English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight

8:00 PM

I should be pinging @MrHen, too.

Cerberus

8:14 PM

Uhm there is at least something chiastic in it.

RegDwight

The thing is, and I think we had this discussion before with synecdoche, I got taught different things by different people in different languages.

This is so unlike maths, alas.

Cerberus

Yes that is a real problem.

The point is that it doesn't matter so much what label you put in such figures.

RegDwight

Take the word for "integer" or "common divisor" in any language, it means just that.

Cerberus

... But not so for common denominator!!

RegDwight

Take "synecdoche" or "chiasmus", argh.

@Cerberus Hah, yeah well we've dealt with that one, thankfully.

Cerberus

8:17 PM

Classicists used to categorize the countless uses of the ablative under a plethora of obscure terms; thank God that time is past us now.

RegDwight

I like ablative.

I like all cases.

No case left behind.

Cerberus

Well! In that case, why don't you go look up the ablativus pretii, the ablativus mensurae, of mode, instrument, quality... etc. etc.

RegDwight

I said I liked it. I didn't say I liked it that much.

Plus, ain't ablative in Latin like a mixture of two cases?

Locative and instrumentalis?

Cerberus

Hmm well that is probably very complicated.

For starters, we still have the locative, as a separate but rare case.

Perhaps you could say it is a mixture of instrumentalis and separative...

But yes its weirdish origins do not help.

However, the genitive also has a great many uses. Explicativus, objectivus, possessivus, qualitatis, partitivus, pretii, etc.

RegDwight

Possessivus and partitivus are rather obvious to me.

Explicativus not so much.

Cerberus

8:25 PM

Yes, that one is tricky.

It is like a cloud of hope.

RegDwight

Well, that explains everything.

Cerberus

Or perhaps that is still too partitive-ish.

Haha yes, very self explanatory.

It is used when the genetive indicates something that is the equivalent of its head.

RegDwight

No wonder that stupid language died out.

Cerberus

For example, virtus abstinentiae: the virtue of abstinence.

Hey!

RegDwight

Haha.

Cerberus

8:28 PM

That is an explicativus.

RegDwight

Okay, I think I'm following.

Cerberus

It is like consist of (part.) v. consist in (explic.).

RegDwight

Unless, of course, you say, no wait, that's actually accusative.

Cerberus

What is?

RegDwight

I don't know enough about Latin to not believe you everything you say.

Cerberus

8:29 PM

Good.

RegDwight

Depends.

Cerberus

Well this one is easy enough to Google, i.e. to falsify.

RegDwight

Meh.

Cerberus

I know.

But it should keep me in check.

All three cases can be used to express a quality, by the way.

RegDwight

I know what happens when I google it. The first ten hits will be to various Wikipedias which will all be saying slightly different things in languages I don't understand to varying degrees.

Cerberus

8:30 PM

Ah that sometimes happens.

Depends on how narrow/specialised your search is.

Incidentally I am still waiting for a rival in the classics on this website. No classicists yet.

You have rivalling Russkiys.

RegDwight

Is it raining right now where you are?

Cerberus

Eh... no?

RegDwight

Okay.

Cerberus

It is a bit humid though. Should I expect rain?

RegDwight

I just hear a storm approaching, from your general direction methinks.

Cerberus

8:33 PM

Haha.

Well I didn't do it.

RegDwight

Some lightnings and distant thunder.

Cerberus

I see no rain on the map.

You're not going to say where you are, are you.

RegDwight

Well, look at the map and look where the storms are.

I already supplied Vitaly with a link to my Wikipedia page. I think that was enough for this week.

Cerberus

Oooh now I am getting closer!

I checked my map:

meteox.com/h.aspx?r=&jaar=-3&soort=loop1uur

And I saw no Unwetter moving away from here except above sea.

RegDwight

@Cerberus That map would suggest that I am sending you the weather rather than the other way round.

Cerberus

8:39 PM

Exactly.

