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12:53 AM
@Snowman Enjoy it while you can. It does tarnish after awhile, unless you're already independently wealthy.
 
 
1 hour later…
user114359
1:55 AM
Is there a way to do the opposite of make a tag a favorite, make it so questions with that tag either do not show up or have a different background in the question list?
 
user55340
yep.
 
user55340
 
user55340
sigh
 
user55340
-2
Q: Can Ruby do the following?

Friendly Person 44Below, is what I need to code up/program in a computer language. But can Ruby do this? - 1) The software created on the disc which runs on a circuit board (or created on & runs on the faster hardware meant for it - IBM's TrueNorth programmable neural synapse micro processor chip) is going to: ...

 
user55340
1:58 AM
Ruby is a general purpose language. — MichaelT 53 mins ago
 
user55340
That doesn't answer my question. — Friendly Person 44 3 mins ago
 
user114359
@MichaelT of course, the easiest way to hide something from me is to put it in plain site. Thanks.
 
user55340
0
Q: If I write a code and release it under GPL 2.0 (or other license) do I have to follow it myself?

Hugo SadokI know that since I own the code rights I can change the license in a newer version. But does it mean that while it's under GPL I have to comply with it my self? Or can I do whatever I want with it? Like not disclosing the source or stating changes I committed after.

 
user55340
Find the dup... Go!
 
user114359
Browsing Movies and TV SE I mostly loathe the "identify this XYZ" questions - 99% are useless.
 
user114359
2:02 AM
Here is another one that needs to be nuked from orbit:
 
user114359
0
Q: How many lines of CSS have been written?

pavpanchekhaThere seem to be hundreds of thousands of web developers in the US (per the Bureau of Labor Statistics), and approximately a billion web sites (per Internet Live Stats), of which more than 90% have a CSS file (per W3Techs.com). How many lines of CSS do these websites and developers count among th...

 
user55340
Sic Fi are sometimes good things to read... but yep, trivia questions are problematic.
 
user55340
Found it!
 
user55340
7
Q: Use my own GPL licensed code in a commercial product

Andreas FreitagI am developing a software project in Java/Swing licensed under GPL v3. Later, I want to create a Android application which uses the algorithms of the Java/Swing application. This Android app will be a commercial product (sold on Google Play Store). Is this a problem, when I use my OWN GPL code ...

 
user114359
@MichaelT Every one in a while an "identify this" question can be interesting, especially on SciFi. But most are, in my opinion, boring and stupid.
 
user114359
2:06 AM
Although I have been introduced to new material to watch or read a few times, which is why I say "usually" and "most" not "all."
 
user55340
Sci-fi also has some highish bars for identify this...
 
user55340
and gaming is very high bars.
 
user55340
(Gaming requires media)
 
user114359
I am not a fan of high bars. If I can't put my feet flat on the ground while I'm drinking, I could fall off my bar-stool by the end of the night.
 
user114359
2:08 AM
Ruby is Turing-complete, by definition it can do anything. Also, your question is a massive wall of text. While I am sure you feel it is extremely important to you, the odds of anyone else reading the whole thing and providing a point-by-point analysis is exceedingly low. — Snowman 5 mins ago
 
user114359
Why anyone feels the need to spend that much time typing into the question box but can't be bothered to spend a tenth of that time reading the help center is beyond me.
 
user55340
> USE WITH CAUTION: These questions are allowed only if you have an actual screenshot, video, etc. of the game you want to identify; not just a description of vague recollections. Questions about identifying games in movies, pictures, videos, or anywhere an unknown game appears.
 
user55340
(yea! community closed dup!)
 
user114359
@MichaelT That means the asker is honest enough to flag it as a dupe after we VTC. I never knew about that until @durron597 VTC'd a question of mine on SO as a dupe, and I could close it as a dupe despite not having 3k rep.
 
user55340
2:13 AM
@Snowman Yep. Saves a few close votes from the community and gives you that warm fuzzy that you got it exactly
 
user114359
I still like this identification question:
 
user114359
4
Q: What game (rpg?) is this?

Cool GuyI've just found this cute and awesome picture from the web: The laptop behind seems to have a game running. I'm curious: What game is that?

 
user55340
Otherwise, you'd have to do something like go write a self answered question about composition and inheritance so others can find the dup.
 
user114359
@MichaelT I actually kind of like the Wikipedia article on that, and it is usable as supporting material. That might be the answer, because the need for having a dupe target is probably not that great.
 
user114359
But there have been a few times where I read a question about an inheritance problem and the answer is "use composition"
 
user114359
2:16 AM
Maybe the right thing to do is frame a question as "I have a problem with my inheritance hierarchy" and the answer is "use composition and here are concrete reasons and examples why" which is what I find lacking from the existing questions.
 
user114359
lolz. I just found a fly in my freezer, it must have flown in there earlier today. Frozen solid.
 
user55340
 
user114359
@MichaelT Nifty. I'm downloading it now.
 
user55340
The plan: don't get stuck in the freezer.
 
