Game Development

your laggy ui most likely was because the proprietary driver for your gpu wasn't new enough (or other hand, too new and buggy), which could have been fixed with open source drivers

snake5

apart from the window system

@Lasse nope nope nope

Lasse

okay then, you must know better than me how things work

snake5

I've tried good enough drivers

Lasse

11:06 AM

be careful there, you are very close to getting on my ignore list because of your ignorance

snake5

and still had the issue

why not your ignorance?

you seem to know things without research

Lasse

what makes you think I haven't researched

snake5

I've tried it on ATI HD 4850 with good drivers - still had laggy UI

@Lasse from the response I got

Jon

maybe you were doing it wrong

snake5

apart from the problems in the design of the window system (it being networked and all), it's also by default vsync'ed for some reason

Lasse

11:07 AM

I really think you are making stuff up, the gui never lags without driver issue

Jon

video drivers need to be installed seperately

Lasse

oh how much memory did you have?

snake5

@Lasse "never", huh?

I smell ignorance

@Lasse 2GB, less than 1GB used

Jon

lol, and with that I am done

snake5

or 4, I don't remember anymore

either way, less than 1GB used

I once found a way to disable vsync

Lasse

11:09 AM

I got 10, and the gui sometimes starts to lag a bit, not much but enough for me to notice it when the memory fills up

snake5

it immediately became way more responsive

so there's clearly a problem with that

I think it was when I was fiddling around with the compiz configuration manager

Lasse

if you fixed it with vsync, it's gpu driver problem

snake5

huh

what do drivers have to do with it?

Lasse

drivers control how vsync works

snake5

so?

Jon

11:11 AM

this is what your little fight looks like to me

snake5

windows shouldn't slide behind the cursor

they should stick perfectly to the cursor at all times

which means there's a two frame delay between me doing the action and the system responding

probably some pointless roundtrips since the window system is networked

Lasse

it's not exactly networked when it's local

snake5

no, it still is

there's still a communication protocol in place

Lasse

so now you're the expert on that?

snake5

a connection from client to server is still required

@Lasse I don't need to be, it's how it works

check the design documents

client and server being on the same PC doesn't mean that it's suddenly not networked

Lasse

11:14 AM

I know how it works, I've made my own window manager

snake5

can I see it?

Lasse

it's pretty crappy

snake5

might help me understand if we're talking about the same kind of a window manager

Lasse

just a sec I'm trying to find the tutorial I based it on

can't find it :(

either I don't remember which google search terms I used or it's been buried somewhere within the results

snake5

:/

Lasse

11:18 AM

all-day-breakfast.com/wm2

here's some 2000 line wm for you

if you are interested

the connection to x11 is abstracted, which means it can make the connection via network or in memory

linux has so many different ways connecting software together

windows has only network and shared memory

snake5

@Lasse doesn't really matter where it makes the connection, just that the system design requires several roundtrips to get things done

@Lasse windows has pipes too

Lasse

oh it does?

snake5

yes

the API is just a bit more verbose though

Kevin van der Velden

Any decent OS (and windows) does :)

Lasse

didn't know it had pipes

Kevin van der Velden

11:21 AM

Nothing really uses them AFAIK

Lasse

since when?

snake5

should be a long time ago

win2k at least

msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/… like I said

Lasse

oh btw which wm did you use when it lagged?

snake5

default ubuntu one

also, compiz

Lasse

so it's unity you used

snake5

11:24 AM

or whatever was there with it

unity was just one

Lasse

I have never had a good unity experience

snake5

I was using ubuntu before the unity era too

Lasse

and if you used compiz, it's been known to be glitchy

snake5

so, metacity

I've tried lots of those

compiz was closest to what I wanted in terms of responsiveness

apart from the vsync-less tearing which I got when I disabled it

windows, on the other hand, has windowing built into the kernel

without networking

windows are native system resources

BlueBug

best gif of my lif3 i.imgur.com/NnWqcCh.gif wAt a quality.

