The Whiteboard

user55340

5:00 AM

Though as I said, I like to code. I'd likely rather being a civil servant (job title) for a state agency writing code than a manager+ for a consulting company... but if I can't write code... management is probably better than unemployment.

user55340

But I really enjoy the time of not coding too. I was able to catch up on a lot of sleep that I haven't been able to get otherwise.

user55340

I read quite a few books that I got that I hadn't had time to read before.

petajamaja

My dad studied navy engineering (how to build ships) at Uni. Now he works with nuclear waste disposal.

user55340

I drove all over the state through October taking pictures.

petajamaja

so no surprises

Oh, it's awesome!

I mean, having time for other hobbies.

And reading is immensely important.

user55340

5:02 AM

My brother was a machinist mate for the navy nuclear program a number of years ago. He's left the navy has become a yoga teacher and is now a nurse assistant (very respected at the hospital he works at for the hours and dedication he's done there)

user55340

user55340

Two of the photos from this fall... I'm going to work on getting the right ones more tomorrow.

petajamaja

Yeah, nobody knows where they will find their place.

Wow, they are gorgeous =)

user55340

(I've got hundreds of photos... its a matter of seeing which ones have the right light and color and can be tweaked appropriately to bring out what I want to show)

petajamaja

5:04 AM

I like the second one more though

Yes, exactly.

user55340

Pewit's Nest. This little creek between some farmland that's been set aside.

user55340

The thing is, if I had a job this past October, I wouldn't have been able to take those photos.

petajamaja

It's great to have a time for creativity and traveling =)

user55340

If you can... find a place that offers sabbaticals every several years or so. I've known two places that do that... its rather uncommon. But if you can, its a great benefit.

user55340

Sabbatical

Sabbatical or a sabbatical (from Latin sabbaticus, from Greek σαββατικός sabbatikos, from Hebrew shabbat, i.e., Sabbath, literally a "ceasing") is a rest from work, or a break, often lasting from two months to a year. The concept of sabbatical has a source in shmita, described several places in the Bible (Leviticus 25, for example, where there is a commandment to desist from working the fields in the seventh year). In the strict sense, therefore, a sabbatical lasts a year. == History == The main Bible passage for sabbatical concepts is Genesis 2:2-3, in which God rested (literally, "ceased" from...

petajamaja

5:07 AM

Agreed.

user55340

The "nope, not coding - doing other things" and just doing them.

petajamaja

It's the first time I've heard about it.

user55340

I joke that my current state of employment is that of an "unpaid sabbatical"

user55340

SGI had a sabbatical policy of 1 month every 5 years. You got a full month off.

petajamaja

=D

user55340

5:08 AM

And a contracting company that I worked with (not for) had a 2 months every 5 years.

petajamaja

That's really cool. I mean, many people nowadays think of having a flexible timetable and and ability to travel a lot, and this sabbatical looks like a great opportunity to do it

And to explore...

user55340

When I was laid off back in '09, I spent a bit over 4 months just driving around and taking photographs.

user55340

(I had a nice severance package then too... I was still getting paid for those four months)

petajamaja

Maybe it's your second passion? Apart from coding

user55340

It is. The challenge is that I like doing it. Its really nice to like to do two things... and have one as a job and the other as a hobby.

user55340

5:12 AM

The thing I also know is that a professional photographer is a much harder job than a professional programmer.

petajamaja

Yes, sound awesome. I really envy you. Cause I don't like coding at all and am too young to understand what I really like.

Oh, why?

To me it seems that programming is a much more difficult one.

user55340

Coding - here's the task... lets get them done. There's a problem to solve and you are solving it. Its rather straight forward at the end of the day. May be hard to identify the problem, or how to solve it... but that's what we get paid for.

user55340

Photography, you're a small business with all of the investments and financial and marketing parts to it too.

petajamaja

Ah, now I understand.

user55340

You want to sell the prints at an art festival? Ok, thats a $250 for a booth there. Getting your own booth (and tent) will probably cost you about $1000 with $50 to $100 / year maintain on the tent and hardware there.

petajamaja

5:14 AM

There is Deviantart marketing.

