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Mateo
Mateo
12:05 AM
wow, updated to new version less than a min -
so, making a scope for this place because the api is easy to use :)
 
Darth_Vader
Darth_Vader
sup sup sup
 
Mateo
Mateo
hm, so @Seth no light on button with screen blank with music playing in background, maybe that was a change in this version from just the previous...
@Darth_Vader hiya how are things going
 
Darth_Vader
Darth_Vader
good.. design break
 
Mateo
Mateo
12:21 AM
oh, I had this soda today:
thought it was intresting
 
Darth_Vader
Darth_Vader
um... ya... no thanks, cant drink anything that says Toxic ;)
 
 
1 hour later…
Ravan
Ravan
1:24 AM
@Fabby @A.B o/
 
Seth
Seth
@Mateo hmm. Check the changelog?
 
 
2 hours later…
Nathan Osman
Nathan Osman
3:28 AM
Anyone want to move to North Carolina?
 
 
1 hour later…
Anubian Noob
Anubian Noob
4:51 AM
@NathanOsman I'm down
 
Ubuntu Questions on U&L
Ubuntu Questions on U&L
5:36 AM
0
Q: C compiler Problem Ubuntu

HaydenRecently i was trying to install cpuminer and i ran this code to configure it ./configure CFLAGS="-03" when this error came up checking whether the C compiler works... no configure: error: in `/home/default/cpuminer-master': configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables Now i did s...

ubuntu gcc c compiler
 
Serg
Serg
Out of curriosity typed into address bar unix.se . . . .presented with a page of what seems to be some form of unix server . . . .Just in case, noped the f*ck out of there. Anybody knows what that site was all about ?
 
hbdgaf
hbdgaf
6:02 AM
 
 
2 hours later…
Ubuntu Questions on U&L
Ubuntu Questions on U&L
7:45 AM
0
Q: SSHD Could not load host key

Alex KwaI'm trying to connect via passwordless key authentication ssh to my Ubuntu NAS server from my Mac. I get the following error in my auth.log error: Could not load host key: /Users/alexkwa/.ssh/id_rsa The file exists on my Mac and I could connect via password authentication. Would really like s...

ubuntu ssh key-authentication
 
Fabby
Fabby
@NathanOsman Wow!
 
user136984
@hbdgaf What did he see that he didn't like so much? :D
 
Fabby
Fabby
@ParanoidPanda The human filming???
>:-)
 
user136984
:D
 
Fabby
Fabby
@ParanoidPanda Thanks for the acceptance...
 
user136984
8:01 AM
@Fabby: You're welcome! :)
 
Fabby
Fabby
@ParanoidPanda Why did you ever accept the nonsense answer?
I know you probably turned it on yourself for sniffing...
Shall I add that to the answer?
@A.B. o/
 
user136984
@Fabby: I'm not sure, I just suddenly remembered that I had once accepted a really paranoid and not so great answer instead of yours, so I decided to track down the question, and fix it... :D
 
user136984
And yes, I think I am the sniffer... :D
 
user136984
I get it every time I launch my sniffing tool! :P
 
Fabby
Fabby
@ParanoidPanda :D :D :D
I'll make it more clear in my answer!
 
user136984
8:13 AM
Oh... :D
 
Fabby
Fabby
Hey, You're the native English speaker!
You should be able to read stuff like this:
I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae.
The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.
@ParanoidPanda done!
 
user136984
@Fabby: :D :D :D
 
A.B.
A.B.
8:30 AM
Morning
 
George the Dev
George the Dev
@A.B. Hello.
 
user136984
@A.B.: Morning! :)
 
A.B.
A.B.
@ParanoidPanda @Fabby @Ravan \o/
:D
What a rainy day in Germany
 
Fabby
Fabby
Grey but not raining here (yet)...
 
A.B.
A.B.
Brunch brb
 
user136984
8:33 AM
@A.B.: Grey and rainy here too! :D
 
Fabby
Fabby
9:01 AM
@A.B.: have a look here
 
A.B.
A.B.
9:51 AM
@Fabby =)
 
 
1 hour later…
A.B.
A.B.
10:55 AM
@Pilot6 btw, nice problem, great answer =)
4
Q: How create a udev rules to disable one of Android devices?

