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10:00 PM
@Mike: I'm on the phone. Hang on.
 
Alright
Nevermind: compact manifolds are complete, and completeness is preserved under passing to covers.
 
x<z<y for z rational so 1/y<1/z<1/x thus 1/(y)^(1/2)<1/(z)^(1/2)<1/(x)^(1/2) if x=a^2 and y=b^2 z not equal to c^2 then 1/b)<1/(z)^(1/2)<1/a . is that it ? it loses generality when i state x=a^2 and y=b^2 z not equal to c^2? @TedShifrin
 
@TedShifrin Are you going to have a housewarming party after you move
 
you gonna come to it, mr eyeglasses?
 
@TedShifrin is my reasoning correct?
 
10:10 PM
agh, @KellyBlunie: We have x and y rational. I want z irrational. Use what you did for 0 and 1.
 
@TedShifrin Only if I attend a grad school near where you move to and if you have the party after I relocate there
 
@TedShifrin Hey Ted! What's new?
 
Hi @Stan
 
but that hapen when i restrict to x=a^2 and y=b^2 z not equal to c^2 being a, b integers? however i must prove a^2 and b^2 is an integer @TedShifrin
 
no, no, @KellyBlunie: Use $0<\sqrt 2/2 < 1$ to solve $x<?<y$ when x and y are rational.
 
10:20 PM
@TedShifrin In classes you have taught, what's the average TA/student ratio? I assume you don't grade everything yourself...
 
i mean thatscwhat happen when
 
Just curious because my econ class has a 55/1 Student TA ratio
and the grading is really sketchy
 
@TedShifrin Can you give me a hint for a function with non-isolated hyperbolic periodic points
 
@Stan: In upper level I do grade. But we get a grad student grader for about 5-6 hours for upper-level classes, with 15-30 students.
 
Yeah, that seems more reasonable.
 
10:21 PM
That's a fairly standard ratio for lower-division, @Stan.
 
@TedShifrin, I have a small question about a topology problem I'm working on.
 
hi @Kaj
 
Hey!
 
Really? Wow. I am surprised. Doesn't that make for sketchy grading? it has for my class. I left out half of the answer to one of the questions and he didn't notice. Just marked it correct because he doesn't have time to read in detail.
 
The problem is as follows:

Let $M$ be a manifold and $N \in \mathbb{Z}^+$. Suppose that every connected component of $M$ can be embedded in $\mathbb{R}^N$. Show that $M$ can be embedded in $\mathbb{R}^N$.

Shouldn't $M$ also need to be compact for this to be the case?
 
10:23 PM
No, @Kaj.
 
@Kaj: 2nd countable should be enough.
 
Ohh, that might do it!
Yes! I think it does!
 
Unless Pete is sick, that should be implicit, @Ted :)
 
I was thinking "What if there are uncountably many connected components?"
 
Then your manifold sucks!
@Stan: In my dept for lower-div calc classes we have undergrads to grade the homework for us, which is probably even sketchier. This is not something one usually worries about; the point of the homework in most grading schemes is not to evaluate the student, but to teach them.
 
10:26 PM
That's true, I hadn't thought of that.
 
The percentage points are a carrot on a stick.
 
What do you mean?
 
oh wow
it's carrot and stick not carrot on stick
I always thought the image was of a carrot being dangled from a stick in front of a mule
 
I thought it was carrot or the stick.
 
the point being that the percentage points are often a miniscule part of the grade, whose purpose is to get students to do the homework (as most wont if there aren't points attached)
 
10:32 PM
Yeah, I see your point. People are really lazy about studying, I have noticed that. They don't work without some incentives.
 
If you read lower it mentions the carrot on the stick (which is what I have always thought was the saying)
 
0
Q: encryption system ElGamal

user159870Construct an encryption system ElGamal at the group $\mathbb{Z}_{19}^{\star}$. As base, we can use $g=\overline{2}$, that generates the group. Describe the construction of a pair private/public key and encrypt the message $m=\overline{5}$. Unfortunately I have no attempt. Can you help me with ...

 
I thought that as well @MikeMiller
 
@DiscipleofBarney Seems to have a different tone than I use it with
 
@Stan: Even with incentives, many of mine don't. There will be D's and F's ... in a course they need to graduate.
 
10:33 PM
Giving the mule the incentive to move forward, rather than taunting the mule for eternity
 
I don't see why the stick is considered as a punishment
 
beatings @mr eyeglasses
 
@TedShifrin O.o
that's perplexing. why do they take it then?
 