Many people now sell their prints via this community

user55340

And you've got to do the prints... ok, 25 different photos at 4 sizes each, and you need 25 of the small, 25 of the medium, 15 of the large, and 2 huge... and that adds up to another $5000 worth of material you've got there.

user55340

And you're doing your own mounting of the prints on the board unless you're going to add another $1000 to it.

user55340

@petajamaja haven't been active there for some time: shagie.deviantart.com

petajamaja

OK, you seem to know a lot about this business =)

user55340

(there's also shagie.smugmug.com )

petajamaja

5:16 AM

Love your waterfalls

user55340

A photographer that I worked with on a regular basis back in California: panoscapes.com

user55340

I'd help him out at his booth when he was in town... and when we happened to be in the same area taking photos, we'd find each other, point out some of the locations and then have a beer after the sunset.

user55340

Btw: my photo:

user55340

His photo:

user55340

5:18 AM

user55340

our tripods there were about 3 feet apart.

petajamaja

How is it possible to have such different photos of one single sunset??

user55340

(and while his looks smaller there, I was shooting on film that was 24x36mm... he was shooting on film that was 60x170mm)

petajamaja

Did you have different filter settings or what?

user55340

Different film and post processing. We were both shooting film...

petajamaja

5:20 AM

Omg it is on film?

user55340

he was probably using Velvia and I might have been using E100G at the time.

petajamaja

Haven't seen this for ages

user55340

Both of our shots were film.

petajamaja

Wow =)

I though it was all in the past

user55340

Well.. that was 2005.

user55340

5:22 AM

(Deviant art link for the photo: shagie.deviantart.com/art/… )

petajamaja

Your colleague's photo looks somehow more aggressive though. I mean, the colors are much more intense and even surreal, while yours are more natural and tender.

user55340

Different visualizations of the scene.

petajamaja

Sure. This is what art is about.

user55340

With film, every film has a different interpretation just by the choice that is made there.

user55340

Velvia has very saturated colors.

petajamaja

5:23 AM

Ah, I see.

I have already forgotten how it was...

user55340

While E100G was a very fine grain with more natural colors.

user55340

E100VS was the saturated kodak slide film

user55340

And then there was also E100W which was warmer than the E100G for its color balance.

user55340

(though I might be wrong on those suffixes... its been awhile)

petajamaja

I was a child back then, so I only remember kodak and it's all =)

user55340

5:25 AM

Now, the sensors are the 'same' - so the visualization choices have to be made in post production. I try not to pull the color balances too far from what I recall reality to be like, but its sometimes necessary to adjust it to bring out certain emphasis.

user55340

(I really don't like the absurdly over saturated digital images that seem to be so common these days)

petajamaja

I don't like it either… Too many effects and too little real effort.

user55340

This photo, if I remember right, I shot this weekend 9 years ago...

user55340

petajamaja

It brings joy...

I smiled.

And it is really beautiful.

The leaf is almost like some living creature's nose =)

And year it is so fragile.

Also, I really like how there is this last colorful spot between the overall whiteness.

user55340

5:30 AM

That was in Yosemite where I took that photo. Got up at dawn. The river running through there was just warm enough to have fog form, but as soon as the fog touched anything it would form a very fine layer of frost.

petajamaja

=)

user55340

Another view of the same leaf:

user55340

The left with the green is off to the side there.

petajamaja

Yes, I see it. But I likes the first one more.

user55340

5:32 AM

I do too.

user55340

On the 'same subject, different views':

user55340

petajamaja

=) Yes, it is true.

user55340

If you look closely, you will see that those are the same leaves.

petajamaja

5:32 AM

What is the first one at all?

Yes. But the first photo is totally useless…

It lacks focus

user55340

Lots of negative space.

petajamaja

and it lacks individuality

yes. negative space!

but the second one already has it all filled.

user55340

petajamaja

=)

user55340

5:35 AM

petajamaja

I see the same law here.

user55340

petajamaja

oh wow.

Btw all of these are your photos?

user55340

All except that panorama of the sunset above.

petajamaja

Aha. So you tried different angles and then saw which one is better and works best, didn't you?

user55340

5:37 AM

I was still figuring out things then. Trying to understand perspective, location, emphasis, focus with the camera.

user55340

And lighting.

user55340

(same mushroom - photos taken 180 degrees from each other)

petajamaja

awesome work!

Why not have a blog about it?