Pilot6I have an HTC Android phone. Every time I connect it to computer I get a message: Android Phone: Could not open MTP device "[usb:002,003]" The numbers may be different. But the phone connects correctly. usb-devices output T: Bus=02 Lev=01 Prnt=01 Port=00 Cnt=01 Dev#= 28 Spd=480 MxCh= 0 D: ...

usb android udev
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
@A.B. Finally I got the answer. This is my second bounty offered for that
Now I am thinking on a remove action.
 
A.B.
A.B.
@Pilot6 Remove action?
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
The problem is that it does not unmount very well
If I click unmount, it stays there antil I unplug
 
A.B.
A.B.
I should bookmark your answer. the steps from Cls=06(still) Sub=01 Prot=01 and Cls=08(stor.) Sub=06 Prot=50 to ENV{ID_USB_INTERFACES}==":060101:080650:" are nice
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
And it takes a minute to re-mount after that.
The answer is not really good, because this number is hard to catch. If you look into the chat, you will see that a temporary script is needed. Or like I did very fast actions with plugging and running commands ;-)
 
A.B.
A.B.
11:01 AM
Have you tried an action like ACTION=="add"?
As example:
1
A: udev rules targeting every USB device

A.B.Every USB device? Use this simple line in /etc/udev/rules.d/100-usb.rules ACTION=="add", RUN+="/bin/mkdir /tmp/folder1" and restart udev sudo service udev restart This is expendable ATTRS{idVendor}=="****", ATTRS{idProduct}=="****",

This rule works only, if a device was plugged
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
11:13 AM
The problem is that libmtp does not mount to a folder
The access is to mtp://
mtp://[usb:002,004]/
Nothing mounts to any folder I could find
 
Ravan
Ravan
@A.B
unity
command is there?
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
@A.B It mounts to /run/user/1000/gvfs
 
Ravan
Ravan
when I run unity in terminal it suspended all windows and login screen appeared @A.B
why?
 
A.B.
A.B.
@Ravan maybe a new unity session was started?
 
Ravan
Ravan
can I post that question?
Does it make any sense?
@A.B
 
A.B.
A.B.
11:23 AM
@Pilot6 The error message no longer appears, but you have to unmount the device anyway?
Ah yes, mtp
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
When I cinnect it a second time, it takes a long time to mount
 
A.B.
A.B.
@Pilot6 Tested on my system and no problems
mtp://[usb:001,006]/
mount and umount works fast
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
With other devices there may be be problems
 
A.B.
A.B.
@Ravan Try ist =)
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
Now I manually unmounted gvfs, but the phone mounted somewhere I can't find where. mount command does not show anything
 
A.B.
A.B.
11:28 AM
Another idea, is GOTO="libmtp_rules_end" really a good idea?
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
Yes, it is good, why not?
 
A.B.
A.B.
@Pilot6 Just a feeling. Can you test with OPTIONS==”ignore_device” instead of GOTO
Or with ATTR{authorized}="0"
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
That may be good, but i tested it before but another way. I will try.
 
A.B.
A.B.
GOTO="libmtp_rules_end" sounds a little bit brutal. Maybe you're the problem with unmount for this reason.
smoking brb
 
Pilot6
Pilot6
No. It still throws the error this way.
 
A.B.
A.B.
11:45 AM
:\
 
Fabby
Fabby
@terdon is back from holiday!
How are you?
 
terdon
terdon
12:31 PM
@Fabby Relaxed and rested :)
 
Fabby
Fabby
Everyone was asking themselves where you were...
(Hospital, dead, ...)
next time warn people here.
My guess was: on a Greek island on a beach without access toWiFi
 
terdon
terdon
Got it in one :)
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@Fabby - Hi ! Thanks for improving the readability of my answer.
 
Fabby
Fabby
@cl-netbox When you see I've edited something, read the edits...
;-)
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@Fabby - That's what I did - would you suggest to always highlight more things ?
 
A.B.
A.B.
12:49 PM
Can the OP (23) use the chat link? askubuntu.com/q/670516/367165
I am always confused.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
Hello @A.B. !
 
terdon
terdon
@A.B. Yes. It takes 20
 
A.B.
A.B.
ah 20, thank you =)
 
terdon
terdon
 
A.B.
A.B.
@cl-netbox o/
reading … again -_-
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
12:56 PM
@A.B. I noticed you improved some of my answers. Thank you for that ! As I asked @Fabby before : What do you think - should I highlight more text parts ?
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox Almost certainly not, but could you give an example?
 
