an official solution so I could just be picking a fight with some random person on the internet
OH
Part of the question was identify the cycle group which the kernel is isomorphic to. I should probably read the whole question
 
@Obliv when doing group theory its common to not specify we are actually thinking about an isomorphic copy of $\mathbb{Z}_4$. Similarly when doing topology you might be thinking of an isomorphic copy of say, $[0, 1]$
 
Now that I think about it, it's maybe better to start with abstractions and then once people get used to it, only then give specific examples. It may take time, but the understanding will be more solid than to first look at examples and then go for abstractions
 
7:06 PM
$\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/\langle(1,1)\rangle$ what even is this quotient group? Isn't this just $\{(0,0)\}$
 
@Obliv its isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}$
 
@SoumikMukherjee It takes time regardless, we don't think abstractly until later in life and even then it's only because we focus on it i.e, go to school.
I know it's isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}$ because it's in the problem statement, but isn't $a \in \mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/\langle(1,1)\rangle$ given by $(x\pmod 1,y\pmod 1)$
which is always 0
 
@Obliv no
 
ok let $G/N$ define a quotient group. Isn't $a \in G/N$ defined by $Na$
 
you're just wrong here so I don't really have more to comment
@Obliv no
idk what you mean but what you wrote is definitely wrong
elements of $G/N$ are of the form $Na$ for $a\in G$
 
7:11 PM
I just typed that 😭
 
you typed that $a\in G/N$ is defined by $Na$ which is gibberish
 
would it be better if I wrote $a \in G/N$ is of the form $Na$
 
no
it still would be gibberish
 
oh I have to specify $a \in G$
 
Can I get some advice on how I can get some brute force methods trying to find an unknown answer to a set of variables?
 
7:12 PM
you can write that $x\in G/N$ is of the form $x = Na$
@Obliv no, it still would be gibberish
 
how do you embolden characters in chat
 
its just your standard formatting
 
obliv: the same symbol should not do double duty (here, as both an element of G/N and an element of G)
 
@Jakobian he did the same thing!
 
@Obliv **text**
 
7:15 PM
look carefully and see that he did not
 
@Obliv nope
 
o..
wait isn't $\langle (1,1)\rangle$ literally just $\mathbb{N}\times\mathbb{N}$
 
How do you think about $\mathbb{Z}\times \mathbb{Z}/\langle (1, 1)\rangle$? You identify two elements if they differ by a multiple of $(1, 1)$ i.e. if they differ by $(n, n)$ for some integer $n$
@Obliv no its not
 
So $a \in \mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/\langle(1,1)\rangle$ is of the form $(x,y)$ where $x,y \in \mathbb{Z}^-\bigcup \{0\}$
 
$\langle (1, 1)\rangle = \{(n, n): n\in\mathbb{Z}\}$
 
7:17 PM
oh
 
You can see how you can just zero one coordinate from this? And be left with the second?
 
but isn't $\langle 1\rangle = \mathbb{N}$
 
and how it makes sense that its just $\mathbb{Z}$?
 
for addition
 
@Obliv not as a group no
we are talking about being generated as a group
$\mathbb{N}$ isn't a subgroup of $\mathbb{Z}$
 
7:18 PM
but $1$ has infinite order
 
if you were talking about being generated as a semigroup then $\mathbb{N}$ would be correct
you are missing inverses is the point
@Obliv irrelevant
 
how do you get that $(n,n)\mid n \in \mathbb{Z}$
if $(1,1)$ is never negative
by addition
 
$(1, 1)$ is never positive?
whats your point
 
$\langle (1,1)\rangle$ is the cyclic group generated by $(1,1)$ in the additive abelian group $\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}$
 
If you have some abstract group $G$, say additive group for ease of thinking for you
and $a\in G$
 
7:21 PM
but if $|(1,1)|$ is infinite
how does it "generate" the negatives
 
then $\langle a\rangle = \{na : n\in\mathbb{Z}\}$
always
 
@leslietownes do you know what I mean? Am I just misinterpreting this whole thing
 
right. Cannot accept that you're wrong
 
??? It's not that I'm right or wrong I just have never seen that
 
obliv: the subgroup generated by g always contains the inverse of g, more or less by definition. it is, among other things, a subgroup
this might be a thing about mixing additive and multiplicative notation. if you write elements of ZxZ with multiplicative notation, "(1,1)^{-1}" is (-1,-1)
 