You do have a personal site

but if you add something like tutorials, all of those would be good examples

user55340

5:39 AM

shagie.net

user55340

Still working on it. Have a lot of old material to bring into that one...

user55340

(btw, I do have a panoramic camera of my own... though its "only" a 24x65mm frame (still small compared to Jim's 60x170mm))

petajamaja

Awesome =)

user55340

petajamaja

You really are a very interesting person.

I have to stop here though...

user55340

5:40 AM

Heh.

user55340

You've got a presentation to work on.

petajamaja

I am really sorry, but I need to go and write that letter and try to do something with the presentation

user55340

I completely understand.

user55340

(my time constraints are a bit more free than most peoples... and I could go on for hours more)

petajamaja

Yeah, I wish I could chat like this too.

But I really have to take a small nap and with fresh head continue...

Cause I am very afraid of it.

It's like, you know, I am losing a very important opportunity.

But thanks a lot for a pleasant chat at the end, I really enjoyed your art =)

And as for the advice you gave, I will try to follow.

user55340

5:43 AM

Thank you. And yep, sleep would be good... (its 11:45pm here)

petajamaja

Here it's 6.43 AM

The difference is very big

user55340

Yep... (the co-worker that I mentioned earlier - got his info as he was waking up... he's in India)

petajamaja

OK, I hope he'l give you recommendations you need =)

And all the best with your job search!

user55340

I'm fairly sure he will. Having a reference from a CTO is a nice one.

petajamaja

I hope they take you

=)

user55340

5:46 AM

I hope so to. Though there's another one I've got to apply to too - I won't hear back from the first one before the deadline for this other one.

petajamaja

OK, so goodbye and thank you very much indeed . I really needed to talk to someone experienced.

user55340

(another state agency... but this one works in Scala!)

petajamaja

Ah, but anyway : good luck

user55340

Stop by anytime.

petajamaja

Thank you.

user55340

5:47 AM

(and my cat is telling me I really should be in bed - he can be quite persistent about it)

petajamaja

LOL

user55340

6:38 AM

@RobertHarvey news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8654979 (both the link and discussion)

Robert Harvey

7:08 AM

@MichaelT It's just the usual blather from folks who don't have to put up with the endless parade of chaff that occurs on the front page of Stack Overflow on a daily basis. I can always tell when someone doesn't have skin in the game.

user55340

8:02 AM

@RobertHarvey there are people there who are more familiar than the hn crowd. Shog makes some comments. Fishtoaster speaks of the early NPR days as a mod then.

user55340

Fredley has a number of good points too - explaining what works and doesn't in a Q&A format.

enderland

2:03 PM

@MichaelT does that mean I won't have to put up with the AWFUL interface that is MSDN for help??? this is like a dream come true

ratchet freak

msdn that bad?

enderland

First, M$ people "accept" answers for you

Second, it copies the answer to the top of the thread

Third, it's a forum thread

ratchet freak

SE is so much better ;)

enderland

Absolutely. SE has its challenges, but MSDN has them all and more

Jimmy Hoffa

2:20 PM

I suspect a very slow couple more days of the week

Surprising fact about Land of Lisp: While I was at the bookstore this weekend letting my kid defile the place to keep him busy, I saw Land of Lisp on a shelf and went to have a glance at it, never having seen it in print. I was surprised to pick it up and realize it appeared on the order of 500+ pages, and large-comic-book size, huge for such a silly looking book. It must have a java framework reference printed inside just for giggles or a binary printing of Paul Graham's brain

Jimmy Hoffa

2:34 PM

hey lucky guess, oreilly claims it 504 pages

user55340

4:34 PM

@RobertHarvey I see you've taken the age old "when there's nothing better to do, argue on the internet" option. (btw, I've mentioned before that my nickname is shagie - I try to use it whenever its a nickname oriented site rather than a real name oriented site)

Robert Harvey

It was a slow day yesterday.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey is driven crazy by people who are wrong on the internet. One day he'll correct them all, every last one, then the internet will simply be a place where he spends endless time arguing with Andy...

Robert Harvey

Who is Andy?

Jimmy Hoffa

I don't recall all his varied pseudonyms, but every time he trolled the site you started arguing with him. It was one of the litmus tests for him: Is @RobertHarvey arguing with him in comments? Yep, must be him again.