A.B.
A.B.
@cl-netbox There is no rule. If I notice something, then I correct it. Remember, you can always be undone.
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox highlight what? How?
You mean using bold or italics?
Too much is usually a very bad idea since it makes the post harder to read.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon - parts of text - wait - I search for an example ...
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox Yeah, I found one. AB used the <kbd></kbd> tags there because most of what your answer referred to were buttons.
Normally, that formatting is only used to specify keyboard buttons.
Use backticks ` `` ` for code
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
1:00 PM
@A.B. No - I appreciate your help and support in improving the quality of my contributions !
 
terdon
terdon
And bold or italics for emphasis. The golden rule is making sure whatever you do makes your post easier and not harder to read.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon - Thanks for these tips - I try to make use of them in the future ... as good as I can ... :)
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox. For example, here, I made the keys look like keys and the commands/paths look like code. That is the convention we usually use on SE.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@A.B @terdon - I am quite new to posting more intensively and by the way : I have to check out what all these emo thingies mean :)
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox emo thingies?
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
1:06 PM
emoticon signs e.g. o_o
:) is a smile - this I already know
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox Ah, yes, this room really likes those. It can get very confusing but there's a cheat sheet. Hang on
47
Q: I saw something in chat I don't understand

hbdgafWhat are some of the common chat items? I want to understand what people who are more familiar with other chat clients are trying to say to me.

discussion chat
 
Rinzwind
Rinzwind
@terdon \o
My flat was burning last night (other wing from where I live) :-)
 
terdon
terdon
@Rinzwind Hey! And what? Seriously? Was anyone hurt?
 
Rinzwind
Rinzwind
1 dead. 5 wounded
 
terdon
terdon
Woah! That's awful!
 
Rinzwind
Rinzwind
1:18 PM
could be a weed plant :+
 
terdon
terdon
@Rinzwind Why? No reason that would burn particularly well. Living plants rarely do.
 
Rinzwind
Rinzwind
yeah but weed plantage tends to have lousy electricity
 
user136984
What do you guys think about this? :D
 
user136984
0
Q: How would Vegan Vampires survive?

Paranoid PandaThere is a planet called Vegavampira, and on this planet the only really intelligent animals are Vegan Vampires, but there is one problem, because they are Vegan, they will not kill, nor will they take blood or animal products without the animal's prior consent, however, as they are the only sent...

food survival vampires
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Seems silly, honestly. "How does a species that cannot survive survive?"
 
user136984
1:24 PM
@terdon: Well, I'm sure that they will find a way! :P
 
user136984
GM beetroot perhaps...
 
terdon
terdon
I doubt it. If they're constitutive carnivores idiotic enough to want to be vegan, I very much doubt they would have the sense to come in from the rain, let alone anything else.
 
user136984
Well, you see this would actually help me greatly, I am a Vegan, and want to become a Vampire, but stay Vegan... :D
 
terdon
terdon
Ugh... Why in the world would you be vegan? What's the point? You mean you don't even eat bread?
Plus, you can't call someone who drinks blood vegan. Consent has nothing to do with it. What you describe is some kind of moral vampire, not a vegan.
 
user136984
I care about animal rights, and who said Vegans can't eat bread?
 
terdon
terdon
1:27 PM
@ParanoidPanda Bread contains yeast, that's alive and not a plant.
 
user136984
Vegans can eat yeast, trust me.
 
terdon
terdon
Which is one of the reasons I consider the whole idea inane. Vegans draw random distinctions with no moral or scientific merit I can think of.
 
user136984
Vegans only concentrate on animals, for instance we eat mushrooms, and they are not animals nor plants.
 
user136984
I just don't like the idea of causing suffering to another being.
 
terdon
terdon
How does milking cause suffering?
Or collecting eggs for that matter?
 
user136984
1:29 PM
Have you seen the conditions?
 
terdon
terdon
Of?
 
user136984
They mince the male chicks because they are unable to reproduce.
 
user136984
Or gas them etc.
 
terdon
terdon
Fine. Go for free range then.
 
user136984
They also send them in the post.
 
user136984
1:29 PM
But what if they don't want to be kept by us?
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda What if they do?
 
user136984
You can't assume that they do.
 
