The Periodic Table

orthocresol

12:46 AM

4

→ 3 messages moved to Trash

orthocresol

1:02 AM

@orthocresol Okay, I shouldn't call it a homework policy. However, I also cannot think of a catchy name for it.

pentavalentcarbon

2:14 AM

hBy2Py

2:37 AM

@heather This is definitely the sort of definition that I'd like to see it narrowed down to.

Definitely a definite definition that I'd like us to define for defining the definition of the definite definitive definition.

airhuff

5:17 AM

Ok, anybody, is this spam? Be sure to read his comments...just seems odd.

M.A.R.

6:06 AM

@airhuff Nah, don't see any specific product, and it's related

airhuff

@M.A.R. , cool, thanks. Just seemed overly passionate about it or something, but hey, that's a good thing I guess ;) thx again...

M.A.R.

6:22 AM

@airhuff Well, it's not uncommon to be overly passionate about stuff

They think they have an idea that will change the world

Then phase 2, search about it in the internet, or ask in online sites

Phase is 3 is realizing if it was easily done, real scientists would've done it sooner

Phase 4 is giving up

The guy is in phase 2

@orthocresol LOL classic

airhuff

6:39 AM

Ha! LOL indeed!

Martin - マーチン

7:26 AM

@M.A.R. RO can't edit messages can they?

M.A.R.

8:32 AM

@Martin-マーチン I can edit my own messages

Martin - マーチン

yeah well, that's what i thought

orthocresol

10:03 AM

@Martin-マーチン @M.A.R. You guys around?

M.A.R.

I'm more like a square

orthocresol

Haha

Martin - マーチン

I wanna be the pentagon

orthocresol

That's fine too

Okay lemme turn on my computer.

Martin - マーチン

You are still in bed aren't you...

M.A.R.

10:05 AM

BTW, I also hoped people didn't VTC questions as homework if they didn't explicitly ask for an answer

They quote a question, then ask another question

This shows they're trying to figure out an answer, not be spoonfed the answer

Martin - マーチン

@pentavalentcarbon I almost forgot to reply to this. We originally adopted the P.se hw pol. They later found out this wasn't working so well. They changed a lot. Currently the policy discourages hw questions. We are first of all not that strict, and second and more importantly our own community. We are different people and have different standards. Apart from that, I really want to move away from writing a policy to close things, and rather focus on providing a user guide.

orthocresol

@Martin-マーチン was it that obvious? :/

Martin - マーチン

yeah I can see your Pyjama

orthocresol

Ok. Now, here is a graph of amount of effort shown against amount of effort that is correct.

Martin - マーチン

@M.A.R. I have a feeling though that as soon as someone sees something basically resembling a hw prob, they cv as hw

orthocresol

10:10 AM

1 mar is a new unit, defined as "the amount of effort required to completely solve a problem".

Martin - マーチン

ui normalised how nice

orthocresol

Questions consisting solely of problem statements ("hw dumps") are that red bit.

M.A.R.

I'm gonna be famous

orthocresol

@M.A.R. It might be short for @Martin-マーチン.

M.A.R.

@orthocresol Nah, of course it's not

Martin - マーチン

10:12 AM

orthocresol

Of course, since it is a unit, it has to be 1 martin (not capitalised)

Martin - マーチン

Kelvin is capitalised and a unit

Kelvin

Noun: Kelvin (plural Kelvins)

Alternative letter-case form of kelvin
Kelvin n (genitive Kelvins, plural Kelvin)
kelvin (unit)

orthocresol

@Loong ^

Martin - マーチン

hmmmmmmmmmmm.... I was wrong

Loong

@orthocresol !

Martin - マーチン

10:15 AM

o/

Loong

hei

orthocresol

:)

Anyway, here are some more categories.

M.A.R.

@orthocresol I hate integration

orthocresol

There will always be HW stuff that the community will want to close, despite providing εffort.

That's the orange zone.

Top-right corner is amirite, where they've already solved their issue.

Martin - マーチン

@orthocresol amirite might be the whole part off of the counter-diagonal crossing at 0.5:0.5

orthocresol

10:18 AM

hm...

not to scale

its a loglog scale

actually, that would be worse

Martin - マーチン

same principle.... any question that shown more than half the ideal effort is a potential amirite

doesn't matter though

M.A.R.

Some AMIRITE questions actually don't even show effort

orthocresol

hm...