Robert Harvey

Oh. Harglesis.

user41796

4:39 PM

Wasn't World saying he believes he scorched that troll enough to chase him away?

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 yes, we haven't seen him in quite a while

...knock on borscht...

Robert Harvey

Probably blocked by the Spaminator.

user41796

No complaints here... :-)

Robert Harvey

Fun, unsubstantiated but probably true theory: most of the angst on Stack Overflow is caused by 15 year old kids trying to become part of the in-club of programming.

user55340

@RobertHarvey possibly. There's also the "he's still in school and doesn't have time for trolling". Given that we were able to shut him down rather quickly the amount of work to amount of toll response he had to do wasn't worth it here.

user55340

4:43 PM

(some of his bans appear to be expiring soon: physics.stackexchange.com/users/27902/andy-harglesis )

user55340

Just glancing at it, he appears to be asking on Physics.SE as a preferred site.

user55340

(wait, no, the activity doesn't have a year on it... that was October 2013 not 2014)

user55340

@RobertHarvey If they're willing to act appropriately, that SO represents what they want to be is a good thing and key to SO's long term survival.

user55340

No one wants to be "the person with the best answers on Yahoo Answers!"

Robert Harvey

Sure, but I think the signal to noise ratio is quite low. If it weren't for the quality filters, better than half of all questions asked there would fall down.

user55340

4:52 PM

That is indeed a problem. The ideal solution is for the rest of the community to take more ownership of moderating and maintaining the quality that keeps us from being YahooAnswers.

user55340

@RobertHarvey half? Given some of the examples that Shog has given us from time to time, I'd say 90%.

user55340

1000 days until solar eclipse:

user55340

(and Mr. Eclipse data for the eclipse: eclipsewise.com/solar/SEprime/2001-2100/SE2017Aug21Tprime.html )

Ampt

Is the Eclipse team making a tour? Someone should tell them their IDE sucks.

Robert Harvey

5:03 PM

Bada boom.

user55340

5:36 PM

Woodworking/painting of the day:

user55340

twentytwowords.com/…

Robert Harvey

Modern art. Never could quite grasp it.

user55340

@RobertHarvey Its a piece of wood... that has been sculpted and painted to look like rocks and fabric.

Robert Harvey

Hm, that is pretty cool.

user55340

5:41 PM

Yea... thats the thing. Don't worry about the message there (not sure if there is one - artist comments about being intrigued by mirages as a child) - appreciate the craftsmanship to get the wood carved to look like folded fabric and rocks.

user55340

And then, its also the painting... wood isn't translucent - that 'rock' floating, see how you can see through the 'fabric'? That's painting.

Matt Giltaji

@MichaelT that is really impressive

Robert Harvey

So who supplies the cables for a new build? The motherboard manufacturer? I don't see cables in the pictures of anything that I bought.

user55340

6:04 PM

Btw - interesting conversation last night that demonstrates why certain questions are indeed best for chat (up until I got talking about photography... but, well, thats me):

user55340

15 hours ago, by petajamaja

I am sorry to intrude… A programming student here in a difficult situation, needing not the code, but a bit of advice of how to act...

Ampt

6:23 PM

@RobertHarvey Usually Sata cables come with the MOBO

the front panel stuff comes with the case

Nvidia SLI bridges come with motherboard and ATI CrossFire bridges come with the cards themselves

Robert Harvey

6:49 PM

@Ampt Downloaded the mobo manual and had a look... It comes with 4 sata cables, so I should be good to go. Can I expect them to be rated for Sata 3?

user41796

@RobertHarvey yes

Robert Harvey

Excellent.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey more than likely SATA 6

you're getting a premium motherboard. It'll come with premium add-ons

Robert Harvey

Oh, i see. Sata rev number is gb/s?

Ampt

yep

it's not really a rev number

it's used in conversation as though it were

but there's not a sata 4 or sata 5

Robert Harvey

6:52 PM

I would be worried about it, but I bought an Ssd.

Ampt

yep. you'll want sata 6 in that case

it's 375MB/s vs 750MB/s

you can definitely hit the lower number with SSDs

you may want to look into which SATA controller you're going to use. you usually have the option of the motherboard SATA controller or the CPU SATA Controller

I'm honestly not sure which is commonly faster

I would guess CPU, but it may suffer from too many things on one die syndrom

Robert Harvey

It only has to sustain 500mBps read.