terdon
terdon
What, you think chickens would survive in the wild?
Remember that most domesticated species are now sufficiently changed that they don't have a niche to occupy in the wild.
 
user136984
Well, no, but that's just because we bred them so they couldn't get away from us.
 
terdon
terdon
Perhaps. Point is, that's been done. We can hardly "liberate" them now.
That's like those idiots who break into biology labs and liberate the monkeys in the middle of New York.
Damn, back in a bit.
 
user136984
1:31 PM
We destroy the wild, and then force the animals to live in captivity, we should instead try to rebuild the wild and free them.
 
user136984
@terdon: Ok, I do agree, that is a bad idea... They will not survive there, and probably spread some nasty disease...
 
user136984
But they are not ours to test on in the first place.
 
user136984
There are much better methods.
 
user136984
Anyway, more organised groups of that kind like the ALF are meant to free them and then take them to safe houses for the proper treatment they need etc, and then releasing them back into their natural environment, I think that that is more sensible.
 
user136984
Anyway, those are just militant Vegans, not all of us are like that.
 
user136984
1:36 PM
There is a more peaceful approach as well.
 
terdon
terdon
1:48 PM
@ParanoidPanda Unfortunately, no, there aren't. Not for most things.
@ParanoidPanda Oh, of course, I know. What I object to is the vegan attempt to go against the nature of both ourselves and the rest of the ecosystem. Avoiding cruelty is both right and excellent and something we should all strive for. Avoiding killing is both a very bad idea and simply impossible. Not to mention unhealthy unless you put a hell of a lot of effort into forming your diet.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon - thank you ! ... >:)
 
terdon
terdon
@cl-netbox np :)
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon - cant't find it that fast - just guessing : np = no problem ? :)
 
user136984
@terdon Well, I was reading the PETA site the other day and it said that there were, but I will check again, and what those methods are... :)
 
Serg
Serg
@Fabby Appreciate the edit on askubuntu.com/a/668983/295286 but I believe it was redundant as server is already the terminal, and besides the shortcut is for GUI only
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
1:54 PM
Hi @Serg ! How are you ?
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda I can tell you there aren't. We have computational models and cell-based studies but they can only go so far. They are far from enough when dealing with extremely complex things like cancer. I wish they weren't, but that's just the way it is.
@cl-netbox Yeah, sorry :)
 
Serg
Serg
@cl-netbox well enough, how are you sir ?
@terdon tipping hat
 
terdon
terdon
yo!
 
Serg
Serg
How's life terdon ?
 
terdon
terdon
Looking for jobs.
Holidays over.
All good.
ish :)
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
1:55 PM
@Serg Fine - thanks ! I filed the bug report yesterday (you remember?) : bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/d-conf/+bug/1492174
 
Serg
Serg
@terdon I think you and Fabby can find a lot in common there, I suppose. He's been looking for jobs ,too
 
terdon
terdon
By the way, @ParanoidPanda, I'm one of them crazy animal lovers. The kind of person who goes gaga over any dog they see on the road etc. I am all for keeping animal experimentation to a minimum, I just recognize that the minimum is actually still needed.
4
 
Serg
Serg
@cl-netbox yep, I remember.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon - you see, I'm learning fast ! :)
 
terdon
terdon
@Serg Yeah, I know.
@cl-netbox So you are :)
 
user136984
1:57 PM
> These modern methods include sophisticated tests using human cells and tissues (also known > as in vitro methods), advanced computer-modelling techniques (often referred to as in silico models) and studies with human volunteers. These and other non-animal methods are not hindered by species differences that make applying animal-test results to humans difficult or impossible, and they usually take less time and money to complete.
 
user136984
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon :p :)
 
user136984
That's all I know...
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Yeah. None of these are enough. They're great for some things but not for others.
 
cl-netbox
cl-netbox
@terdon sorry :P :)
 
Serg
Serg
1:57 PM
By the way, guys, anybody knows unix.se ?
 
terdon
terdon
@Serg You're joking, right?
 
Serg
Serg
@terdon nope
 
terdon
terdon
Um. Yes. I have a passing familiarity with unix.se.
I'm a mod there FFS!
Why?
 
