English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

12:01 AM

OK, you're Spartacus. And I'm Gunga Din. What of it?

KitFox

Well, I need some sleep.

WendiKidd

12:17 AM

@KitFox You want?

1

Q: If orthography, as John Lawler says, is not part of language, how can the commas interefere with the today's discussion about gun control

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I read an interesting article on The New York Times regarding the punctuation used in the amendment above, which today interfere with gun rights a...

punctuation

tchrist

@WendiKidd Ick.

Mitch

ha ha...I just suggested (like someone else there) that Carlo try it at ELU.

tchrist

I don’t know how a firearm-safety discussion in the context of the sacrosanct American Constitution can possibly be anything but counter-constructive.

Mitch

But...but... Commas!

tchrist

Billshoot. It will provoke discussion and argument.

It can have no answer.

If a hundred billion rabid barbarian politicians cannot come up with an answer, neither can we.

Nor should we try.

Cerberus

12:23 AM

@WendiKidd Oh, no! Not only Lawler, but also the American constitution on guns, in one question!

This is too much.

tchrist

I had only 5 hours sleep last night, and I was awoken from my blissful nap just after dropping off, so it is possible that I am just generally hostile right now.

Mitch

I kinda like the title question though. It is also tendentious and... um... problematic.

Cerberus

@tchrist Agreed.

@tchrist That's cool, I like it.

Mitch

4

Q: Difference between "Warm regards" and "Best regards"

Is there any difference between Warm regards and Best regards?

differences

The important point I'd like to make is...

...holy crap, that has 49,000 views!!!!

and only 4 people bothered to upvote it. OOps... really 7 up and 3 down, but really only 10 people bothered to vote.

tchrist

Also, people need to understand that when Carlo says orthography, he does not mean the sequence of letters in a word.

He means the entire compass of how we write something down, which specifically includes punctuation.

Mitch

12:26 AM

graphology?

tchrist

No, Carlo is indeed using the right word.

Mitch

spelling?

tchrist

It’s just that most people think orthography=spelling and that’s all, and this is not correct.

Orthography is how to write correctly.

Mitch

Yeah, weird. sometimes he has a very good grasp of educated English. Other times, not.

tchrist

Which is not just about spelling.

He’s just calquing from Italian.

Mitch

12:27 AM

but it's not language, right?

tchrist

That’s what it means there.

Cerberus

@tchrist I think this is correct.

Mitch

So he's using the right word in English, but for the wrong reason?

tchrist

No.

Cerberus

Orthography isn't just a fancy synonym of spelling.

Even though many people appear to use it that way.

tchrist

12:28 AM

He’s using it for the right reason, but most people are too ill-educated to understand it.

Cerberus

Agreed.

Mitch

also, where is the link to John Lawler's statement?

tchrist

When Lawler talks about language, he is referring to the thing we speak.

There is no spelling or punctuation, nor uppercase or lowercase, in speech.

Mitch

Of course, and for once John Lawler is unequivocally correct. But how to convince those who think orthography -is- language?

depends on what 'is' is.

tchrist

Without writing, language still exists. Without language, writing disappears.

Cerberus

12:38 AM

@tchrist Then he should clarify that, or say "spoken language" once he realises other people consider writing to be part of language.

@tchrist Why would that be true, and why would it matter?

There are languages that only exist in writing.

Call them artificial—of course they are artificial—, but they are languages.

Written Latin did not disappear when people stopped speaking it either.

tchrist

@Cerberus You know he never adapts his speech to others’ notions of what things mean. He always uses his own senses for the words he uses, despite what anyone else means by those things, and he does not signal when he is deviating from others’ expectations of what those words mean.

Cerberus

Exactly.

tchrist

He speaks his own language.

Not others’.

Cerberus

And he is unable to see that other people who use different definitions are not "factually incorrect", but just different.

tchrist

There can be language without writing, as the oral tradition proves. There can be no written (complex) communication without language.

