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NautArch
NautArch
1:00 PM
should I just delete my answer? It is no longer relevant to the question, or do I need to go in and provide allowed wall configurations for each wall spell? Or is the question too broad now?
 
Adam
Adam
If it were me, I would delete if it didn't answer the question and required any significant amount of work to fix. You can always work on it some more and undelete it
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam that's what i'm thinking and I don't have the time today to update it. Annoying when someone changes their question so drastically.
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@NautArch Actually, general SE policy would dictate that an edit that invalidates an existing answer should be rolled back
I don't know whether you handle that differently here at rpg.SE
 
DForck42
DForck42
mornin
 
Adam
Adam
Morning
 
NautArch
NautArch
1:10 PM
mornin'
@ACuriousMind you mean the question needs to be rolled back? I'm not mod enough to know that :D @Miniman?
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@NautArch Yes, that's what I mean - after an answer has been given, the question should not be changed in a way that makes it "not an answer" - the answerer has put effort into it and invalidating the answer is simply rude and might deter people from answering fresh questions.
 
DForck42
DForck42
@ACuriousMind yup
 
NautArch
NautArch
@ACuriousMind ah...well, I don't have permission to do that. :D
 
Miniman
Miniman
9
Q: Massive edit to a question undercuts existing highly-upvoted answer

KRyan Simulate/Emulate 4th Edition Invoker in 5th Edition Per advice from doppelgreener, the OP has massively changed this question – do the question they meant to ask, no doubt, but existing meta opinion suggests that the OP should have asked a new question, since the change was significant and u...

discussion editing
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@NautArch You do have more than 2k, right? All you need is the edit privilege, iirc
 
NautArch
NautArch
1:16 PM
@ACuriousMind I went into "edit", but I don't see rollback info. Just the ability to edit.
 
Miniman
Miniman
That meta is very much bogged down in the specifics of that case, not the general policy, though.
@NautArch Rollback is in edit history.
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@NautArch Oh, the rollback button is in the revision history, not the edit interface
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Miniman how does one access revision history? Or do I not have access?
 
Adam
Adam
Not sure I agree. It seems weird to me that we would freeze a question just because somebody put an answer on it.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam and I wouldn't call my Single Vote "highly upvoted"
 
diego
diego
1:19 PM
@NautArch click on the link that says 'edited 14 hours ago'
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@Adam Hm, it's not forbidden to edit it. Just changes so large that they invalidate existing answers should not be made - that's not editing, that's asking a different question (I have not looked at the case in question, I'm just talking generalities here)
 
Adam
Adam
Or the question was worded poorly and the answer shouldn't have been written
In that case, it's a much better solution to just fix the question
at least I think so
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
Ah, yes, if the question should have been closed instead of answered, that's also a situation where major edits are fine.
 
Adam
Adam
Now, this is an interesting case because this question is poorly received and the user removed ~1000 lines of detail
 
NautArch
NautArch
@diego never knew that was a link :P
in this case, I think I might just delete my answer. I didn't love it anyway because I felt it didn't have a strong enough supporting case
 
Adam
Adam
1:23 PM
So in this case, the edit might be too severe. I wouldn't say though "once a question has an answer, it's locked." There's a line between editing a question to clarify the problem, and an edit fundamentally changing the problem. And that should be the decider for whether or not an edit should be rolled back. Not the existence of an answer
 
DForck42
DForck42
reading through it, I'm not sure the deleted details really adds much to the question. it frames it in a WHY they're asking, but I don't know if it really adds to the question to make it clearer what they're asking
I also don't think it invalidates the current answer, unless I'm missing something
 
Adam
Adam
Me thinks that rule was created because an answer being invalidated suggests that the scope of the question has changed, but it isn't the existence of an answer that the rule is trying to address.
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
^that
 
NautArch
NautArch
@DForck42 It seems like he is now asking how each wall spell allows configurations rather than just Wall of Force. I only answered for Wall of Force
and he had specific configurations he was asking validation for, (which i invalidated)
the good news is thta I learned something :) I didn't realize I couldn't make a box with Wall of Force
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Well, it is a wall of force, not 4-walls, a ceiling and a floor of force. :P
 
NautArch
NautArch
1:28 PM
@LegendaryDude except Wall of Stone does allow you to make a 'structure'...or at least that's how i'm reading it
@LegendaryDude and you can still make a sphere/hemisphere
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Yes, and wall of stone doesn't have the same restrictions as wall of force. It also specifically says "if a creature would be surrounded by the wall, they make a dex save" which implies that you can at least make a 4-walled enclosure.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@LegendaryDude so it really should be called "Walls of Stone"?
 
