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3:00 AM
Well the map $a + b\sqrt{2} \mapsto a - b\sqrt{2}$ is a field isomorphism.
 
Except not over $\mathbb R$, right? Because of the $\exists c(c^2=X)$ thing.
 
Right-but remember that embedding the rationals into the reals uses the order in an essential way.
 
Say again?
 
Think about how rationals "approximate" reals
A "better approximation" means they're "closer together", that their "difference" is closer to 0.
 
And difference is defined using $|a-b|$, and $|\cdot|$ is defined using the order. I see.
But I'm not sure how that's relevant. All I know is that, in $\mathbb Q(\sqrt2)$, they're indistinguishable, and in $\mathbb R$, they're not.
 
3:05 AM
$\Bbb R$ is a complete ordered field.
 
To talk about "field-ness" you don't need the order for $\Bbb Q$ (although it IS useful).
 
So, you're saying that we can use the order to distinguish between $\pm\sqrt2$. But we know that they're distinguishable anyway, so what's the point?
 
Well, think of it geometrically:
 
> Small notation question: What's the difference between $\mathbb Q(\sqrt2)$ and $\mathbb Q[\sqrt2]$? If any?
We can't do a similar thing for $\mathbb C$, because there is no order.
 
3:08 AM
on the number line, -x is always 180 degrees from x, no matter if you go clockwise or counter-clockwise
 
(It is severely lacking in ordnung. Germany will be very annoyed.)
OK.
 
but if i just say: $i$ is perpendicular to $\Bbb R$, you have two options.
 
Right. And that's partly due to the fact that $\pm i$ are indistinguishable in $\mathbb C$.
I can go up or down.
 
In response to your earlier question: $\Bbb Q(\sqrt{2}) = \Bbb Q[\sqrt{2}]$
 
No difference?
Just a notational preference?
 
3:10 AM
The square brackets means the RING generated by $\Bbb Q$ and the set $\{\sqrt{2}\}$
The curved brackets mean the FIELD so generated.
But it turns out the generated ring, is already a field.
 
Ah, OK. $\mathbb C[x]$ is all linear functions, and $\mathbb C(x)$ is all polynomials. Right?
 
@David: If and only if the thing one is adjoining is algebraic :)
 
No, the first is all polynomials, and the second is rational functions
 
Ohhhh.
Gotcha.
 
@TedShifrin Yes, we are discussing a special case, adjoining the square root of 2.
 
3:13 AM
I get it now.
 
For a better example $\Bbb Q[\pi] \neq \Bbb Q(\pi)$
 
Yes, so I saw, but I always worry about specific statements being taken more generally. I guess what @columbus just asked settled that.
 
I see.
 
Forgive my interruption :)
 
lol, 's cool. keepin' it honest.
 
3:14 AM
What we were talking about before, though: In $\mathbb Q(\sqrt2)$, $\pm\sqrt2$ are indistinguishable. In $\mathbb R$, they're not, since $\exists c(c^2=X)$ is true for one and not the other.
 
Howdy lurking @Kaj
 
($\exists$ meaning, "there exists a __ such that.")
The question is, are they distinguishable in $\mathbb C$? If not, why not?
 
but $\Bbb Q$ still has an ordering, @columbus.
 
@TedShifrin ya, he's using the forgetful functor that forgets the order :P
 
And $\mathbb Q(\sqrt2)$ has two orderings.
Which is because $\pm\sqrt2$ are indistinguishable.
 
3:16 AM
But in the real world, @columbus, $\sqrt2$ denotes specifically the positive square root :P
 
Is that a pun? Because they are distinguishable in the real numbers.
 
And by "real world" I meant not $\Bbb R$ but the world in which we do math :P
 
So, no.
 
@TedShifrin note the term "positive" presupposes an order, though.
 
Yes, that's what I meant by "real world." :)
 
3:18 AM
Which is lacking in $\Bbb C$, which is why I don't know what the situation is there.
 
It's always difficult for students when we get to $\Bbb C$ and $\sqrt z$ isn't an actual function.
 
I think we tend to do the same thing with integers, if you stop and think about it: $x \to -x$ is an abelian group homomorphism.
 