@TedShifrin Maybe he doesn't see why beatings are a punishment... ;)
Hmph. People too interested in points to just let the OP work something out themselves.
 
10:37 PM
That's what I get for opening a question outside my tags
 
In psych class I learned about 4 types of rewards and punishments
 
Beatings, beatings, beatings, and different kinds of beatings
 
well, some of us like beatings, @Mike :D
OK, I'm now off the phone. Did @KellyBlunie ever figure out what I was trying to get him to do?
 
Yes, @Ted, that's why the two reward types above are beatings
 
I think he is still working on it
 
10:40 PM
0<1/n<y , x<1/n+x<y , x<(1+xn)/n<y if x=a^2/b^2 and y=c^2/d^2 inequality becames a/b<(na^2+b^2/nb^2)^(1/2) < c/d . thats it? but not i have to show that na^2+b^2 and nb^2 are integers? thats way off?
 
@Ted: Kelly is a woman's name, generally
 
Oh, not always, @Mike, but my apologies, @KellyBlunie, if you're a woman. I didn't mean any insult.
 
Yeah, I have heard Kelly be a guy's name.
 
I think my friend's name is Kelso but everyone calls him Kelly
 
Too bad English doesn't have a genderless personal pronoun.
 
10:41 PM
@KellyBlunie: You're being too stubborn. I wanted you to work with $0<\sqrt2/2<1$ and use a linear map to give $x<?<z$. Forget all this squaring stuff.
 
Most languages don't. In French, "on" is only used to refer to a general person, not to a particular genderless person, @Stan :P
 
Well, maybe someone should invent one or start a linguistic trend or something. Writing s/he is ugly.
 
mr eyeglasses: What's your setting for your non-isolated hyperbolic periodic points question? Maps on what?
 
They have, @Stan
 
10:45 PM
@TedShifrin It doesn't specify, but I think we can assume on $\Bbb R$
 
what is a hyperbolic periodic point on $\Bbb R$?
 
A point $a$ such that $f'(a) \neq 1$
 
non-isolated on $\Bbb R$? Hmm ... So, a whole interval of such points?
 
Yea
 
@MikeMiller What is this pronoun?
 
10:47 PM
@StanShunpike They.
 
So what if you take $f(x)=-x$?
 
I assume you mean that a hyperbolic point is one such that $f'(a) \neq 1$, and a hyperbolic periodic point is a periodic point that's also hyperbolic?
 
growls loudly at bad syntax @Mike
 
i am sorry i am not following or getting to, but at this point i am not supose to use linear map
i am sorry i am not following or getting to, but at this point i am not supose to use linear map @TedShifrin
 
@KellyBlunie: What if I want an irrational between 1/3 and 3/4?
Can you stretch the interval from 0 to 1 to match the interval from 1/3 to 3/4?
@MikeMiller Yup.
 
10:49 PM
Oops, I meant $\lvert f'(a) \rvert \neq 1$
 
Yeah, that's what I thought, mr eyeglasses. Then I doubt it'll work on $\Bbb R$.
 
don't really understand what's so hyperbolic about it
 
in the sense of dynamical systems, @Mike
 
in $\Bbb R^n$, $n > 1$, I can make sense of what a hyperbolic point should look like; it scales out in one 'direction' and scales in another
 
no eigenvalue of the derivative should have absolute value 1.
 
10:50 PM
Well we've worked with functions with parameters (e.g. $f(x) = \lambda \sin(x)$ or something), so that might be the trick
 
@MikeMiller lol well, but that's plural not singular
 
I dunno, mr eyeglasses. I'm going to cook dinner. You can update me later ...
 
Ok
 
@StanShunpike Indeed :) +1.
 
@Ted: If you have a problem with the evolution of language, start speaking like you're Beowulf.
But even with my distaste for your opinion on the use of language, there is plenty of historical use of the singular 'they'.
 
10:54 PM
yes but i dont know if is this you trying to say, 0<1 multply my (3/4-1/3) , 0<3/4-1/3 thus 1/3 <3/4 @TedShifrin
by
 
hahaha @TedShifrin there is a star button ya know :p speaking of which, why does math chat always have chat guidelines starred?
 
So that new people can see it.
 
@TedShifrin I am solving problems in abstract algebra what do you think of my argument. If gcd(a,c) = 1 and gcd(b,c) = 1, prove that gcd(ab,c) = 1. Here is my argument.

