The Upper Room - 2014-04-15

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1:29 AM

@AskElisha I think that's one thing to be proud of being American. Religious freedom. :)

Though, I think UK has a lot more cultural adherents to Christianity. :P

I still think it'd be so cool to be a cultural Christian. You celebrate Christmas and Easter and don't meat on Fridays and fast during Lent just as a cultural custom. :)

And you don't really have to believe the church doctrines, since you're already a member because of your parents who baptized you as a wee baby.

Hmmm... I always wonder what it would be like to become a "cultural Christian". Perhaps, when I get married and have children in the far future, I would probably convert formally to Christianity and ask the priest to baptize my children too, but don't really care if they remain as Christians for life. Maybe my cultural Christian children would just use the church as a social networking place, a place to hold weddings, and a place to hold funerals, but really not believe in any of the doctrines.

Though, I'd probably have to choose a very liberal church or a Roman Catholic church.

2:08 AM

Cultural Christianity probably doesn't work for first-generation Christians, whose explicit faith and practice would probably be required.

I suppose 2nd-generation Christians are allowed to be cultural, because they are just born in it. :)

@Anonymous Are you a Roman Catholic?

@PaulVargas he's atheist

2:29 AM

Cultural Christianity may be difficult to form in Evangelical Christian communities, because part of Evangelicalism focuses on personal conversion, which is manifested in believer's baptism. As a baby, I doubt there is a personal conversion. The child probably grows up Christian all his life and learns Christian history, doctrine, and practice as he ages.

@Anonymous most of the people that I know who grew up Christian and remained so as adults still has a moment of personal conversion

Cultural Christian

A cultural Christian is a secular or nonreligious individual, or one who is religious but who does not identify with Christian Theology, who still significantly identifies with Christian culture due to family background, personal experiences, or the social and cultural environment in which they grew up. Christian deists of the 18th and early 19th centuries, such as Napoleon and various Founding Fathers of the United States, similarly considered themselves part of Christian culture, despite their doubts about the divinity of Jesus. Contrasting terms are "biblical Christian", "committed C...

@Anonymous most 'biblical Christians' wouldn't consider there to be such a thing TBH

Christian atheism

Christian atheism is a theological position in which the belief in the God of Christianity is rejected or absent but the moral teachings of Jesus are followed. Christian atheism is related to Jesusism, the Christian theological-philosophical movement named for its understanding of Jesus as a simple teacher of morals, in direct contrast to traditional Christianity, which claims that Jesus is divine. Beliefs Thomas Ogletree, Frederick Marquand Professor of Ethics and Religious Studies at Yale Divinity School, lists these four common beliefs: #The assertion of the unreality of God for our ...

its like just because you slap the word 'Christianity' on to something, doesn't mean it is

2:35 AM

@rfusca Really? He looked like a sheep.

@rfusca You're probably right. Christianity is a belief-oriented religion, not a tribal religion like Judaism.

Belief is required for membership in Christianity.

Practice is proof of that belief.

@rfusca That explains a lot.

lol

The tricky thing is determining how much wiggle room there is in theology in order to be accepted as "Christian" by the desired community. Would a deistic god count, or must all Christians be theists instead of classical deists?

On the other hand, Christian deists do exist.

Hey, @Anonymous, in which university you study?

2:42 AM

I'm not sure how a Christian deist could exist. Deism is 'the watchmaker', wind it up and let it go. Christ dying on the cross is the definition of not 'letting it go' .

@rfusca I don't know how it works, but I do know Christian deists exist.

There are also nontheist Quakers.

I always wonder if nontheist Quakers answer questions on this SE.

@Anonymous I don't think mainstream Christianity would accept them as Christian - From that page "But Christian Deists recognize that Jesus was only human."

@rfusca In that respect, orthodox Trinitarian Nicene Christianity would probably also reject Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian.

@Anonymous and many do

@rfusca That's in reality. On the SE, we accept everyone as Christian on face value. :)

2:51 AM

@Anonymous sure, its a site for facts, not beliefs

@rfusca Interestingly, Jehovah's Witnesses think orthodox Trinitarian Nicene Christians are not Christians!

@Anonymous indeed

the two groups are at odds with each other

It sure makes you wonder what definition of "Christian" the groups are using, doesn't it?

@Anonymous not really - if I wanted to call myself "King Mufasa", then it wouldn't have any meaning to anybody apart from me

so, what do you think a typical sermon is like?

@rfusca Likewise, I don't think Catholics would accept Protestants as Christians, because Protestants typically do not believe in apostolic succession.

2:56 AM

@Anonymous perhaps - I won't speak for Catholics though :)

@rfusca You already asked this question, and I think I already told you. It's filled with homiletic sermons.

