TRPG General Chat

9:00 AM

I just know 4 on the second for sure because it just ended.

Was the one with 8 players I was having problems.

Why do you ask?

You seem to be struggling to figure out how to introduce rules to solve problems that may not need extra rules, just creative application of the stuff that already exists.

Althis

I would love some advice then.

What would you suggest?

Lets make this interesting.

I need a setting and game mechanics to support 4 teams of a ritualist + spirit in an urban fantasy setting.

GO!

doppelgreener

In part that is tricky, because I'm having trouble understanding your situation. You've got this sorcerer game you want to port over, when generally anything magical is something the players can figure out on their own. You've also got this spirit thing going on, and I'm not sure to what extent that is a goal in and of itself, or just a solution to some other situation.

Taking it as is though: have you tried just asking people who wants to be a ritualist, who wants to be a spirit, how they want to pair up, then to just make characters representing what the spirit and ritualist do?

You already have mechanics to use for this, and I'm not clear why you feel you need to define new ones.

Althis

I pitched the idea to the players on the last session we had playing Fate with 8 people.

doppelgreener

And to make it clear, I'm declining that challenge.

Althis

9:08 AM

That makes you boring, sir.

Even if you have a great mustache.

doppelgreener

... I don't really care?

Althis

They seemed to like it a lot.

So I now just want to make it work.

Last week we tried to do it with Shadowrun.

But it didn't go so well.

doppelgreener

That's good then. So, get them to make characters and see how their creativity comes out. Come up with extra mechanics if and when you find holes in what's available.

Althis

Meh... I've never been good with this impromptu stuff.

It's just really hard to find out what is a good or bad idea in a moment's notice.

doppelgreener

Well, impromptu stuff is kinda the MO of fate.

Althis

9:10 AM

Impromptu story you can deal with.

Impromptu mechanics can ruin the enjoyment real fast.

And honestly, the problem starts when it doesn't ruin the enjoyment real fast, and instead starts to slowly sip it away.

doppelgreener

The basic way to mechanics things in fate is to work out what you narratively want, and pick from the mechanics that already exist to model that. There's a pretty diverse and powerful set of them already.

Althis

Have you played Shadowrun 5?

doppelgreener

I have not.

Althis

I wish I had.

Only got the 4th edition, though.

user61230

@Althis Impromptu mechanics take a lot of skill and practice to do right, and can definitely screw things up if done wrong. It's a good idea to figure out exactly what you want the mechanics to do before game, so that your mechanics-picking is informed.

Althis

9:14 AM

Good to see I am not alone in that opinion.

user61230

Impromptu mechanics-picking is important, though. It's not avoidable in a system like Fate (and typically isn't avoidable in other systems, too).

doppelgreener

Yeah, working out which mechanic to use when is something I'm still learning about.

user61230

Mitigating the chance of picking the wrong mechanic mostly comes down to some thought before the game begins. (I'm totally unaware of the context of the conversation, so I hope this is helpful/relevant?)

Althis

Well, you validated my claims, so I would say, yes.

Anyway, to get you up to speed here is a little recap:

Was playing Fate with 8 people and it got out of hand.
We decided that it would be great to play a game where half of our group would be summoners and the other half would be the spirits summoned, enabling their magical powers and whispering deviously in their ears to fulfill their own agenda.
Tried to make that work with Shadowrun and failed.
Posted a thread here a couple of days ago and a good suggestion gave to me was to look at Sorcery that kinda enabled that style of play.
Sorcery's playstyle is kinda unorthodox and to save the trouble of learning a new system I am trying to adapt fate…

That that is mostly it.

user61230

...makes sense!

Althis

9:19 AM

Its HARD!

user61230

It's probably been mentioned before, but you've decided to do an unbelievably difficult thing.

user61230

That doesn't mean it can't work, of course.

Althis

doppelmustachio is trying to convince me to just find ways in Fate itself to deal with what I want.

doppelgreener

We haven't mentioned that yet, since that is the first clear account of what's going on that I've read.

Althis

The wonders of editing, amirait?

user61230

9:21 AM

It might help to remove the system completely for a while. (Conceptually, at least.)

doppelgreener

This sounds cool though.

user61230

Yeah, it sounds like it'd be really cool!

Althis

And hard.