M.A.R.

They just say the answer dry out and say "Am I right? I'm a noob bear with me"

orthocresol

true. Ok, for the top-right corner, we can set the exact boundary separately.

@M.A.R. I'd like to dump that under the orange region.

Martin - マーチン

10:21 AM

i would find it essential that the thought process is include, not just some math crap

orthocresol

There's an additional region of questions that I think are quite dangerous

purple region

we don't necessarily have to close such questions (right now we don't), however they typically require lots of back and forth, and it's very difficult for somebody over the internet to tease out what is op's actual issue

lemme try to find an example.

That's right, for pure water $\ce{[Ag+] = [Cl-]}$. You don't work in pure water, though. You work in certain solutions. — Ivan Neretin 20 hours ago

-2

Q: Compare solubility

In this we have to compare the solubilities. But I am confused how can we compare it , as we are not given the Ksp . Ksp = s(Ag) x s(Cl) .For water both s are same . So solubility will be more or less in comparism to others

solubility

This is somewhere near the bottom-left.

Martin - マーチン

okay.

so ideal effort == compexity

orthocresol

I'm not 100% sure about wanting to close this section of questions. However we know that they don't fit within the SE model of Q&A

if you have serious issues with a topic, IMO you should be looking for a teacher in real life

Martin - マーチン

yes. main shall not be a chat, and chat should not become a homework circle

orthocresol

Now the teacher bit got me thinking about the general references close reason, that has been mentioned several times on meta

Martin - マーチン

10:30 AM

We wouldn't need to concern ourselves with stuff like these questions, if our userbase would actually use them damn down-votes.

orthocresol

Haha..

this was from SO last night, and also made me wonder whether the very-low-effort HW questions can be lumped under "better suited by looking for a teacher".

After all, the existing HW policy says: "But do keep in mind that Chemistry Stack Exchange is not primarily a homework help site; it's a place to get specific conceptual chemistry questions answered. "

Martin - マーチン

i think that would be a mistake and would alienate many people

orthocresol

how so?

Martin - マーチン

Well, we're straight out saying "Go away!"

M.A.R.

@orthocresol Hmm, people would do this to close anything that needs some computation

orthocresol

10:34 AM

I'm worried about abuse.

Martin - マーチン

when there are trivial questions, such as comparing the solubility of compounds, etc. we should have a canonical handy to close as dupe

M.A.R.

@Martin-マーチン Well, that's how they sometimes interpret the recent set of close votes too

orthocresol

@Martin-マーチン On this topic, I agree that (1) there has to be better user guidance, i.e. "How can I push my question out of the orange zone?"

(2) If possible, yes, close as dupe before closing as offtopic.

Martin - マーチン

@M.A.R. I know. heroin

Ideally I would like to close as little as possible, and then delete what was closed later.

And if we close than we should close with the mindset of wanting to reopen that question, unless it is an absolute no-fit for our site.

orthocresol

mmhmm

Well, then we may have to find a suitable wording to close the lowest effort questions, without necessarily driving people away.

M.A.R.

10:40 AM

"Consider blah blah blah" is always a nice wording

orthocresol

The stats show that very few hw questions get reopened. I am not sure whether that is a fault of the policy, or whether it is the fault of the asker, but that's how it is.

The wording I was thinking of last night, read this way:

M.A.R.

@orthocresol HW ranges from no-effort dumpy craps to people that honestly didn't know about the policy and edit right away

Martin - マーチン

I think that we need to change the general thinking about closing. What is closed is off-topic. This should not be retained - at least not in the long run - unless it can be improved to be reopened.

M.A.R.

The ones that come back and edit are few, the ones that edit well enough to get it reopened even fewer

orthocresol

> "As it stands, this question either does not have sufficient substantiation, or reflects too many misconceptions. It is unsuitable for Chemistry Stack Exchange and would be better solved by consulting a teacher or advisor. Please see <META POST> for suggestions on how to improve your question."

M.A.R.

10:41 AM

So it's not surprising a small fraction get reopened

!!greet/@Marlysson

Chemobot

Welcome to The Periodic Table @Marlysson! Here are our chat guidelines and it's recommended that you read them. If you want to turn Mathjax on, follow the instructions in this answer. Happy chatting!

M.A.R.

Another Mar

orthocresol

hm, there's some serious competition going on here

M.A.R.