I think someone mentioned that, somewhere up above...
33 mins ago, by infinitesimal
The same would be true for 1 and -1, correct?
33 mins ago, by columbus8myhw
@infinitesimal Not really. $(-1)\times(-1)=-(-1)$, but $(1)\times(1)\neq-(1)$.
32 mins ago, by columbus8myhw
Well, if you throw out multiplication, then I guess you're right. Addition is the same for them both.
(Will be gone for a bit. If you want to get my attention, please write @columbus8myhw.)
 
Right-the extra structure of "multiplication" means that we can talk about positives and negatives, because the rule positive times positive = positive is qualitatively different then negative times negative = positive
 
3:23 AM
well, the former is an axiom, and the latter is a proposition :)
bubye, columbus
 
@TedShifrin you positive cone acolyte, you
 
This kinda stuff is not remotely what excites me about math, but I get it that when people start out, the good ones want to sort it out carefully :)
 
@TedShifrin Only because you sorted it out a long time ago
 
to the extent that i think about the negative square root of two, it's because i think about analytic continuation
 
well, people have different tastes in mathematics, @David .... regardless.
 
3:26 AM
@TedShifrin ikr? for example, i like to put a little ranch dressing on it
 
and not any business involving field extensions. (though i suspect i should know a bit more about that kind of thing, if only so i could properly understand wth differential galois theory is)
 
well, that could get fattening :)
 
I usually put math on my ranch dressing, not the other way around.
(I am a bit weird.)
 
columbus, you said you were gone!
hi @semiclassical
 
I came back.
 
3:26 AM
hiya
oh, i was thinking a bit about the 'walking east' thing again
 
I think I'll just check back in every five minutes or so... I got this book I needs to read for school, but I don't want to miss the conversation...
 
there's different "ways" to view the complex plane. each has its own beauty.
 
I hope you didn't walk into a tree whilst you were thinking, @semiclassical.
 
nah. i've actually been home all day with a cold, ugh
 
3:27 AM
@TedShifrin Do you know "the explorer's riddle"?
 
is that what semiclassical was recounting yesterday?
 
one south, east, north
yeah
 
you know-one mile south, one mile east (or west), one mile north to return to the start
 
yes, semiclassical is mired in the middle of it.
 
so we were wondering, how does it play out on other manifolds?
 
3:29 AM
Well, there's an infinite number of solutions.
One near the north pole, and an infinity near the south pole.
(If, going 100 miles east takes you a full revolution around the south pole...)
 
right, we have the "north solution" and the south "family of solutions"
 
You need a trivialization of the tangent bundle, @David, for it to make sense globally.
 
the simplest way to understand the other solutions is: can i walk some distance east and return to where i started
 
If you start exactly 100m away from the south pole, does that count? Because you're hardly "walking" east or west...
 
On the sphere, we trivialize by pulling out a point. You can do that for any compact surface (even nonorientable), but higher dimensions get dicey.
 
3:31 AM
@TedShifrin Right, that's part of "framing it properly" the manifold has to allow us to ask it meaningfully.
 
and that's what i'd want to see a proper statement of.
 
(Go south 100m -> go to south pole. No "going east.")
 
thinks columbus isn't going to read his book :D
 
So, for example, the klein bottle is out.
 
To be fair, it's really boring.
 
3:33 AM
So my first thought is, let's look at a torus.
 
Well, @David, why? If you can pull a point or two out of the sphere and work on the rest of it, so can you do so on the Klein bottle, too. :P
 
I should mention that the two families of solutions are very different: In the north, the distance you walk east/west doesn't matter; in the south, it does.
 
@TedShifrin Because there's no globally consistent "north"
 
Besides, the Klein bottle has Euler characteristic $0$, so it has a global (single) vector field, which is more than the sphere has.
Sure. I can take a global north on the Klein bottle. I just have issues with a global east :P
 
@TedShifrin FINE!
 
3:35 AM
There isn't even a global north on the sphere. Where's "north" at the south pole?
 
NESW system, then
 
NO, I'm being serious.
 
(Or, either pole, for that matter.)
 
Well, there's none on the sphere, @David.
On the sphere, there's not even a global north (i.e., single direction).
 
