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12:00 AM
@tb :-)
I don't think my wife would have appreciated it if I made a joke about going to 11, when we went to the O.B.
 
Going to 11?
O.B.?
 
@JonasTeuwen Going to 11: reference to This is Spinal Tap
 
Oh right.
 
@JonasTeuwen Obstetrician.
OB/GYN
0B = 11
 
Funny that is a completely different word in English. In Dutch it is "Gynaecoloog".
 
12:04 AM
Gynecologist also in English
 
Oh.
Maybe I'm misspelling it and I've added an "a". Let's see.
 
Obstetrician is associated more with the child bearing aspect.
 
No it is correct.
Okay, but both are gynecologists?
 
I think so.
They are usually called OB/GYNs
said oh bee gee why en
 
@tb That makes far more sense. It's hard to tell from the picture.
 
12:07 AM
As a job description I have written "Syntax manipulator" on facebook. :).
 
@JonasTeuwen who?
 
Itô!
The stochastic calculus guy.
 
Ah, okay.
 
Hmm, harmonic analysis wrt Brownian motion...
 
Brownian motion is something I should learn something about.
 
12:12 AM
It is quite cool! In what aspect do you want to learn about it?
 
about the only thing I know is that the expected distance from the start grows as the square root of the time.
 
Steel has this book "Stochastic Calculus and Financial Applications" but it is quite rudimentary.
Oksendal has a nice book about SDEs.
 
@JonasTeuwen I don't know enough to know what aspects there are. :-)
 
Ah! The formulas are the exact same as the ones on this watch!
 
In stochastic calculus we integrate wrt Brownian motion. So int F dW_t for example.
 
12:14 AM
@ElendiaStarman that is a wall clock, I believe.
 
However, I still don't know the notation behind 21_4.
@robjohn BAH. They're both clocks!
 
@ElendiaStarman that would be 9?
 
@ElendiaStarman 21_4 is the number that's notated "21" in base 4, which is 9.
 
@HenningMakholm ...d'oh! I've definitely got that now.
 
@HenningMakholm hi Henning!
 
12:16 AM
Speaking of which, I had a math teacher that would do stuff like 12_ten to avoid any confusion.
 
@ElendiaStarman Sorry, did you get that already? I scrolled back but it looked like it all fizzled into chatter.
 
@Srivatsan (many hours and a clearer head later...) It looks tidy. :)
 
@HenningMakholm Nope. Thanks. :)
 
My reputation just went up 10 points since yesterday, but I don't see anything listed for today.
Even if someone removed a downvote, it wouldn't change my rep by 10.
odd
 
@robjohn The reputation page doesn't seem to show new rep the first half or whole hour after UTC midnight.
 
12:18 AM
@HenningMakholm Ah, that would explain it.
 
It's been that way even before the profile pages were wrecked.
@ElendiaStarman Okay, then 0x0B is hexadecimal (base 16) for 11, according to the syntax used by many programming languages.
 
@HenningMakholm The changes do not sit well with me :-(
@HenningMakholm C and Java, what else matters ;-)
 
Python!
 
@JonasTeuwen So I hear. I should look into learning it.
@JonasTeuwen Is it more of a scripting language?
 
If you know C and Java you will not run into much trouble learning Python. Plus it has been created by a mathematician!
Yes.
Stuff like [(2**k, 2*k) for k in range(1, 10)] works.
 
12:22 AM
Is (2**k,2*k) a pair, or something else?
:2520676 what language enforces formatting?
null reference
 
Python. And sufficiently old versions of Fortran. But I decided it's too late in the day to start a fight.
 
@HenningMakholm Hmm. Is it the editor that does it, or does the formatting actually affect the meaning of the code?
 
The latter.
 
Eww, icky.
 
Haskell too, by the way.
 
12:26 AM
"does the formatting actually affect the meaning of the code?" - reminds me of that whitespace-laden language... :D
 
Haskell is a street nearby. Is there a language called Haskell, too?
 
@robjohn haskell.org
 
@robjohn Yes. It seems to be popular with some mathematicians.
 
Brainfuck is cool too.
 
That's it, Henning! That one's nasty...
 
So does anyone know about getting a hold of original work by Grothendieck?
 
@robinhoode check the nearest university library?
 
@robinhoode What are you looking for?
 