Cerberus

12:41 AM

He is also unable to see how limited the number of people is that would use those terms the same way he does.

@tchrist The latter sentence doesn't really make sense.

tchrist

I don’t know what he would call the conventions of written English.

The conventions of writing can change without the language itself changing one whit.

Cerberus

He doesn't care: he just hates written English and its conventions, I think. Some linguists are indoctrinated to hate convention.

tchrist

Witness the Great Tradition of overcapitalization.

Cerberus

Even though they practice those conventions themselves.

tchrist

Perhaps they consider teaching punctuational punctiliousness to be beneath them.

Cerberus

12:44 AM

No doubt.

tchrist

Maybe it’s hard to do descriptive linguistics on matters of punctuation.

As opposed to, say, a writing style guide.

Which is something else altogether.

Cerberus

@tchrist I don't think so.

But many linguists are indoctrinated to treat language exclusively as a means of communication used without conscious thought.

tchrist

I wouldn’t call tracing the history of the question mark a linguistic matter.

Cerberus

Which is unfortunate, because it is so much more.

@tchrist Why not?

It is true that it would overlap with other fields.

tchrist

It’s not syntax, it’s not morphology, it’s not phonology.

Cerberus

12:50 AM

Like palaeography and the study of specific languages.

tchrist

It’s not even etymology, although that perhaps is closer.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah, and some linguists seems to be fixed on those categories, which are only about a limited part of language.

tchrist

How come all our words for these things are Greek? :)

Cerberus

Those who think like Lawler are often fixed on syntactic patterns.

@tchrist All words on -logy ought to be Greek!

tchrist

Or syn-.

Cerberus

12:52 AM

Yes.

We have many hybrids, but the best words are solilinguistic.

tchrist

Pragmatics.

Semantics.

Cerberus

All sciences ought to have Greek names.

At least those consisting of a single word.

tchrist

Food science.

Christian Science.

Glottometrics.

Lexicography.

Cerberus

Don't you think the first sound rather...unscientific?

What's wrong with, e.g., sitology?

Or aesthiology? Edology? Phagology?

@tchrist Tongue measurements? Why not.

tchrist

1:12 AM

@Cerberus That was why I used them.

For the most part, things called “X Science” are just the study of X, not science.

But then we have counterexamples like “cosmetology”.

Mahnax

Evening.

I just had a matrixectomy.

tchrist

Graecum est.

So you plan to go unshod forevermore?

Mahnax

They removed the sides of my two greater toenails.

I can link you to a video of a similar procedure, if you'd like.

Cerberus

@tchrist Ugh. Never heard of that.

@Mahnax Umm perhaps some other time, but good for you!

By the way, you can't just stick a word onto ectomy!

You need to properly use the stem.

And it needs to be a Greek word.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Well, the podiatrist performing the procedure wouldn't let me watch, so I had to look up a video.

Cerberus

1:21 AM

You asked?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Take it up with whoever used it first.

Cerberus

And why weren't you allowed?

Mahnax

He didn't think it was a good idea, so rather than persist, I just agreed to not watch.

Cerberus

Yeah.

So did he think it was too gross?

Mahnax

Dunno.

He just said that he didn't think it was a good idea and I asked no further questions.

Cerberus

1:26 AM

Yeah OK I understand.

Is it gross?

To the average person, I mean.

You may be immune, I wouldn't know.

Mahnax

Ehm, I suppose.

An instrument goes under the nail.

Each toe is punctured with a needle in four places.

Some blood here and there.

Cerberus

Eww!

I knew it.

Mahnax

It's not so bad!

Watching a pregnancy is worse.

Cerberus

Haha.

And why on earth would I watch a pregnancy?

Mahnax

We watched a video of parturition in Biology class.

Cerberus

1:34 AM

Hey, do you think people learn more French in [Canada outside Québec] because of the French minority?

Mahnax

Parturition: The forceful expulsion of a fresh homunculus.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Sweet baby Jesus. Why!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Hm?

We learn it because it is a national language.

Cerberus

Ah, yes.