I can probably run some benchmarks on both.

Ampt

You may not notice any difference at all

I just know theres a finite number of controller slots on the CPU. I think it's 2 on the current gen iSeries

so no raid 5 or anything

Robert Harvey

Tough to google. Get nothing but motherboard product pages.

Is there a connector on that asrock specifically dedicated to the cpu sata?

user41796

7:07 PM

@RobertHarvey I didn't have the option to use CPU vs. MOBO SATA, but I picked up an AMD chip, so YMMV

Ampt

@RobertHarvey it'll be different colors. which Mobo do you have again?

Are you going with the ASRock one you had in your pcpart picker?

Robert Harvey

Yes, that's the one.

Crucial mx100 is sata6, so no sata express, i guess.

It wasn't the fastest drive, but 100 dollars less than the Corsair.

Ampt

7:25 PM

Looking at the spec, it looks like the far right two are labeled a0 and a1

I would guess those are the ones controlled by the CPU die

also looks like the motherboard comes with some sort of proprietary "HDD Saver" which routes the power through the motherboard so you can turn your hard drive power supply on and off...

don't use that.

I guess I would probably put the SSD on one of the middle 4 slots

the two closest to the SATA express slot are shared with the m.2 slot

so I would save those for when you install an m.2 (if ever)

Robert Harvey

Thanks, that's probably what I'll do.

In other news, the Corsir case came without the expected rubber grommets in the cable routing cutouts. I am disappoint.

user41796

They didn't come with the SSD? Although now that I think about it, I think a set came with my case.

user41796

And there's always "Oh, darn! Now I have to go to Fry's." That said, I suspect they're a complete zoo right about now.

Robert Harvey

The review video that I watched had them installed in the case. It was partly why i chose the case. Costs 10 dollars to buy a set.

Not the hard drive grommets.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey Man that's now 0/2 on corsair cases lately

my 900D is pretty meh on the build quality

great design but terrible quality control

Robert Harvey

7:38 PM

It's still the best case I could find under $100.

It's a nice case, I'm just miffed that some phb decided to save a couple of bucks on the grommets.

Not going within ten miles of Frys this week.

Stack Exchange

Blog - Stack Exchange: Podcast #61 – The “What Jay’s Done Wrong” Podcast

Abby T. Miller on November 25, 2014

Welcome to the 61st installment of the Stack Exchange Podcast, brought to you by okra (yes, that okra). On our show today are David Fullerton, Jay Hanlon, and Joel Spolsky. It’s been a long time since we last did a podcast, so let’s get started.

First point of business: we have an iPad app! It’s got a snazzier feed and a fancy live preview in the Compose view. We’ve been getting more posts from mobile than we expected, because computing via iPad is the way of the future (according to Joel), so lots of features in the iOS app are now better optimized for posting as opposed to reading. …

user55340

Hmm... intresting:

user55340

1

Q: Motivation for the proposal "Solo Programadores (in Spanish)"

Proposal: Solo Programadores (in Spanish) Español: Estoy muy interesado en aprender bien el Ingles, pero no mi prioridad. La prioridad es aprender a programar mejor. Yo utilizo mucho el traductor de Google para participar de StackOverflow (en ingles) y disfruto mucho de hacerlo, pero para ...

technology

user55340

(there's an english translation there too)

korima

Good nights! Anybody can resolve me a doubt about dependency injection? It's little

user55340

7:50 PM

Nov 20 at 19:55, by Robert Harvey

Don't ask if you can ask, just ask.

korima

Ok, thanks, I illustrate with an example

I have a class method that lets me download a Rss channel.

user41796

@korima BTW, it's not "doubt" it's "question" as in "I have a question about ..."

korima

jejejej ok xD

It method, connects to the url, download content, convert to XML document, parse the document to extract the info about news etc etc

My method looks like so: download(String urlChannel)

Well, as in other parts of my app I have code related with network access I have a service that lets me download files from internet

user55340

@GlenH7 one of those awkward bits with either Indian jargon or Spanish / Portuguese translation of a particular word into English that in many cases maps closer to doubt than question... but ever time we hear it, it should be question.