7:24 PM
$(1,1)^n \mid n \in \mathbb{Z}$ doesn't this imply $(1,1)\oplus (1,1)\oplus ... = (1+1+1...,1+1+1...)$
 
(1,1)^n would be interpreted in terms of iterated addition of (1,1) when n is positive (or nonnegative)
when n is negative the inverse becomes involved
 
okay I think I was conflating order & exponentiation
 
the excerpt there is definitely not saying that the subgroup generated by a in G is {a^n: n = 0, 1, 2, 3, ...}
which fails even in G = the integers and a = 1, as you are maybe noticing
 
I thought an element couldn't have negative order
 
in additive notation the statement would be that the subgroup generated by g in G is {ng: n in Z} where ng has an "iterated addition of g" intepretation when n is positive and "iterated addition of the inverse of g" in interpretation when n is negative
 
7:26 PM
this has nothing to do with order of an element in a group
 
stop and check, what would any of this have to do with an element having negative order
we're just talking about "powers" of elements of G at the moment
as an example, "what does g^{-2} mean when g is an element of an abstract group"
 
Okay that's a huge oversight on my part
 
@Obliv well it is pretty insulting to call another person as if I don't know what I'm talking about
 
if we're talking about $\langle g \rangle$ then $g^{-2} = g^{-1}g^{-1}$
@Jakobian ??? I called leslie because I couldn't understand why I was misunderstanding the problem
It's not like that's your fault
 
obliv: and g^{-1} might not be some iterated sum of a nonnegative number of elements of g (as for example, in the integers, -1 is not of the form 1 + 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (n times) for any nonnegative n, and only becomes that by some kind of abuse of notation of what it will mean to add something to itself a negative number of times)
 
7:29 PM
and I was just about to try and explain it to you?
eh whatever
 
I didn't mean to insult you :( I'm just really dense and oblivious
 
it's right there in the name :o :o :o
 
i didn't even notice that
 
Why did it take me so long to find this smh $$W_{n}\left(e^{-\operatorname{floor}\left(\ln x\right)}xF\left(\ln x\right)\right)=F\left(\ln x\right)=W_{n}\left(y\ln y\right)$$
 
so then if $\langle (1,1)\rangle = \{(n,n)\mid n \in \mathbb{Z}\}$ then we have the set $\{(1,2),(2,3),...\}$ which is isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}$ *forgot the negatives again lol
 
7:34 PM
Where $F(x) = x - \lfloor x\rfloor$
 
maybe I should just become a finitist and hide in a cave
and throw away the negatives too. A positive finitist
 
obliv: what logical connection are you making with the words "then we have the set" there
 
in the problem it says $\mathbb{Z}\times\mathbb{Z}/\langle(1,1)\rangle$ is isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}$ so I was throwing away the pairs
 
thoughts on linking a blog post on a mathse question?
is it okay?
 
obliv: i'd ask the same question about "throwing away the pairs," but maybe a reset of sorts would help. often when showing that two things A and B are isomorphic, one exhibits (or somehow proves the existence of) a function from A to B. it might help to write down what A is here, and what B is here, whatever is playing the role of the function here (i.e. specifically saying, given one element of A, what the corresponding element of B is)
 
7:49 PM
if you are into isomorphism theorems, there is a version of this where you prove a quotient object A = C/D is isomorphic to B by exhibiting in the first instance not a function not from A to B, but from the "non-quotiented" object C to B, and then proving stuff about that function
john: i don't see any problem with it, at least if the linked post is not needed to understand the question. i wouldn't rely on an external link to provide any necessary context for the question, but for true "background" material, i would almost certainly prefer an external link to someone just pasting it into the OP
 
ok @leslietownes ☺️
@Obliv my question is as such: If a real analytic function $f$ is involutive i.e. $f(f(x))=x$ and its Mellin transform can be taken, does this imply that $\tilde f$ inherits a functional equation as well?
It is very rigorously posed I might add.
 
The insanity that occurs in thine absence.
 
basically my entire theory would crumble if this was false. and I would never return to math again.
 

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