Adam
Adam
It looks to me like Wall of stone lets you create 3 dimensional, though hollow, shapes with it. For wall of force and wall of Ice it either needs to be 2 dimensional, or (hemi)spherical.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Wall of stone seems to be less limited because it is literal stone. Anything you could realistically make with stone, you can make with wall of stone. Note that long bridge spans require you to use some of the material from the spell to create supports.
I know you could apply that logic to ice as well. I'm choosing not to because this is a game and there needs to be differentiation between the different spells :D
 
Adam
Adam
What do they mean by "shape a flat surface"?
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
1:37 PM
Well, e.g. a torus can be flat, but I doubt that's in play here :P
 
NautArch
NautArch
the 10x10 panel must be flat (or, at least that's my assumption)
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Adam It can't be curved or be angular; panels must connected along the same axes
 
Adam
Adam
So you can't make any corners?
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
No
That's my understanding of it
Wall of stone is an exception
 
Adam
Adam
That's what I thought as well, just making sure
 
NautArch
NautArch
1:38 PM
@LegendaryDude that's correct
 
Adam
Adam
Well, that pretty much answers the question right there.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@ACuriousMind Except there's a bit of grey area I see here, where the querent hasn't posed--or possibly even understood--their question very well in the first instance. Then we get a conflict of the two rightly-directed desires: (a) people's efforts answering shouldn't be undercut; (b) we want a database of actionable answers to actual problems.
If I'm first answering or early in the question's life cycle and comments or even the reception of the answer make it clear that OP needs to reformulate the original question, even drastically, the "rightness" of my answer to the originally-posed-but-not-actual question isn't a hill I'm willing to die on. I don't want cruft hanging around.
 
eimyr
eimyr
Folks, I need some help. What could a fantasy character exclaim to indicate disagreement when another person makes a claim that is NOT an insult?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@eimyr Fie!
 
eimyr
eimyr
Harumph.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
1:48 PM
@eimyr Also: what's the opposite of "amen" in Hebrew?
 
Adam
Adam
@nitsua60 I would argue that the most important thing is that the querent's question get's accurately formatted. After all, at worst the answerers just lose a little bit of rep and some time. And if the original question is a related, but different stand alone question, then we can let it organically come up again.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@eimyr Bollocks!
 
eimyr
eimyr
@nitsua60 Fie is good. Thanks. How would you like to be credited for help?
 
Adam
Adam
Now, that doesn't mean you can go back 3 months and reformat all of your old questions. But, especially early in the question's life cycle, edits to get to the real problem should be encouraged.
 
eimyr
eimyr
by nickname or otherwise?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
1:49 PM
@eimyr Pshaw!
 
NautArch
NautArch
so...delete my answer?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@eimyr I represent the sheeple =)
(j/k. I don't need any credit for being first on the scene.)
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch If you don't support your answer anymore, deleting it is the best indicator of that if you can't edit it easily.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@eimyr "No way Jose!"
@eimyr "Pfah!"
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@NautArch I mean, if you rewrite it to be a three-liner that answers the current question, in the way that the half-dozen here have all come to believe is correct, I don't think there's any crime done to the Stack by you "stealing" those 25 rep. OTOH, if you don't feel like rewriting because you've got other things to do, deletion doesn't cost you much. Someone will come along and answer it.
(I know I have a really hard time motivating myself to answer a question a second time.)
 
NautArch
NautArch
1:52 PM
@Adam i'll edit it later today. It doesn't take a lot of time, but we're dealing with new website launch issues right now :D
 
eimyr
eimyr
@nitsua60 drop me a line at games@tentacletheory.com if you don't want to post your credit here :)
 
NautArch
NautArch
althought he amount of time im in here equates to answering...so...yeah i'll get it done earlier
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@eimyr "nitsua60" is fine =)
 
eimyr
eimyr
kk
 
Adam
Adam
So, I'm making a dungeon and I thought it would be a cool little risk if the players had to make a con save everytime they were hit by a monster attack or immediately contract the sight rot disease. Would it be more proper to give them a 24 hour immunity if they cure the disease, or allow them to catch it over and over again? Game is 5e. Party is 2 paladins, 2 druids, and a bard. Everyone is 4th level
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
1:56 PM
I have yet to actually play 5e, but CON save or blindness feels a little harsh and maybe un-fun.
But then again, I don't know if the save will be difficult or not.
And how often they can save to recover from the disease.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Yuuki It's actually not that harsh. CON saves are the most common saves for monsters, and they recover after a long rest IIRC. Also, blindness really only imposes disadvantage.
 
