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12:02 AM
You're right. It assumes that K's algo works, which is what we're trying to prove. @user159870
 
12:29 AM
Right. Forgive me for the interruption, but I have a slight question.
Say you consider the stereographic projection of the unit sphere onto the extended complex plane.
If you have 2 points on the plane, neither corresponding to the north pole, the spherical line through them is a circle that intersects the unit circle at negatives.
My only question is, is there any easy way to know whether the line connecting the 2 points is the minor or major arc of the circle?
For instance, I know that if both points are inside the unit circle, you take the minor arc.
And if both are outside, you take the major arc.
But I can't seem to spot the exact reason.
Thank you, anyway!
 
12:56 AM
hmm
 
@KarimMansour, nothing to do?
 
yeah
studying from munkrees
 
no break from math?
i just ordered munkres today.
 
@AlpArslan: I don't understand your question.
 
no :D
 
1:05 AM
hi @Karim @abel
 
munkrees is awesome
Hi @TedShifrin
 
Hmm, this discussion of Munkres makes me realize I haven't seen Jasper in a while. I hope he's doing ok.
 
oh where is jasper
last time I've seen him was last Wednesday
 
morning folks
 
good night, @Mike
 
1:08 AM
evening @MikeMiller
 
hi ted
 
its like 7:08 pm here
 
@Ted
Well, basically, if you project a geodesic between two points on a sphere down to the complex plane
How do you know, whether the line you get on the plane is a minor or major arc?
 
Oh, wait, you're necessarily starting with a great circle on the sphere?
You don't usually get a line.
Most of the time you get a circle.
 
Hi@TedShifrin
 
1:13 AM
Hi, @Remember.
 
I just found out that every group can be looked as a symmetry is that right@TedShifrin
 
Most groups I know, yes ... what do you mean by symmetry?
 
Well, yeah, exactly.
You do get a circle on the plane.
And the projections of the 2 points lie on this circle.
 
But, does the minor arc of the great circle on the sphere go to the major arc on the plane or the minor arc on the plane?
 
1:18 AM
that is by Cayley theorem
 
And you're asking how to tell which corresponds to the shorter path on the sphere (assuming the points aren't opposite)?
 
Is the question.
 
@Rememberme
 
Quite!
I'm sure there's something elementary that I'm missing.
 
@Rememberme its nice seeing you advancing fast
good job
 
1:22 AM
Well, @AlpArslan, I've never thought about this before. So, for sure, if the two points are in the southern hemisphere, the shorter arc will project to something inside the unit circle in the plane.
If the two points are in the northern hemisphere, the shorter arc will project to something outside the unit circle.
 
Exactly.
And since, the great circles project to circles that meet the unit circle at antipodes (which happen to be negatives of each other here), the former case is the minor arc, and the latter, the major arc.
But, I can't seem to see the connection.
 
@robjohn Hey!!! Do you have an idea if the following modified algorithm of dfs is linear?
0
Q: Time Complexity of modified dfs algorithm

evindaI want to write an algorithm that finds an optimal vertex cover of a tree in linear time O(n), where n is the number of the vertices of the tree. A vertex cover of a graph G=(V,E) is a subset W of V such that for every edge (a,b) in E, a is in W or b is in W. In a vertex cover we need to have ...

 
Hmm, well, I think it follows from what I said before.
So, draw the unit circle in the plane, and draw a circle in the plane going through two opposite points on that circle.
The only case we have to ponder is one point inside the circle and the other point outside.
 
For a constant function, is the maximum of the function usually considered the constant value?
 
But, by symmetry, the shorter path in the plane must give the shorter path on the sphere, because the alternative path must be longer both places.
Yes, mr eyeglasses.
And the minimum.
 
1:31 AM
Ok
 
@MikeMiller: You came in just to say good morning?
 
Hmm. I don't think that's true.
 
Sure.
I just got back was all.
 
Ah, ok @MikeM
Back?
 
I was out before, you see.
 
1:33 AM
Because, for instance, if we draw our triangle such that geodesic on the sphere passes close to the north pole, that will distort to something enormous on the plane, for instance, no?
 
@AlpArslan: If we reflect in the axis perpendicular to the two points on the unit circle, we get congruent arcs in both places.
 
The two points on the unit circle?
 
Of course, @AlpArslan. I didn't say that if we stay outside the unit circle that's always the shorter path.
I'm thinking about various circles passing through two fixed antipodal points on the unit circle.
 
Mhm.
Possibly something to do with angles?
 
I thought we had decided what to do if both points were inside the unit circle or both points were outside. I was dealing with the remaining case.
Hmm, I don't think it's that subtle. What am I missing?
Oh, if they're both outside, it may not be obvious.
 