Do you also blame the w... never mind.

My friend was once guiding this visitor from Germany around Rotterdam, who proceeded to ask, wo ist die Altstadt?. My friend said, you tell me!

MrHen

39 mins ago, by RegDwight

I should be pinging @MrHen, too.

eh?

Cerberus

Perhaps I have already mentioned this anecdote before.

RegDwight

@MrHen See above discussion about chiasmoi.

Cerberus

Haha thanks for the plural.

RegDwight

I'm here to plural.

MrHen

8:41 PM

@RegDwight I skimmed it.

Cerberus

I am glad you picked that up.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Well am I supposed to be saying chiasmussies or what?

MrHen

Is there an open question? I didn't see one.

Cerberus

You could say that, yes.

@MrHen: I don't remember what that was about either!

RegDwight

@MrHen Nah, you commented on my answer. Pinging you was my way of saying, I have no idea, really, come to chat to read more about how little idea I really have.

MrHen

8:43 PM

@RegDwight Oh

Okay

Yeah, as best as I can tell, a chiasmus requires the reversal play on words

Cerberus

Chiasmus is abba.

MrHen

"I want goodness for friends; badness for enemies" is not a chiasmus

Cerberus

True.

RegDwight

Yeah well that one's just a list.

"... and flowers for my wife."

Cerberus

... and new questions for ELU.

And loads of food for myself.

RegDwight

8:45 PM

@Cerberus That's what I was thinking about the whole time. That quote from the Bible is syntactically ABBA.

But is the same true of OP's example? I couldn't decide.

MrHen

@RegDwight Yes

Cerberus

Which quote?

Oh there was this question... I really can't remember what it was about at all.

MrHen

So the ABBA quote from the OP question does exist but it is a bit hidden by the pun

RegDwight

@MrHen Precisely. The pun's not exactly helping.

And then I also remembered antimetabole, and that just killed me.

~~Commit~~ post and run.

Cerberus

Haha what is that...

Oh, I got it.

RegDwight

8:48 PM

Antimetabole

In rhetoric, antimetabole ( ) is the repetition of words in successive clauses, but in transposed grammatical order (e.g., "I know what I like, and I like what I know"). It is similar to chiasmus although chiasmus does not use repetition of the same words or phrases. Examples * "Eat to live, not live to eat" - Attributed to Socrates * "Live to fly, fly to live" - Iron Maiden's 1984 song "Aces High" *Latin: Miser ex potente fiat ex misero potens Seneca the Younger, Thyestes, Act I.10 (let it make misery from power and power from misery). *The Latinate expression of Parmenides philosophical ...

Cerberus

Thanks.

MrHen

@RegDwight My instinct says that a typical chiasmus reverses nouns more than adjectives

(Btw, I am sort of drifting to and away from the desk.)

RegDwight

Okay.

Cerberus

Chiasmus could reverse any lexical category...

RegDwight

Well, this is where the whole language issue comes in, for me.

Cerberus

8:50 PM

It could be reversing something else too, like similarly constructed phrases.

RegDwight

35 mins ago, by RegDwight

The thing is, and I think we had this discussion before with synecdoche, I got taught different things by different people in different languages.

Cerberus

Right.

It is sort of pointless to bicker about the fine distinctions most of the time.

RegDwight

At least I get some comfort from looking at answers such as this:

0

A: "Passed all exams in the first term"?

All students obtained first time passes in their exams.

Cerberus

Eh what about it?

RegDwight

Just sounds funny to me.

MrHen

8:53 PM

@Cerberus Yes. I was just commenting on typical usage.

RegDwight

When I read "passes" somehow I always think of Futurama.

And Futurama is funny. Q.E.D.

Cerberus

@MrHen: OK!

@Reg: Ah I only now heard about it. I took the liberty of looking at the Wiki article myself (my apologies).