Lasse

11:37 AM

@BlueBug imgur.com/gallery/pkO6v

BlueBug

LMAO

snake5

:D

Lasse

@snake5 tbh I really hate how x11 works, and fortunately past two years some people have been developing a whole new windowing protocol called Wayland

the beauty of linux is that if you want to run it on server, you don't have to have any graphical gui there in your way eating resources, like you have on windows servers

that's why you can't get windows servers with less than 512mb memory, and no less than 1 gig is not recommended

snake5

@Lasse but it's just the same as X

Kevin van der Velden

Also fun is that if you do for whatever reason need a gui, you can start up a program that starts a VNC server and is a proper Graphics environment

Lasse

11:43 AM

no it's not

snake5

I want a non-networked window system

Lasse

you can't get one

snake5

why not?

Lasse

why you want such thing?

Jon

why are you wasting your time bitching

snake5

11:44 AM

because it's easier to develop, thus more stable, also it's more responsive and its design doesn't suck

Jon

i came in here last night, you were bitching about linux... i come in here this morning, you are still on the same shit

snake5

it doesn't need to pass messages forward and back to do the simplest things

Jon

get to work

Lasse

I didn't bitch last night

Kevin van der Velden

@snake5 eeh, how are you going to tell a window system to do something without sending a message?

snake5

11:45 AM

@KevinvanderVelden same way as windows, call a function

Lasse

@snake5 that's not how things work

snake5

it's so obvious

@Lasse it is on windows

and I see no technical issues with it

Kevin van der Velden

Yes, which sends a message to another system?

Lasse

it's not, on windows you get messages

@snake5 have you even made any gui software?

snake5

@KevinvanderVelden why don't you read windows source first?

Kevin van der Velden

11:46 AM

@snake5 because it's not opensource?

Lasse

what

snake5

@Lasse those are user-space messages

@KevinvanderVelden you can still get it

Kevin van der Velden

That's actually a pretty good reason I can't read the source code first

Lasse

@snake5 huh?

snake5

@Lasse it was uploaded to torrent websites

Lasse

11:46 AM

@snake5 you drag a window with mouse, your window gets messages

snake5

@Lasse in user-space

there's no client->server->client->server etc. bullshit like there is with X

Lasse

yes there is

snake5

bullshit

Kevin van der Velden

@snake5 no, there's kernel->client->kernel->client, what's the difference?

Lasse

you are just idiot, welcome to my ignore list

snake5

11:47 AM

go read win2k source code

@Lasse github.com/snake5/sgs-ui

Kevin van der Velden

It's still just copying data in the ram, same as with X11

snake5

@KevinvanderVelden no roundtrips

Kevin van der Velden

@snake5 same roundtrip

snake5

bullshit

client calls kernel, call returns

there's no roundtrip

in X, client calls server, server calls client

Kevin van der Velden

That is a roundtrip

snake5

11:48 AM

@KevinvanderVelden that is a simple function call

do you not know what a function call is or what?

Kevin van der Velden

Hold on, I'm looking at the source for wayland

Bla can't find what I'm looking for fast enough given that I'm at work

snake5

cgit.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/tree/src this is clearly a client-server system

events have to be sent over the network at all times

Kevin van der Velden

Where network is also known as RAM

snake5

doesn't matter what it's called

Kevin van der Velden

No TCP/IP stack required

snake5

11:53 AM

or, how you call it

Kevin van der Velden

It does for speed

Calling it network implies sending it over ethernet, which is inaccurate

snake5

the point is that it still requires an event to go through the whole system

@KevinvanderVelden how does it imply that here?

Kevin van der Velden

@snake5 because that is the typical meaning of network

snake5

anyway, in windows, events are processed by simply passing them to the callback at user-space - SendMessage etc. functions actually just call the callback, without any involvement of an event transport system

is that a better explanation? X/wayland/etc - event transport system, windows - no such thing