Hey, may I say that I really really like the way people's profile descends from heaven when they join the chat?

user61230

Yes, that. So, more to the point: remove the system from the thought process.

user61230

If it were a game without a system, how would you want it to play and work?

Althis

9:23 AM

You mean try to start something from zero that fits what is needed, correct?

user61230

Not necessarily from zero. Freeform is a type of roleplaying, and at its core, it's always seemed to me that Fate is just freeform with optional mechanics.

Althis

The storyline itself isn't complete, because I was going to try and do fate and fate wants you to cooperatively create the story. But the idea is as follows.

Some players are summoners, some are spirits. Summoners summon a spirit to give them magic powers to accomplish certain tasks. Associated with this summoning is a contract, that has clauses for conclusion.

Now both the mage AND the spirit have their own objective that are different.

The mage's objective is all the same, that will most likely be to solve some mystery or throw down some crime lord if I know my group well.

The spirit's objetive is random, and secret for each of them.

The kinds of spell the mages use must come from a limited pool.

Defined by what kind of spirit they summoned.

Hence why I was working with Sorcery's skills.

And, now I lost my train of though.

dammit.

user61230

S'okay. Don't worry too much about how, ritualistically, they're summoning the spirits; what's the contract between spirit and summoner like?

Althis

The spirit must give them the powers they need, but it isn't exactly clear HOW.

That is how the player and the spirit can oppose each other.

The magic has to be done, the HOW it is done is how it can benefit one of the other.

It might be in the spirit's interest to help the player.

Or maybe their objective is to do just the contrary.

How this meddling works I still haven't figured out yet.

user61230

It might be a good idea to leave it as vague as that.

Althis

9:30 AM

One of my players suggested that only the spirits throw dice.

Which I found a terrible idea.

user61230

The spirits are bound to magically assist the summoners in completing a specific goal. You can let each spirit and summoner figure out how that happens.

user61230

Yeah, that seems a little... yeah.

Althis

You think that would work?

From the minds that brought you:"Only spirit throw dice!"

user61230

Sure. It has two advantages: first, it doesn't impose a restriction that will run into a conflict later. Second, it allows each pair of players to play the way they feel creates the best story for them.

user61230

I'm not even looking at mechanics at this point, just the rigidity with which things are defined.

Althis

9:32 AM

You sir, are a genius.

Let them work for it!

user61230

ehhhh :P

user61230

Yeah. You can trust your players to play the way they want to enjoy the game.

Althis

At least, when they crash and burn it won't be MY fault!

I love it!

user61230

Well, I mean, the GM helps strongly guide away from crash and burn.

Althis

Which is why we must have at least a few sets of reasonable ways this interaction can work.

And suggest those to them.

user61230

9:33 AM

Mhm!

user61230

The way you might represent this in Fate is with two aspects, and I think that might be all you need.

Althis

Middle term between crashing and burning and controlling then with a very very long pole not to crash and burn.

user61230

The spirit has an aspect indicating both that they're bound and how they feel about it; the summoner has the same thing. These can be compelled and invoked by anyone - but primarily by each other.

Althis

It is a little to vague for my tastes.

But it might work.

user61230

Hmm... how so?

Althis

9:37 AM

One of the problems I was having previously, besides the problem with the number of player, was the dominant player problem, where the more engaged players were just telling the less experienced what to do.

Probably because there were so many.

If we leave the role of the spirit and the player well defined we can kinda take care of that.

Because a spirit player can't just order the player around without going over this boundary.

And the other way around.

user61230

That's... more of an interpersonal issue than it is a mechanical issue.

Althis

So it is engaging for everyone.

user61230

Let's take a step back again from mechanics. If you were playing without a system, how would you mitigate this issue?

Althis

Well, I would create mechanics that solved this problem... :P

After all, aren't the mechanics supposed to help balancing the game?

Making sure it is impartial.

user61230

The game, yes; the players, no.

user61230

9:40 AM

Mechanics won't help you deal with interpersonal difficulties, even though they might help a little depending on what they are.

user61230

Relying on them won't work, though; mechanics can supplement an existing solution, but they can't act as one.

Althis

They don't intend to spoil the fun for anyone. They just do it instinctively I guess.

Even when I reprimand them it just happens again.

I guess it comes from having such a big group.

user61230

I mean, it's just a difference in the way people play the game.

Althis

You wait a lot in combat.

user61230

There's a good book on this topic, called Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering.