Adam
Adam
@Yuuki It's not immediate blindness. Starts at a -1 on attack rolls and sight based checks. Blindness only sets in once they hit -5 and can be restored with lesser restoration
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Adam Yeah, I was about to suggest a gradual thing.
Maybe reduction in vision range over time and then blindness after vision reduces to 10ft.?
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Blindness from what?
@Adam What is this?
 
Adam
Adam
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
1:59 PM
@LegendaryDude From my understanding, he's doing a cave dungeon crawl and the cave monsters can all induce a "sight rot" on attack.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Oh wow
Completely missed your previous message about sight rot.
@Yuuki Yep. I am oblivious.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Adam So not just long rest, they need a particular reagent and a long rest.
 
Adam
Adam
I'm thinking I might reduce the DC from 15 to 12, but have the effects appear immediately upon infection. @Yuuki Or they could cast lesser restoration or use lay on hands to cure it
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
I'm not sure how to interpret that "three doses cure" thing. Does that mean they spend three doses and a long rest to cure or can you only apply one dose per long rest?
> Applied to the eyes before a long rest, one dose of it prevents the disease from worsening after that rest. After three doses, the ointment cures the disease entirely.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Yuuki It's three rests.
"Applied to the eyes before a long rest, one dose of it prevents the disease from worsening after that rest."
 
Adam
Adam
2:02 PM
One of the druids lives in a glade not too far from the dungeon so assuming they don't magically cure it, they will find enough eyebright there to cure everyone
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@LegendaryDude Yeah, that's what I was leaning towards. Again, I have no experience with 5e, but that seems a bit harsh to CON save on every attack or get that.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Otherwise you could just... make a larger single does (comprised of 3 doses) and be done with it.
@Yuuki CON saves are the easiest saves. Really.
CON is such an important ability score in 5e that no one would ever consider going without a bonus in it and most characters who don't have proficiency in it are best off taking the feat (Resilience) which grants it.
 
Adam
Adam
two of them, the paladins, are immune to disease entirely. It's a feature that isn't used often and so I wanted to give them some satisfaction from that feature. Both druids can prepare spells that can cure disease, and the paladins can cure disease as well.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Hmm... fair enough.
 
Patta
Patta
@LegendaryDude what makes you say that? I mean, yea, most characters probably have +1 or +2 in con at least, but without proficiency that would still be pretty hard...
 
Adam
Adam
2:04 PM
They have so many options to cure it that I'm wondering if allowing them to get it continuously would be too harsh. Especially since it's only a one shot dungeon with only 3 combat encounters planned.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Patta Because, at least in my experience, no one ignores CON in 5e. It's the most common save and the one most likely to royally screw you.
So everyone prepares for that scenario but putting whatever their second or third best ability score is in CON.
 
Tim B
Tim B
This answer really went above and beyond: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/96920/10420
 
Patta
Patta
@LegendaryDude meh. My lv10 cleric does pretty well with just a +4 in con (through a magic item that sets his con to 19)
But maybe it's jsut the way we play that I never really needed con saves before and if I did, they where DC 15+
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@LegendaryDude On the one hand, it's a good point that most people do their best to avoid dumping CON. On the other hand, it verges just a tiny bit close to metagaming for me. It kinda sucks that you'll never see the frail caster type in D&D because dumping CON is a fool's choice.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Patta A +4 in CON is a high CON score, so it makes sense he does pretty well with "just" +4.
 
Adam
Adam
2:07 PM
I suppose if I was a player, I wouldn't like being diseased over and over again, so I'll just give them the immunity. Plus, I'd hate to get a bunch of lucky rolls and make them waste all of their resources on curing diseases instead of fighting
 
Patta
Patta
@LegendaryDude well, for a saving throw I would not call that high. At least not for Level 10
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Yuuki My current wizard has only a +1. It's bad times. As soon as I cap my INT I'm bumping my CON and taking the Resilience feat.
 
Patta
Patta
i'd call it "ok", but not more
What I was getting at is that I disagree with "CON saves are easy"
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Er
No, that can't possibly be right. boggles
 
Tim B
Tim B
if you get hit multiple times the odds start dropping quite fast
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:10 PM
@Patta Let me rephrase with context, then. For martial fighters, CON saves are easy (they would be the only ones in real danger of contracting the disease).
@TimB The odds stay the same. You just have more chances to fail.
 
NautArch
NautArch
edited...that wasn't too bad
although I do feel ike the answer is "read the spell descriptions"
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@TimB give it a bounty?
 