Serg
Serg
no,no,no . . .I am not talking about unix.stackexchange.com. I am talking about unix.se domain
actual, existing, unix.se domain
Yesterday I typed into my address bar that, and got presented with some form of terminal, spewing log messages
 
terdon
terdon
Ah! OK :)
Looking at it now, looks cool!
 
user136984
2:00 PM
@terdon: Perhaps they should pump more funding into developing new technologies that do not require the forcing of other beings against their will. But even if it's the best method to use for the best results, they are still not ours (the animals) to do this to, if they wouldn't allow it to be done on humans, then they shouldn't allow it on animals. I see no difference.
 
Serg
Serg
Yeah, it looks cool, but just curious what the heck is that and if it's safe
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Well, for one thing, we are far, far from the type of sophistication our in silico models would need in order to do this successfully. It is an active area of research though.
At the moment, if I have to choose between causing pain to a rat and allowing thousands of humans to die, the rat's out of luck.
Sadly.
That said, I have absolutely no moral qualms about experimenting on species that lack a central nervous system like flies.
 
user136984
I still think that something is wrong, if you wouldn't test it on one being, you shouldn't do it on another.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda There are huge differences between beings and the type of sensory apparatus they have.
 
user136984
Maybe if they have no objection to it, and they can feel no pain, then it is fine.
 
terdon
terdon
2:03 PM
@ParanoidPanda You are assuming they have a sense of self that is developed enough for them to have an objection or not.
There is a delicate balance to be maintained and strict ethical guidelines that must be adhered to but yeah, curing cancer is a cause I would happily sacrifice animals for.
Better skin cream isn't.
 
Serg
Serg
Is F12 key pretty standard across the machines to change boot device ?
 
terdon
terdon
@Serg Not sure. It's common enough but my machine doesn't have it, AFAIK. It will probably be a feature of a specific BIOS.
 
user136984
Well, I believe that all species are equal, and have equal rights (although perhaps not equal needs). So I do not believe that you should destroy one species, or the lives of animals, to save another species. I wish we could all just live in harmony... And hopefully we will one day.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda That will never be possible. Apart from chemo- and photosynthesizing species, all others need to kill in order to survive.
The human invention of morality that condemns killing is all very well for us but we can hardly expect it to apply to others.
Nature is neither moral nor fair. It seems the height of folly to attempt to apply our own world vision to other species. We have neither the right nor the ability.
 
user136984
No, of course not, however we should not stop their natural evolution is such a way.
 
user136984
2:10 PM
I believe that there was a certain wisdom in the Prime Directive (from Star Trek).
 
terdon
terdon
Also, while I applaud your position and quite agree that we should always try and keep cruelty to a minimum. I'm pretty sure that if you were forced to chose between killing a mouse and a human, you'd rather kill the mouse.
@ParanoidPanda What? So we should let ourselves be eaten by lions for example?
 
user136984
I would rather kill neither.
 
user136984
No, but we don't have to kill them.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Of course, but given no choice, you'd go for the mouse, thereby demonstrating that even you see a difference between the species.
 
user136984
I don't know, it really would depend on the situation.
 
terdon
terdon
2:11 PM
As for the Prime Directive, that applies to sentient races and that's a very different proposition.
@ParanoidPanda I doubt it.
 
user136984
If consent was given, perhaps, but if neither the mouse nor the human wanted to die, who am I to decide?
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda This is a thought experiment. You must decide. That's the whole idea :)
 
user136984
To me that is like saying "Would you prefer to kill an adult or a child?".
 
terdon
terdon
For me, there is a very clear gradient of morality, closely coupled to complexity and intelligence. The more complex/intelligent a species is, the more qualms I would have about killing it. I don't mind killing single-celled organisms one bit, I would hate to have to kill a dolphin or a human.
 
user136984
If the mouse was nearing its days anyway, perhaps if the human would live longer and enjoy life, but if it was the other way round, then the mouse would live.
 
terdon
terdon
2:14 PM
@ParanoidPanda Adult. Obviously. Thought experiment, remember? :P
 
user136984
I just wouldn't make the decision.
 
user136984
It is not mine to make, the mouse and human have to come to some agreement.
 
terdon
terdon
That's cheating. The point is that even for you, there are differences. For example, you kill living things all the time and every time you move (from your own skin cells to the bacteria you are walking on). What are you going to do? Stop moving?
 
user136984
Bacteria can't think.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Again, you are assuming a level of intelligence that is simply not there. Or, if it is, we have no way of knowing. That precludes the possibility of an agreement.
 
user136984
2:15 PM
And I will not kill on purpose.
 
user136984
I can't control accidents.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Oh? And mice can? How do you know? How about worms? Mosquitoes? Slime molds? Where do you draw the line?
 