5:03 AM
"Hint" post at Math meta is closed. Lovely
 
6:00 AM
Well, if 5 users consider the post off-topic and vote to close, the post is closed. What is so surprising about it? It is in the reopen review queue, if enough users vote to reopen, it will be reopened.
I personally did not vote either way. I think that if it should be closed, better reason would be: "Unclear what are you asking."
 
6:13 AM
I mean, it should not be surprising for anybody who has some experience with per-site-metas that the question at least got some off-topic close votes. Are you saying that you did not think that there is a possibility that your question is going to be closed?
 
 
2 hours later…
8:16 AM
This question is too vague for Stack Overflow, and isn't a programming question. Maybe it would fit better in a forum or possibly on the Programmers Stack Exchange. — Kupiakos 33 secs ago
 
8:36 AM
I think that more people will be able to answer your question there --> programmers.stackexchange.com. SO is mainly code-oriental, less conceptual, while programmers.stack is more about software architecture. — Frederik.L 44 secs ago
 
9:21 AM
Sorry if my message above sounded too hostile @gnat. (On the other hand, you're post can sound a bit condescending - depending on how somebody reads it.)
The main point is that I doubt there is something which can be down about this on the side of Math.SE. And you did not suggest any concrete steps either.
The only concrete suggestion I see there is this one:
@NajibIdrissi it is not so much a "go out and tell everyone Programmers.SE isn't for poorly specified or incomplete questions" but rather "have this notion in the back of your mind and if you see someone suggesting Programers, remember what it is and is not. And if people are suggesting that '*.StackExchange.com' is for undergraduate questions while '*Overflow.com' is for research level, point out that this is only true for math and not necessarily other sites." It is about making sure that these incorrect memes don't take root in a given community. — MichaelT 16 hours ago
And as far as I can say, I have never seen somebody on Math.SE saying that this is the difference between SO and Programmers.SE.
Maybe I saw somebody suggesting SO or Programmers as a more suitable place for some programming question.
But this might be situation which I do not see more often than once or twice a year. So I doubt that any effort of mine would have any measurable effect.
Google search seems to support my gyess that it does not happen very often that programmers.SE is mentioned on Math.SE: google.com/… and google.com/…
 
 
1 hour later…
10:50 AM
@gnat Thanks for the reading. May I ask you why this question cannot fall into "data structure concepts" which is a valid topic according to these guidelines? I think the criterias for a good candidate in Programmers.SE are too complex, hence not understood correctly from users refering from SO. — Frederik.L 44 secs ago
 
BTW does this bot monitor only StackOverflow, or some other sites, too?
 
SO only I believe
 
I was just wondering whether from the comments posted by Duga we can see whether some users were directed here from math.SE. (In connection with the discussion linked by gnat in his last message.)
 
11:38 AM
Happy Coffee Day.
....coffeee...
 
 
1 hour later…
12:55 PM
So, computer is cleaned off of software and personal files, Chrome is not cleaned of cookies and saved passwords (obviously, otherwise how I could be in this room)
trying to decide if I should clean chrome before or after I give notice
 
@durron597 do you really think they'll give you marching orders?
 
@JimmyHoffa no
ah dammit i forgot my flash drive. nooooooooo
whatever, the only thing still on this computer is itunes
i'll live
 
I wouldn't worry about Chrome; it's not like they're going to use your cookied browser to start reading your personal e-mail or other such.
(unless those are the type of people they are)
 
the guy i replaced left all his passwords and stuff in his browser including the password to his personal trading accounts
 
@JimmyHoffa and how paranoid you are
 
12:58 PM
though, they fired him, he didn't quit
 
you can clean chrome and then log in in a private window so it deletes the session after shutdown
 
aye, use incognito and login each time you wanna start a session
 
brb
@JimmyHoffa back. ugh i use google for SO/SE login and I have two step verify turned on
 
lol yeah. sometimes two step authentication is really annoying :)
Mint.com is one place where having 2-factor setup for my bank causes me a huge headache
 
okay, boss is here, time to pull the trigger
me: hands letter to boss. boss: reads letter. me: do you want to talk about this now or wait for uber boss to get in? boss: give me a minute
now i'm just sitting here
 
1:15 PM
awkward?
 
i no rite?
 
@durron597 Note to future: You always wait until there's time to be taken away from work; and ask them to go to a private room (meeting or office) beforehand.
May be there talking for a while or not, but it gives them the opportunity to ask questions and not be rushed in either case.
 
Just try to think that your boss is probably just spending all his mental energy not to poop himself.
 