user55340

13

Q: I have "a doubt" about whether this phrase is acceptable English

To my (British) ear, it never sounds correct to say you have a doubt about something. I expect that doubt to be pluralised, even if there's only one specific thing that I'm doubtful of, in one specific way, so I would always say "I have doubts about something". Answers to this ELU question say ...

word-usage grammaticality questions

korima

7:54 PM

Then, in my method download() a have a "new NetworkService()" instance

user41796

@MichaelT True, and the internal sed automatically performs the replace. But it throws some people off.

enderland

I think I'm going to be high simply from whatever fumes are in my office right now. Seriously wtf.

korima

As the dependency injection says that dependencies must be passes as parameter, that instance is included such as?

user55340

@enderland Dude, where's my laptop?

Ampt

@korima your question is rather detailed and hard to understand with the language barrier. do you think you could try and refine it to be easier to understand?

user55340

7:56 PM

@korima You appear to be doing some form of DI with the string urlChannel parameter.

user55340

However, consider the situation where you want to give it a feed from a local text file (unit testing).

korima

@MichaelT But I'm creating creating an object inside the method. Should not I pass the service to the method or is well like I explained?

user55340

If the urlChannel is of the form file:///..., does it work?

korima

@Ampt My question comes because in a method i'm creating a instance of an object and I don't know if it violates the dependency injection

@MichaelT it has a validation for only accept http or https

enderland

@MichaelT in the cloooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudddddddddddddddddd

2

user55340

8:01 PM

@korima For DI, I would be looking at a ChannelFetcher of some sort. Maybe a ChannelFetcherFactory (as this is often the form that such solutions take) that instantiates the class that can fetch a channel from somewhere.

user55340

This way, you can extend it to have a fetcher for https, http, ftp, file, and so on.

user55340

You can still inject with a string (if you dig into the XML files of many DI frameworks, you'll find strings there)... but you need to be able to inject other types of things to allow for different situations.

korima

@MichaelT Do you mean that DI only has meaning when there are different types of something? In this case, http, https, ftp...

user55340

:18777712 If you are only worried about the "I am going to read a http://... url from some source" you don't need to go deep into DI. However, it becomes difficult to unit test the code because it means there has to be an up and running http server somewhere.

user55340

Its when you get into testing that parts of DI really make sense.

user55340

8:06 PM

You've got a class. It does something with an RSS feed. You make a change to how that class works. How do you test to make sure that it does the right thing? Point it at the rss feed? Well, that feed changed since last week and so you can't see the bug anymore that you are fixing.

korima

I see...

user55340

(btw, if you select a previous message (left hand side of the message triangle drop down menu), you can edit it - same place as you delete it... you can also quickly get to a previous message with the up arrow key - and then it shows a pencil icon saying it was edited)

korima

My question comes because I read in a blog that all "new xxx()" in a method means that it requires DI. And as in this method I'm creating an object I didn't know if it required DI

user55340

It depends on how 'big' you want your application to be. Adding DI is something that applications of a certain size/complexity will need to be able to do testing, point at alternate data sources, allow for easy (re)configuration.

user55340

But its also a big headache to create DI for a small program that really doesn't need it.

user55340

8:12 PM

You need to consider if you need or want DI for your application. It's perfectly acceptable to say "nope".

user55340

Once you start down the path of DI it involves a lot of ceremony - doing the proper things in the proper order. You'll need a property file reader of some sort. You'll need the property files themselves. You'll likely find that you need to have a Factory or AbstractFactory of some sort to handle the initialization of the objects that come from the property file.

user20683

I seldom use DI for instance since most of my applications are small and tend toward functional styles

user55340

DI is a Pattern (just like the Factory) in that it is a known solution to a known problem. When you recognize that problem you can say "ah ha! I need to use some DI to make this easier."

user55340

But just like the rest of the Patterns, you shouldn't be starting off with "I want to use DI in this"

user55340

8:34 PM

0

Q: Where and how to improve questions?