NautArch
NautArch
but then I clearly didn't do that at first by not understanding Wall of Force myself
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch That's usually a result of reading too much into the description and not just taking the words at their simplest, face value meaning. I've learned that in 5e, simplicity is often the best approach to understanding things that sound complicated.
Reading into the meanings of "contiguous" and "flat surface" is what lead to the initial question being asked.
 
Adam
Adam
@LegendaryDude You mean you don't bull-rush your spellcasting players? ;)
 
Tim B
Tim B
2:13 PM
@LegendaryDude But you only need to fail 1. The odds of passing 1,2,5,10 in a row with a 50% fail chance for example are 1 in 2, 1 in 4, 1 in 32, 1 in 1024 ...
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Except if you think about what a contiguous flat surface of 10x10 panels would look like, it's pretty straight-forward.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@LegendaryDude and Crawford's recent ruling that Walls of Force act as total cover and you can't cast a spell into it also limits is usability. Reall only works in an enclosed environment that can create other "walls" and is mostly a "sit here and we'll get to you later" spell. It isn't bad, ut it doesn't seem as good as it did before.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Adam I am a spellcasting player, and I have my ways of preventing that. In the last game I DMed we didn't have any truly squishy PCs. And the warlock had misty escape so good luck hitting him.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@Adam If it's a one-shot, three-encounter dungeon, then I'd be pretty hesitant to introduce this, personally. The fact that half the party is immune seals the deal for me: it doesn't feel like "their time to shine," it feels like "half the party got screwed." Anyway, in a one-shot dungeon with 3 encounters, when are they going to take 3 long rests?
 
Tim B
Tim B
@nitsua60 Seriously considering that :)
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:15 PM
@NautArch I disgree, mostly because walls are basically no-save AoE hold spells. Put down a 100 foot long wall dividing your enemy into two groups, and one half is going to take a while before it can get back into the fight.
 
Adam
Adam
@nitsua60 They wont. They'll either cast lesser restoration from one of the 3 people who can do so, they'll use 5 of the 40 lay on hands they have to cure it, or they'll just suck it up until they're out of the dungeon
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
So you don't expect it to be a thing that actually happens, just a resource-drain?
 
NautArch
NautArch
@LegendaryDude well, if they can't fly it'd be double move rounds for them to get around which would delay their entrance if melee by 2 rounds or so or less if they're ranged or casters. If they can fly, it's one round.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@TimB Yes, your number of chances to contract the disease increase because you have more trials, but each trial still has the same odds.
@NautArch 2 rounds is roughly 2/3rds of a combat, should be enough time to mop up the other half before they make it there.
As for flying, that's not a situation where a wall is going to help and hopefully you have hypnotic pattern prepared.
If you have performed your due diligence as a wizard, you will know if the enemy can fly before you get there. ;)
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Still, the fact that half the party is immune to it puts me off it. It'd be one thing if the party were heading to this dungeon, known to be disease-infested, and they were thinking "good thing we've got paladins." This sounds more like "oh, it turns out I have to be nerfed during every combat, and listen to the pal-pair have fun."
 
NautArch
NautArch
2:18 PM
@LegendaryDude right, that's why it's more of "you wait there, we'll get back to you" spell when I originally saw it as a "shooting fish in barrel" spell
 
Adam
Adam
@nitsua60 I expect the disease to come up once or twice to give the party something that none of the other DMs in our group have ever done: a disease. I expect the paladins to be hit once or twice and I can say "Your divine health actually did something for once" and I expect them to cure it relatively easily and then move on with their life
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch I guess I never had that expectation; I always ruled that wall of force blocks spellcasting.
For line of effect, anyway.
 
Adam
Adam
Which is why I'll just give everyone immunity once it's cured. Which is literally one spell or feature away
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Line of sight-only spells still work.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
I think, personally, the way to make the paladin's disease-immunity shine is to put the party in a situation where there's a choice that's easier to make because of the immunity.
I don't see the choices here.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:21 PM
@nitsua60 Something like, "Go through the disease-ridden filth (it's a shortcut) or take the long way but has more dangers."
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Yeah.
 
Patta
Patta
@LegendaryDude ok, that I agree with.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Or a monster that explicitly imposes disease if you're within 5'. You can choose ranged attacks, or choose to risk disease. Or if you're a paladin, that choice isn't hard.
 
Adam
Adam
I'll keep those options in mind. And I'll certainly give them a way to discover the nature of the place before going in
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
(Of course, this is starting to sound a lot like exactly what you started with. Maybe I've just been misunderstanding it all along... =\ )
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:23 PM
@nitsua60 OOOH, a disease aura. Very nasty.
 