MrHen

@RegDwight "All students obtained [first time passes] in their exams." It seems like they received [first time passes] via their exams; as in, they succeeded at their [first time passes] exams.

Cerberus

In fact I only have to double click the word and then click once on the icon that appears next to the word.

RegDwight

@MrHen Yes.

►

MrHen

9:25 PM

1

Q: What would be a suitable name for the game panel in tetris?

I am trying to develop a Tetris clone. However, I am unsure what to name the panel where the user places the pieces. Game panel seems too generic since the entire frame is in fact the panel of the game. Are there any other options? Thanks in advance!

word-choice

I really don't think naming things is our area of topic

RegDwight

Rats, I just answered that one.

To my defense, we have a very similar question about PacMan somewhere.

5

Q: Alternative to "maze" as a description for Pacman's environment?

Pacman's maze is not a maze in the sense of being a place in which we get lost since we can clearly see where we are going. So what should we call the restricted environment in which Pacman operates? To clarify: I want another word to describe this rather than maze. Answers claiming that this...

word-choice vocabulary

We also have a lot of questions about naming database fields, labeling form fields and whatnot.

MrHen

@RegDwight Well, I just blew your answer out of the water

RegDwight

And those are open-ended; the Tetris question actually has an official answer.

MrHen

Mostly to just highlight why I think this is a terrible type of question

@RegDwight No; he didn't ask what Tetris calls the area (which would be off-topic); he asked what he should call the area in his clone

I think "describe this" questions are okay

I think "name this" are not

The Pacman question is a little more interesting in that there is a more generic question underlying it

"What do I call a maze that isn't actually a maze?"

RegDwight

An interesting way to look at it.

Hi @snumpy.

F'x

9:35 PM

Hey, is this @snumpy, das kleine Krokodil?

MrHen

I just think it is a nasty habit to start

snumpy

@F'x nope, and I don't speak German, either

MrHen

"I don't like these words: [a,b,c,d,e,f,g]. What is a better name?"

RegDwight

Well, then don't support it by answering.)))

Anyhow, I have to reboot. Brb.

MrHen

@RegDwight K

F'x

9:36 PM

@snumpy neither do I, so we're safe

MrHen

@RegDwight Not answering doesn't help... how would that help?

See also:

0

Q: Help with finding/coining an appropriate word

I've been at this for literally weeks. I'm trying to make up, by combining other words cleverly or even coining my own, a word to describe a service or network that links up professionals/students from all over the world together. I've tried so many things, but I think my creative juice has run o...

single-word-requests

@Fx Since I know you are lurking about, any opinions on the Tetris question? :)

(No worries if not.)

F'x

@MrHen I voted to close, but it was a coin toss

(well, not literally, I looked at the last digit of the clock at that precise moment, but you get the idea)

((actually, how should a coin toss be called when it's not literaly a coin toss? that's a nice question))

MrHen

@Fx I think "coin toss" works without a literal coin

snumpy

maybe a toss

toss-up?

MrHen

But probably only with two potential outcomes

@snumpy Ah... that would work.

@Fx Which digit means what?

snumpy

9:43 PM

@MrHen haha, I had the same question

I would say odd yes, even no

being that that's the answer with an integer %2

MrHen

@snumpy That's what I was thinking but flipped: 0 is no, 1 is yes.

snumpy

@MrHen... isn't that what I said?

F'x

even is yes, odd is no

MrHen

But I am totaling stealing that when near a clock

@snumpy Oh, so you did

snumpy

@F'x my programming soul screams in protest

...sigh... how come no one posts questions when I have down time?

MrHen

9:46 PM

@snumpy When do you have downtime?

snumpy

well, right now...

F'x

works also for poker odds: if you know that a particular hand has a 30% chance of winning the pot, you should fold 70% of the time you get it. But the brain is not good at estimating (or generating) randomness, and help can come from the clock: if the last digit of the seconds is less than 7, you fold; otherwise, you call

RegDwight

@snumpy Just post a question yourself. Problem solved!

snumpy

@RegDwight genius!