Yeah I was wondering if that's a bit of a "give me some time to think about this" reaction :)
 
@Telastyn right now there's just a high keening sound in his mind drowning out all coherent thought
 
1:30 PM
the conversation went okay
now i have to tell uber boss
 
@durron597 ?? You have two managers? Doesn't your boss have to tell his boss?
 
@JimmyHoffa i told my boss that i would tell uber boss
should i let boss do it?
i interact with uberboss regularly
 
@durron597 typically; it's kind of his job. After all, it reflects on him, but hey whatever, you know the situation better than I
 
1:56 PM
So I want to ask a question about how to do effective unit testing/TDD in an ETL environment, but this question is really crappy - programmers.stackexchange.com/q/278483/52929
 
2:10 PM
@enderland how to do unit testing / TDD is really tool specific across all environments... it means something different in Java, then .NET, in UI vs middle vs back-end vs ...
@enderland not to mention being terribly broad... I think you'd best bet would be to describe the exact scenario you're in, and troubles you see in testing it, and ask for how to handle it. Presuming you're having issue with isolating tests when you're testing processes which are integrative by nature, explain the specific scenario and ask how to isolate your tests cases; make them re-runnable or whatever else you're struggling with
 
This question appears to be very specific to software evelopment and not very applicable for other professions. This makes it more of a question for programmers.stackexchange.com than for workplace.SE — Philipp 11 mins ago
 
user41796
2:29 PM
@enderland Dup of how to convince management to pay down technical debt
 
user41796
104
Q: How can I convince management to deal with technical debt?

Desolate PlanetThis is a question that I often ask myself when working with developers. I've worked at four companies so far and I've become aware of a lack of attention to keeping code clean and dealing with technical debt that hinders future progress in a software app. For example, the first company I worked ...

 
@GlenH7 Trigger is pulled
 
user41796
@durron597 Saw that, catching up on the transcript. Congrats!
 
user41796
And I'm shocked you store any valuable passwords in Chrome or any browser. But I'm kinda paranoid I guess.
 
@enderland Migrate it and I'll close it as a dupe.
 
2:33 PM
@GlenH7 I have complete control over this network
I might be more paranoid at amazon.
 
@ThomasOwens ho ho ho, question owner is banned from asking questions :)
 
user41796
@enderland apparently because they don't know how to search. :-)
 
user41796
@durron597 Working as a consultant really reinforced my tech paranoia. The fact that a contract could close over night taught me to leave nothing of value behind, ever.
 
I've never had a migration that didn't even work like that
they must have a ton of deleted questions?
 
@enderland I'd delete the question on Workplace, then.
 
user41796
2:35 PM
@enderland That would have been my guess
 
user55340
Peer pressure badge.
 
3:04 PM
14
Q: Don't allow honeypots for questions that I've voted on, or that I've already passed an audit on

durron597When reviewing, it has happened that I get a review-audit for a question I've already voted on (this is not the first time, it is only the most recent). If I know I've upvoted a question, and I know that the question has very positive score, doesn't that defeat the purpose of a honeypot? If the ...

 
user55340
7
Q: Poor first post audit selection

MichaelTI had a first post audit today, and passed it... it was, well, too obvious. And while I realize that this is in part to catch robo reviewers, there can be some things done to improve it for the near-robob poor human choices too. The audit itself was this one. Do not select a first post from ...

 
@MichaelT @GlenH7 you guys live in midwest and presumably both own homes, how much do your total utilities run you roughly? like electric/gas/internet/city/etc?
 
user41796
$80-200 e / $25 - 125 g / $70 (going to $90) i / ~$60 water/wastewater
 
user41796
obviously varying by the month and that month's weather. ~1800 sf with a decent amount of insulation. Windows could be much better
 
user55340
Eau Claire, spring / fall about $50. Summer and winter invoke hvac and can go a bit higher (up to $100/m) - though last year I was being thrifty by being unemployed in the nude or bundled up.
 
user55340
3:17 PM
Water is about $8/m though that is for me, and me alone.
 
yeah. I'm trying to guesstimate how much that all would run in a house around here vs an apartment, we only pay electric right now and that is only like $50/month
thanks :)
 
user55340
You're welcome for that image of me all last summer.
 
user41796
whereas I garden / take care of the lawn. And my area has a wastewater fee that includes paying down some infrastructure bonds
 
user55340
(Ok, not nude - but pants were optional)
 
so about $400 though, roughly (I'm just trying to guesstimate here, my wife and I were talking some this weekend about future plans and it's hard not having any rough idea for utilities to budget out a house or such) :)
 
user41796
3:19 PM
All I read was "bundled up."
 
user41796
@enderland yes
 
user41796
I could do a better job at keeping my electric bill down, but that becomes a battle with the kids and I've got other stuff I need to worry about.
 
user55340
Ecobee > nest
 
but basically it means our total housing expenses would probably double if we buy vs rent a similar sized apartment..
 
depends on how insulated it is
 
user41796
3:22 PM
@MichaelT What I really ought to do is put in zones on my house as the airflow doesn't do a good job at balancing things out.
 
user41796
@enderland depends upon the rental market of your target city
 
user55340
Similar house and apartment? Or apartment similar to current one?
 
a freestanding house is harder to keep warm/cool than a building with adjoining buildings on either side
 
user55340
@GlenH7 zones are best, but they require a nest in each.
 
