Game Development

AttackingHobo

5:00 PM

@JoshPetrie meh. even playing something like Cs 1.6 would look awesome in 5k

doesn't matter that the texture are shit, the lines will be much crisper, and you can see details on far away objects

Icy Defiance

not just textures, but mesh and lighting quality

user4704

I'm sure it would look nice, but I don't think it would look significantly nicer without corresponding asset and engine support.

Icy Defiance

resolution is a surprisingly insignificant part of how a game looks, especially once you add a good AA algorithm

AttackingHobo

@JoshPetrie spoiler, it will.

snake5

@JoshPetrie there just wouldn't be enough graphics content to properly fill a 5k resolution

MickLH

5:01 PM

I'd be more worried about bandwidth though

user4704

I dunno, I'm not going to believe it until I see it. D3 reshipped a ton of resources and assets to run in "retina mode" on the MBP.

AttackingHobo

Dude of course higher res textures are going to look better.

snake5

I've played GTA:SA on 1280x1024, a game for which the original resolution was closer to 640x480

but it looked somewhat better only because with 640x480, the pixels were glaringly obvious

user4704

@AttackingHobo Right, that's what I mean; I haven't ever seen a game run in a 'retina' resolution that wasn't tweaked for it.

snake5

that's no longer the case with 1080p and above

MickLH

5:03 PM

One RGBA32F buffer costs you 80MB at retina res

user4704

So my hunch is still that it won't look that much nicer.

AttackingHobo

@JoshPetrie it does look nicer esp with smaller objects. I played pica sim, on my 720p phone, and then played it on my friends 2k phone. Holy shit its amazing. The graphics for the planes are not high res at all.

play.google.com/store/apps/…

MickLH

So even a small g-buffer is going to be like 100MB at that res

snake5

@AttackingHobo but the graphics for the background art are

MickLH

Which means just to fill the buffer without lighting or anything, costs you at least 5gb/s to get 60fps

AttackingHobo

5:06 PM

@snake5 not really, they are kind of low res.

Icy Defiance

@AttackingHobo it doesn't look like that game is using any form of AA, so the edges will look better at higher resolution, yes

snake5

@AttackingHobo they don't appear to be

Icy Defiance

but if you add a good AA algorithm you won't notice much difference

snake5

because of the composition

user4704

Ugh, this review does not mention the refresh rate. :(

user4704

5:07 PM

I need to know if it runs at 30hz or 60hz :(

AttackingHobo

@JoshPetrie apple doesn't do choppy. Its gona be 60

Icy Defiance

pfft, 30 fps is more cinematic /s

user4704

I hope so, because I won't buy it at 30.

MickLH

30 fps is more lacking fps.

Icy Defiance

I think they should start making movies at 12 fps, or maybe 6. It should be really cinematic then.

AttackingHobo

5:08 PM

@IcyDefiance did you know that human eye cannot distinguish above 5 fps.

Icy Defiance

@AttackingHobo the human eye doesn't work in fps, so any claims like that are automatically bullshit

MickLH

But seriously that 5gb/s minimum g-buffer cost is ridiculous, that's including using the depth buffer and packing values tight

AttackingHobo

anything above 10fps will damage your eyes permanently. and will make your eyes turn to soap opera mode in real life.

@IcyDefiance /s

@IcyDefiance did you know that human eye cannot distinguish above 2 fps.

Icy Defiance

right, 5 fps is sarcastic, but I've seen a lot of people who honestly believe the same about 120 fps

a few have even said it about 30 fps -.-'

AttackingHobo

I can tell the dif between 120 and 240 personally

I know they seriously say that. and they are retarded I guess

Roy T.

5:10 PM

Anyone thought that seeing The Hobbit at 48FPS didn't add much

AttackingHobo

@RoyT. didn't see it at 48fps

user4704

30hz refresh rates make my head hurt. I can't tell the difference above 60, my brother swears he can't use anything less than 120hz but I don't really buy that.

AttackingHobo

didnt see it at all actually

Roy T.

Well it didnt add much :)

Icy Defiance

actually I haven't seen it, so I don't know, but some of the drama about it was delicious

user4704

5:11 PM

I didn't see the hobbit, I hated the LotR movies.

Icy Defiance

generated lots of popcorn

MickLH

Why the fuck would it, the only reason 120 or 240 looks any "better" is because we're using wrong math to compute our frames

Using videos of real life, is like using recorded audio

Roy T.