NautArch
NautArch
and my bard definitely has hypnotic pattern :D
with his CLI lyre forcing disadvantage on the save, too
@LegendaryDude I don't think they do (from our discussion of below ice as well), but JC ruled behind the wall of force is total cover. no line of sight.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Next level! We hit level 4 last weekend, will probably be at level 5 next weekend. Sadly, we are off this week. Our bard is going to a party and we're not invited.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@LegendaryDude typical bard
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Yeah, I saw that tweet. It is total cover for attacks. It doesn't block line of sight because you can see through it.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@NautArch okay, I don't generally like the term "broken" because of its vagueness, but that spell's just freaking broken.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:25 PM
That is, it can't be used to hide behind.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@nitsua60 Wall of Force or Hypnotic pattern?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
hypnotic pattern
 
Adam
Adam
@LegendaryDude I wish we leveled up that fast. My group plays with xp, and we haven't leveled up in at least a month
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
So total cover technically isn't the right term, because total cover is specific in that you can use it to hide.
@Adam We're switching to XP once we hit 5.
 
NautArch
NautArch
 
Tim B
Tim B
2:27 PM
if we played with xp my players would level after every session. The things I throw at them to make it even vaguely challenging are ridiculous
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@Adam I'm trying out micro-XP this next adventure I run. (cc:@Shalvenay)
 
NautArch
NautArch
@nitsua60 yeah, it's powerful as hell. But there's a fair amount of creatures immune to charm.
 
Tim B
Tim B
that's pathfinder though. I think you're talking 5E?
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch I don't see how that addresses my point of hiding. I think Crawford's made an error there.
 
NautArch
NautArch
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:27 PM
Total cover lets you hide. If I can see you, you are not hidden.
 
Adam
Adam
@TimB Ah, Indeed. to be honest, I'm only half paying attention at the systems that are flying by :p
 
NautArch
NautArch
@LegendaryDude ah, crawford misrule...gotcha. I thought you didn't see the ruling, not that you didn't agree with it.
but yeah, It seems that as long as nothing is actually travelling through the barrier it should be legitimate.
like able to cast an area effect spell on someone who is past it.
evard's tentacles :D
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Maybe it's my old PF experience sneaking up on me but I feel there is a distinction between a spell attack (which requires line of effect) and a spell that only requires line of sight such as, for example, hold person.
So that's how I would rule it, probably.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@LegendaryDude Makes sense to me.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@LegendaryDude remember that "line of effect" isn't a term in 5. But "clear path to target" is =)
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
2:31 PM
@nitsua60 I know, I know. Clear path to target though, really depends if you're talking about a sight path or an effect path, right? :D
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@TimB higher numbers of lower CR creatures? Encounter XP (and by exxtension, hopefully difficulty) is subject to the number-multiplier, but body-count-XP isn't....
 
NautArch
NautArch
I still think I might rather have Destructive wave
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@LegendaryDude And what about gravitational lensing? (We really need a GR-addendum to the spellbooks.)
 
NautArch
NautArch
Let my wizard get wall of force of we need it
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@nitsua60 I played the "body-count-XP" wrong for the first few sessions we played of 5e. Boy they leveled fast.
@nitsua60 Right?
 
NautArch
NautArch
2:34 PM
Body count xp?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@LegendaryDude give the full XP to each player?
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@nitsua60 Er, maybe we're not talking about the same thing. The XP multiplier for determining how multiple enemies effect CR for determining difficulty.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@NautArch If a skeleton's XP value is 25, then killing 6 nets the party 160 XP. Divided among players, @LegendaryDude =)
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
I was giving out the adjusted XP, not the actual XP value of enemies.
 
Adam
Adam
@nitsua60 What do you think about this? If the party does a little bit of research. They can learn about the disease. At that point, if any of them mention anything about coming up with a way to protect themselves, the druids will know about eyebright, and they can make an ointment with it that will give them immunity to the disease as well.

that way, all they need is the smallest sliver of foresight and they'll be good.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
2:35 PM
@NautArch but when determining difficulty, the 6-skeleton encounter would "count" as 300 XP, because there's a multiplier for number of enemies.
@LegendaryDude Ahh... so in the skellie-example, you gave 300 XP to the party rather than 150?
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@nitsua60 Yes, exactly.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
Which, in all fairness, would make sense. It rewards the characters for the actual challenge they faced.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
That's exactly what I thought
 
NautArch
NautArch
ah, gotcha. yeah, i don't use the multiplier for handing out XP; just for determining difficulty
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
A single paladin facing ten skeletons and surviving should get more XP than if they'd faced ten one-skeleton attackers.
@NautArch Which is "correct," by the books.
 