@GlenH7 yeah. our place is currently $785 or so plus electric of about $50/month (for a 1BR)
 
user55340
3:23 PM
Ecobee has remote sensors.
 
@MichaelT not sure, this is the question, if we move, do we... rent a small place and save for an eventual house? or do we live in a nicer rental and not save as much... life decisions
 
user41796
@enderland My place is quite a bit bigger, which explains the jump in utilities
 
user55340
Depending where, a house may not be out of the question.
 
user41796
^^^ This
 
user55340
Current house is HUGE
 
user41796
3:24 PM
a 3BR 1 or 2 BA is a big step up in quality of living IMO vs. a 1 BR / 1BA apartment
 
user41796
And the degree of privacy afforded
 
TIL I have a Colorado accent: We all use a glottal stop instead of a t at the ends of words
 
user55340
~1000 sf/floor. And a large basement and another bit with ultimately usable attic.
 
@GlenH7 yeah. I'm sure the "rent vs buy" decision will lead us to buy if we look at the direct "rent same place as buying" but we'd probably rent a smaller place than we'd buy, so it's a weird tradeoff
 
user41796
A 3BR / 2BA house can cost the equivalent of a 2BR apartment
 
user55340
3:26 PM
(This house is technically a 4BR but I really don't count one of them)
 
@GlenH7 yeah. I've guesstimated that if we get a 200k mortgage, that between that, utilities, and taxes/insurance it'd be in the $1800/month range (not including maintenance or other misc owner-specific things)
 
user55340
One of the first floor rooms was converted to a bedroom and bath (the oddest shower placement) for a previous owner's wife when she was no longer able to climb the stairs.
 
user55340
Ec house was $63k for 2br 1.5 bath. Double lot (nice lawn)
 
user41796
@enderland Seems a bit high, but don't know the locale you're considering
 
@MichaelT yeah. another question we have to figure out is the, "starter home? or not?" idea
 
user41796
3:28 PM
Even where I'm at, there's reasonable house stock in the 150 - 180 range for a 3br/2ba
 
@GlenH7 it's hard to say, I've been lurking on zillow/realtor.com and getting a rough feel for prices - we'd like to be out of the city (you can get decent in city places in the 100-150k range, and country 150k-250k)
 
user55340
While a personal question - consider how far out for family growth.
 
user41796
@enderland So you're adding the consideration of land into that equation too.
 
@GlenH7 yeah...
@MichaelT yeah that drives the "starter vs nonstarter" question :)
 
user55340
3:31 PM
City is a lot (or two). Country is an acre (or two).
 
user41796
So you have to take that into account when considering the rent vs. buy equation. There are quality of life aspects that you're adding into that mix. Just need to be cognizant of them
 
user55340
Rent has the "ok, this room changes function " but no other changes possible. Buy lets you change entire walls.
 
and spend tons more money doing so! :)
 
user41796
Or rip out the entire basement and remodel...
 
user55340
Have an office. Or den. Or hobby room.
 
user55340
3:34 PM
(Someday I am going to get a lap)
 
user55340
A lapidary (lapidarist, Latin: lapidarius) is an artist or artisan who forms stone, minerals, or gemstones into decorative items such as cabochons, engraved gems, including cameos, and faceted designs. The primary techniques employed are cutting, grinding, and polishing. Carving is an important, but specialised technique. Hardstone carving is the term used in art history for objects produced by the specialised carving techniques, and the techniques themselves. Diamond cutters are generally not referred to as lapidaries, due to the specialized techniques which are required to work diamond. In modern...
 
user41796
I think today's research is going to be noise isolating headphones. :-(
 
@GlenH7 What's your budget?
 
user41796
Up to $200, I think
 
user41796
Current pair is audio-technica ath-m50s
 
3:40 PM
@GlenH7 I'm enjoying my research topic for the day of accents.
 
@GlenH7 Can't help you then. I have a lot of good things to say about the Bose Quiet Comfort, but that's more
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa I'm actively avoiding delving into those as I know I won't get anything done today
 
@GlenH7 Just buy the most expensive pair of Sennheiser's that are in your budget and give it no further thought. And then you can go listen to accents.
 
user41796
@durron597 I'll take a poke at those and see how far out there they are
 
@GlenH7 They're $300. I have the previous generation (QC15), this is the current QC25:
 
user41796
3:42 PM
Ah, they are noise cancelling as opposed to isolating. Cancelling uses active techniques. Isolating uses passive techniques. Of the cancelling pairs I've worn, they all have a low frequency flutter that drives me bonkers.
 