(P.S. Whenever someone says "pole," the Polish anthem starts playing in my head. March, march, Dabroffsky!)
 
3:36 AM
@columbus: I won't touch that with a ten-foot Czech.
 
Czech Republic yourself before you wreck republic yourself!
 
/i think the way i'd formulate things right now: suppose someone gives me a coordinate chart for a surface (with some points removed if necessary)
 
... muble mumble Turkey mumble mumble
 
Well, @semiclassical, if you remove points, you can do so on any surface.
 
Well, we have to make some adjustments to what we might mean. I'm ok with that.
 
3:37 AM
right
 
But you're putting more structure on. You're putting a metric space or Riemannian metric on ...
 
and let me call my first coordinate 'x'
then suppose i pick some point on the surface, and start moving in the x direction.
 
Why do I have to read about Islam?? NO ONE CARES ABOUT ISLAM!
(With apologies to all Muslims in the room.)
 
That's patently a false statement, @columbus.
 
The book is really boring, though...
 
3:39 AM
that coordinate curve either returns to itself eventually, or it doesn't
 
I certainly don't care about Southern Baptists ... I'm very tired of them.
 
@columbus8myhw I can understand if YOU don't care about Islam. But someone does.
 
I wasn't being serious.
 
obviously, the question about whether it returns depends on the surface (and on the chart too?)
 
@TedShifrin Well, Brother, we need to have a l'il come to Jesus talk, then.
 
3:40 AM
and on what point i picked, of course
 
LOL, not me, @David.
 
So, let's say you pick a point on the surface...
...and you ask the people at that point whether or not they care about Islam...
(Is joke, is joke. I need to read my book now.)
 
@Semiclassical: You get into serious differential geometry or differential topology (closed flows, closed geodesics) with such queries.
 
@TedShifrin You need to be WASHED in the blood. Praise His name, hallelujah! CLEANSED of all your sins. Amen, brothers and sisters!
 
i think what i'm curious about are what conditions on the chart/surface are necessary to guarantee the existence of some closed coordinate curves on that surface, and maybe something about the distribution of their circumference on that surface
i figured, heh
obviously curvature plays a big part in the story, though i don't rightly know how to describe that
 
3:42 AM
@David: Enough is enough.
 
@TedShifrin Sorry. When the spirit moves me, I get carried away. I'm actually a perfectly rational person.
 
Sounding irrational, and perhaps transcendental.
 
makes a pun with the word "complex"
 
@TedShifrin I live in Texas, I'm surrounded by people unlike me in almost every respect.
 
a sphere has uniform positive curvature, every line of latitude is closed, with circumference bounded above by the circumference of the sphere
 
3:44 AM
So @semiclassical, locally on any manifold, you can find a coordinate chart with the first coordinate going along any nonvanishing vector field.
 
@DavidWheeler You live in Texas? Is your house, like, made of guns?
 
But you can make sense of the sphere thing on anything homeomorphic to a sphere :P
 
@columbus8myhw Worse-leftover trailer parts.
 
I live in New York. So, yes, I'm living in an igloo right now.
 
3:45 AM
where things get complicated in my head is when i take something like a slightly deformed sphere
 
That's why I was thinking torus. It has a hole.
 
Well, you could talk about flat tori...
 
Just take your grid on the usual sphere and map it over to the weird sphere by the homeomorphism (or, maybe, diffeomorphism to be better).
 
so that it's still homeomorphic to the sphere, and so i can still find a coordinate chart on it that has closed latitudes
 
(Like, a Pacman screen where the left and right edges are identified.)
 
3:46 AM
Yup, @columbus, in the 3-sphere.
 
...what?
In any case, in a flat torus, the riddle works as long as the torus is 100 miles wide.
 
To get the flat torus as having the metric induced from the space it lives in, you need $S^3$ or $\Bbb R^4$.
 
@columbus8myhw I was thinking more NES fantasy RPG's, but yeah.
 
right. the trouble is that it no longer feels like a terribly 'natural' chart, though with that i'm definitely not able to talk about generic charts anymore
 
Wait, question: Did the riddle say you were walking 100 miles east??
 