I guess when you, yourself are inputting you notice it earlier. But I doubt more than 100fps wouldn't do much for me in games

@MickLH wrong math?

AttackingHobo

@MickLH I twitch aim so high fps is super helpful for me

MickLH

Yes

We don't do bandlimited rendering

We render extremely high frequency harmonics into a sampled buffer which loses data, hence aliasing

Even our AA algorithms are a fake hack to take away the worst symptom of the problem without solving it

Icy Defiance

5:14 PM

so basically we need games that control real humans right in front of us instead of using monitors or any of that crap

MickLH

Yeah

Icy Defiance

we could call it "outside"

MickLH

We got a few billion disposable ones anyways

user4704

No, it's cold outside.

user4704

I'm not going out there.

MickLH

5:15 PM

We could give every human their own human to play "outside" with

Icy Defiance

#Josh good point

user4704

Also the skybox around here is really low res and the draw distance blows.

snake5

@IcyDefiance sounds like the plot of the gamer movie

Icy Defiance

cops don't stop chasing you just because you went indoors either

AttackingHobo

sounds like more /r/outside

snake5

5:17 PM

@IcyDefiance depends on where you go indoors

it kinda works with embassies

MickLH

I hope I get to see bandlimited 3D in my life time :*(

AttackingHobo

@MickLH what exactly do you mean by bandlimited 3D?

Roy T.

@Jon haha I found you had twitter via another person on twitter that retweeted your picture

MickLH

Are you familiar with bandlimited audio?

Icy Defiance

@snake5 yeah but only if you're distinguished enough for them to let you in, or you bribe a guard or something, and both of those take way too much grinding to be able to do.

AttackingHobo

5:19 PM

@MickLH no.

MickLH

@AttackingHobo The Nyquist sampling theorem states that you can completely reproduce a waveform if it's been sampled at a rate that is double the highest frequency

Which is the reasoning behind 44100Hz rate for CD audio, because it's generally considered that human hearing ends at 22kHz even for the best ears

AttackingHobo

oh ok. I get how that would work for audio, but not for video.... Well I guess sample at twice the size of the smallest object you can see?

Byte56

@JoshPetrie You were talking about Guild Wars 2 in this comment right? gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/86204/…

MickLH

It's more complex because of the higher dimensions, literally years worth of thoughts I could explain on this topic, but the "resolution" of the video is a lot like the "bit depth" of audio

Byte56

It said Good Wars 2. I changed it :)

user4704

5:22 PM

@Byte56 lol

user4704

Thanks.

Almo

@AttackingHobo the difference between 30 and 60 is painfully obvious to me.

user4704

Typing on the train, SE mobile sucks.

Almo

I'm always surprised when I hear the claim that above 30 is useless

MickLH

It's been considered I mean, that's what current AA improves on. But there is a lot more to it, that 60Hz rate we use obviously can't capture everything we could see, like a bullet flying by for example

But we try to render everything we could see into it

In digital audio this is a FUCKING HUGE no-no

You do not, absolutely do not, render harmonics above half the sampling rate. They get spread across the spectrum and don't even produce their intended frequency at all

user4704

5:24 PM

@Almo It's based on the 16hz "persistence of vision" metric, I think.

MickLH

Some games have tried to deal with it, there are things like per-object motion blur becoming popular

AttackingHobo

@MickLH I personally don't like that. Those per object blurs only work if you are not moving your eyes

Almo

@JoshPetrie could be

MickLH

But a fundamental issue I can't resolve yet is that it simply requires rendering in 4D to get a correct answer

@AttackingHobo I also dislike them immensely, they make me uncomfortable in some way

user4704

Which makes sense, but I can also accept that some people have different thresholds for that because biology is squishy. And there's more than just the raw frame rate in play -- for example, temporary stutters of ~5FPS are more noticible at an average of 30 than an average of 60.

MickLH

5:25 PM

@JoshPetrie This is perfect, exactly where I was going with it

user4704

60FPS Halo 5 felt noticeably different than 30 FPS Halo 4, to me.

Almo

The easiest way to see the difference that I've found was to get Gran Turismo on PS1, and run it normally, which is at 30 FPS. then unlock GT HiFi mode (or whatever it was called) and play in 60 FPS. The difference is stunning.