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, Sennheiser headphones are great
 
@GlenH7 aren't you old enough to not be able to hear that anymore?
 
Done. $150-$200 + noise cancelling = ----^
 
3:43 PM
@durron597 you lose high frequency hearing as you get older normally, not lower frequency
 
user41796
@durron597 Nope. Of all my ailments, my ears are still fine.
 
I have these:
I like them a fair bit, though the fake stuff on the headphones is wearing off
 
I'm just two hairs more than deaf so I put in whatever cheap earbud is lying around with a wire that can reach. I don't remember the last time I used more than one at a time even; hooray for mono.
 
@GlenH7 Are you looking for in ear or on ear?
 
but even I know just buy Sennheiser and you don't have to pay it any more mind
 
3:46 PM
@durron597 overear is a lot better noise isolation IME
 
I think it depends on how loud you want it too
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa look at the northern cities vowel shift. It's interesting that Canada maintains a separate accent.
 
@durron597 overear can be good at this, or not, too - if you get more "studio monitor" types they are very good
if you buy ones that don't completely cover your ears they aren't as great
 
user41796
@durron597 prefer on ear. Haven't found a good pair of in-ear that's comfy all day long
 
user41796
3:49 PM
I like my Bowers Wilkens except for the lack of low end response
 
that too
@GlenH7 did you get an external amp? that helps a lot with that IME as well
 
user41796
@enderland I did. Got the fiio e17k. Made a world of difference.
 
user41796
needed both the external amp and improved dac
 
Yeah
 
user41796
I need to get the right cable so it can plug into my iphone correctly though
 
3:51 PM
Yup, if you can bypass your iphone's amp it's great too
I found that with the external amp my "listening fatigue" basically went to 0
I think that if I jsut use the ipod amp it must do weird things straining to work right
 
user41796
@enderland Yeah, I've noticed that too
 
I notice this on good speakers for home theater too, with my "pretty good" setup (~2k total for all speakers/receiver) I can listen to music very loudly without feeling like it's painful to listen to
 
user41796
The weird part is how finicky the fiio is with the connecting cable. I had to use an adapter to convert from USB to micro-USB. I have to have the converter end plugged into the tablet, otherwise it won't recognize
 
but cheaper speakers really cause problems
 
user41796
4:05 PM
ironically, it appears that I already have some of the better isolating headphones out there. :-(
 
user41796
Although my pair is circa '08 and I know they refreshed the line at least once between now and then.
 
I've put in earplugs under headphones before to
 
user41796
I've toyed with that too
 
user41796
Could wear my earbuds underneath a pair of ear muffs.
 
user41796
But the ear muffs I have aren't all that comfortable. Great for blocking noise, but not for all day wear.
 
user41796
4:10 PM
Plus their pretty ugly. But maybe that's a point in their favor. So the loud folk around me got the hint that they need to be quiet.
 
psr
@M.Krov I know one person (in the US) who moved from pursuing a PhD in applied math to a job in industry. He got a job working for a health insurance company, where he shared the responsibility for determining pricing. Strongly related to actuarial work. I imagine you have potentially quite valuable skills, but unusual enough that finding a good fit will be tricky.
(I've also worked with a junior software developer who dropped out of a PhD program in theoretical physics (string theory), then learned C# by teaching classes in it.)
 
user55340
4:22 PM
trends to closed questions.
 
user55340
The future of should also be looked at.
 
But should be supported still?
 
user114359
I see a future trend of deletion
 
user55340
... And now I have no votes at all left.
 
user55340
4:40 PM
0
Q: Lets delete "What is Java used for these days?"

MichaelTWhat is Java used for these days? was asked in 2010 (Java 6 was still in active development). The information in it is quite dated (J2EE isn't a thing anymore - incidentally, it was Java 6 that got rid of J2SE and J2EE). Android is refered to as 'new'. Some of the answers are no more than one se...

 
5:15 PM
@GlenH7 @MichaelT so looking into rents, you can get a 1000 sqft 2br/1ba apartment for mid $700s... lol.
 
user41796
sounds about right
 
user41796
A fair comparison would be a 3br / 2ba in the same part of town
 
Yeah
 
@ThomasOwens +1 for your answer on Does Algorithm Design belong to Software Engineering. I would only point out that, based on my recent experience interviewing with companies like Amazon and Google, they are apparently not looking for Software Engineers, but rather Computer Scientists.
 
user41796
And then compare the 4br / 2ba to the 4br / 2ba out in the country that you want
 
5:17 PM
@RobertHarvey Yes. And it's dumb.
 
@GlenH7 want? or might actually buy? :P
 
user41796
yes
 
Or at least hipster Computer Scientists fresh out of college with no practical experience.
 