Kevin van der Velden

Eeh, except the event transport system in the kernel

snake5

11:56 AM

no it is not there, ffs

Kevin van der Velden

They're not instant, they're buffered and send later

@snake5 msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/…

snake5

some of them are queued at user-space, obviously

they're not "sent" anywhere in the "typical" meaning of the word

"thread message queue"

meaning, messages don't go out of the thread

Kevin van der Velden

@snake5 this also includes the WM_PAINT messages from the kernel

snake5

kernel may obviously add messages to the queue

Kevin van der Velden

@snake5 meaning that this is the thread specific queue for messages

snake5

11:58 AM

@KevinvanderVelden still, there's no sending

messages are simply processed at the earliest possible opportunity

Kevin van der Velden

You mean like this? msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/…

I don't understand what you mean no sending?

snake5

yes

"does not return until the window procedure has processed the message"

which pretty much means "without queue"

or waiting until queue gets to that point

Kevin van der Velden

> To send a message and return immediately, use the SendMessageCallback or SendNotifyMessage function. To post a message to a thread's message queue and return immediately, use the PostMessage or PostThreadMessage function.

i.e. it waits for the other thread to process it's messages and post a reply

Uuh no reply

Just for it to be received on the other end

This is useful for synchronisation and as such is provided

snake5

"If the specified window was created by the calling thread, the window procedure is called immediately as a subroutine."

here's what I said

Kevin van der Velden

If you post a message on the same thread, in all other cases go to the kernel and ask it nicely to deliver the message

snake5

12:02 PM

this is the common case

the other cases mostly come from the kernel, sometimes directly

Kevin van der Velden

The kernel is not going to interrupt whatever the program is currently doing and call the callback

snake5

"If the specified window was created by a different thread, the system switches to that thread and calls the appropriate window procedure."

anyway, that's what the queue is usually for

Leathe

12:59 PM

hnnnnng @ drupal migration

that is all.

Lasse

nowdays hnnnnng @ webdev

snake5

huh

webdev ain't hnnnnng anymore

IE6 pretty much died, IE7 is going away too

things get noticeably better

Jon

and by better you mean you are complaining about it less?

snake5

I have less motivation to complain about it and yeah, I don't do it as often as I did before

Jon

ie: IE6 is being phased out finally

user92578

1:21 PM

NO WORK TOMORROW!

user92578

Hi!

GnomeSlice

Today's Listening | Progchip / Instrumental

Almo

1:35 PM

@AidanMueller yup :)

Jon

apparently a screenshot of the new unreal tournament... MEHHH

snake5

youtube.com/watch?v=z8Nlz7XonCs yeah, from here

so far, good artwork, but no game in sight

Jon

they haven't launched the kickstarter yet

snake5

I thought they were going to crowdsource the whole thing

Jon

suppose to be a free to play game eh?

Kevin van der Velden

1:47 PM

@Jon looks fancy though

snake5

yeah

Jon

The new Unreal Tournament will be free, moddable and developed with players

Did someone say penis guns?

snake5

someone somewhere probably did

there's always someone

Jon

There is a penis mod for skyriim

you should youtube it... oh man

it is a bit much

snake5

not sure yet, I'm at work :D

Jon

1:49 PM

Yeah, but the general idea apparently is to allow players to fork the game

and mod it

and considering that the Unreal Dev Kit is practically free now

Penises for everyone!!!!

I used to run a terraria server

snake5

@Jon sounds like something that someone would put in his bible as "god's plan"

Jon

Never once has a map not have a penis

snake5

must be some caveman thing

they used to draw what they wanted to have on cave walls

Jon

can you spot the penis?

snake5

@Jon yes

Jon

1:54 PM

I looked at these like massive ant farms

Ali.S

@Jon tell me it's not drawn by hand

Jon

This is a terraria world.

done over the span of like a week or two by players

I've got like 10 worlds like this

I tried merging them all togther into a superworld and put it up

It was highly unplayable..