3:48 AM
Anyhow, I'm outta here. Maybe columbus will go read, and it's my bedtime.
Night, all :)
 
and i guess i don't know what notion of 'natural' i'd want, anyways
 
Good night!
 
night Ted
 
I think I'll go, too. Like for real.
Not!
Except actually, yeah. Bye!
 
@DavidWheeler: what i always remember in that vein are the multiplayer maps from Star Fox 64
they were each squares of finite size, and if you left on the right/left side you'd end up on the left/right side
same with up/down
think it was arranged to get a torus
 
3:51 AM
yesh!
 
@DavidWheeler: the torus is interesting to me because, if one interprets it simply as a matter of walking in a certain direction
then there's two cases: either the trajectory eventually returns to itself (in which case the 'slope' of the line in the aforementioned square is rational) or it doesn't (irrational)
in the former case, that rational slope determines the number of times one winds around the two loops, and one can determine the length of the trajectory from that
in the latter case, though, the line never stops and indeed serves as a space-filling curve for the torus
 
I started thinking about it like so-imagining $T = S^1 \times S^1$, pick a point (we don't care which one) and call it the "north pole"
Start drawing isometric circles around it ('lattitude" lines)
 
hmm. that starts to get awkward once the size of the circle exceeds the size of the 'square'
still well-defined, though
if i take the north pole to be the center of the square, then the south pole will be the four corner points (which are really the same point)
 
But then, I started thinking: does we get a south pole at all?
 
we do, yeah.
you can convince yourself of that by drawing four squares with one common corner point, and put the north pole at the center of each of them
 
4:01 AM
So longitude lines go from north pole to south pole
 
hmm
some of the lines of longitude will look weird in that case
 
right-what if i go "straight up" from the north pole?
 
yeah. then you'll eventually hit the point going straight down from the north pole
and then have to split left/right to go to the south pole
which maybe looks more sensible on the torus itself, but seems awfully weird in my head
the notion of NWES i had was essentially that of ye olde NES map
 
I think there's "longitude lines" that can't "get" to one of the poles.
 
i.e. north/south being just up/down on the map, and east/west being right/left
 
4:06 AM
@Semiclassical a space-filling curve should be surjective :P i guess you just mean that its image is dense.
 
well, i think that if i were to imagine the point running both forwards and backwards in time, then i think it would hit every point
though, hmm
no, i think you're right. dense is all i really want out of that
 
it won't touch most points, even; its image is measure 0 by Sard's theorem
 
right. all i want is for it to get arbitrarily close to any given point
 
If $A$ is a real $n\times n$ invertible matrix, is $A^{-1}$ also real?
 
(if it actually went through a rational point, after all, it'd be a closed curve!)
 
4:09 AM
@Committingtoachallenge Yes
 
@Committingtoachallenge cramer's rule
 
though what's also interesting about the torus is that, for any given direction (in my sense) on the torus, the question of 'how long will i walk until i get back to where i started' is the same for all starting points
unlike the sphere, where walking east always gets me back to where i started, but takes a lot longer at the equator
 
Thanks @David @Mike
 
which goes back to the point of the torus (in the metric i'm thinking in terms of, anyways) is flat whereas the sphere has positive curvature
 
Do invertible matrices have only one inverse? (I don't know much linear algebra, so I don't know.)
If so, then it's got to be real, because $i$ and $-i$ are indistinguishable in $\Bbb C$, so if $A^{-1}$ is one inverse, its complex conjugate has also got to be an inverse.
@Committingtoachallenge
 
4:23 AM
Suppose $AB = BA = I$ and $AC = CA = I$. Then $B = BI = B(AC) = (BA)C = IC = C$.
@columbus8myhw Matrix inverses don't work like field element inverses.
 
no, @DavidWheeler, that's not a terrible argument; let $A^*$ denote the complex conjugate of $A$. then, if $A$ is real, invertible, and $AB = I$, $$ I = I^* = (AB)^* = B^*A^* = B^* A.$$
since left and right inverses agree here, $B = B^*$ as desired.
what am I on? $(AB)^* = A^* B^*$
but nonetheless.
 