@orthocresol When are you going to be done with the post?

orthocresol

I didn't actually want to write it up before bouncing it off a couple people first.

M.A.R.

10:49 AM

@orthocresol You can create a Google Docs doc doc and we would add feedback to it

Martin - マーチン

you can sandbox it first

or just use the cleanup git

orthocresol

Ok, then maybe after lunch.

In fact, if you think that it would turn too many people away, we can simply remove the second sentence.

(I agree with that sentiment, I also feel bad sometimes closing questions.)

> "As it stands, this question either does not have sufficient substantiation, or reflects too many misconceptions. Please see <META POST> for suggestions on how to improve your question."

However, I thought that it would be necessary to have one short line of why it is necessary to close such questions. (i.e. why it is not good for the site).

I repeated the word "necessary"..

M.A.R.

It's necessary that you necessitate necessarifying the policy necessarily twice

Martin - マーチン

I understand the necessity of closing questions, and also of turning some away and tell them "come back later". But this type of go away should be said in a way that those users have the potential to come back.

okidoki... gotta jump out of office now... see y'all maybe laters

orthocresol

just for comparison, it now reads:

> "Homework questions must demonstrate some effort to understand the underlying concepts. For help asking a good homework question, see: How do I ask homework questions on Chemistry Stack Exchange?"

heather

11:23 AM

@orthocresol if you think of one, please let me know!

orthocresol

@M.A.R. In all honesty, why are we closing HW dumps anyway?

M.A.R.

@orthocresol 1. To prevent stupid answers from rep farmers to maintain some sanity and credibility in rep

2. In a way, closing is the best response we can give to people who post questions that don't comply.

3. To allow for experts to spend time on better questions

4. Not to drive away said experts by making them feel home instead of in the middle of a shitstorm

orthocresol

Yeah, I agree. It is a lot about keeping site quality high.

M.A.R.

I know you'd eventually ask this

orthocresol

However, if we write that in the close reason "Your question is low-quality, and we don't like it", that absolutely drives people away.

M.A.R.

11:29 AM

Because I always take a step back and ask it myself

You think about this stuff for long enough, you start to question everything o.o

@orthocresol If we tell people what's wrong with their question, and how they can fix it, without it sounding too harsh, no blame would be on us

orthocresol

Yep.

M.A.R.

BTW, different HW canned comments can be a good starting point @Ortho

Not mine, because it's a bit blunt

But check, say, Airhuff's

hBy2Py's

Or hmm, Curt F.'s?

Maybe even Klaus and ron

orthocresol

I like what Brain has been doing.

He has been giving them specific comments on how they can improve their questions.

M.A.R.

@orthocresol I like my Brain too

orthocresol

Obviously, it is too painful for us to do that for every single question. However, if we give several (three or so) good examples of "how to turn a bad question into a good question"..

hBy2Py

11:37 AM

@heather I don't know much about the specifics of the system or technology, just the basic idea. You'd want to consult an expert if you wanted to do something serious with it

orthocresol

Hello and welcome to Chemistry.SE. As your question is related to homework, it is important that you follow the homework policy as described in this post. The bottom line is pretty much that you need to show all the work and effort you've put in toward solving the problem yourself before anyone will help you through your problems. As it stands, your question will be closed soon. Best of luck... — airhuff Mar 26 at 20:26

This is very kind, but content-wise the TLDR is read /q/141 on chem.meta.se.

ok, I should start writing the post

M.A.R.

YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY?!

orthocresol

I was cooking lunch. In fact it's still being cooked now, but I can safely ignore it for a while

It turns out that rice takes a while to cook.

M.A.R.

!!flip/Ortho's lunch

Chemobot

(╯°ਊ°)╯︵Oɹʇɥo⅋#Ɛ6؛s ꞁnuɔɥ

orthocresol

11:49 AM

You agree that SE is not meant to be a homework help site, right?

M.A.R.

Yep

Whatever SE can't become, it's because its format doesn't allow it

orthocresol

Thanks for using it's and its correctly

M.A.R.

We don't allow opinionated questions, because the SE format is tailored for specific responses, not opinions

orthocresol

Sometimes I wish we could simply ban all homework.

Then again, that's not very wise.

M.A.R.

@orthocresol Well, homework does drive considerable traffic here

Even though a considerable part of it is unwanted

orthocresol

11:54 AM

It does. And there is the occasional interesting homework question, too.