@rfusca This is the Christianity.SE. You can speak for any denomination as long as the answer is well-sourced or researched.

perhaps I'm not clear on what you think 'homiletic' is

@Anonymous negative - I'm simply not qualified :)

@rfusca Homily.

Commentary that follows a reading of scripture.

ah, ic

Churches may have lectionaries that may contain entries to about 2 or 3 years, I think.

3:00 AM

@Anonymous Some do, yes

Not all

rarely did I ever grow up with the messages coming from that however

The sermon or homily part explains what the lectionary says.

sometimes yes, sometimes no - depends on the mood of the pastor, the particular denomination/church, etc

@rfusca Were you ever the altar-boy?

@Anonymous I was an acolyte growing up, yes

@rfusca Were there female acolytes, or was it more of a male thing?

3:03 AM

@Anonymous hmm i don't remember one way or the other

@rfusca Were there any female acolytes?

@Anonymous i'm saying, I don't remember if there were or not

its been a long time ago

@rfusca Do you put that on your resume? I have a former classmate who actually puts "Altar server" on her resume as community service.

@Anonymous lol definitely not

@rfusca Why not?

3:05 AM

a) because I was like 10. b) its a pretty minor thing with no real responsibility

@rfusca Can you still opt for being an acolyte?

@Anonymous we haven't had acolytes at my last several churches. And its typically a younger child who does it

@rfusca Do you wear fancy uniforms too?

@Anonymous now or as a child acolyte?

@rfusca As a child acolyte and now.

3:09 AM

@Anonymous there was some kind of white robe. My church now is very informal. I often go in jeans and a tshirt

@rfusca What about women? Do they wear nice Sunday hats and Sunday dresses?

@Anonymous not typically

they may but not usually

user image

^^^ my current church

@rfusca How did you get that picture?

@Anonymous with a camera?

The church is very contemporary. Where is the altar?

@rfusca Oh, it's your picture.

3:13 AM

@Anonymous its also from the church's facebook page

@rfusca Do you always sit in the backseat? Music too loud?

@Anonymous i'm usually in the back because I help run lights and graphics. If not, i'm up front

@rfusca I see no altar. I see no harmonium. I see no organ. I see no tabernacle.

@Anonymous right

you don't

@rfusca Very contemporary stuff.

3:15 AM

@Anonymous indeed

Most churches I visited don't even have fancy TVs.

Well, not in the sanctuary.

@Anonymous they're projectors

@rfusca Do you ever have a "traditional" worship service?

@Anonymous nope

we dont

@rfusca I think traditional worship service is better than contemporary. Better, softer music.

3:19 AM

@Anonymous i think there's a place for both :) I've got nothing against traditional worship

@rfusca I think Pentecostal worship services are distinctive and cool.

I have never been to one, but I watched one in a public lecture on religion.

ic

I have been to a Jehovah's Witness service, and I don't even know where the music is coming from.

lol

I wasn't entirely sure if it's recorded music or played music.

Jehovah's Witnesses seem to reject everything pagan. Sometimes, I wonder if they would reject elements of the Western wedding too, because they may perceive it as too pagan.

3:33 AM

they'll ostracize family members who turn away from JW

@rfusca I think that's true for many Christian denominations. :P

nah, not like they do

@rfusca I think family is more important than religion.

:)

Other people may believe differently and value differently.

I believe that family interests are more important than individual interests (at times).

3:38 AM

thats the nature of people

I don't get the part where the biblical Jesus tells his disciples that they should hate their family members.

@Anonymous verse?

Luke 14:26 ?

@rfusca Yes.

@Anonymous that's just talking about putting Jesus first in your life, above others and self

4:09 AM

@rfusca Well, since Jesus is dead, I suppose all you have is yourself, your family, and other people. :)

Now, if you believe that Jesus is God, then that's something else entirely.

That verse probably explains why some Christians put God above themselves and their families. Ehhh... I think I will stick with generic humanism.

Christianity can be very interesting from a sociological, anthropological, historical point of view, though.

9 hours later…

1:10 PM

> But I will warn you whom you should fear: Fear the one who, after the killing, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (Luke 12:5 NET)

2 hours later…

3:12 PM

I want to share in an adventure. No. I want to share my story with one who told that judaism is older that christianity.

It started, when I told that christianity is older than islam. Then he said this what I just wrote.

the age of a religion is relatively irrelevant. It's the truth and proof that matters

In other words it didn't feel like it worked out. But now I realise that I should have noted that in torah there are prophecies of messiah to come.

Christianity was once brand new, standing on the shoulders of Judaism

@laovultai and he might point to prophecies (or perceived ones at least) that Muslims take to be about them.

If you want to talk about Christianity to unbelievers, don't start with logic, start with sin and grace

4

But it is interesting that - whether or not he adhered in any religion - he came to this conclusion that judaism is older. Maybe he tried to be apologetical for islam or maybe he just stated the fact?

ok.