I'm sure they need computer scientists. But they also need software engineers. Who else will handle the requirements development / management, the architecture, the technical docs, the test.
 
That's what I'm saying.
[tables discussion about subtle age discrimination for another time]
 
5:20 PM
@GlenH7 the problem with this is you can always buy more. "Just another $20k!" yourself to death :)
 
user41796
yep
 
user41796
quite easily
 
user41796
a 3br / 2ba is a great starter house
 
user41796
gives you a bit of space, buys time before the family (if any) starts rolling along. Let's you figure out what you like / need / want in a house before moving to something else that accommodates more of your then-life
 
yup
I don't really like the idea of a starter home, but it seems to make alot of financial sense...
 
user41796
5:25 PM
@enderland Consider it a hedge against future change
 
user41796
Starter homes are a lot easier to resell
 
It's a good time to buy a home. The next 5 years or so will be a time of appreciation, unless the economy tanks again.
 
I'd love for a housing crash right now :P
 
user41796
There is likely some degree of (hopefully good) change in your 3 - 5 - 10(?) year horizon. Having a more easily sold home is a hedge against the nature of that change
 
That's a good perspective
 
5:26 PM
The term is "abomination." — Robert Harvey 50 secs ago
 
user41796
@enderland I have several friends who got "trapped" in their houses when markets softened. They had bought at a price point that was a noticeable notch above the average home buyer but well below what would be considered upper end housing stock. That created a double whammy of not having any buyers available when they needed to sell.
 
@GlenH7 we intend to put down at least 20% (which helps with this problem)
 
user41796
The experience really taught me to carefully evaluate existing housing market conditions and where I thought the trends were headed
 
user114359
@GlenH7 I bought my last house about 3 months before the housing bubble collapsed, cutting the value of my house by 50%
 
user41796
PMI is for suckers
 
user41796
5:31 PM
@Snowman ouchy ouchy ouch!
 
hopefully it's back now?
 
user114359
@GlenH7 eh, the foreclosure is ancient history now according to my credit report...
 
user41796
Although I sold my last house about 1.5 months before that market collapsed. Amazingly fortunate timing
 
user114359
(foreclosure caused by other ouchy circumstances beyond my control)
 
user41796
@enderland Some parts of the country (I'm looking at you AZ) got wildly out of proportion with what the people living there could afford. No other option except bankruptcy and watch valuations go through the floor
 
5:33 PM
I think that a fair bit of the "vacation real estate" is still somewhat recovering
I know in midwest at least prices are still pretty depressed from the height
 
user41796
I'm relatively certain the folk who bought my house sold / foreclosed within a year or two. They had financed 100% of it with a pair of 90 / 10 loans
 
user114359
@GlenH7 I hope the market learned a lesson with that one... if nothing else, buyers hopefully won't be chomping at the bit to overextend even if the banks let them.
 
user41796
@enderland local economic policies have really hampered that recovery
 
user41796
@Snowman I don't like being pessimistic, but I don't think any lessons were really learned.
 
@Snowman I doubt it, I know a lot of people who have done similar 0% down buy a home things
 
user41796
5:34 PM
Periodically, I still hear advertisements for exotic loans that simply shouldn't be touched
 
@GlenH7 yeah I hear crap like this too and cry a little
 
user114359
@GlenH7 try to find an ARM anymore. Sure, they are out there, but they aren't nearly as common
 
while 50% reduction can kill your situation, it doesn't take 50% down in your home value to get you trapped there if you put down 0%
 
user114359
@GlenH7 Some of those exotic loans make sense, but not for your typical home buyer
 
well when rates are so low an ARM is pointless
 
user41796
5:36 PM
@Snowman My rule of thumb is that if you're sophisticated enough to understand the loan, it's highly likely you don't want the loan
 
user114359
@GlenH7 example: interest-only loans make sense if you have a lot of capital, want the short-term interest deduction, are buying investment property, and are very confident the value will go up by an amount to make it profitable.
 
user114359
I have known people who used some of those exotic loans that are utter crap for your typical "I work for a living and want to buy a primary residence" person
 
@Snowman the lauded "mortgage interest deduction" is one of the biggest marketing schemes ever concocted
"sure, I'll pay $1000 in interest to save $300 on taxes!"
yes, it helps offset the cost of the loan (lowering effective interest rate), but it's not optimal for people who otherwise could not pay mortgage interest
/rant
 
user114359
@enderland I agree, I would rather just pay less on the mortgage.
 
user41796
@enderland Well, there's more to it than that as it can move you into different tax brackets
 
5:39 PM
@GlenH7 eh, minimal impact (it is an above the line deduction I believe though)
 
user114359
And my point is these exotic loans types make sense for wealthy people buying and selling investment property who want to save a little extra
 
user114359
The real problem is back when regular home buyers got sucked into some of these exotic mortgage types
 
nope, guess it's below the line - so it's basically no real impact on your tax rate
 
user41796
My concern is that a lot of those exotic loans were shopped to Joe 8-to-5 who doesn't understand how that vehicle really works.
 