PearlSek

Hi there

M.A.R.

And if we're banning homework, what constitutes homework? Is a 10th grade question HW, no matter what? What about really advanced questions without effort? etc.

PearlSek

Chemistry beginner here

M.A.R.

@PearlSek Hi here

orthocresol

Indeed, we had that discussion before.

M.A.R.

11:55 AM

@PearlSek I'm a chemistry beginner too

@orthocresol It's hard to ban stuff, because we would have to draw clear-cut lines where there's only shadiness

PearlSek

I have a question, how do metals like silicon can be pure in the "wild" without being instable ?

orthocresol

Firstly, silicon isn't a metal.

Fl.pf.

that question answers itself

PearlSek

oops sorry

orthocresol

Secondly, it isn't found pure in nature.

Otherwise, our electronics would be much cheaper. :)

Fl.pf.

11:57 AM

so sad

PearlSek

by "wild" I mean on supernovaes and stuff

M.A.R.

Thirdly, why are pure stuff unstable?

Unless you mean they can be oxidized fast etc.

@PearlSek Interstellar chemistry is much different from Earth chemistry, but how are they pure?

PearlSek

i'll ask my question later wait

I got a little confused

M.A.R.

-8

Q: How do I understand the answers to the questions which are too difficult to understand?

I have found this site to be extremely useful but limited in a way. Often the questions which I ask have comparatively easier solutions but the answers which I receive involve high level concepts which I am not acquainted with. It seems that to be able to ask questions and receive answers which o...

discussion feature-request support

orthocresol

Why isn't SE format suited for HW?

Oh, that post is timely. I could use it.

M.A.R.

12:05 PM

Might be worth linking the question up there whenever someone complains @Jan is too complicated a person

orthocresol

I guess that hw tends to require clarification.

M.A.R.

@orthocresol HW usually requires so much back and forth which is painful in the comments

orthocresol

Mmhmm, I agree. I think that is our best bet

M.A.R.

HW is usually people not knowing enough to judge the merit of the answer, but we need them to accept

orthocresol

In terms of explaining why their question is bad.

M.A.R.

12:09 PM

And vote

The SE format requires one question, and one answer. AMIRITE HW deprives itself from that possibility

Also @Ortho the SE format isn't possible for hint-answers to be given, which means it's not helpful for OPs to drop their question to get an answer because they won't learn anything

orthocresol

Yes.

M.A.R.

The answer is unlikely to help them learn, but much more likely to spoonfeed

Furthermore, most HW is too localized to be useful for future visitors

@Ortho haven't read this in a while, but it might prove useful too

374

Q: Should Stack Overflow (and Stack Exchange in general) be awarding "A"s for Effort?

This just came up again: homework is not acceptable if the asker has made no effort whatsoever I'm developing a bit of an involuntary twitch that manifests itself when I encounter the word "effort" on Stack Overflow these days. Don't get me wrong — effort is good. At least, productive eff...

discussion question-quality

orthocresol

That's something like what I proposed previously: that effort should not be a criterion.

However, I think that is far too radical.

Those things that you have typed above, I wonder if I could make a TL;DR of them in this way:

Within the SE model, if you dump your HW here, the only thing we can reasonably do is to give a full answer.

However, if you were to ask a teacher about your HW in real life, they wouldn't just give you the answer key and tell you to scram.

M.A.R.

+10

Hey @NotC

orthocresol

12:28 PM

flag as too broad

0

Q: Good chemistry experiments/projects

Im not sure if this is the right place to ask, but what are some good chemistry experiments or projects that could be conducted in grade 12? Here's what I have found so far: Preparation of aspirin Synthesis of dyes Analysing the percentage of metals present in coins In my opinion, these proj...

everyday-chemistry experimental-chemistry

also, retract your downvotes on this:

-3

A: What makes heat resistant proteins heat resistant?

To be frank, thermostable proteins are stable because they as you state contain a huge amount of stabilizing interactions. [notice my dry humor] You state that the presence of large and complex hydrogen bonding networks would cause the protein to adopt a compact conformation, however you also sh...

It's gotten significantly better.

orthocresol

12:49 PM

Now, how does that sound?

There are two cases of the h-word that I want to remove. Still thinking about how to do so.

M.A.R.

Sounds great

@orthocresol Where?

orthocresol

The title, and the 3rd word following the block quote.

M.A.R.