12:29 AM
Grothendieck is quite a strange fellow.
 
Just a general interest in his work..
 
Anyway, grothendieckcircle.org used to have a lot of material by him.
 
Unfortunately, much of it is in French..
 
@JM Not really. Given an assesmbler/disassembler combo it's pretty easy to do things.
 
@robinhoode Well, then you're out of luck, most of his texts are in French.
 
12:31 AM
Yeah, that's the way it seems.. However, from what I understand you don't really need to learn a lot of French to read French math papers..
 
(one of the better titles around...)
 
Intercal, on the other hand, is designed to make it difficult to do anything at all.
 
@tb Thanks!
 
@HenningMakholm Yes, that one is a brain-hurting thing too...
 
@tb Haha, the title!
 
12:35 AM
I saw Conway give a talk at Princeton about FRACTRAN. I think it is cool.
 
@robinhoode And here's another one in English: numdam.org/item?id=PMIHES_1966__29__95_0 If you click on G.'s name there, you get access to about 50 articles by him (most in French, of course).
And SGA is here. That should be enough for the moment, I think. Come again in 10 years :)
 
A decade, huh? :D
 
@tb Awesome
 
Good night guys!
 
But back to my recent comment.. How hard is it to read math in other languages? Does mathematical vernacular stay the same between different tongues?
Actually, Google Translate seems to do an okay job at translating the titles, at the very least.
 
12:47 AM
@robinhoode You can get used to it pretty quickly I think. But I mostly read articles in languages I master pretty well, so I can't tell how hard it really is. Here's a relevant MO thread on this.
 
If only the documents themselves were digitized instead of in the original typewriter format, it could possibly translate those as well.
Well learning French is not as bad as say Japanese.
 
You can also try newocr.com It worked pretty well for me several times already.
 
@tb It worked! Beautiful..
 
@robinhoode I wouldn't submit anything confidential, though.
 
As in?
 
12:59 AM
@robinhoode documents with SSNs, or any other information that you want kept confidential. You know, confidential documents.
 
One would think a visually oriented person would develop a better sense of when the prose he produces just doesn't look like other English prose locally.
 
1:16 AM
Okay, that sort of killed the party. Anyway, I'm spent for today. Bye.
 
Hi
 
1:38 AM
I am so glad that I have not spent much time on this integral.
 
1:56 AM
@JM Thanks. robjohn also confirmed the integral now in a different way... =)
@robjohn Thanks, @robjohn. That was a nice method too...
@tb "RTFWP" =)
 
2:11 AM
@Srivatsan Well, MH is probably responsible for that entry of WP. He's contributed this at least 5 times here already, just like the Morera thing...
 
@tb "contributed this 5 times here" - contributed what? where?
 
@Srivatsan This exact same example, e.g. here
 
Oh =)
 
@tb lim soup =)
 
I was unsure about the tagging here. Any suggestions?
 
[algebra-precalc] is out. [special-functions] is also not applicable since even with special functions, I don't think this can be solved.
Not sure about the [analysis] part, but I like the [numerical-methods] tag.
How about [functions] and [exponentiation]?
 
2:56 AM
@t.b. Hello again. Sorry for leaving abruptly yesterday. I tried again yesterday to prove the assertion, but in vain. Then it came to me that a subgroup of a topological group needs not be normal, but needs for the homogeneous space to be a quotient group. Therefore, even though every homogeneous space apparently satisfies the two axioms listed, they are not always groups, right?
 
@Srivatsan I understand. Someone will certainly patiently explain the purpose of counterexamples. It is quite an achievement to get as far as Fubini's theorem in order to learn this lesson... I tried to leave an explanatory remark.
@awllower Wait: let's not talk about topologies, yet. You can only be sure that a subgroup is normal if the group is abelian. In non-abelian groups you tend to have subgroups that aren't normal. No: a homogeneous space X does not satisfy the two axioms because multiplication is not defined between two elements of X but rather you have a transitive operation G x X -> X
 
3:12 AM
@t.b. Oh I see it now. Then can you give me some hints for this? Thanks here.
 