Proof:
Let d = gcd(ab,c) $\rightarrow$ d | c and d | ab. Since gcd(a,c) = 1 = gcd(d$q_1$,c) and let d` = gcd(d,c). This means exists x,y $\in$ Z such that $dq_1x_1$ + cy = 1$


since d` | d and d | c so d` | d$x_1$ + cy = 1 hence d` = 1 . so gcd(d,c) = 1. So by euclid's lemma d | b however gcd(b,c) = 1 so d must be 1 hence gcd(ab,c) = 1.
hm
let me clean this up
 
@MikeMiller Yes, but then why doesn't every chat have that? Why isn't it just posted like next to the name of the chat room? Physics chat doesn't have such guidelines constantly starred....
 
Because our chat is better
 
10:58 PM
Not every chat has that because not everybody has decided to. You can't bluelink in the description.
 
what do you think @TedShifrin my goal btw is to finish reading alot of DF and solve all its excerises this summer
 
That's probably an absurd goal.
 
why ?
 
There are a fuckload of exercises.
And I do not use the word fuckload lightly.
 
yeah I dunno maybe I should pick 5 per chapter or something but I am scared to pick the easy ones
@MikeMiller what would you suggest for picking the excerises
 
11:01 PM
I don't have any actual advice. I was just going to point out that there's a reason the online compendium for D&F solutions is called "project crazy project", and there's further a reason that dude stopped 2/3 of the way in.
 
can you give more hints? @TedShifrin please
 
2/3? it was more like 3/5ths even
 
@SamuelYusim Just a guesstimate.
 
last summer I tried to do a bunch of the exercises myself, but I didn't get as far as that guy did
whoever he is, he's one hardcore dude
 
11:05 PM
@MikeMiller can you help me with a question?
 
If it's what you've been talking to Ted about, no. You have enough at your fingertips to do it yourself. You should buckle down and try to do that.
 
11:17 PM
Guys, are you familiar with cryptography?
 
One of the CS professors at my school always comes into our math department and tries to recruit students into his cryptography class
 
@ᴇʏᴇs Did he get you?
 
@user159870 No, I don't think he's gotten many people
 
@KarimMansour No offence but doing D&F in a summer is literally impossible
 
yeah
I should maybe pick 5 questions in the chapter and do them instead
 
11:25 PM
Some people can't read a book in a month haha
And this thing is 900 pages long
 
I definitely can't read a book in a month
 
You should do all the exercises in a chapter
But you shouldn't be able to do many chapters
 
yeah exactly
 
a reasonable goal is to do maybe up to the module theory if you start from the beginning
 
...
That's still 10 chapters lol
 
11:27 PM
with excerises @SamuelYusim ?
 
yeah, with exercises
 
yeah thats a good goal
 
I think an hour per page is a decent reading pace
 
@ᴇʏᴇs I agree
 
I did about that much last summer, @Incurrence
 
11:28 PM
@SamuelYusim What level were you already at though?
 
I had just finished my first year of university
 
hi - does it make sense to have a negative log answer? texpaste.com/n/9sdoypeg
 
Well either you are extremely advanced or you didn't learn it properly lol
 
I am also not bad level @Incurrence I mean I finished 2nd algebra already but I would like to do everything carefully
like to understand everything 100 %
 
to be fair I had help from a prof at the local university where I was living. We'd discuss problems and such
 
11:29 PM
@KarimMansour I know, that's always a good idea :)
 
@KarimMansour 100% , not even 99 ;)
 
@SamuelYusim So you could do any of the exercises now from the first 9 chapters?
 
@baxx no xD
 
I dunno if I could do any one of them
 
@SamuelYusim What?
Wait you read it only, or did the exercises?
 
11:30 PM
@KarimMansour I'm not sure what I'm settling for ha... take what I can!
 