NautArch
NautArch
2:40 PM
I've also taken the XP more as guidance recently and make final decisions on amount based on the encounter, smart play, and whether or not I eased up on tactics. At higher levels the XP can be pretty ridiculous and it just doesn't feel right.
for that wall spell quesiton, should we edit out the quote block? It seems unnecessary and tangential to the question itself.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch It shouldn't be there. Each spell has its own rules so it doesn't make sense to have a single question about all the walls with a quote from only one wall spell.
 
NautArch
NautArch
is it okay to edit it out or should that be suggested to the poster?
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Also I think really it should be a separate question for each wall but that's water under the bridge at this point.
On second thought -- no. I'm voting to close as too broad. It really needs to be a single question asked about a single spell.
5e doesn't share rules between spells, spell types, or spell schools, so it makes no sense to conflate them in the way the asker has done.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@LegendaryDude grumble grumble...spent that time rewriting my answer...grumblegrumble
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Sorry bud.
 
NautArch
NautArch
2:44 PM
grumblegrumble
Fie!
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Pfah!
 
SPavel
SPavel
Ahoy the chat
 
NautArch
NautArch
@spavel ahoy matey!
 
Adam
Adam
bonan matenon!
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@SPavel yoha!
 
SPavel
SPavel
2:47 PM
What manner of shenanigans are you scallywags up to this time around
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Ahoy the Chort!
@SPavel Working on release management. sadface
 
SPavel
SPavel
ew
Although if you're in the chat, you can't be working that hard
 
NautArch
NautArch
multitasking?
 
SPavel
SPavel
Ew, I got chamomile tea instead of the lemon tea, because both bags are yellow
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@SPavel Shh.
 
SPavel
SPavel
2:56 PM
Day is ruined, I would go home but they are serving free lunch today
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch Yes, switching tabs between Reddit and chat. XD
 
NautArch
NautArch
@SPavel haven't quit yet?
 
SPavel
SPavel
I gave notice; Tuesday is my last day
But if I hadn't, I would be quitting now because of this tea fiasco
 
NautArch
NautArch
3:17 PM
apparently im inside a snowglobe this morning. lousy smarch weather.
 
Tim B
Tim B
@nitsua60 anything really. They're advanced tactical players with optimised characters - so for example a "standard" encounter for a level 4 party of 6 players had 4 CR5, 4 CR3 and 4 CR1 ... that wasn't even a tough fight
 
SPavel
SPavel
6 players = hella action economy
I wouldn't even bother using monsters with less CR than the PCs
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@TimB What were the CR 5s?
 
SPavel
SPavel
Two CR8s might have been a good encounter
 
Tim B
Tim B
@LegendaryDude I don't remember off hand, I thought it was wights but they were the CR3s
they were weaker CR5s
 
diego
diego
3:27 PM
@TimB Wraiths? Those are CR5
 
Tim B
Tim B
nah, I've not run more than 1 wraith at a time at them. They had a wraith, a black skeleton, a bone swarm and a few smaller things like bloody skeletons as an encounter last session
think that had a couple of wights in it sa well
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@TimB You must be running PF?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@TimB (one of) my GM(s) is having the same problem. But throwing 30 CR4 at our L12 party gave us a good scare, and had blow a lot of resources.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
3:43 PM
@nitsua60 In our last session (5 level 3 PCs) we had a combat that lasted 10 rounds; it started out with 4 orcs, then 2 rounds later another 4, then 2 rounds later another 4. And so on, until there were 20 something orcs. We killed about half of them before they broke and fled. It was a lot of fun but it was basically half the adventuring day in one encounter.
 
Tim B
Tim B
Yep, Pathfinder :)
I did a similar thing the other day. Was well over 50 skeletons and zombies of various descriptions - most around CR1 or 2
but they were swarming through an entrance so about 10 per round arriving
it's not a problem as such. I can challenge the players just fine and everyone's having fun
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I'm running the Emerald Spire superdungeon. There's a water floor with a crab swarm. My party apparently only has one AOE source. That was fun. "Ah, no, the swarm is dimunitive crabs, so 0 weapon damage."
 
Tim B
Tim B
but if I was awarding xp as per the guidelines they'd level up every 2 encounters
 
SPavel
SPavel
Guidelines are meant to be broken!
 
Tim B
Tim B
@MadMAxJr Heh, yah. Swarms are fun. Nearly as good as when you repeatedly warn the level 2?3? don't remmeber which party that a bunch of incorporeal are in the area and they still run around with just the one magic weapon
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
3:51 PM
Everybody get behind the non-tank, non-warrior with the exotic melee weapon that only they are proficient with!
 