@awllower: I haven't really thought about this in a long time, so I can't give you pertinent hints, but I'm pretty sure I did it the verification, so don't give up! The idea is that you can find right and left neutral elements of each element and corresponding left and right inverses. Combining these and using associativity, you can identify them the way they should be. If you really don't manage to do it, why don't you ask on the main site?
I remember that it was fiddly. The reason it hasn't caught on is precisely this: you have to work a bit in order to get to the point where others start with their definition of a group. Meanwhile, you can just as well work with the usual definition of a group and read Weil's book this way. You won't miss anything important by doing so.
 
@tb Thanks for both the comments... =)
 
@t.b. Indeed, I see what you mean, and I intended to do this before, but then I somehow entered a mode that is close to skimming the book, the least thing I would like to do, especially to the book by Weil.
And thanks for instructing me.
 
3:31 AM
@awllower Well, I hope you will manage to do it. I don't think that Weil ever explicitly uses these axioms. At the latest when he introduces topological groups about a page later he takes all the standard facts about groups you know for granted, so there is no real risk of missing much that I can see from afar. I wish you many pleasant and illuminating hours with this wonderful book!
 
@Ethan: It is L'intégration dans les groupes topologiques et ses applications
I have to go now, sorry again. :)
I have not yet heard of it, sorry...
 
You speak French, @tb? // Since you have read that book.
 
@Srivatsan Yes, it's my first second language. About half my family speaks French. I grew up in Bern which is pretty close to the border between the French speaking part and the German speaking part of Switzerland.
 
3:51 AM
What an exciting discussion on Fubini...
 
@tb I cannot read any technical work in my first language, namely Tamil. Partly because none of the advanced material is translated into it, partly because of my english education.
Do(did) you face something similar when reading French books?
I assume you did schooling in German.
 
@Ethan I don't think you need that much for modern texts. However, the books by Bourbaki or earlier works need quite a bit of sophistication. Here's a MO thread on this.
 
@Srivatsan No there's nothing really comparable here. Both French and German have technical literature at every level (though since a few decades German isn't used that often for research papers anymore). I learned the technical words in French quite quickly, I sort of assimilated them as I did it with the English terms. There are some differences but not that many.
 
Yes, I still think that scientific communication in Indian languages is a distant idea.
@Ethan Oops, I almost forgot about your question. Tamil is an Indian language, and not a dialect.
 
4:03 AM
I recall being told "there are way better reasons for learning French and German than for reading old papers"...
 
India apparently has tens of major languages with numerous dialects.
 
@Srivatsan Each with their own distinctive accent... :D
 
Literature, movies, culture in general?
 
@JM Well, actually, I am not sure. I was not very aware of such a thing as an accent till I came here.
But yes, looking back, there were many different accents.
 
What t.b. said, @Ethan.
Precisely.
 
4:09 AM
@Ethan By the way, there's no single language called "Indian". The closest to that description is Hindi, the national language. But I can't really read, write or speak it fluently... =)
 
BTW Sri, if you don't mind a personal question: every one in your family has only one name, am I right?
 
@Ethan Till my dad, yes =)
We keep initials. So I used to be "N. Srivatsan" in India. Where, of course, Srivatsan is my name, and N. is never expanded.
 
Segue: The reputation tab is now annoying. I don't have to see what's in my profile when I'm auditing my rep...
@Ethan I take first names and surnames as separate. :)
 
@Ethan I made the experience (sort of) when I was digging in the Romanian literature for some technical results I needed for my work. I don't really know a word of Romanian but reading it was rather easy. Of course, it's a Latin language, so a lot is self-explanatory. I imagine that a similar effect works when reading French math with a good English background: many words are similar and the few clauses needed are quickly absorbed.
 
@Ethan True that.
 
4:15 AM
@JM I like the less info/more info feature next to the user name, though. (I don't need to see that I haven't written much in my bio.)
 
But the initial thing is seen only in south India. The north people had first and second names, I believe.
 
@Ethan In short, I asked that question in the sense of this.
@tb Yeah, but the real estate is still reduced. Yecch.
Here I was thinking that programmers most of all would appreciate a minimalistic interface, but nooooo...
 
Yes I agree. I created a link bar with direct short cuts to the tabs I need, so I hope I can get used to that quickly.
One thing I sorely miss (in the old and in the new interface) is that it isn't indicated who asked the question I answered. That would help a lot in locating what I'm looking for.
 
That would be exceedingly convenient.
 