This bit came up in chat the other day: more discussion needs to happen on meta regarding question x and how to make it better A quick search can find it, but I'm not going to link it to bring up the full context and discussion in chat - because I do want it to be rehashed here. Occasional...

discussion closed-questions questions participation

enderland

Scheduling a database migration... any common fail points which I should be aware of? Sounds like they are going to recreate the SQL Server logins and basically copy the database over

user55340

@enderland Its Microsoft... so... fail?

enderland

@MichaelT My default is to answer that in chat, oops

@MichaelT Har har :)

user55340

@enderland look at the post I reply to and follow it from there.

user41796

Do you have any system dsn's defined anywhere? that can trip things up

enderland

8:37 PM

I don't think so - I have a linking process I do for my front end which I will run early tomorrow (like 5am) and kick out a new frontend for everyone

user55340

I think chat is great for that, but I do recognize the perception of the chat cabal may reduce user participation in trying to fix things or meta participation in general.

user55340

And I will make an attempt to get more people doing it on meta... but I will also not get my expectations too high because there is a high correlation between meta participation and chat itself.

enderland

As a mod on Workplace I've started specifically telling people to discuss things on meta and actually created a discussion topic literally today about this meta.workplace.stackexchange.com/q/2989/2322

and linking users to that as appropriate

bah I'm already answering your question in chat...

user55340

If we can't get Snowman, Bart, Doc, Dan, Adam (five more people on the first page of meta participation who are also active on the main site) to participate (though not just them... I'd love to see names that I didn't mention)...

enderland

I don't know if I should really answer since I'm not really a p.se regular on the main site at least...

user55340

8:45 PM

2 days ago, by MichaelT

You have a mod's perspective from another site that is similar in age, size, rate of questions, and number of down voted questions as P.SE.

enderland

You should probably get that featured

user55340

@enderland that would take a mod like @WorldEngineer

user55340

Could always go for a helpful Meta.P.SE flag by flagging it "you should feature this"

Stack Exchange

9:01 PM

2

Q: Where and how to improve questions?

This bit came up in chat the other day: more discussion needs to happen on meta regarding question x and how to make it better A quick search can find it, but I'm not going to link it to bring up the full context and discussion in chat - because I do want it to be rehashed here. Occasional...

discussion featured closed-questions questions participation

enderland

Hmm. Ping is 2ms on new server vs 10ms on old server. Guess that's pretty insignificant either way...

Jimmy Hoffa

9:25 PM

tip of the day: Measuring ping to identify network performance is perfectly valid, though all measurements of network performance must be done under sufficient concurrent load - sequential network requests with an averaged time is a common but wholey invalid way of measuring network performance of any given application. Requests must be in the nature of all network applications to make the metrics valid: Concurrent.

enderland

but think of the stats!

user41796

ping is a nice measure of latency but it doesn't tell you what you're going to see for throughput. You need to consider both when evaluating a network.

enderland

I'm mainly curious what performance gain we'll get transitioning the database, pure curiousity at this point ;)

user41796

2ms latency on a network with 1kbps bandwidth is gonna suck big time compared to a 100ms latency on a network with 10gbps bandwidth when you're pushing around big amounts of data.

Jimmy Hoffa

(had to correct somebody of testing the network responsiveness of redis for analysis of our purposes on this one the other day... we aren't going to use the cache sequentially, testing it as such is pointless)

just made me think of that when you mentioned the ping

people just don't like having to meddle up threading for a simple benchmark test, performance testing like all testing is as much art as engineering, coming up with a way to simulate reality... do they teach anything about that in school? Probably not I suspect

enderland

9:40 PM

I'll just assume all else is equal and compare a single stat in a vacuum. More fun that way ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

I wonder what would happen if a fresh faced group of new CS students were taken into the task of writing a full-fledged RDBMS for 4 straight years, would they come out more capable?

replacing all CS courses with year 1 of creating it, year 2 of creating it, having to work as a group like a company creating a product, a useless product that would be thrown away; Just have them recreate some actual software that's already been done

A full RDBMS touches on pretty much every part of CS

enderland

Probably still want a year or so of "what is programming and what are basics of it"

Jimmy Hoffa

plus they'd learn something of maintenance and not repeating your mistakes

@enderland that would be year 1: Make this. What's programming? Well fuck guess you'll have to figure it out. Here's land of LISP and an 8086 assembly reference manual.

enderland

nah year 1 - learn to read docs and use google

user55340

@JimmyHoffa pages.cs.wisc.edu/~jignesh/cs564

user41796

9:44 PM

@enderland and get question blocked on StackOverflow.

enderland

@WorldEngineer that narrows down most people though right?