1:36 AM
shrugs. I was trying to see if there's any connection with the differences of their arguments for instance.
 
Wait a minute. If we take two points in the upper hemisphere, we get a shorter path by staying in the upper hemisphere, not going around into the lower hemisphere.
 
Mhm, yes.
 
So for two points outside the unit circle, we should stay outside the unit circle. That may be shorter or it may be longer down in the plane.
 
Sure.
 
That's the rule. If the two points are outside, always stay outside. If they are inside, always stay inside. And if one is outside and one is inside, take the shorter arc in the plane.
It would be interesting to prove this by integrating with respect to the chordal metric in the plane ... :)
heya @Incurrence
 
1:39 AM
Hey only on for 5 min, but just so I can think about it, what did you mean by " If the first $k$ diagonals of $C$ and $D$ agree, then so do the first $k$ diagonals of $C^{-1}$ and $D^{-1}$." What do you mean agree @Ted?
 
I meant have equal entries, @Incurrence.
in those places
 
Ok
But they won't agree?
 
I'm claiming that'll be the case for $AB$ and $BA$ up to a certain point.
 
Since $C\in G^0$ and $D\in G^i$
 
@Incurrence
hi
 
1:40 AM
Right, @Incurrence.
 
Are you sure about that last case, Ted?
 
NO NO ... C = AB, D = BA.
 
I still don't seem to understand why.
 
@TedShifrin Me?
 
Yes, by symmetry, @AlpArslan. Because reflection across the perpendicular bisector of your diameter gives an isometry in both places. So you'll have the same arc plus extra going around the other way.
@Incurrence, $A\in G^0$, $B\in G^k$, $C=AB$, $D=BA$.
 
1:41 AM
@TedShifrin $G^{i+1} =[G^0,G^i]$ and we take $ABA^{-1}B^{-1}$ where $A\in G^0$ and $B\in G^{i}$ right?
Ok
 
Right. So I'm thinking of that as $CD^{-1}$.
 
Oho. That's a fair call, actually.
 
Ok
Okay, thank you, I'll think on this, gotta run to class
 
So examine the first $k$ superdiagonals of $AB$ and $BA$, @Incurrence.
 
I'll try and get that down rigorously now, and see if it works out!
 
1:42 AM
Bubye :)
 
Thank you!
 
You're welcome, @AlpArslan. Interesting question :)
 
Mm.
The issue is essentially in that I'm trying to write a program that plots projection of spherical triangles onto the plane.
And, it works for a great deal of cases. Mostly because I always take minor arcs. But fails for others.
 
Ah, I thought about stuff like this writing some stuff on projective geometry based on thinking of the sphere modded out by the antipodal map. But never this particular question.
Right, minor arcs aren't necessarily right if both points are in the northern hemisphere.
 
Quite.
But it seems hellish to have to program in the cases.
 
1:44 AM
No, you just want to stay outside the unit circle in that case, regardless.
That's what we've decided.
 
Yes, yes. Exactly.
 
Not hard to program :)
OK, I have house neatening to do ... Life will be a mess the next months.
 
Aha, fair.
Alright, thank you again!
:D
 
Sure :)
 
 
1 hour later…
3:09 AM
Thanks for the comment @KarimMansour
I think I have just found another conjecture in geometry!!!!!
 
Research wise?
@Rememberme
 
No triangle can have its area,median,altitude rational....you have to prove there exists no such triangle...@JulianRachman
You can think it research wise but then the conjecture is very basic
 
it does seem very basic. I seems like something you would learn in a high school geometry class
 
Yes but people don't notice these stuff
 
Have you proved it yet?
 
3:20 AM
I just found it while I was walking in a triangular park
 
@iwriteonbananas The presentation, at least as given, of that group does not "naturally" form a $C'(1/6)$ presentation. So I am not sure if it is a $C'(1/6)$ group, probably not.
yesterday, by iwriteonbananas
Let $G \approx \langle a,b \mid b^{-1}a^3b = a^5 \rangle$.
Let $H$ be a finite group and $\varphi:G \to H$ be a homomorphism.

Then $g = a^{-1}b^{-1} a^{-1}bab^{-1}ab \in \ker \varphi$.
 
@JulianRachman I can prove that no equilateral triangle can have integral coordinates
That is easy.....
 
ok. cool @Rememberme
so what are you currently studying?
and what are thoughts on starting something like this (codeforamerica.org) but for the outreach of mathematics and for the love of doing it? any takes anyone? like starting linked brigades of communities. (just a thought :) )
Any takes?
 
3:36 AM
I am doing linear and abstract algebra
 
@Rememberme Ok. How about topology?
 