Tim B
Tim B
they rectified that quickly after a few encounters :D
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@TimB Ah, yes. Well optimized Pathfinder PCs can perform well above their expected CR difficulty level.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Parties who know the rules holes can perform well above their expected CR. -_-
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Even only a medially-optimized party can do very well against "standard" encounters for their level.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@MadMAxJr i'm guessing that's not 5e?
 
SPavel
SPavel
3:53 PM
d20 games don't have rules holes so much as they are rules holes
 
Tim B
Tim B
yeah, it makes it tricky balancing my modules actually. My playtesters are breezing through the encounters but I do wonder how a less experienced party would fair
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
PF, as usual. But I'll be taking a break from it later this year for Tales from the Loop.
My two PF tables are Emerald Spire and Rise of the Runelords. The Runelords group is a little more advanced with experience going back to 3.0
 
NautArch
NautArch
@MadMAxJr Ah. I didn't think 5e had rules for damage immunities to regular weapon damage for swarms :D
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
There's one that digs through every new splatbook, every new feat, every new archetype....
I tend to just follow the hardbacks.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@MadMAxJr Runelords is a lot of fun, if not excruciatingly long.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
3:55 PM
We're about to get to the hillbilly half-ogres.
I love this part.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
It's without a doubt the best part of the AP.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I picked up Crimson Throne assuming we ever finish this.
 
SPavel
SPavel
@MadMAxJr I don't think "reading the books" is an invalid play style
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@MadMAxJr Good luck. We spent 2.5 years on it and only got to the beginning of the 6th book.
 
SPavel
SPavel
@LegendaryDude Still a better pace than George Martin
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
3:56 PM
@SPavel Boom roasted.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@SPavel I keep up with the game, but I don't buy every one of the monthly themed player guide things.
 
SPavel
SPavel
You seem to carry a lot of resentment for people who do, though
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@MadMAxJr Are you running the game?
 
DForck42
DForck42
4:08 PM
boop
so, my Tuesday night game might be getting cancelled cause the DM might be going back to school... :(
 
SPavel
SPavel
Take over as DM
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
The revolution starts with you.
 
DForck42
DForck42
well, I'm thinking of starting a new game, but probably won't be with the same people
I want my fiancée to play, and I'd rather have some other newbie players at the table as well
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
What system?
Wait, "table"... offline then?
 
DForck42
DForck42
5e
yes
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
4:16 PM
@DForck42 :(
 
DForck42
DForck42
@Yuuki lol
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
I've been trying to get into a 5e game after no tabletop for more than year (and all of my experience has been 3.5e and PF).
 
DForck42
DForck42
@ACuriousMind we are ALL Jeff
 
SPavel
SPavel
I am not Jeff; I am Spartacus!
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
The two groups I've found that meet on Saturdays (at the local comics store) are full.
And the one near me that I found on Reddit LFG meets on my raid nights.
So :(
 
DForck42
DForck42
4:18 PM
we'll most likely be playing in our apartment
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@MadMAxJr Do you have your hands on Tales already? I've only gotten through setting and kids, haven't read the sample mysteries yet. But I'd be curious what you think.
 
DForck42
DForck42
the people I've got in mind are: my fiancée, my best friend (who knows how to play but is a good teacher), my oldest niece (if she decides she's interested) and 2 others that I haven't picked yet
 
SPavel
SPavel
Who is DMing?
Or GMing, if you are a non-WotC heretic
 
DForck42
DForck42
@SPavel me
currently dming for the Tuesday game is my friend Josh
 
SPavel
SPavel
DMing for an SO can be dangerous
 
DForck42
DForck42
4:23 PM
@SPavel yup, but I believe in our maturity levels (I'm gonna be 30 soon, she's 28)
 
Tim B
Tim B
:)
having a few experienced players can help ease the new ones into it, so a mix is good
 
DForck42
DForck42
@TimB yup
 
Tim B
Tim B
my thursday session for example had 3 very experienced players and 2 brand new to pathfinder/3.5/etc
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@nitsua60 Got the PDF, 'DARPA' green edition is in the mail.
 
Tim B
Tim B
so the experienced ones were able to walk them through the build and discuss options, recommend feats and arctypes, etc and so on
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
4:28 PM
@LegendaryDude I am, have been running for some time. Got halfway through Runelords, that party had to disband, this is my second tromp through.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@MadMAxJr Ah, okay. I had a lot of fun running the Graul homestead as a sort of The Hills Have Eyes/Texas Chainsaw Massacre tribute. Very creepy, very disturbing.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Resident Evil 7 gave me ideas on how to do it better.
Especially the barn.
 