I did them
 
Sometimes I forget how to do a problem I've already solved before, and it makes me question if I really learned the material or not
 
I definitely can't remember how to do some randomly chosen exercise I've done in the last n years
 
but since then I've gotten used to different definitions and practices than those used by the authors of that book, and I've also probably forgotten a good deal of info
 
Either my lecturers think I am a good student for fallacious reasons, or they are lying to me then
 
11:32 PM
because the corresponding courses I've taken since then don't cover some stuff in D&F and cover stuff that D&F didn't
 
@MikeMiller that's nice to hear , or reassuring perhaps :)
 
I'm third year and I could NOT do all the exercises from the first 10 chapters in 3 months
That's 336 pages with the exercise lists probably taking more than 15 hours per set for the majority of them
 
different people do math at different speeds and in different ways
 
So lets say 300 hours of reading, 36*15 hours of exercises
 
e.g., D&F is the only source of abstract algebra knowledge I've seen that doesn't require a ring to have a multiplicative identity, and this allows some really awful counterexamples to exist
 
11:34 PM
So 840 hours for me
That's because it deals with rings without classifying rings,rngs and commutative rings
 
hungerford doesn't either, @SamuelYusim
stupid convention
 
@MikeMiller: neat
 
So I could do D&F up to chapter ten if I only did it and did 9hrs a day, hmmm okay, maybe you can
 
My professor called that a "rng" instead of "ring" lol
 
Yep^ pronounced rung
 
11:35 PM
my goal for most of the summer was to do one sub-chapter per day
 
How's Aluffi treating you, @Incurrence ?
 
@pjs36 Haven't got into it yet haha, just got to uni
 
it doesn't really matter how rng is pronounced, since it's not really anything more than an intellectual curiosity
 
@MikeMiller Really?
 
Hi all - any input on this log answer - texpaste.com/n/9sdoypeg , doesn't seem like it's worth a post
 
11:36 PM
often there'd be around 12-15 exercises in a section which was doable in maybe 5-6 hours, + ~2 hours of reading
 
really
 
@Incurrence Haha, I didn't think you'd have slammed it, I'm just hoping it might have some of the stuff you needed for the project. Just curious if it started to pan out all, no worries
 
@pjs36 It does have some of the stuff I needed for sure
@pjs36 Has a very nice chapter there on it
 
occasionally there'd be a really short section with no exercises which was nice, but I'd also occasionally get wrecked by the odd chapter with 30+ exercises
 
0
Q: Fermat witness to compositeness of $n=21$

user159870I have to find a Fermat witness to compositeness of $n=21$. I found this The Fermat compositeness test is a primality test based on the observation that by Fermat’s little theorem if $b^{n-1} \not\equiv 1 \pmod n$ and $b \not\equiv 0 \pmod n$ then $n$ is composite. The Fermat compositeness test...

 
11:38 PM
@SamuelYusim Do you drink much coffee ;)
 
I actually only started drinking coffee this previous term
 
@SamuelYusim How old are you?
 
coffee is great
 
19
I turn 20 in a month
also yeah coffee is awesome
 
Do Americans always finish highschool on the year they turn 18?
 
11:40 PM
no
also, samuel isn't american
 
Do they normally finish highschool the year they turn 18
?
 
well look who read my profile
 
i have a habit of that
 
I know South American's do
 
also I was 18 when I graduated but it's common for graduates to be 17 or 19
 
11:41 PM
around 18 is reasonable
some graduate earlier some later
 
depending on when you start school
 
In Australia highschool finishes at 17
and last year of uni for math is turning 20
For undergraduate
 
huh, well it'd sure be nice to finish that early
 
It sure would lol
 
I'll probably be nearly 22
 
11:43 PM
I am 21 this year and I finish undergraduate at 22
Anyway I better get to work
I'll talk math when I come back surely
 
have a good one, dude
 
You too
 
@Sam what are you up to lately
 
@KellyBlunie You want us to delete you??? Why??? HAHAHHA
 
well, I moved back home for the summer and I'm trying to get a research job around here. I also picked up a copy John M. Lee's intro to topological manifolds because people tell me it's good so I've been working away at that
not too far in yet, though. Still doing the basics of topology because I never have before
 
11:53 PM
i see
what does 'the basics of topology' entail?
 
right now I'm supposed to prove that if a function $f$ is such that the preimage of any closed set under $f$ is closed then $f$ is continuous
 
on a metric space?
 
in an arbitrary topological space
 
I see
 
@SamuelYusim are you going to the undergrad math conference this year?
 
11:56 PM
@SamuelYusim I just proved that as an exercise last week or so
 
I guess I saw the topological stuff for $\mathbb{R}^n$ in calculus 3, but I really didn't like my teacher for that course so I've forgotten a lot beyond some of the basic intuition
@KarimMansour: the CUMC? unfortunately it's really far away from me so I won't be able to go.
@ᴇʏᴇs: neat
 
Comme ci comme ça
 

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