Ruse

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Discussion between Matthieu and Ruse

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Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 23:09

Components are not part of the effect in my interpretation, because it's based largely on this quote:
> Each spell description in chapter 11 begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, **components**, and duration. **The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect.**
So if I'm storing disintegrate in a glyph, I need to be able to provide VSM at that time. When then glyph is triggered, the effects happen and among them the effect of "A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a target that you can see within r…

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:40

But taking a step back these problems only matter because of stuff like glyph of warding. Can you point your finger at the target? No because there is no target yet as you put disintegrate into the glyph. Does anything point its finger at the glyph's triggerer? Obviously not, so that part of the spell seemingly vanishes. Even for the simplests cases glyph of warding requires some fudging one way or the other

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:30

But at this point it's just a disagreement about the how to fundamentally read spells, and that's fine,there isn't enough clarify in the rules to definitely say that my reading is right, or that yours is wrong.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:23

The dex save as disintegrate is an effect of the spell. The damage is an effect of the save. Theyare all an effect of the spell alongside pointing the finger.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:19

But it's not part of the failed saving throw's effect

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:19

Effect itself is also not well defined. I think that pointing the finger is part of the effect of the spell.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:18

I think that you are drawing a like where there isn't one. Where is this casting process defined? Where does it start and end? What I know is that the component are found in one part of the spell's block and the effects are in another and that's what I'm basing my answer on.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:02

Glyph of warding introduces the exception that the effect happens later, separate from the first casting.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:01

@Matthieu effects happening as part of the casting is the normal behavior of spells. The rules don't go into this much detail, so I got nothing to quote, but spells go out of their way to explain when part of their effects happen at a different time or as part of a different action, those are exceptions. So 'You cast that spell--called the contingent spell--as part of casting contingency' is an exception for the contingent spell: its casting happens doesn't involve additional actions. But it's not an exption for contingency: its effect happens as part of its casting, as normal.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:01

@Matthieu regarding your second point, glyph of warding doesn't state the the glyph casts the spell, just that 'the stored spell is cast'.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2023 11:01

@Matthieu I clarified why casting the contingent spell etc. is an effect.

Discussion on answer by Thomas Markov…

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Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:37

That's all just to say that the OP thief you imagined really did exist at least once, it just won't be allowed to exist in any reasonable campaign.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:26

There was tons of good flavor tacked on too: he was called Linku; the Scimitar of Speed was obiously a Master Sword; he also had a belt of giant strength reflavored as the golden gauntlets; the familiar and greater steed were the fairy and the train from LoZ Spirit Tracks; the rest of the scrolls generally covered for the variety of other blessings, magic, and equipment that Links find in their games.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:26

That Thief armed with Scimitar of Speed and scrolls was by far the most OP character I have ever witnessed in D&D 5e, even by the loose standards of that west marches campaign.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:25

until one of my friend got a Scimitar of Speed (great item for Arcane Tricksters too btw), and then boom! everything fell into place because now the Thief could cast a spell scroll with their Action and sneak attack as a bonus action in the same turn. The ultimate gish in 5e.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:25

The real limiting factor was the action economy, even in such favorable conditions the Thief couldn't cast a strong spell scroll with their Action and also sneak attack on the same turn, so for a while the UMD Thief remained a theoretical meme between our friends...

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:25

Compared to a full spellcaster the Thief had more spell versatility on top of all the Rogue options, but couldn't afford to cast as many spells (especially high level ones). This would have been very strong, but not OP compared to all the other stuff going on in that campaign: good magic items were aplenty, normal spellcasters could also use the abundance of spell scrolls, etc.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:24

With the ammount of gold being thrown around in that campaign, a Thief could have far more versatility than an Arcane Trickster, could more or less match the number of spells cast, and could occassionally splurge gold on a higher level spell that an Arcane Trickster could only dream of.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:24

sneak attacking with the Action and then casting a spell scroll with the bonus action; casting green-flame/booming blade to sneak attack insted of using the Attack Action; casting an AoE spell scroll with an action if it was better than sneak attacking.

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:24

Optimal UMD plays included: abusing your "spell list" with long term concentrationless buffs (death ward, find familiar, find major steed, etc.); abusing your "spell list" for unmatched out-of-combat versatility; using a good concentration buff every combat;

Ruse

Nov 22, 2021 22:23

@PentaKon The answers explaining why UMD won't be OP hold in the context of normal campaign, but I have the anecdote a Thief being OP in a west marches campaign. The homebrew downtime system we had made it easy to create spell scrolls at half price so with UMD the Thief's "spell list" approximated every spell known by every PC spellcaster in the campaign.

Discussion on question by NathanS: Ho…

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Ruse

Jan 3, 2020 11:30

The second to last point (the one you just added) heavily implies there is only one enemy. Just point it out in case you don't intend that to be a restriction. And yes, seems answerable now.

Ruse

Jan 3, 2020 11:30

"assume the race to be Wood Elf for that +2 DEX and +1 WIS (or a similar race well suited to this role" does that mean only Wood Elfs, any race with the same ASI, or any race suited to maximizing damage?

Ruse

Jan 3, 2020 11:30

I feel like it is answerable. However, the question needs to be about a specific level, not a range or levels, and it needs to specify which sources we can pull from: whether we need to consider the Ranger's various UA incarnations may be the deal-breaker in terms of broadness.

Discussion on answer by Ryan C. Thomp…

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Ruse

Dec 12, 2019 09:50

@Rosco.p.coltrane "Nothing can physically pass through the wall." is the actual quote of the spell. Physical ≠ physically. Also, it is a wall made of force, 5e's shorthand for raw magic, so it's not particularly silly that this wall stops other magic from crossing it. The fact that the wall is invisible does not detract from the fact that it is an obstacle.