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer I did say CS student didn't I?

if I was assuming they were smart I'd say people going for a business degree, they must have a good head on their shoulders to know better than spend 4 years studying only to meet the bobs one day

user55340

( or a syllabus for the class: pages.cs.wisc.edu/~cs564-1/lec1/course-schedule.html )

Jimmy Hoffa

same difference

enderland

;)

user55340

9:48 PM

If these were CS majors (not all CS students are CS majors - some are ECE, some are people after the "enough to do 1h of code" types)... it would be challenging though the "do something for 4 years" implies you're working with the same group for four years.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I'm thinking more like: Build this in a horrible way to start. Do your best. Continually maintain and improve it for the next 4 years to meet the constant feature requests. Maybe year 1 would just be teaching them what they're going to build then they spend 3 years working on it...

user55340

people have different courses they're taking, people drop out, people transfer in... people change majors their Jr. year.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT yes, I speak of a significant departure from a standard education approach. Groups may be reformed as people leave just like a company replaces empty headcounts etc.

enderland

just got an automatic email for a copywriter position -- the title has a typo in it. lol

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT is a thought experiment nothing more. What do you think would happen? Would the few who made it all the way through 4 years of working on a single highly complex application like that come out more, less, or just differently capable than those who come out of 4 years with the current cs education approach?

user20683

9:50 PM

Better idea: do it the way that the guy who wrote object oriented software engineering teaches his class. You get to add to and maintain last year's project, project gets new features added each year

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer that's what I'm talking about

user20683

that way it doesn't matter what classes you're in

user20683

you get to deal with cocky rockstars and deadweight bottom feeders

Jimmy Hoffa

year 1 or 2 you create the first go of it, following years up to graduation you continue working on the same app

user55340

Dunno. The thing is, I really didn't find databases interesting. I enjoyed my complier and theory class (and AI class - it was taught by the game theory professor rather than the vision or language professor).

Ampt

9:52 PM

@JimmyHoffa dude, are you trying to scare them away?

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT an RDBMS has all of those things though - not creating a DB, but an RDBMS. Execution plans are AI, SQL invokes compiler theory

user55340

You'd get some people who could be hired by oracle, a lot of drop outs, and no one who knows how to deal with matlab or splines or newton's method.

Jimmy Hoffa

so is that just differently capable with a smaller graduating class?

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I've had classes that span multiple years, but you just aren't going to get enough of a varied curriculum with that approach

and how long does it take to figure out that you're shit at writing code and always will be?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt dunno? How long does it take for current students?

enderland

9:54 PM

@JimmyHoffa 20 years

user55340

@JimmyHoffa the 4th assignment for AI was a gomaku game. The 3rd assignment for language theory was in ML (and Haskell gives me flashbacks to that). Numerical methods wouldn't be touched (newton's method?) or aspects of other languages...

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT are numerical methods not requisite in implementing the set operations of an RDBMS?

user55340

Nope. Things like "here's a function, find the spots where the value is 0" has nothing to do with set operations.

user55340

Or the "create a spline for each letter of the alphabet"

enderland

wow. starring a message which has a long word breaks the starred message feed............................................................................‌.................................................................................‌.................................................................................‌.................................................................................‌...

Jimmy Hoffa

9:56 PM

total clickbait

Ampt

right? "5 ways enderland trolls the whiteboard! You will NOT believe number 3!"

user55340

Or what is the necessary gates for 7 segment LED (binary coded decimal)

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT this is useful for heuristics no? Could it not be taught as a part of improving/implementing heuristics throughout your RDBMS?

maybe it would only work as a replacement for a portion of CS classes while others would still be necessary - you're right there'd be no introduction to any ML

user55340

@JimmyHoffa having taken a database class and numerical methods... I don't recall any intersection of those two areas.

enderland

Make sure to throw a business class in there so everyone can experience stakeholders demanding the impossible in no time at all

Jimmy Hoffa

9:59 PM

@MichaelT you know enough about RDBMS to say - you don't see an application for numerical methods in implementing an RDBMS? I wouldn't know, I don't even really know what numerical methods are

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