RegDwight

So I am.

snumpy

9:48 PM

@RegDwight ....I can't think of one...

RegDwight

Oh, we have a few spare parts lying around, lemme check...

MrHen

@Fx Whoa... that is totally abusable if I ever play poker with you...

RegDwight

Mar 7 at 18:08, by Robusto

@RegDwight — Here's my all-time shill question suggestion: "Which Ubuntu distro allows the fastest downloads of porn and more cowbell?"

Instant chart-topper.

F'x

@MrHen I don't play poker, my wife does (and she'd probably beat the crap out of you!)

MrHen

@RegDwight "The one your roommate is running."

@Fx Probably. I am not very good.

1

Q: Prepositional phrases on the internet

Is there any online dictionary or database of prepositional phrases? What I would like is to enter e. g. "justification" and it would give me: "justification to somebody", "justification of something", and other possibilities (optionally with description of the meaning of each phrase). I found t...

prepositions dictionaries prepositional-phrase reference-request

snumpy

9:50 PM

@RegDwight yes, extra cowbell is of supreme importance in any distro

MrHen

I feel like this is a bad question but I cannot figure out why.

RegDwight

@MrHen We're, like, men here. Adults. We don't have roommates.

MrHen

@RegDwight It was a euphemism for partner

@RegDwight And real men don't need help with Linux

RegDwight

Well, my partner doesn't know anything about Ubuntu or porn. Them would be my domains of knowledge.

F'x

“euphemism: [...] when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing”

that's not a nice thing to call your partner!

RegDwight

9:53 PM

Hear, hear.

F'x

(sorry, partner + linux keywords, I had to)

RegDwight

You post another XKCD, I'll kick you again.

See, people already starring that old rubbish.

I tried that IRL, doesn't work.

MrHen

@RegDwight You don't have your roommate installed properly

RegDwight

I just don't have enough cowbell.

Haha, someone's scared and revoked his star.

Chill, people.

MrHen

@RegDwight Every time I see "scared" I think "scarred"

RegDwight

9:56 PM

Go see a doctor about it.

F'x

@RegDwight the masses are indeed afraid of their fearsome leader

RegDwight

Feb 7 at 16:19, by Kosmonaut

Haha, I guess we are back in a psychiatry session then!

@Fx I'm not a leader. I'm a tyrant monster.

MrHen

@RegDwight Oh, that kind of doctor

@RegDwight A non-leader tyrant? Interesting.

RegDwight

@MrHen You can go see any doctor you like, sweetie.

F'x

if I were more skilled in web programming, I'd pipe ELIZA with RegDwight and see whose head explodes first

ELIZA

ELIZA is a computer program and an early example of primitive natural language processing. ELIZA operated by processing users' responses to scripts, the most famous of which was DOCTOR, a simulation of a Rogerian psychotherapist. Using almost no information about human thought or emotion, DOCTOR sometimes provided a startlingly human-like interaction. ELIZA was written at MIT by Joseph Weizenbaum between 1964 to 1966. When the "patient" exceeded the very small knowledge base, DOCTOR might provide a generic response, for example, responding to "My head hurts" with "Why do you say your he...

RegDwight

9:58 PM

What did I just say about posting old rubbish?)))

MrHen

@Fx Wait... since when does either have a head?

F'x

@MrHen What makes you say that?

RegDwight

If @Robusto were here, he'd make a joke about two heads.

MrHen

@RegDwight Not to mention our clog wearing friend.

RegDwight

How do you put that thin space in a d?

MrHen

9:59 PM

@Fx I view @RegDwight as a sort of phrase randomization machine instead of a real person.

@RegDwight With a... space?

RegDwight

22 hours ago, by RegDwight

Авпваойцехрварждоы.

F'x

bless you

RegDwight

Thank you.