Exactement.

Mahnax

My replacement maths teacher likes using French phrases a lot.

Trouble is, he can't pronounce them.

N'est-ce pas? becomes nes-pot?

Anyways, Mahnax out.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

2:04 AM

@Mahnax your toes!

Cerberus

@Mahnax Pot, really? What is he trying to tell you...?

Bai!

And hello, baked-dough.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Hello, hell hound.

I started watching a matrixectomy video just now. I stopped.

Cerberus

2:19 AM

Noooo....

What were you thinking!?

Cerberus

2:45 AM

> This is a good time for you to look for groups—at your place of worship if you have one, at the Y, through a community center—of new fathers and mothers who want to get together and share this wonderful experience.

What is this "Y"?

Not the YMCA?

> “A democracy should not be dependent for its major decisions on what nine unelected people from a narrow legal background have to say."

I agree: it should be parliament that makes laws, not courts.

Mahnax

3:06 AM

My toes used to be tingling pleasantly. Now they are screaming what did you do to us?!

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Paracetamol?

A cold bath? A warm bath?

Mahnax

I'm supposed to wait until tomorrow to immerse them in water. I'll just tough this one out, I have things to do and painkillers make me sleepy sometimes.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Even paracetamol?

I suppose it will depend on how bad the pain gets.

I'm sure it's for the greater good anyway.

Just as some women (like Angelina Jolie) have the inside of their frontal appendices replaced with implants to ward off cancer.

If they still look acceptably normal afterwards, I think that's great (although it must suck to lose all feeling in them, but I think one can get over that?).

Mahnax

Even if they do not look "acceptably normal" afterwards, I think it is still good. She reduced her chances of breast cancer by 80 %.

Cerberus

Sure.

Mahnax

3:18 AM

"Acceptably normal" is pretty meaningless anyways.

Cerberus

Well, you know what I mean.

Mahnax

I suppose.

Cerberus

@Mahnax I didn't mean that otherwise she shouldn't have done it, but rather that it is wonderful how science has progressed, if something like this can lead to a life without many serious problems (which I think the total loss of said appendices must be).

Mahnax

@Cerberus Ah, that makes a bit more sense.

Cerberus

What's also interesting is this. By how many years has she raised her current average life expectation? And by how many years would she have raised it had she decided to have the operation not now, but in 10 years?

I presume your current life expectation decreases if you decide to have the operation at a later age.

TemporaryNickName

3:23 AM

I think my functional programming professor sucks at OO programming

he created a multi-paradigm language (functional + OO) and there is an OO example in my lecture slide like

//class for a Name?!!
class Name{
name:String;
setName ..
getName ..
}

//what the hack?
class Student extends Name {

}

WendiKidd

3:49 AM

..........

yeah that makes no sense

how about

class Student
{
string name;
};

not that hard....

Also, if for whatever reason you must make a class for 'name', for the love of god use composition, not inheritance, when you make the Student.....

tchrist

@Cerberus Can’t think of what else it might be.

TemporaryNickName

@WendiKidd I agree

but in what kind of situation it is worth enough to create a Class for name (composition)?

Cerberus

@tchrist Hmm OK.

tchrist

4:10 AM

@Cerb That one’s for you.

They’re trying to decode the hand, but posting what they think it is saying in the constructed language it represents in Latin so that the plebes don’t catch on.

Cerberus

@tchrist Could you add some thats?

tchrist

Here

Cerberus

You're hard to parse.

As to that letter, it looks like it was written yesterday and in a made-up language with made-up abbreviations?

tchrist

Kinda yes.

They are trying to figure it out. We have had enough examples now that they have a fair bit of vocab and grammar.

But they are posting their theories of what it says in Latin. :)

Cerberus

I'm not sure I understand what this is all about.

Who are "they"?

From your link, this would appear to be in the barbarian language made up for the televisions series by some linguist?

tchrist

4:16 AM

Right.