Althis

9:42 AM

Never read it.

user61230

I'd highly recommend it. With respect to this issue, effectively, there are certain playstyles that don't work well together, and the more players you have, the more likely you are to have one of those conflicts.

user61230

It's not that those people are playing incorrectly, they're just playing differently.

Althis

Some see the game as a puzzle to be solved, while some see it as a narrative to be experienced?

I think i've noticed that before.

user61230

Mhm. Robin separates it into six categories, which is a little limiting, but is enough to get the point across.

Althis

Anyway, what does Dr Laws suggests?

user61230

9:44 AM

Well... this is kinda unusual, and there isn't specific advice.

Althis

...

user61230

What I'd suggest, though, is pairing people together based on their playstyles.

Althis

Yeah, conflicts would be hilarious then.

user61230

You're effectively linking two people together as one player, since being a spirit bound to a summoner is a very strong connection that can't really be easily broken.

user61230

If you pair people with similar playstyles, they'll enjoy the game in similar ways.

Althis

9:46 AM

Sounds like a good idea.

I will have to talk to them about it, see if they want to try pairing with other people.

Some of them are couples, you see?

user61230

That makes sense. It's never quite straightforward.

Althis

It will be an interesting exercise at very least.

Still, I feel kinda naked without mechanics to support me.

user61230

Hmm, that's fair. What do you think would be better served with mechanical support?

Althis

Letting people decide as they will doesn't sound like a good idea.

The areas in which each character should be able to influence is one.

For example, it doesn't make sense that a spirit would be able to command what the mage does in the physical world.

As well as the mage shouldn't be able to tell the spirit how to cast a spell.

But each one should have means to influence the rolls for either.

Subtly but still there.

user61230

That's what Fate points would do.

The Oracle

9:49 AM

0

Q: How to ask a question regarding canonical events that generate negative player reactions?

I have been reading on the Harpers (a faction in the Forgotten Realms setting of Dungeons and Dragons) a bit, and I have seen quite some comments online of people not liking them a lot because of the things they have been doing.. I want to ask a question about this, but I do not want to phrase it...

Althis

OHMYGOD YOU HAVE A BOT!

How did I not see this fella before?

user61230

Oracle only posts questions that get asked on Meta, which don't come very often.

Althis

But fate points must be used combined with a skill.

That would be very hard to make in this case.

Or aspect, which I don't feel could be broad enough.

user61230

Not necessarily. There are a couple mechanics already at your disposal: players can spend FP to declare story details, and they can feed them into stunts.

Althis

Stunts I also feel wouldn't be broad enough.

Lets try to imagine a game example.

user61230

9:52 AM

You might give spirits a stunt that reads something like "Once per scene, I can spend a Fate point to subtly modify the outcome of my summoner's actions."

Althis

Stunts can do that?

Nice.

user61230

Mhm! As long as it's reasonably balanced.

Althis

Yeah.

That was what I was thinking now.

There must be something related to the spirit's aspect as well.

user61230

How so?

Althis

I mean, it doesn't make much sense for a demon to influence actions related to holyness, right?

Or to a spirit of intelect to have a positive influence on actions regarding physical work.

user61230

9:55 AM

Depends how they describe it.

user61230

"I subtly guide your hands to the exact correct position on the box to exert the most torque."

user61230

"I struggle against your blessing, attempting to break it, adding strain to your prayer and conflict to your thoughts."

user61230

Then you can look at how something like this changes the rolls.

user61230

In the first case, it might drop the difficulty. In the second case, it might cause them to struggle, or have to roll to keep their thoughts in check, or take mental stress, depending on what makes the most sense contextually.

Althis

On the first example. It is assumed that Fate characters are already exceptional individuals, wouldn't the assistance of a spirit of knowledge do something like moving a heavy crate in this instance be at least negligible?

Wouldn't they already know where to put their hands?

user61230

9:58 AM

/shrug. It's situational.

user61230

Not necessarily. Fate characters are proactive, not necessarily intelligent.

Althis

So in that instance I would have to deny the use of the stunt.

user61230

GM-veto rarely. Are the players okay with it?

Althis

Usually when I do it there is a good reason to.

user61230

I would be cautious about using it for things that are not as realistic.

Althis

9:59 AM

So they are usually ok with it if they cannot rephrase their action in any other way that makes more sense.

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