user114359
^^^ this
 
user41796
5:40 PM
@enderland Minimizes your basis below the line. Not as attractive as an above the line cut, but still of value
 
@GlenH7 yeah, but it'd still be better not paying the interest
all it does at that point is slightly reduce your effective interest rate
 
user114359
If nothing else, I hope this is the lesson learned from the housing fiasco: stick to a standard 20-30 year fixed rate mortgage. But like @GlenH7 said earlier, it is doubtful if that lesson will stick long-term.
 
and still requires you to have something like 12k itemizable deductions to even provide any benefit
if you are married and have 10k in mortgage interest, unless you have at least 2.4k in other itemizable deductions... it's zero benefit
 
question for the room
 
user41796
@durron597 go ahead. We're arguing the different sides of the same coin. :-)
 
5:42 PM
a friend recently told me that when I move to Seattle, I should not rent, I should buy. The idea being that, once I decide to move out, I should keep the property and have a management company manage it for me
 
user114359
@enderland my wife and I use the standard deduction. There just isn't enough interest paid. She scrapes the bottom of the barrel looking for ways to deduct more. I tell her that she could spend a week searching and save us $15 in taxes, and her time is worth more than that.
 
I could keep doing this as I build wealth, and then possibly sell them all tax free after retirement
 
@Snowman this is partially why I think the "mortgage interest deduction" is a marketing coup for banks
 
Well, hopefully we'll elect a president in 2016 that can follow through on his promise to simplify the tax code
 
user114359
@durron597 All bills originate in Congress, but go ahead, ask the President to do it :-)
 
5:44 PM
@Snowman This is why I phrased it the way I did
 
user114359
Which is why I find it hilarious when a Senator or Representative makes huge promises if we elect him, when he could be doing it all now (e.g. Bernie Sanders this time around)
 
user41796
@durron597 So.... That's a kind of a big subject to delve into
 
It's also gambling to buy property assuming appreciation
 
@GlenH7 He says I should be able to do it with only 5% down
 
a lot of real estate appreciates at inflation
 
user114359
5:45 PM
But anyway, I would rent at first for a few months until you know you are in it at least medium term. Gives you time to learn the area too, network, communicate.
 
user41796
@durron597 Yes, you can do so with 5% down. Not sure you want to do so
 
user41796
I think renting for a bit before buying is a very smart idea. Buys you time in order to survey the areas and decide what you like
 
user114359
You certainly could hire a company to manage it for you and plenty of people do that. But they cost money, and you likely will not make much in the long term (but you will make money if you buy outside the ghetto)
 
@enderland the idea is that even if it inflates at appreciation, my money is going into building wealth instead of paying rent to somebody.
@Snowman He says most management companies are 7%.
 
@durron597 that's flawed mathematical logic though in many cases
 
user41796
5:47 PM
As far as long term ... You'll know in 6 months how much you like the job and how long you think you'll be there. If you're happy enough in 6 months, then buy
 
user41796
@durron597 It's a valid enough approach, but it's not risk free either
 
user114359
Never underestimate the ability of being able to walk away after those 6 months commitment-free.
 
many many many people buy rental property and then end up making nothing or even losing money long term (especially when compared to alternative modes of investment)
 
@enderland why?
 
user41796
I'd definitely agree with the value of being able to walk away if need be
 
5:49 PM
because mortgage payments are more than rent payments, is that why?
 
@durron597 rent is not throwing away money
 
user41796
@durron597 it's mortgage payments vs. (rent payments * occupancy rate)
 
@enderland because I'm paying someone to fix lightbulbs and the dishwasher?
 
user41796
if your property sits vacant, then you're losing money to the mortgage and management company
 
@durron597 no. But you can't just do "rent is $1000, mortgage is $750, I'm auto making money"
 
5:50 PM
@enderland i might not make money on the rent, but i will if i can sell it tax free at retirement, no?
 
however, nearly everyone who looks at rental property looks only at fixed expenses (mortgage, rent, property management) and ignores all other costs
@durron597 sure, but you should be thinking about other things
 
as long as i break even on the tenant + expenses
 
user41796
@durron597 You can only sell your primary residence as tax free
 
user41796
investment properties don't count as your primary residence
 
like, for example, by maxing our $18000 in your 401k you are immediately getting a 30%+ tax savings
plus what @GlenH7 said
 
5:51 PM
@enderland that's just an opportunity cost
if i have the money to do both, then woot.
Do I have to pay the management company even if the property is vacant?
 
user41796
of course
 
user41796
just because you're not getting paid doesn't mean they're not going to get paid
 
user114359
@durron597 If it is vacant they are still taking care of it and looking for tenants
 