Cerberus

And why must the plebs not catch on?

tchrist

Spoilers. :)

It’s from third series Game of Thrones. The conlang is supposed to be Valyrian. It kinda matters a lot to the plot what it really says. They are very wicked to tease us like this.

Cerberus

So the literate are to be spoiled?

tchrist

The blog is from the linguist who invented it, but the followup analysis is all by enthusiasts, since the guy who did it won’t tell what it means.

Cerberus

"They"?

tchrist

4:19 AM

“They” are the people posting the followup commentary to the linguist’s blog article.

He’s the guy the show contracted to create the language. Martin isn’t clever enough.

Cerberus

Ah...

I know he isn't.

> * “Venitne pater?” “Venit.” “Is Dad coming?” “Yes.”
* “Paterne venit?” “Pater.” “Is **Dad** coming?” “Yes.”

I find this doubtful.

I don't recall ever seeing the subject repeated like this.

tchrist

I only have seen the verb.

And they still do that in Spanish and Portuguese. ¿Sabes si viene el padre también? They might well just answer that with a one-word Viene rather than sí.

TemporaryNickName

hehe Barbarian language

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah, exactly.

> Nescio utrum David noster doctissimus legere possit necne, ille autem utcumque libros iamiam legit. Ego ab altera parte nondum libros legi et Latine legere utique scio! At non certus sum me intellexisse quid dicere velis… fortasse igitur secreta nondum profanasti :p

I'm not sure whether this guys know much more about Latin than I do, or somewhat less.

Either I don't know what he means, or "ab altera parte" in an Anglicism meaning "on the other hand".

tchrist

That’s what I took it to be.

Cerberus

4:31 AM

His first clause looks impeccable. The second clause I don't even understand.

His third clause I don't understand except the Anglicism. His fourth clause I think I understand, but it is probably unidiomatic.

His fifth clause is clear but I suspect unidiomatic. His last clause is fine.

tchrist

I guess he’s calquing in Anglicisms.

Cerberus

Possibly, but not in the first clause.

Well, whatever. It's not easy to come up with Ciceronian Latin on command!

tchrist

I think they elsewhere talked about giving away secrets.

Cerberus

Yes.

His last sentence is clear.

tchrist

What do you think about the hand itself?

It’s weird seeing an insular script used with those letter combos.

God, I am deliriously tired. Can’t type anything.

I assume those are long r’s.

There are long s’s too, and probably some z’s.

But the random descenders bother me.

Cerberus

4:38 AM

@tchrist Yeah, it's weird.

@tchrist What do you mean random?

tchrist

Yeah ok, the ones on the k.

I don’t know that I have seen descenders on a k. It has an ascender, after all, so why would it also merit a descender? Only thorn has both.

Cerberus

Oh, yes, that's weird.

I can't be sure, but I doubt whether even Insular scripts had k's like that.

However, what bothers me most is the punctuation. It's freaking modern!

tchrist

Ah right.

Cerberus

And also the abbreviations, which I strongly distrust.

tchrist

You mean scribal abbreviations, or regular shortenings like writing "abbr."?

I’d swear the third word from the end is mori.

Cerberus

4:42 AM

@tchrist The former, if that is what they be.

Then what are those little stripes or bars doing there?

Monrin?

tchrist

Well, he does uses macrons in the language for long vowels, I think.

But yes, a tilde should be an -n or -m.

Except he actually does use it for ñ in the modern way.

The word above it would have to be a long mark on prúmie, since if it means a missing nasal, that makes no sense with the m coming right on after that.

That same word occurs earlier as prúmio, so some different inflection.

I believe his nominal case system is pretty fancy, IIRC.

I must sleep in my bed not this chair. Good night.

MετάEd

@Robusto That's not gay. That's just European.

3

He's folk dancing.

Cerberus

4:57 AM

@tchrist But...why? Nobody uses macrons except when forced to.

@tchrist Double nasal?

Goodnight! I'm off too.

@MετάEd Yes, everyone in Europe dresses up as a girl and dances around town wearing an American flag.