@MikeMiller I don't know what you're on. Share plx.
Also, the term "complex conjugate" is a bit ambiguous in this context. Do you mean, for $A = (a_{ij})$ that $A^{\ast} = (\overline{a_{ij}})$ or: $A^{\ast} = (\overline{a_{ji}})$?
 
4:38 AM
the former; the latter really is an anti-involution
 
What does Id usually refer to with matricies?
 
Id(entity)
 
I'll read the giant block of stuff above in a min haha
Ahhh, so I guess they are avoiding using letters to stop confusion with two many matricies(or something else)
 
Typically, Id refers to the identity function. However, any matrix can be made into a function via matrix multiplication with the proper-sized column vectors: $A(v) = Av$.
It turns out the matrix for the identity function is the identity matrix. Not terribly surprising.
 
Ahhh so it is the identity function (of the linear operator language)
 
4:45 AM
Also, the function one obtains from the identity matrix is....the identity function.
 
Hey there @TedShifrin. Just trying to finish up my complex problem set :P
 
@Committingtoachallenge there, they are talking about something different-a "change of basis transformation"
 
Yeah the linear operator form pretty much
Thanks for your help, I have to go now, I'll be back in a few hours though
 
ADG
hey my answer at here was correct, just ignored :((
 
5:02 AM
If I had a dollar for every time that happened....I'd have a dollar.
 
ADG
:D
 
5:34 AM
Is it possible to answer my question here ? math.stackexchange.com/questions/1177849/… Thanks in advance
 
I'm reviewing for a test, and of course the last piece I get to review is the one I don't understand due to being sick and missing class (yay flu!).. Anyways, I've been working on this project for a little bit, but I'm stuck on how to find the values for the quadratic equation. I thought I had the correct method, but my graph for the lower part
was way off.. so that's wrong. Could anyone point me in the right direction to find a, b, and c so that I can then find the equation for the 2nd half of f(x)? This is what I have so far: i.imgur.com/RlnVZjb.png
 
 
1 hour later…
6:59 AM
Please i need your help, any idea please for this : math.stackexchange.com/questions/1177206/…
 
Can someone help me at:
0
Q: Show that the point satisfies the conditions

Mary StarA round membrane in space, is over the space $x^2+y^2 \leq a^2$. The maximum coordinate $z$ of a point of the membrane is $b$. We suppose that $(x, y, z)$ is a point of the inclined membrane. Show that the respective point $(r , \theta , z)$ in cylindrical coordinates satisfies the conditio...

@DavidWheeler Do yu have an idea??
 
7:54 AM
@KajHansen do you know how we show geometrically $\overrightarrow{e}_{\theta}\times\overrightarrow{j}$ (cylindical coordinates) ??
\overrightarrow{e}_{\theta} is parellel to the xy-plane, right??
@MikeMiller do you have an idea??
 
 
2 hours later…
10:01 AM
Greetings
 
Greetings
 
10:29 AM
hi
hi @Chris'ssis
 
@Ramanewbie hi
 
@Chris'ssis what's up ?
 
@Ramanewbie I'm busy.
 
@Chris'ssis with your book ?
 
@Ramanewbie Also with my book.
 
10:34 AM
@Chris'ssis and accounting too, right ?
 
@Ramanewbie No.
 
@Chris'ssis weren't you yesterday ?
 
@Ramanewbie Today is not yesterday.
 
@Chris'ssis obviously
@Chris'ssis Then write a better book than their's and there will be a few less people on Earth...
 
@Ramanewbie When I see someone better than me I try to learn for that person. That's the right attitude.
 
10:39 AM
yes @Chris'ssis
 
@Ramanewbie I'm glad that persons exists and I have a possibility to become better. I never turn into a hater.
 
10:52 AM
 
11:51 AM
@Chris'ssis Hi I just woke up.
 
@ABeautifulMind hi, what time is it for you ?
 
@Ramanewbie It is about 8 pm now.
 
@ABeautifulMind "pm" ??
 
@Ramanewbie Yes, I am sick and I don't sleep normal hours.
 
@ABeautifulMind poor of you... Sick of what
 
12:02 PM
@Ramanewbie I have severe mental illness, hence the username.
 
lol
 
It's OK to lol, but I wasn't joking.
 