A.B.
A.B.
@Serg have you read your mail?
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Then how do you eat? How do you breathe? Sit down? Defecate? All of these carry death tolls in the thousands. Of very simple organisms, granted, but still.
 
user136984
It is all very difficult, but you at least have to try.
 
Serg
Serg
2:17 PM
@A.B. yes I have. i was just having lazy day off yesterday :)
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda It is impossible by its very nature. Your body requires the bodies of other living things in order to survive.
 
user136984
But that does not mean that I should not at least try, maybe I can save one pig, but not thousands of microbes that I cannot see, but at least I saved a life.
 
Serg
Serg
@A.B. I should have plenty of time today, so i will try to work on as many questions as possible
 
terdon
terdon
There's just no way around that at our current level of technology.
 
Serg
Serg
OK boys, taking suggestions here
 
terdon
terdon
2:18 PM
@ParanoidPanda Sure! Vegetarian is one thing. Vegan is completely different.
 
Serg
Serg
what should I try in virtualbox ?
I mean, what OS I should try next ?
 
user136984
I see no problem in pushing it further to that degree. Vegetarians still kill, just more indirectly.
 
Serg
Serg
OOOOO, wait, I think I know . . . Deepin
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda So do vegans.
And how do vegetarians kill any more than vegans?
 
user136984
Eggs etc.
 
terdon
terdon
2:20 PM
@ParanoidPanda Huh? Those aren't alive!
 
user136984
And vegetarians still don't mind steeling from other animals.
 
terdon
terdon
Well, no more than any other cell anyway.
 
user136984
No, but they grind up male chicks because they can't reproduce.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Stealing? Stealing unfertlised eggs?
@ParanoidPanda Again, free range. Nobody said you should buy the horrible stuff.
Eating an egg is no discomfort to the chicken whatsoever. That egg could not have grown into a chick and would have simply gone bad if left there. Fertilized eggs (which we don't eat) would be a different matter.
 
user136984
But you haven't asked the chickens, and other animals, if they want to be there or not, and if they don't have the ability to tell you, then you shouldn't decide for them.
 
terdon
terdon
2:23 PM
@ParanoidPanda But you are deciding for them just as much as I am. Why do you assume they don't want to be there? Your premise is that they cannot give consent, that does not imply the absence of consent any more than it implies its presence.
 
user136984
Well, why can't chickens fly? Because they didn't want to be with us so they would fly away, and we decided to prevent them from being able to fly.
 
terdon
terdon
Why would a chicken not like to be in a nice farm with free food and guaranteed shelter and protection from predators? Perhaps they like to be free but perhaps that's just a human idea.
 
user136984
We shouldn't assume that they like, nor dislike it. But we certainly shouldn't force anything upon them.
 
user136984
Freedom.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Even if that were true, that is a crime of previous generations and not one we can undo so it's irrelevant.
@ParanoidPanda But you are forcing. Eviction is just as much an imposition as imprisonment.
Either way, you are making a choice for the animal.
 
user136984
2:25 PM
But that crime does not give us the right to carry on treating them like we do.
 
user136984
Maybe we should allow them to choose.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Again, speaking only for farm chickens, we treat them perfectly well.
 
user136984
I'm sure if we left the gate open they would leave.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Um. No, actually. I've seen wandering chickens often enough. They leave the neighbors house and come scrabbling in my yard and then happily go back home for dinner.
 
user136984
But we mostly don't have nice organic farmed chickens, we have factory farmed.
 
terdon
terdon
2:26 PM
That's a different discussion and a point I will not argue. Those are horrible.
 
user136984
Just because we have trained them to live with us, and that is all they know, does not mean it is right.
 
user136984
And when they get weak, we slaughter them, now that is just horrible.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda So you're saying they are not capable of making an informed decision so we should impose our own anthropocentric morality on them and evict them from their comfortable roost?
@ParanoidPanda No different than what would happen to them in the wild. Better, in fact, than being disemboweled and eaten alive.
 
user136984
No, but something just feels really wrong about assuming.
 
terdon
terdon
But that's just it. You're assuming either way.
 