F'x

now please wipe your Unicode droplets with a clean tissue

RegDwight

No wait, the official response in this chat room is different.

Mar 8 at 23:06, by RegDwight

Hm. Come to think of it, "damn you" makes an interesting response to "bless you".

So there you have it, damn you.

F'x

10:02 PM

@RegDwight U+261A BLACK MIDDLE FINGER POINTING UPWARD OF CLOSED FIST :)

RegDwight

2 hours ago, by RegDwight

/kick F'x again

F'x

/𐑒 back

RegDwight

What... is this:

-1

A: Is "would" the past future tense of "will" or just a modal verb?

Kosmonaut:I don't know where you are getting these ideas. "I told him that I would meet him in the city on Tuesday." — This is a past tense usage of will. "I couldn't watch my favorite show yesterday." — This is a past tense usage of can. These ideas come from long years of teach...

Who's he talking at?

Ah, I see. He as a -3 answer already.

F'x

I love the self-referring "I'm not ignoring you, Cerebus."

RegDwight

Yeah, saw that, tempted to upvote just for bashing the dog.

F'x

10:05 PM

/𐑒 the owl

RegDwight

Yawn.

Cerberus

Hey.

F'x

hey, the guy has another nice one here:

Cerberus

Who's bashing me?

F'x

-1

A: Usage of "might" and "would" to indicate doubt

Brian Hooper: I had a look via Google for more information on this point, but, try as I might, I couldn't find anything. I remember reading an article on the difference between "Launching the lifeboat may have saved lives" and "Launching the lifeboat might have saved lives" but I can't remember w...

RegDwight

10:06 PM

@Cerberus See a few messages above.

@Fx Yeah, I was just going to mention that timeless classic, except I didn't realize that it was by the same guy.

F'x

I just mass-flagged those

RegDwight

I don't think this poor sod realizes how SE is supposed to work.

F'x

well, I discover other nice things:

english.stackexchange.com/questions/3785/…

RegDwight

The question is, how do I lend him a helping hand.

F'x

is that a euphemism? :)

RegDwight

10:10 PM

I mean, he obviously doesn't quite realize that this is not your traditional forum.

Cerberus

To be honest I find this guy's posts tl;dr.

snumpy

@Cerberus amen

RegDwight

He doesn't have any associated accounts, so he might be completely new to the whole SE thing.

F'x

ok, gotta go, have a nice something

RegDwight

I'll give him some more time to get his Peer Pressure badge.

CU.

Cerberus

10:12 PM

He probably is new: he thinks it is just an oddly shaped discussion forum. That combined with his tendency to write too long posts that aren't very clear makes him a tad hard to follow.

Bye F'x!

RegDwight

The thing is, I feel like I must offer him advice.

snumpy

well, peace out, people.

F'x

I came back because of this:

Dan

101 3

modal-verbs word-choice grammaticality past-tense politeness grammar usage

Dan

31 1

tense word-choice modal-verbs usage verbs politeness subjunctive-mood

there are two accounts with same name (and gravatar) and the same love for past tense of modal verbs

and one of the first account's answers says:

0

A: "Should" as past of "shall" / "Might" as past of "may"

My apologies if this shows up odd. I'm not familiar with the functions above the YOUR ANSWER box According to the dictionary definitions (e.g. in Merriam-Webster) , "should" is the past of "shall" and "might" is the past of "may": But are these modal verbs really used as such? I ...

did he travel back in time to send his older self a message?

gone for good, this time :)

RegDwight

@Fx Nice catch, thanks for that. Will merge.

In the mean time, I have commented on one of his answers.

Not sure it will help.

-1

A: Is "would" the past future tense of "will" or just a modal verb?

Kosmonaut:I don't know where you are getting these ideas. "I told him that I would meet him in the city on Tuesday." — This is a past tense usage of will. "I couldn't watch my favorite show yesterday." — This is a past tense usage of can. These ideas come from long years of teach...

Merge complete.

Thanks @Fx.