too much overlap, hehe

the land tiles basically messed it all up

Lasse

@Jon found it

too easy

Jon

lol, exactly

we had kids coming in, all traumatized by the penises

I had to delete some of the worse things

like swastikas and stuff like that

not really wanting to promote hate -- also there were some pretty gross penises

deleted the overly gross ones

Lasse

I have so far found 5 penises from the first picture

Jon

2:03 PM

you can play with the number at the end of the filename

if you want to look for more penises in other worlds

Lasse

lol

not really

but I'm wondering how hard would it be to make penis recognition software

hmm

Jon

lol

snake5

@Lasse how hard indeed

Jon

apparently that anonymous video site has one for video

snake5

>_>

Jon

2:04 PM

wang detector

hold a flute up and you will get flagged

a big black flute

Lasse

this is great too: youtube.com/watch?v=pYVHDd8UrsQ

Jon

businessinsider.com/…

pda-pro.net

haha

Lasse

will it recognise drawn ones too

Jon

Kevin van der Velden

@Jon I... don't know if that's a false positive or not

Lasse

2:09 PM

oh it's saas

Kevin van der Velden

It's clearly what they were going for

Lasse

kind of hard to implement that in some game

Jon

its a fake site for those who think its real

Lasse

lol fooled me

Jon

When an image is scanned with, the PDA creates a unique and compact digital ‘fingerprint’ for it, then efficiently compares It to the ‘phallic print’ in our extensive databases. PDA can even find a partial fingerprint-to-phallicprint match. Those matches take into account altered or animated images.

We have alpha’ed (internally) NDA which is a nipple detection algorithm and have a VD (vaginal detection) algorithm being released later this year.

I dare you to sign up for the beta.

Lasse

2:21 PM

Maybe I should, just for laughs

Jon

ask really serious questions

snake5

like, "do I have to sign a NDA?"

and they're like "which NDA?"

Lasse

A&W made a competitive burger for quarter pounder and named it third pounder, but it flopped because people thought it was smaller than quarter pounder

in the 80's

Almo

depressingly unsurprising

SpartanDonut

fractions are hard

We should obviously change the whole system to make it more intuitive for people

Lasse

2:31 PM

you do that and you might save humanity from destroying itself

Almo

I can just see it: "The Point-Two-Five Pounder with Cheese"

Icy Defiance

use ounces

Lasse

but ounce is less than a pound, duh

Almo

"The Four-Ouncer With Cheese"

SpartanDonut

I was more referring to something along the lines of "when comparing fractions where the numerators are equal, the fraction with the larger denominator is larger than the other"

Icy Defiance

2:32 PM

@Lasse yeah but 4 is way bigger than 1/4

Almo

doesn't have the same ring as "Quarter Pounder with Cheese"

SpartanDonut

That way 1/3 really is smaller than 1/4

Lasse

@IcyDefiance but it's still pound eh, not tiny ounce

SpartanDonut

It in no way makes any sense to anyone who understands math but at least the general populace will understand now

Icy Defiance

@Lasse but you don't have to use units in the commercials

you show a 1/4 pound burger with the number 1/4 next to it, then make it grow and put 4 next to it. say "that's our burger. yeah."

Almo

2:35 PM

hehe

Icy Defiance

wait...we've been talking about 1/4 lb, but A&W's burger was 1/3 lb. that would be 5 1/3 oz...

lol my plan has been ruined :(

Lasse

american weights are silly

user92578

What should I call a component that allows entities to shoot stuff?

user92578

ComponentWeapon?

Jon

McShooter

Lasse

2:38 PM

and they become even sillier because for some reason I always think about lobsters when I see "lbs"

@Tyyppi_77 whatever makes sense to you

Jon

I'd drop the "Component"

SpartanDonut

@Jon Is that like a dessert shooter but with the fixings of a Big Mac?

user92578

Nah, all my components are named ComponentPosition, ComponentSprite etc.

Jon

its the McDonald's Convention... everything starts with Mc

int McNumber = 2;

user92578

McBigMac?

Almo

2:41 PM

@Lasse You mean "Imperial". We were just dumb enough to keep them from the Brits. Jefferson apparently wanted to go metric, since he knew at the start of the nation was the best time or it would never change.

At least he got the damned money fixed.

Icy Defiance

@Tyyppi_77 obviously you need drop the "Component" in all of them!

right now, soldier!

user92578

But it's not a Sprite... it's a component sprite = ComponentSprite

user92578

It's not a jump, it's a component jump = ComponentJump

Icy Defiance

sure, but if you're inheriting from a component class then you know that without the name, and if you're not inheriting from a component class then it doesn't matter

Jon