user136984
2:28 PM
I would prefer to die free.
 
terdon
terdon
You would. But would they?
Or would they rather spend their lives well fed and safe?
 
user136984
This still feels wrong...
 
user136984
It is not for us to decide.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda We have no choice but to decide. One way or the other.
Humans have developed our (wonderful) morality and that is a great thing. For humans. Attempting to impose it on nature is hubris and fundamentally doomed to fail.
 
user136984
@terdon: Just because we made a choice a long time ago does not mean that we should still stick with it and decide not to impose with a different decision. I think that we should do the best we can to release them all back into the wild, even if we have to breed certain things back into them.
 
terdon
terdon
2:35 PM
@ParanoidPanda And do you really believe that would be a better life for prey?
Would you rather be killed by a lion or have your throat slit by a farmer? Bearing in mind the eaten alive bit.
 
user136984
I think that it should be as nature intended, if we keep them from al possible outside danger, then we are interrupting and destroying their natural development in an unacceptable way.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Does that include us? Should we stop wearing clothes and taking medicine? How about helping a wounded animal? Should we let it die? Not to mention that what nature intended is for us to kill to survive. Veganism is about as unnatural as it gets.
Nature is vicious, cruel and blind. Not something to glorify but something to work against.
 
user136984
We should separate ourselves from nature.
 
terdon
terdon
Agreed.
But that is not what nature "intended".
 
user136984
Well, nature can go to hell! >;P
 
terdon
terdon
2:43 PM
Quite.
 
user136984
When it comes to us anyway, not other animals.
 
terdon
terdon
The corollary to that though, is that we can improve on it.
Not that we've done a very good job of it so far, mind you.
 
user136984
Nature is just a concept though, why do we consider a house than an ant built of metal natural, when we don't consider it so if a human built it the same way?
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Because we're idiots. Basically.
Though, if an ant built a house of metal, I'd have to seriously reconsider my opinion on ants.
 
user136984
On a different matter, I found some malware, uploaded it to VirusTotal, but before I had completed a full analysis of it, I accidentally deleted it, is it reasonable to write to them to ask if they can give me the malware sample?
 
terdon
terdon
2:46 PM
By the same token though, why does a lion have the right to kill and we don't? We're both natural.
 
user136984
Because we understand that there is something wrong, it does not.
 
user136984
When you gain that ability to understand, you can't just turn your back.
 
terdon
terdon
That assumes there is something wrong. That's the conclusion you are trying to demonstrate, you can't use it as a premise.
 
user136984
Well, right and wrong is a matter of opinion, they are just human concepts different in different people.
 
terdon
terdon
Precisely. And can only be defended thusly.
Not as absolute truths. Which brings us back to the whole problem of imposing your own human morality on other species.
 
user136984
2:50 PM
But you are still imposing something, for instance you impose their purpose in life, maybe we should just leave them alone and not to impose anything.
 
terdon
terdon
How would that work? Should we suddenly release all cows and chickens into the wild? I'm sure the local predators would appreciate that but I doubt the freed animals will.
 
user136984
No, but we should try to make things right and as they should be again, we should breed them to best survive (perhaps), and then release them, or we should at least do something different from what we are doing now.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Again, you are imposing your own morality and version of what is "right" on animals that, by your own admission, are not capable of making that choice.
 
user136984
Why don't we try and ask them?
 
terdon
terdon
Who decides what's "as it should be"?
@ParanoidPanda Try.
 
user136984
2:55 PM
See what makes them happy and sad.
 
terdon
terdon
I've rarely had a constructive discussion with a chicken.
 
user136984
To know them, you have to know yourself first.
 
terdon
terdon
@ParanoidPanda Most animals have no way of feeling one or the other. That requires a certain level of sophistication and a central nervous system.
@ParanoidPanda Oh please. Let's avoid the trite clichés, shall we?
 
user136984
Well what did you want me to say?! :P
 
Serg
Serg
You guys still have a vegan vs meat-lover discussion ?
 
user136984
2:58 PM
Anyway...
 
user136984
On a different matter, I found some malware, uploaded it to VirusTotal, but before I had completed a full analysis of it, I accidentally deleted it, is it reasonable to write to them to ask if they can give me the malware sample?
 
Serg
Serg
Em . . . .shouldn't you have like a submission link or something saved ?
 
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