@laovultai Judaism is older

it's among the oldest religions still in existance, its' been practiced in one way or another for something like 3.5 millenia

(and traces its roots even further back than that)

3:19 PM

@waxeagle but what I want to point out is, that to me this fact was surprising. I tought that now I have a good argument, but then he made better fact and I had no other words to say.

@waxeagle although it seemed harmless and short discussion I remember what we said in it and I think everyone would like to win, but I think it is to be preached( to teach, proclaim ) rather than argued. But that was all I had. That was my best try to evangelize in that time.

@laovultai aye, you'll have to note what really makes Christianity tick, it's not that it's old. It's that it's true

ok

(Judaism could also make this claim up until the time of Christ)

@waxeagle I pray that this pleased Jesus. I think as a christian there comes a calling of sacrifice, little and small or bigger. It is better to give than to take.

@laovultai I understand completely, and that's definitely our tendency. We have to remember that the call is to preach the gospel, winning souls is God's job.

3

we're not going to convince anyone who isn't already prepared by the Spirit to receive the word

3:28 PM

that's my experience on telling testimony. I pray that it helped God if he needs us in fulfilling great commission.

I agree.

on what you said about God's part in "this"'

:14971679

Hi, @laovultai Where are you from? What do you do?

@PaulVargas I'm not sure whether I want to be kind always, but I have to plead my case before the almighty for I'm man undone. I'm from Finland and I basically study.

@laovultai You can also pray for that person.

I'm a computer programmer in Mexico City, Mexico.

@PaulVargas I have to tell outright that this forum of stackexchange.com has one point that keeps recurring to my mind; stackexchange.com is not a christian site. I have to admit that this fact keeps coming back in my mind and don't know what to do with that.

@laovultai And what are studying?

3:37 PM

@PaulVargas well, I study mathematics.

@laovultai π = 3 in the Bible. 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 :-)

@PaulVargas well 5 means in gematry as grace.

@laovultai So. It is not a ministry of a church. It is a site of a company. But you can say whatever you want in the chat.

@PaulVargas this is interesting, when I'm studying I noticed that there is a book club in local church at 6:30 pm local time and now I'm reminded of going there.

I mean that my conscience tells me something and does not let me be in rest.

3:53 PM

@laovultai Is about this site or something else?

@PaulVargas well, I mean that there is a book club in my local church at 6:30 pm tonight and I'm feeling that I'm not at rest when I'm feeling about getting there or not.

now my time is up. thanks and greetings.

4:22 PM

@laovultai it does make it a rather different and unique environment

but yeah, chat is much more open than the constraints of the site itself

though there are still some constraints that make it uncomfortable for some (such as the accepted definition of "Christian" for the site), which I think just about everyone on the site can pretty much agree is overly broad, but is the only standard that is fair to everyone who believes themselves to fit within their definition of the term

that understanding that this is a place for people to discuss groups that call themselves Christian rather than talking about "True" (bit T) Christianity is a hard concept to stomach because it does require quite a bit of abstract thinking to not feel like it is somehow wrong

@laovultai what do you mean by having to plead your case before the almighty?

1 hour later…

5:46 PM

@AJHenderson I'm not sure whether I wanted to answer this info about where I'm from etc. and so I identified God as a just judge about my condition before Him and others.

:14972778

I'm surprised sometimes. And I tend to feel sinner

myself

And I know that God sees me righteous because of Jesus and his work, but still I'm feeling man undone. that's basically my answer to your guestion.

@laovultai ok, that makes sense

I was just confused a bit because there are some sects that feel that Christ's death allows for forgiveness but doesn't guarantee it and end up with this weird combination of faith and works.

personally I disagree with such sects, but was trying to figure out if you came from one of them

the phrasing "plead my case before the almighty" just confused me

@AJHenderson interesting. I think you mean like LDS?

they aren't the only ones

@AJHenderson well actually this phrase is in ps.4(MSG), if you are interested.

@laovultai yeah, I'm familiar with the phrase in the context of pleading with God for help and such. I just wasn't clear on the context from how you used it, that's why I asked for clarification

6:18 PM

@laovultai Perhaps an unconfessed sin.

Satan deceives us sometimes. We do not turn to God immediately. We do "penitence" for a while. We punish ourselves a little. Perhaps we read the Bible. We wait a while.

Satan is deceiving you! You should immediately go to God!

You can always go to God!

@PaulVargas I guess so.

> But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9 NET)

4 hours later…

10:07 PM

OK. Friends, I have to go. I hope to connect later.

2 hours later…

11:54 PM

I confess that some of my questions are based on misunderstandings and false assumptions.

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Apr '1415

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