@ABeautifulMind weren't you ??
 
No, I have severe mental illness, like I said. Almost everyone in this chat knows.
 
@ABeautifulMind hi
 
12:27 PM
Hey @mats how is progress on Riemann?
 
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ Thanks for sending me the music, but I didn't like them.
 
@ABeautifulMind hi, no I have not had time to work on it. But I think it is an exaggeration to ask me on progress on the Riemann hypothesis.
 
@MatsGranvik Oh well, we can afford to half-joke in this chat! But who knows, you might solve it one day.
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ Why does your picture keep changing?
 
@MatsGranvik don't worry about that, @ABeautifulMind also likes joking with me saying that I'm a genius or Ramanujan. :-)
 
12:39 PM
ok
 
@Chris'ssis No, that is not a joke.
 
And I'm just a retarded. ;)
 
@Chris'ssis You seem pretty damned smart to me.
 
Some say modesty is the worst form of bragging. I guess I am guilty of that.
 
@Fargle Thank you, but it's just some hard work there.
 
12:41 PM
@Chris'ssis I understand what you mean. But you've made it as far as you have.
 
@Fargle Yeah, I understood that I cannot get the results I expect without extremely hard work. Then I acted accordingly.
 
@Chris'ssis Well, you have a better work ethic than I do.
 
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ To prove that $d$ and $d'$ generate the same topology on $X$, you have to show that if a set is open in $(X, d)$, it's also open in $(X, d')$ and vice-versa.
That is, you have the same collection of open set in both spaces.
 
Why don't I get chat notifications anymore
 
@BalarkaSen I think he should think about this himself rather than look at the answers.
 
12:47 PM
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ like this?
 
Yea @KarlKronenfeld I don't get notified that someone pinged me
 
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ I think sometimes they are faulty or take time to get through.
 
@ABeautifulMind I am not giving him an answer, just showing him the right way.
 
@ABeautifulMind The approach by Andre LeClaire to the Riemann hypothesis is to find a formula for the Riemann zeta zeros: mathoverflow.net/users/40588/andr%C3%A9-leclair
 
@JasperLoy I don't think there are really "answers" if there isn't a specific question
 
12:49 PM
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ Oh OK, sorry.
 
@ABeautifulMind

Table[N[1/2 + 2*Pi*Exp[1]*(n - 11/8)/Exp[1]/LambertW[(n - 11/8)/Exp[1]]*I], {n,
1, 12}]
 
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ Topology is really a collection of open sets, which I am sure you are familiar with.
 
Actually I don't know what the definition of an open set in a topology is
 
So if you have two collection of open sets $\tau$ and $\tau'$ on the underlying set $X$, then to show that these are same topologies really means you have to show that $\tau = \tau'$
 
I only know what it is for a metric space topology
 
12:51 PM
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ Look up what a topology is.
It's very easy, you are just calling some specific subsets "open".
 
I know the definition of topology, but it uses "open" in the definition without defining it
 
"open" is just a name.
 
A name for what?
 
A topology is the collection of all open sets.
That says all there is to say.
 
Yea but it doesn't say what "open" means
 
12:53 PM
An open set is a set in the topology.
 
@ABeautifulMind Have a look at this picture. It shows that LeClaire's approximation is pretty close to the Zeta Zeros:
 
@ABeautifulMind That's kind of circular :P
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ Say you have a set $X$
 
@ʙᴀᴅᴀᴛᴍᴀᴛʜ You start with a collection of sets satisfying those properties. You call that collection a topology and you call those sets open, that is all.
 
$\tau$ be a collection of subsets of $X$.
 
@BalarkaSen I said it.
 
12:55 PM
That's fine I guess
 
$\tau$ is a topology if $\emptyset$ and $X$ is in $\tau$, and finite intersection and union of elements of $\tau$ is also an element of $\tau$
The subsets of $X$ inside $\tau$ you call open.
 
The open sets in a metric space form a topology, and so they are also the open sets in the topology generated by the metric.
 
@BalarkaSen Finite intersections and arbitrary unions, right?
 
yes, i just didn't write "arbitrary".
 
Okay, my bad, the way that read, it looked like you meant finite union too.
 

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