3:48 AM
I am really excited to start it after linear algebra@JulianRachman
Anyways @JulianRachman what are you working on??
 
@Rememberme Just working on finishing simmons topology then go onto alg top
 
So you habe done Simmons I have the book you even did Banach spaces,Hilbert spaces....
brb in 30 min
 
@Rememberme nono i am not "done" with it yet. I have the ebook. The only higher mathematics book I have is Algebra 0.
 
4:05 AM
Ah, Aluffi?
 
ya
I have to say it is a had text but it is quite intersting
although my understanding is a little hazzy
 
Yeah, it's rough. I came from a really finite-group-heavy background, and it's probably not the best book to learn group theory from
So seeing it in a new light is great! But it may not be ideal for a first encounter
 
well. I love the diagrams that are presented in category theory and I few a more use for the book through the categorical aspect
Ya. Definitely not much use for group theorists but leans towards category theory
 
Well, since my algebra backround was (finite) group-heavy, I picked it up for Galois and modules, etc, as well as to see the categorical language unfold in familiar territory
But I keep getting distracted in the group theory section
 
Oh I see. I am still in the topology stage but I see great potential in me loving algebraic topology and category theory
Right now, I am just too afraid of me getting into category theory now and then getting stuck and forgetting about everything else
 
4:19 AM
Ah, I wouldn't be too worried about that. I don't think category theory is very fun, if you don't use it to describe a bunch of different things :)
 
Ya... I just dont know when to start learning it. Have any good book suggestions?
Any suggestions in general? I am always open. :)
 
4:43 AM
Ah category theory i would love to know what it is about
 
It is about using objects and morphisms to represent relations. It is truly beautiful to me because I love diagrams
 
I love geometry
 
Sorry, I am not so much a geometrist. I like abstraction and cool continuous objects
 
@JulianRachman you have any idea on Godel completeness theorem i would really want to know how it works
I like Geometry like topology
 
I have never heard about that theorem
 
4:51 AM
It is used for disproving theorems.....(abstract idea ) without actually solving them
@Julian what will you be doing after topology
algebraic top
 
oh.....even i have to start topology....
 
Well, the path you are taking is just fine
We are just taking it in the opposite order
 
well due to Apostol at least i know and have an idea about metric spaces
I feel dont you require group theory for algebraic topology...coz the first chapters name is itself the fundamental group??
 
4:55 AM
So groups??
 
Ya. The simmons book has a second part for abstract algebra
 
Algebraic systems..
 
Ya. I think
 
You also have to do some spectral theory@JulianRachman i think so
 
Ya. But it is always good to be exposed to other things other than your interests
 
5:00 AM
Right.....
 
lol. I am going to a camp at Berkeley in August and it is on Game Theory, Stats, Computation, etc.
(not my thang)
 
We dont have any camps just keep on doing the maths you know many times.....
 
?
What?
 
people in my class are finding set theory difficult to understand and my professor has to do it again and again.....
 
LOL. Wait. You are at college already?
And you are my age?
 
5:02 AM
with his mistakes......$\Bbb{N}$ is uncountable
nope...
i am at your age lol
 
lol
but you said "professor"
 
we call him that
 
Oh. ok. sorry
 
they cant understand functions and are like how is mapping between sets related to the x-y axis@JulianRachman
 
LOL. My class just learned what a surjective function was
and they were still confused.
But I have to say my classes are quite the entertainment
I enjoy them :)
 
5:06 AM
i am alone on the river when it comes to chemistry... i take up a lot of time in memorizing.....without any logic
 
Hey! I am doing chem now!
I have a major lab due tomorrow and it is taking forever to finish!
 
I dont find any logic in it except the quantum part of it
especially physical chemistry
 
I love stoicheometry
(totally spelled wrong)
 
i hate making structures.......
 
That is fun
the lewis dots are cool
 
5:09 AM
My physics teacher introduced my class to derivatives without talking about limits and people are like calculus is so difficult
 
Lol gg
 
 
1 hour later…
6:17 AM
Why is there so little documentation on the tensor product in regards to groups - and why do we care about the tensor product?
 
Hi @Incurrence
 
Hello @Rememberme
 
Hey @Incurrence
 
@DavidWheeler is again gone.....really miss him
 
lol. I miss @TedShifrin we always come on and off at different times
 
6:26 AM
whats the rime over there @Julian
 
11:30pm
you?
 
11:30 am
 
oh lol
you at school?
 
No............... summer vacations
 
wow. you are soo lucky
 
6:29 AM
Its not about being lucky
 
then what is it?
 