Cerberus

10:30 PM

@Reg: Perhaps he made a second account because he wanted to post two answers to the same question, as he has done, if the site didn't allow it? That would be surprising, though, considering the fact that his 101-rep account shows that he has experience on other se sites.

I mean, how hard is it to find the Edit button?

RegDwight

Um. I don't see any associated accounts...

@Cerberus Seriously, where are you looking? I'm puzzled.

Cerberus

Oh it died. I saw a 101 account, the first of the two F'x posted here.

RegDwight

Ah.

Darn. Now I'll have to go fishing on other sites.

Cerberus

Oh you deleted it?

RegDwight

Do you remember any particular one?

Cerberus

10:33 PM

No I don't remember anything (as you know by now): I just saw 101 in this very chat, that's all.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I dunno, perhaps the merge cleared the associations. Would make sense.

@Cerberus Ah. Hold on.

Cerberus

Oh, you merged his accounts!

RegDwight

He actually collected that rep.

On this site.

It's not your usual 1 + association bonus.

Cerberus

Haha what? How?

RegDwight

Well, by answering questions.

Cerberus

10:34 PM

And why is his account no longer clickable? I get Alice.

RegDwight

Dan

127 3

modal-verbs word-choice tense usage politeness grammar grammaticality

That's a nice Gauss curve, if you ask me.

Cerberus

english.stackexchange.com/users/7501/dan

That's the one F'x posted, and it's dead, at least to me.

I think you did merge both accounts? That would explain the sudden rep change.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Because it got merged.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Then I am satisfied.

It also helps that I ate a croissant.

RegDwight

No wonder you're no longer barking. :P

Cerberus

10:38 PM

Exactly.

Haben Sie gebellt?

RegDwight

Haha.

Ich habe gemiaut.

Cerberus

That is what a Dutchman is supposed to say when he returns to his counter to serve a German client.

Bellen = ring in Dutch

RegDwight

Yes, I know.

Cerberus

Oh.

What don't you know?

RegDwight

But it also makes a nice word play without that.

Because you can say "Haben Sie geschellt" in German.

Though that's getting a bit archaic.

Cerberus

10:40 PM

Hmm yes... and I'm sure they is some noun like Bell in German as well?

RegDwight

Nowadays you'd say "Haben Sie geklingelt" or "Haben Sie geläutet".

Cerberus

Schellen is Dutch as well, but even more archaic.

Hmm funny, I'd have sworn the Germans had some word like bell as well, but it appears they don't.

RegDwight

0

Q: Can I start a sentence with "because", whether I am answering a question, or giving a sample of an idea?

I would like to know if the next sentence is right: "Because in this case, both are spelled the same way"

usage

14

Q: Can a sentence start with "Because"

In my grade school days, I recall a teacher proclaiming to the class: You should never start a sentence with the word "Because". Of course, I've since seen lots of examples to the contrary, and done so my self that seem to be perfectly correct, grammatically. Did she shorten some other rul...

sentence grammaticality conjunctions

Cerberus

Bel- is an old root in Dutch, used a lot, and in several rather different context.

@RegDwight Yeah close it please.

RegDwight

Lend me a hand.

Cerberus

10:45 PM

Done.

RegDwight

Never hurts to have some backup.

Cerberus

I don't think this one was controversial...

RegDwight

You never know.

But when they come after me, I now have a dog. A three-headed one.

Cerberus

Hey I just found out that the message that the invisible arrow links to becomes grey when you hover over the linking message! Never knew what that grey colouring was for.

RegDwight

Facepalm.

Cerberus

10:46 PM

I know.

RegDwight

Mar 17 at 18:54, by RegDwight

Cerberus

Yummy a juicy squirrel... I am still a bit hungry.

RegDwight

Scroll up a few days, Robusto hat eine ganze Bäckerei gepostet.

Or just use the life savers.

Feb 9 at 15:00, by Robusto

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…