DForck42
DForck42
@MadMAxJr movie or game?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
I tried to do a rudimentary search on the SE, but couldn't really find anything. Anybody have any advice on RPing mental characteristics (INT, WIS, CHA)?
INT (low or high) might be the easiest of the three, but how would I RP low/high WIS or CHA?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@DForck42 The game. The old house in it is full of cannibal rednecks.
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
4:31 PM
@DForck42 Hm...a Jeff-hivemind? A...jivemind?
 
DForck42
DForck42
@Yuuki Int: don't say or do dumb things, Wis: don't act like a kid, Cha: shrugs
@MadMAxJr neat
@ACuriousMind no, Jeff-mind
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@Yuuki Intelligence is raw book smarts, depth of knowledge on a subject. Wisdom is the application of common sense, raw intuition or instinct. Charisma is a combination physical appearance and social ability.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@Yuuki Unless you're an actor, they're difficult to RP. I play with a bunch of smart people (we probably all do) and we just ignore the low intelligence thing. Our half-orc barbarian is a software developer and his character has an int of like, 7. Still, it'd be difficult for him to not give smart input on our party's actions.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
For example, you could have a smart professor who is detached from the world having a good int score, moderate wisdom score, and a lacking charisma score.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
Charisma is a measure of confidence. It's your overall presence.
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
4:33 PM
@Yuuki I think CHA mostly reflects in how other people react to the character. It can relate to them being eloquent or good-looking, but, in general, it measures more a kind of general influence over other people than a personal attribute, I think
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
A local baron may be smart on the local law, completely narrow sighted or lacking common sense for low wis, but is able to blather any commoner into a smile.
 
THiebert
THiebert
@Yuuki Don't. Roleplay your character, not their stat-block
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
There's a joke at our table about our bard; he's got low intelligence and the charisma to back it up.
 
DForck42
DForck42
@LegendaryDude yeah, and people that rp especially dumb characters can get SUPER irritating to the rest of the party
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
4:35 PM
Generally we try not to let people play anything below a 9.
It's not very interesting.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Given that most dump stats rarely go below 7 or 8, it seems like that post might have some good advice on not exaggerating below-average stats.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
You can have moments of weakness, but to constantly play a weakness is detrimental to party cohesion.
It's also a borderline excuse for jackassery and 'but my character would do this'
 
CTWind
CTWind
@THiebert Yeah. The stats matter when it comes time to make rolls. You're under no obligation to have them affect you otherwise.
 
NautArch
NautArch
I've got an upcoming barbarian to our table with a 3 INT. The player will definitely be roleplaying that :(
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@NautArch That is literally animal intelligence. :|
 
NautArch
NautArch
4:40 PM
yup
3d6 stat block roll, straight down the line
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Hulk smash?
 
NautArch
NautArch
pretty much :)
my wizard is definitely going to mess with him.
of course i rolled an 18 INT, 17 Con and no other stat below 10
 
GreySage
GreySage
What is your opinion of this question: rpg.stackexchange.com/q/96992/23196 ?
I feel like its asking for something it already has the answer to
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
@GreySage My opinion is that it's not a great question. Definitely X/Y problem.
 
NautArch
NautArch
i don't play pathfinder, but i'm assuming the rules are the same in that the DM defines what's available
don't want that item available for us? DOn't make it available for use.
 
LegendaryDude
LegendaryDude
4:46 PM
My answer is, "don't give the PCs any loot." And it's so obvious I don't know why it's a question. Which means the question isn't actually concerned with the solution, but some other problem which lead to asking about the proposed solution instead of the problem.
Probably, the problem is "how can I make the 'Medicine' skill more useful?"
Based on the linked question
 
DForck42
DForck42
@NautArch I would say that if the dm want's SPECIFIC items unavailable, they should make that known up front
 
NautArch
NautArch
@DForck42 or that items in shops are randomly determined on a chart
and that item isn't on the chart :)
 
DForck42
DForck42
@NautArch yes
 
NautArch
NautArch
but same result and hav a game reason for it
why isn't healing available? maybe the clerics have total control of healing and keep an eye out for black market healing and come down hard on it
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
"Hey, you wanna buy some lifesticks?"
 
Adam
Adam
4:55 PM
"how could it happen in a real game that a level 6 group can't buy...? " - literally a thousand ways, both mechanical and through the narrative.
 
DForck42
DForck42
@Adam yup
 
GreySage
GreySage
I am also confused by what he thinks a 'real' game is.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@GreySage or what a fake game may be
 
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