So, (status-declined) impending :)
 
4:19 AM
Now that I think about it, has there ever been an interface proposal from our meta that wasn't declined?
I mean, they've stuck with the "Enter" submitting comments...
...we just got used to it, but I still think it isn't a good idea.
As I see it now, they do changes mostly for the convenience of SO/meta.SO/the rest of the Trilogy people. Others be damned.
 
@JM It's a terribly bad idea. I'm using the script... Anyway, Arturo's request for un-CW-fication is the only implemented one I can think of at the moment.
 
@tb I guess it isn't so bad after all. :)
@Ethan I would say the given English's propensity for swallowing new words like some linguistic ameba, English is pretty close to a lot of things...
 
@Ethan German and English are certainly very close. But French and English aren't that far away from each other either. At least I could rely on my French vocabulary to sound awfully sophisticated in my early English classes.
@JM I wasn't around when this happened, but I think the fact that several sites now have TeX is also due to MSE.
 
@tb Well, yeah, we were one of the first beta sites that desperately needed MathJax.
@Ethan Well, I like saying "ether" instead of "aether" also...
 
@Ethan amöba ;)
Fake German is cool...
 
4:29 AM
@Srivatsan *ouch*
 
Ouch indeed. :D
 
@tb You know about this, right? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_umlaut
You should thank me for sparing the n's at least. =)
 
Those rock bands can be ridiculous sometimes... :D
 
@Srivatsan Amöbe
 
...and I can't imagine myself using the word "diarrhoea". In short, I simply ain't that fond of ligatures. :)
(except when I want to pretend I'm Olde English)
"Amoeba" is also correct. :) I'm just saying I like my words ligature-free whenever possible.
 
4:37 AM
@JM So you would properly write diarrhœa and formulæ?
 
Yeah, if you want the ligatured versions. :)
(For "formula": I know "formulas" is correct, but I'm too used to "formulae"...)
 
@JM Just to show you some extreme ligatures, I have this funny bug in my fonts that makes this answer look like this:
 
"oe", "ae" are the usual vowel ligatures.
 
@Ethan Two letters linked together, like in æ and œ or fi fl instead of ae, oe, fi, fl
 
There are three things here: formulas, formulae, formulæ. // Q: Which ones have this ligature and which don't?
 
4:43 AM
@Ethan Whenever possible. :)
In the case of "formulae", I'm too used to it.
 
@Srivatsan Only the last æ is (properly) ligatured. It's a typesetting thing...
From OAE: a character consisting of two or more joined letters, e.g., æ, fl.
 
Ok, that fits what I assumed.
 
(I never can seem to remember the Unicode for proper ligatures, though. :D )
 
So @JM, you prefer formulae or formulæ?
 
@Ethan flow, fluid, fly, fling, flat?
 
4:47 AM
@Ethan Yes, you are right. There are such things as formulæ though. =)
 
Many typefaces uses a special design for the letter combination fl, because the hook of an ordinary f would collide with the ascender of the l.
 
(I was joking in my previous comment...)
 
German on the other hand has things like "Gauß"... ;)
 
Usually you don't notice it when reading text.
 
@JM *bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh* I despise that letter
 
4:48 AM
@tb Yeah, we talked about it before, remember? :D
 
@tb What do you prefer?
 
Gauss
 
(By the way, @JM, please feel free to answer my question. =))
 
Since ss and ß is ortographically distinguished, is "Gauß" even potentially correct?
 
@HenningMakholm Gauß is the correct spelling. However, in Switzerland we don't make the distinction between ss and ß
 
4:51 AM
@Srivatsan The formulae thing? As I said, I'm too lazy to remember unicode for ligatures... remembering accents, graves and umlauts is tough enough already. ;)
 
(and there used to be horrendously complicated rules as to when one uses ß and when ss).
 
@tb Wow, I never knew that. (first part).
 
@HenningMakholm See here. Similarly for Weierstraß, Graßmann, etc.
 
@Ethan I've found it tiresome to have to keep using a character map whenever I need to write names like "Bézier" or "Möbius"...
 
@JM The Mac shortcuts work wonderfully for me.
 
4:54 AM
...so I sat down and committed the Unicode to memory. Also the ASCII key combos for Windoze.
 
@tb Yes, I looked up there before I accepted your claim the first time. Weierstraß and Graßmann don't surprise me, though.
 
I agree they are a bit more obvious because the vowels before them are short.
 
@Ethan Nope. I'm just enamored of writing the names properly, that's all.
 