MετάEd

@Cerberus That's what I'm saying.

Cerberus

I'm just agreeing with you.

MετάEd

Weird, isn't it.

Cerberus

Innit, tho?

MετάEd

That you're agreeing with me. Yeah.

Cerberus

5:10 AM

No.

Okay, bed time. Bye!

TemporaryNickName

bye

MετάEd

@Cerberus Bye bye.

Gigili

5:31 AM

Hulia.

What does "Art Tax" mean?

MετάEd

@Gigili Howdy. Need context.

Gigili

7:01 AM

> Many of our residents discovered they were being asked to pay an Arts Tax to the City of Portland in May. The $35 per person tax was an effort to support the arts in Portland schools.

@MετάEd Um, sorry I didn't notice you were replying.

^ more context

Florian Margaine

7:23 AM

Hello.

Johan Larsson

Yo momma's so fat, that she should consider changing her diet and exercising more often.

Tweeted by AntiJokeCat on April 14, 2013 at 9:40 PM

Hej

Neil

9:53 AM

Sup @FlorianMargaine

Florian Margaine

@Neil Sup.

Amaan Cheval

@Neil Where have you been?

Florian Margaine

10:11 AM

@AmaanCheval how did your exams go?

you had them not so long ago right?

Neil

@AmaanCheval Around

Amaan Cheval

Yeah. They were alright. Should have my results by Friday

Neil

You know

Jez

Is "contents" singular or plural?

or is it similar to "data"?

Florian Margaine

table of contents has an "s"

maybe it's a special case though

Neil

10:22 AM

I suppose it is a bit like informations

You can use informations, but it often isn't used

Florian Margaine

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/content#Noun

Neil

If you want to explicitly state that there are several separate instances, then you make it plural

otherwise, just use content or information

dystroy

According to jQuery, I think it should be plural

> Get the children of each element in the set of matched elements, including text and comment nodes.

Florian Margaine

where is the word "content" there?

dystroy

api.jquery.com/contents

Neil

10:23 AM

@dystroy You should use the filter to select each individual content though.

Florian Margaine

anyway, if you read the wikitionary link I just posted, you'll see that content takes an "s" in its plural form

Jez

@Neil "contents" is often used

the question is, is the speaker thinking of it as singular or plural when they use it?

I think of "news" as kind of singular even though it's technically plural

Matt Эллен

I think data is different - it comes from a plural but people treat is as a mass noun, the same as milk

Jez

and you also say "it is news", rather than "they are news"

Neil

@Jez Content, by definition, is what resides inside a container

dystroy

10:29 AM

Isn't "It is news" a shortcut for "It's in the set we call news" ?

Neil

So if you use contents, you mean to imply there are multiple containers

Matt Эллен

"The content of your bag" -> content is a mass noun, not singular

"The contents of your bag" -> I want to say mass noun, but I'm not sure

Benjamin Gruenbaum

Hello, I was told I would be able to find a certain Mr. Lemon here, is he present?

Jez

@dystroy no. we also say "news is cool" not "news are cool"

it's a mass noun

contents feels a bit like a mass noun, a bit like a plural

"these are the contents", "this is the contents"

i think you can use it as either

Matt Эллен

ODO says content is not a mass noun

except when dealing with literary works

I'm not sure I agree

Jez

10:37 AM

Wiktionary says not a mass noun either but in "table of contents", it must be plural

Neil

I think it's better to handle singular items with an array, even if it is plural

Matt Эллен

Yeah, but you love Java

Neil

Yes, I love my coffee

Matt Эллен

enjoy!

Jez

Java is ludicrously densely populated

significantly smaller than Britain and with 2.5x the population

Matt Эллен

10:44 AM

4

Q: "The contents are" or "the contents is"

I have the following sentence: The contents of those zip files are normally installed from the Setup. I found I have to use contents instead of content in the sentence. However, do I have to use the contents are or the contents is? I guess it's "are", but it just sounds wrong. (I am a Fre...