@GlenH7 why of course? part of their job is to fill the property
but why would they ever bother to fill the property? it's free money for them
 
user114359
They should be entering the property on a regular basis looking for damage e.g. copper thievery.
 
user114359
5:54 PM
@durron597 because you signed a contract with them stating that they will try to keep the property occupied
 
user41796
@durron597 because they would get dropped as the management company
 
true
 
user41796
 
user41796
You want to read that bit before venturing into the investment property world
 
user114359
@GlenH7 the long and short of it is don't get wrapped up in investment property unless that property (or properties) will make you enough to be profitable after you pay for a tax accountant
 
5:56 PM
@durron597 I've read a good rule of thumb for evaluating rental property is you should be able to get 1% of the property value in rent a month
it'll seem super high, probably, but if you properly factor in all expenses... it seems reasonable
 
user41796
@durron597 - what your friend may also be suggesting is that you keep the investment property but claim that's your principal residence. Which means you're still a resident of Washington and therefore don't pay income taxes.
 
user41796
I don't know enough about state tax laws to comment on whether that's a valid approach or not. Texas also lacks a state income tax, but makes up for it with property taxes.
 
@GlenH7 that sounds like tax fraud :P
 
The same friend also said "if your offer doesn't make the property owner cry, it's too high" lol
 
user41796
@enderland It fails to clear a few of my initial "sniff checks" but I'll also openly state that I haven't investigated that approach at all.
 
user114359
6:06 PM
@GlenH7 That normally only works in some very specific legal circumstances. For example, when I was active duty military I could claim the address from which I entered military service for tax purposes.
 
user41796
@Snowman That was my understanding too. But there are some who take a ... creative? ... view towards those topics.
 
user114359
@GlenH7 Yes... "creative"... ;-)
 
user55340
@GlenH7 just putting that meta up there to make certain SE types have an opportunity to chime in.
 
user55340
And for reference on the anon feedback: data.stackexchange.com/programmers/query/220020/…
 
user41796
I figured as much. But that wasn't going to stop me from dropping a VTD
 
6:20 PM
There are runners here right?
0
Q: What current race distance and time should I use for creating a workout plan?

Thomas OwensThere are a few tools that take inputs of a recent race distance and time along with the race that you are training for and date. In 2015, I ran four races of three different distances - 2 5ks, a 10k, and a half marathon. In 2016, I'm planning on running 2-4 5ks, 1-2 10ks, a 15k, and a half marat...

 
user41796
@ThomasOwens @enderland & @durron597 are your best bets
 
user114359
I used to be a runner, 30+ miles per week. Now I'm fat.
 
Also, I totally went (I won't call it "ran") almost 9 miles on a sprained ankle yesterday. Because I was going to finish and get my ultra cool medals.
 
user114359
With races like that, i.e. running not sprinting, it always helps to train for an extra 10%-20% beyond what the race is. You want extra endurance because you will push yourself more during the actual race.
 
my shin killed me earlier this summer
 
psr
6:22 PM
@enderland It's huge for me.
 
@psr do you have many other itemizable deductions thogh?
 
up to three pages of documentation written so far. wheeeee
 
@Snowman Yeah. I didn't have enough time for many longer runs. I did run longer. Apparently, my shoes helped prevent a worse ankle injury, though. I wear shoes made for street running that provide extra ankle support.
 
user41796
@durron597 So they're punishing you for leaving? :-D
 
@durron597 at this point you're a speculator; I would agree 100% if you know that the value of the property will increase the amount you pay in taxes/interest/maintenance over the time you live there. The worst case scenario is you just sell when you leave - and if you aren't recouping the principal you built no wealth. Best case is you do the rent thing, but I'm a plan-for-worst person, so if it were me I'd be looking at whether the value would increase enough to cover the overhead in transfers
 
user114359
6:34 PM
@JimmyHoffa raises another good point: every sale, every refinance costs money
 
It probably would depending on a variety of factors, but is Seattle near it's cieling right now? Is it in a bubble? I have no idea, these are the questions you'll want to ask if you want to commit to a speculative investment which is what you're talking about.
Also location counts; there's places all over Denver I can tell you are definitely bumping the ceiling or stuck their head through and are presently declaring "Wow, what a vaulted cieling we have here!", but other areas and price ranges have not only plenty of room, but are currently growing like the dickens (Hello lower-middle class housing, how do you like your population boom?)
The money you're thinking about flushing down the toilet if you rent considering how expensive Seattle is makes it worth definitely looking at a short-term mortgage instead, just beware what the costs are and plan for the "I don't want to manage a rental" possibility.
 
Belongs on Programmers Stack Exchange site. — Jacob 47 secs ago
@Jacob Implementation aspects of tools belong on SO, not on Programmers. — GlenH7 13 secs ago
 
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