In one paper I wrote I had a big fight with the typesetter because I insisted that sheafification should be written with only one fi ligature (the second one) while the first one shouldn't have a ligature. I lost the fight, obviously.
 
@tb - why so? Why the differing treatments of the two fi's?
 
4:57 AM
@tb Yecch. You tried explaining that "sheaf" is the root?
 
@JM Yes, but to no avail. Thanks Elsevier.
 
Oh. Not shocked anymore. :D
 
@Srivatsan It's sheaf-ification. The two ligatures make it rather hard to read.
 
And what was the publisher's stand? Zero ligatures or two? // I presume two.
 
2
 
5:01 AM
Ok, they close the coffee shop now.
Bye all.
 
@Srivatsan Two ligatures would make it read like shea-fi-fi-cation.
See you, @Sri.
 
Bye Srivatsan
 
@t.b. - You have to wonder though... couldn't there be a simpler name for the process? ;)
 
"sheafing"/"sheaving"?
 
@HenningMakholm Shorter, no? :)
 
5:05 AM
At least that.
Well, I have to wake in 6 hours.
 
See ya, Henning.
 
Bye Henning.
 
i.e. he's supposed to be in bed instead of talking with us. :)
 
@JM In French there is the even more complicated equivalent of "to pass to the associated sheaf". But French people are more reluctant with introducing new words. I distinctly remember hearing a long interview on the radio with Laurent Schwartz where he goes at great length about the reluctance he had to overcome before introducing and using the word "convolver"
 
5:10 AM
@tb French are purists, remember. ;) They even have an entire academy devoted to language caretaking...
English doesn't really have anything like that, and that's why we have a weird, messy, and wonderful global language...
 
In the Swiss dialect we are quite liberal with using all kinds of words. We use a lot of French and English imported words (sometimes distorted byond recognition). That's one reason why I have a bit of difficulty reading German advanced math texts - I don't know the words they're using. Sometimes I have to translate them into English in order to understand what they could possibly mean...
(But I think I told you that already on another occasion :))
 
Well, not the "distorted beyond recognition". :)
I always figured each country has its own flavor of "English", "German", "Spanish", etc. But certainly not major distortions.
 
@JM One example is Tschäppu in the Bernese dialect. It means "bonnet" or "cap" and is derived from French chapeau
 
How does a perfectly French word acquire an umlaut... :D
 
No idea, but we adore those umlauts...
Actually, there are a few French words imported in German, too: for example "Schorle" (a beverage: wine or apple juice mixed with mineral water) - it's derived from the way of saying "cheers" that was common among French soldiers during the occupation in one German/French war: toujours l'amour, l'amour toujours. It became "Schorlemorle" and then later simply "Schorle".
 
5:26 AM
I note the resemblance to the Scandinavian "skol"...
 
I think that's a false friend.
 
I guess so. "Schorle" doesn't sound like something a Viking would say. :D
 
5:42 AM
Somehow I think that guy asking about Fubini isn't being deliberately obstinate.
He's just way too muddled...
 
@JM I think so too.
@JM To segue (mimicking you): how do I produce a displayed equation having an \ast as tag? $$\tag{*}...$$ and $$\tag{\ast}$$ both don't work.
 
Hmm... lemme check.
That is quite peculiar. One asterisk fails, but two asterisks are fine.
 
@JM I suspect interference with MarkDown, interestingly enough, underscore works... I don't quite understand what is going on there, you can't use neither LaTeX nor markdown nor html, but typesetting seems to be equivalent to using mathrm
 
Tsk, I had to cheat: $$\tag{​*​}$$
@tb I have the same guess.
 
So what kind of asterisk is this?
 
5:55 AM
No, there are invisible spaces in between the asterisk and the braces.
U+200B is the Unicode for that space.
so it's "left brace, 0-width space, asterisk, 0-width space, right brace".
Probably more trouble than it's worth.
 
@JM Oh, yeah, but I didn't think of that kludge, nice! I used this here, just for fun...
(the U+200B thing)
 
Why does this system sometimes force us to cheat for proper formatting... :D
Still, this asterisk bug is bizarre. Have you tested on MO?
 
@JM Same result there, at least in the preview:
 
Then this seems to be MathJax's. I tried the "backticks+dollar signs" myself. No dice.
 

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