MickLH

While I'm a purist who will close a game if it dips below 60 Hz, I also believe that a properly rendered 24hz could show you everything you ever wanted to see and the only drawback is the minor latency imposed by having a framerate at all

But it would require doing a space-time integral for each pixel of each frame

AttackingHobo

@MickLH naw. too much motion blur, esp if you have head tracking

MickLH

The thing is you're just making an emotional guess after a few minutes on internet chat

Where I've put in several years of scientific experiments

AttackingHobo

5:29 PM

I studied and researched human visual systems for the past few years while very interested in VR

MickLH

And I believe in the "emotional factor" anyways because I've seen gamers consistently rate 24 fps with correct processing as "smoother" than 60 fps with naive processing

Unanimously actually

AttackingHobo

I should be able to keep my eyes on an object and rapidly move the screen while keeping my eyes on a smoothly moving object. there is no way to do that in 24fps

MickLH

Including gamers who claim to be unable to settle for less than 120hz eyefinity blah blah whatever

AttackingHobo

either you get blur, or you get stutter

MickLH

You'll get the same at 60hz too

It's the latency I mentioned

user4704

5:31 PM

@MickLH Pretty sure this is the same bucket the "audiophile" people fall into.

MickLH

You're proven correct lol

Audiophiles consistently rate properly bandlimited signals at a lower sampling rate as having better quality than naive signals at higher rates

AttackingHobo

@MickLH 24hz also has more input lag, and I don't know how you could do it properly without looking into the future or adding more input delay

user4704

Well that's because they weren't listening to the high rate audio using their pre-frozen gold cables

Almo

^

MickLH

@AttackingHobo I don't know either, like I said this is still the "big problem" with it

I guess I'll have to release some of my research on the topic :/

AttackingHobo

5:34 PM

@MickLH its like saying that anyone can win the lottery, they just have to know the future, easy, other than that one big problem, its so easy.

MickLH

Sure, in an irrelevant way.

You just have to feel it lol, there's no point in talking about it when you could just see what "12hz playable" feels like for yourself

Roy T.

if you can make properly filtered 24fps, you can also do it at 48fps, right? input lag problem solved

MickLH

@RoyT. That's why I run it at vsync still, but the problem is just moved not solved

AttackingHobo

And most of this works for most games on a traditional display. But not for VR

MickLH

The lower rates actually are more subjectively pleasing

Roy T.

5:36 PM

@MickLH btw what do you think about the new thing AMD and nVidia are doing where they sync with the screen to get perfect V-sync?

MickLH

I think that the ideal is to compose at the persistence of vision rate, to simulate a human eye in the scene instead of simulating a camera in the scene

AttackingHobo

@MickLH we need perfect eye tracking for that to be viable

MickLH

We need a hell of a lot of bandwidth and compute too, I think the eye tracking might be ready first

AttackingHobo

if there is a car driving past me at 200mph I could track it with my eyes

in a engine it would be a blury mess even if I tracked it with my eyes

MickLH

@RoyT. I think it's "about damn time"

AttackingHobo

5:38 PM

with the correct 24hz motion blur

Almo

@RoyT. about fucking time. get it straight.

:D

AttackingHobo

also even with cameras they still can't get fast panning or tracking to look non stuttery

MickLH

@AttackingHobo I can ;)

I honestly wouldn't be writing a game engine if I didn't have something up my sleeve to make it worth it

I already wrote my 10 or so toy game engines

Almo

want to run brainfuck code directly on stackexchange?

18

Q: Stack Snippets - Interpret a Language with JavaScript

Stack Snippets were recently added to PPCG! Reminiscent of JSFiddle, Stack Snippets allow HTML, CSS, and JavaScript to be run directly in posts! Here is a very simple Stack Snippet: alert('This is JavaScript') h3 { color: red } /* This is CSS */ <h3>This is HTML</h3> This feature o...

one of the answers does that

user4704

Wish they'd add useful features with their engineering time. :|

user4704

5:42 PM

Like bulk tag remove!

Almo

^

AttackingHobo

@MickLH I would like to see a demo for myself I guess.

MickLH

@AttackingHobo What will honestly happen is I'll get motivated to work super hard for like another couple hours and then I'll take the rest of the day off, and the next day my hours of motivation will be less, and the pattern will continue until I find myself just sleeping my time away until I have to work for money again

MickLH

6:08 PM

@Almo I put a Python interpreter into an answer for this question, and I tried to do "Run Code Snippet" and it crashed my tabs

Almo

6:22 PM

sorry about your tabs :(

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