Maybe change it to "textbook exercises"?

orthocresol

Actually, "exercises" might be enough?

M.A.R.

Yah, that'd do

"BUT MAH EXERCISEZ IS NOT FROM TEXTBOOKZ NAZIS"

orthocresol

12:55 PM

There's always going to be some subjectiveness, I guess.

As Marko brought up the last time in meta

However, I think that is an inherent problem with asking something over the Internet.

It's not possible to discern what somebody's motive is.

However, it is possible to add context to your question, so as to shift the community's perception of it.

M.A.R.

Yeah, and it's exactly why seals and Heisenbergs are made to discern on-topicness not just some algorithm

orthocresol

Ok, I am quite happy, I think we are getting somewhere...

M.A.R.

@orthocresol Yay

orthocresol

A wild skill patrol appeared

skill patrol

Sorry I miss read your message.

hBy2Py

1:29 PM

@orthocresol Hmm... nudging people with homework questions toward phrasing them as general 'how do I {method}?' questions?

Instead of 'help me with this exercise'?

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py That's a good idea. Most people would not bother, and the ones that do are the ones we wanna keep

hBy2Py

<nod>

@M.A.R. @ortho This is why I really wish SE Overwatch would implement the privilege for inviting under-20reppers to a private chat.

Homework discussions should take place in chat

orthocresol

20 rep is easy enough to gain. Ask one good question with 4 upvotes, or give one good answer with 2 upvotes. While I can sympathise with the 1-repper who doesn't get hw help, it's not much sympathy.

hBy2Py

Under the auspices of an established user with the time and inclination to help.

M.A.R.

@hBy2Py Well, it's something really marginal

hBy2Py

1:34 PM

Mm, yeah, I guess it's not likely to be applicable across a lot of the network

orthocresol

In fact, your 20 rep doesn't even have to be on Chemistry.

hBy2Py

Ooooohhh, good point

orthocresol

We can tell such people to scram off to Maths, ask their ~~shitty~~ question, and come back later.

hBy2Py

But, a lot of the gross homeworkers are brand new

(aren't they?)

orthocresol

They are.

orthocresol

2:10 PM

@M.A.R. @Martin-マーチン @hBy2Py chemistry.meta.stackexchange.com/a/3327/16683

M.A.R.

Oh yay

hBy2Py

@orthocresol There's a broader classification of questions: ones that refer to a specific problem, and ones that don't

Does all of this apply only to ones where a specific problem is stated?

I'm inclined to say 'yes', and I'm fine with that

orthocresol

Yes.

I know what you mean

hBy2Py

There's the separate matter, of questions like "Whats the inductive effect and how does it affect alkanes?"

orthocresol

Yeah, precisely.

hBy2Py

2:20 PM

That example would be VTC too broad, but.. yah

Ok, those are a separate matter.

orthocresol

yeah there is some overlap with too broad

hBy2Py

I really like your figure.

And the unit definition is of course classic.

I'm not sure if "lacks sufficient substantiation" is the best close reason re-word, but I'll have to think about it some more

orthocresol

I don't know too. It's the best I could come up with, though.

And obviously, it's subject to change.

hBy2Py

<Nod>

Might want to gray or hash out the lower triangle of the figure, since it's impossible for a question to fall there.

@ortho How about "...as it either (1) insufficiently [somethings] the concept or method about which there is confusion, (2) reflects too many misconceptions, or (3) is seeking simple confirmation of a correct answer."

orthocresol

sounds good too

hBy2Py

2:28 PM

wording is awkward, but this way it covers all three of your cases

orthocresol

The thing is if you take a brief survey of some other sites on SE, they also do this.

Lumping multiple close reasons into one close reason

e.g. Mathematica.SE: "This question arises due to a simple mistake such as a trivial syntax error, incorrect capitalization, spelling mistake, or other typographical error and is unlikely to help any future visitors, or else it is easily found in the documentation."

hBy2Py

That would be freaky if a typo when writing a chemical formula caused the science to come out different

M.A.R.

There was also another SE which I don't remember, which had a close reason "We don't want to replace encyclopedia sites like Wikipedia"

I don't remember if it was Parenting.SE or what

hBy2Py

SE can take on a certain didactic character that Wik can't, though.

@ortho, I went ahead and edited the sandbox post; take a look & revise as desired

orthocresol

it's great

bit busy rn, sorry

hBy2Py