My exams papers are being checked and our admin is very slow so it gave us holidays@JulianRachman
Anyways i cant play basketball and thats bad
 
Oh. that sucks....
I still have school until the 19th of June
 
My schools going to open at that time lol
 
7:09 AM
Hey @Emrakul
 
user61230
Heya!
 
How are you?
 
user61230
Doing well! Far too much work, but that aside, things are alright.
 
user61230
Yourself?
 
Just working on homework.
 
user61230
7:12 AM
Mm? Much the same.
 
I actually want to know your take on something.
 
user61230
Sure!
 
what are your thoughts on starting something like this (codeforamerica.org) but for the outreach of mathematics and for the love of doing it? like starting linked brigades of communities. (just a thought :) )
I thought of this after looking over some things on Facebook.
 
user61230
Hmm... isn't Code For America a political movement?
 
user61230
I don't know too much about it; sorry if that's a naïve question.
 
7:16 AM
Ya it is. But like a thing for like I said linking communities for the outreach of mathematics.
also like this: globalbrigades.org
a movement for mathematics
 
user61230
I suppose such a thing could have a place.
 
I searched it up but there is no such thing yet
 
user61230
I don't see why it couldn't exist, but I also don't see a pressing need for it. However, I may not be a very good person to ask.
 
And I would need LOTS of help
Know anyone I could ask?
 
user61230
Many of these organizations that pop up do so because there is an existing cultural deficit.
 
user61230
7:20 AM
Hmm. A few of the regulars here might have more detailed thoughts.
 
Ah, right. I figure.
Alright! Ill ask when they are on.
 
user61230
Sounds good! Let me know if there's anything else I can do.
 
Ok! Thank you so much! If I need anything I will give you a ping. :)
 
Mew
7:46 AM
Hello
anyone smart on?
 
We all are not necessary smart
 
Mew
Yes, that is why I ask
 
Does not mean we cannot do mathematics.
 
Mew
yes, being smart is defined as being able to do mathematics
 
Not necessary. But what is your question?
 
Mew
7:47 AM
the smarter one is, the more mathematics one is able to do
How does pooled variance between two samples differ from the combined variance?
 
I am sorry. I am not versed in statistics.
I am sadly not the right person to ask.
 
Mew
but statistics is the only real mathematics
statistics is where the monye is
 
Well I am sorry. I am involved in the abstraction of mathematics
Hey @Huy
? I do not understand why I have to be sorry.
 
Mew
abstract mathematics is the easiest type of mathematics
you don't even have to deal with numbers
it's just working with language and logic, on par with the humanities
 
? Can you prove that an empty boundary exists if a the sets of the space are clopen?
I love it because only few can understand the beauty of it.
Hello @Rory. Welcome to the Mathematics chat room.
 
7:56 AM
hi, I'm just randomly wandering by, got flag-pinged :)
 
Haha. That's great.
Feel free to talk!
 
it seemed like an unusual room to generate flags!
 
We all bundle.
Haha ya.
 
heh my knowledge of mathematics is almost definitely not good enough to be able to contribute sensibly I'm afraid..
 
Lol. Don't be. even 2+2=5 is a feasible arguement
 
Mew
8:45 AM
hello
Julian are you there
 
 
2 hours later…
10:43 AM
Hi guys
 
Mew
Hi
 
@Mew you can't just say that other topics in maths are not illogical
If you haven't tasted the soup yet how can you say it's bad
Its not easy it is as difficult as the others....@Mew
 
Mew
I didn't say they weren't illogical
 
You did mean it
 
Mew
No I didn't
 
10:50 AM
Your comments do
 
Mew
Did you mean to say that I can't say other topics in maths are not logical?
Or did you mean what you said, that I can't say other topics in maths are not illogical?
because not illogical = logical
and thus you are telling me that I can't say topics in maths are logical?
 
Yes I mean the first one.....
 
Mew
Well I believe abstract mathematics is very logical
and I even said that to Julian
I quote myself "it's just working with language and logic, on par with the humanities"
thus I implied his work was logical
 
But you meant that its not important as what you do
Mathematics is a linked subject @Mew what you do might have evolved from abstract mathematics itself.....it must have evolved and statistics is not the place where the money is if you have the correct way of thinking money is just an atrocious need
 
Mew
Stats is where the money is
Even the universe knows this, that is why the universe works on quantum mechanics, leading to ultimately a reality based on statistics
The world is far too complicated to understand without statistics and approximations, which provides maximum value
 
10:58 AM
Nope without abstractness your statistics won't work
 
Mew
Wrong
most discoveries in maths are made at the concrete level, and later abstracted
for instance, arithmatic was known well before group theory
 
Go take a book on maths if you see it introduces stats first before sets I will take my comments back
Sets are the base of mathematics
 
Mew
I understood statistics well before I understood sets
 

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