Discussion on question by Erik: Simul…

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Ruse

Dec 9, 2019 23:28

@Erik If your children can't do negative numbers then maybe having a -1 on the dice is not the best choice xD

Ruse

Dec 9, 2019 23:28

@Novak the margin of victory matters. For example, whether your -1 roll counts as a 0 matters when you compare it with the opponent's roll of 2. In one case the margin is 3 and in the other it is 2.

Discussion on question by kent: Can y…

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Ruse

Nov 26, 2019 20:28

Of course you missed something, because you did not litterally list every single feature that both classes get. Your implicit question is to find all the features that are worth comparing, which is: unclear, because unspecified options like race, feats, and oaths can synergize significantly; primarily opinion based, because different people value different features differently. Moreover, I don't think it is even a useful question to answer because a level 20 character to purse is not a good metric to choose the character you'll play at a lower level.

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Ruse

Mar 17, 2019 13:15

@HeyICanChan any input?

Ruse

Mar 17, 2019 13:10

well, I'm not to concerned about the amount of keywords to search for. If the "squirrel" search is computationally reasonable, then so will be a "chipmonk" search. I guess I'm mostly posting here for input on #4.

Ruse

Mar 17, 2019 13:03

but I think most squirrel-adjacent creatures would have the word "squirrel" somewere in their description

Ruse

Mar 17, 2019 12:59

1) I'm not sure how secure the source of pdfs that I have found is.
2) I'm not sure I want to have all those 3.5 books, even if only temporarily, on my PC when I own none of it.
3) I'm not sure how computationally intensive the download and word search would be: maybe my PC & network can handle it easily, maybe it doesn't stand a chance.
4) I'm not sure any question should require these kinds of considerations to answer

Ruse

Mar 17, 2019 12:52

I think I could potentially answer it with an "exhaustive" list of 3.5 squirrels. But it would involve acquiring pdfs for every 3.5 book, performing a word search for "squirrel" across all said pdfs and combing through the results to see find any monster that has the word "squirrel" in its description. All the steps are possible as far as I can tell, but I'm hesitant for several reasons

Ruse

Mar 17, 2019 12:46

I'm contemplating how far I could/should go to answer this question, should it be reopened: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/143289/…

Ruse

Mar 14, 2019 23:26

Perhaps the mods could place a flag as a test to see what happens

Ruse

Mar 14, 2019 23:17

That looks like a real mess

Ruse

Mar 14, 2019 23:09

Hello

Ruse

Oct 3, 2018 03:07

@DavidCoffron Even though I really do think the question is too broad, I still wish I could answer it xD

Ruse

Sep 12, 2018 05:17

I recall there being a question about whether critical role content was homebrew or if the 3pp status madebit not homebrew

Ruse

Sep 11, 2018 17:56

@Rubiksmoose cool I like it!

Discussion on answer by T.J.L.: Can I…

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Ruse

Feb 6, 2019 00:35

McFighterson has taken an Attack action and he's made an attack with a weapon that he's holding in one hand. Can you elaborate further why doesn't that qualify for the bonus action? Your argument isn't clear to me.

Discussion on question by Fie: Is thi…

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Ruse

Jan 4, 2019 17:19

As far as I can tell from your comments, the intent of your rule is: Melee weapon attacks againt a humanoind are made at advantage if that humanoid is neither wielding a weapon, benefitting from alternative AC calculations (such as armor, natural armor, or unarmored defense), nor benefitting from AC bonuses (such as shields or Bracers of Defense). If this is the rule you want us to evaluate, then please edit your question.

Discussion on question by Blue Shocke…

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Ruse

Sep 15, 2018 00:22

Almost everthing falls under "it states its damage" rules, I do not see how spells are different in that regard. Moreover, if cantrip beam progression is applicable, are features like extra attack applicable too? And I think you are underestimating how case-by-case the class features are, for instance bardic inspiration is damage dice progression for at least one bardic college. Well, either way, I might give it a shot tommorrow.

Ruse

Sep 15, 2018 00:22

A comprehensive list of all damage dice progressions strikes me as too broad. For instance, every other class and subclass has some kind of unique dice progression. Many if not most spell have dice progression too, are you expecting a list of all such spells?

Discussion on question by Gael L: Wha…

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Ruse

Sep 14, 2018 20:59

targeting is just not well defined, it could be it's own step between casting a spell and the spell taking effect

Ruse

Sep 14, 2018 20:58

which is not to say that targeting is part of casting either

Ruse

Sep 14, 2018 20:57

Because wish never talks about casting the duplicated spell, I wanted to argue solely from "the spell takes effect" to match wish's wording. I thought I would arrive to the same conclusions, because I thought targeting was part of the spell effect and hence would be duplicated.
But I couldn't find any evidence that targeting is part of the spell effect. Instead I realized that there could be no effect without a target and ended up with targeting as a prerequisite for the spell taking effect.

Ruse

Sep 14, 2018 20:43

@Rubikmoose yes, and that is exactly what I mean by "it is unclear" even that answer only sees suggestions for whether targeting is part of casting. And I could not find anything whatsoever to determine whether targeting is part of the spell effect.

Ruse

Sep 14, 2018 20:34

@Speedkat I find the differences between our answers to be interesting, in part because I used your answer as a template for my own.
The base assumption is slightly different "requirements prevent casting spells" vs "requirements prevent spells from taking effect".
The only practical difference for the outcome of those assumptions is targeting/range, and that practical difference only manifests because it is unclear whether targeting/range is part of the effect of a spell, the casting of a spell, or some other middle ground.

Ruse

Sep 14, 2018 16:13

@NautArch I see, good point, I'll undo my close vote