English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

6:03 PM

@tchrist What does being hip have to do with pop culture specifically?

And what does Android have to do with either?

Noah

Because Android doesn't take an article.

@Cerberus Hello

Cerberus

@Noah For Android. For the Iphone (although without the is sometimes used). For IOS.

Hiya.

Noah

Yeah, that's the problem. That's why I came here to ask one of the experts.

Cerberus

Well, there you have it, hehe.

Noah

Thanks.

(Hug)

Don't run, I don't stink.

Cerberus

6:06 PM

> the app has a built-in compass, GPS, etc.

Noah

:)

Cerberus

Good to know.

> Engaging starts to mean partaking in the bitching until you feel like that's all you're doing.

English can be such an ugly, confusing language.

Noah

@Cerberus That's funny.

> no one speaks British anymore except the Indians. Even then they speak American, just like the Bible.

I don't know if by Indians he means Red Indians or the other Indians?

Cerberus

Mitch was obviously joking.

Indians from India.

Noah

Yeah, I know.

Okay. I thought he was talking about our Indians.

The real Indians. :)

Cerberus

6:15 PM

The ones in India are arguably realer!

tchrist

Etymological fallacy

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. This does not, however, show that etymology is irrelevant in any way, nor does it attempt to prove such. A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies, or claiming th...

Noah

@Cerberus I doubt that.

I think the ones in America are the real ones.

might be wrong, but tad's what I think.

Cerberus

How do you define "real"?

The word is based on the name "India". We both know that. What else is there to say?

Noah

"of a kind in which the light that forms it actually passes through it"

But the two are so distinct.

So you are saying that Red Indians originally came from india?

Cerberus

No, but their name did.

tchrist

6:22 PM

pops popcorn

Cerberus

Because the first explorers called anything outside Europe / Africa / Near East "India" sometimes.

tchrist

Next you’ll be telling us that an American robin is not a real robin. That’s nonsense and you know it.

Cerberus

Do you ever have a real point to make, or are you just saying random words?

tchrist

11 mins ago, by tchrist

Etymological fallacy

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. This does not, however, show that etymology is irrelevant in any way, nor does it attempt to prove such. A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies, or claiming th...

Things are what people call them. That’s all that counts.

Cerberus

I wonder why you are never direct and efficient in discussions.

tchrist

6:28 PM

Please stop being a prick.

Cerberus

Just say want you want to say and don't beat around the bush.

Don't make people guess.

tchrist

I’ve been perfectly clear. Sorry you’re being dim.

Cerberus

Never mind, then.

By the way, I meant even there, not ever. I am not that harsh.

What I was saying is, I totally have no idea what your point was.

Noah

@Cerberus The OED has this entry for Indian:

>Indian |ˈindēən|
adjective
1 of or relating to the indigenous peoples of America.
2 of or relating to India or to the subcontinent comprising India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh.

Cerberus

Sure.

We all know that.

Noah

6:32 PM

If you look at it, the first one refers to American Indians.

The second one refers to the other kind of Indians.

Cerberus

So?

Noah

Doesn't this mean that the first entry is the main meaning of the word?

Cerberus

What does "main" mean?

My OED has the derivational order:

Noah

primary

And then it has the following note under Usage:

> usage: Indian, meaning ‘native of America before the arrival of Europeans,’ is objected to by many who now favor Native American. There are others (including many members of these ethnic groups), however, who see nothing wrong with Indian or American Indian, which are long-established terms, although the preference where possible is to refer to specific peoples, as Apache, Delaware, and so on.

Cerberus

So what about it?

"Many" is mainly PC Americans, probably.

Noah

6:36 PM

I mean it doesn't say anything about Indians from India. If they were the real ones, why would the dictionary list the american ones>

Mitch

@Noah are you kidding?

Cerberus

18 mins ago, by Cerberus

How do you define "real"?

Noah

@Mitch Kidding about what?

Cerberus

18 mins ago, by Cerberus

The word is based on the name "India". We both know that. What else is there to say?

14 mins ago, by Cerberus

Because the first explorers called anything outside Europe / Africa / Near East "India" sometimes.

tchrist

10 mins ago, by tchrist

11 mins ago, by tchrist

Etymological fallacy

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. This does not, however, show that etymology is irrelevant in any way, nor does it attempt to prove such. A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies, or claiming th...

Noah

6:38 PM

Okay, got you

Mitch

are you kidding when you lead us to believe that you think that the order of definitions of a dictionary...

Cerberus

I have no idea what either of them means.

Noah

So what you mean is that it would be offensive to call an American Indian Indian?

Mitch

forget it.

Noah

@Mitch No, that's what I think. Am I wrong?

Cerberus

6:39 PM

@Noah To a certain group of all-too politically correct people only.

Mitch

It might (depending on what the aborigines local to north america think)

Cerberus

"Normal" people use the word Indian for American Indians.

Mitch

I've heard that they'd rather just be called 'Indian' just because it's quicker and less intrusive, if totally inaccurate historically.

Cerberus

It is better than being named after the family name of an oppressive Spaniard!

Noah

@Cerberus You mean abnormal people use it the other way around?

Mitch

6:41 PM

@Noah Wrong is too strong. Different dictionaries order their terms differently. Also, word meanings change over time. Also, a name doesn't impart 'realness'.

Cerberus

I mean people who complain about "Indian" for American Indians are too politically correct for my taste.

tchrist

@Cerberus Which oppressive Spaniard would that be?

Cerberus

You know this.

Mitch

@Noah Anyway, the word indian etymologically comes from Sanskrit/Hindi and eventually was erroneously applied to the inhabitants of North/South America

Cerberus

Or perhaps it was a nickname. Or a first name.

tchrist

6:43 PM

@Cerberus Whom were you thinking of?

Cerberus

Am I supposed to tell you what you already know?

Mitch

@Cerberus actually I dont know.

tchrist

15 mins ago, by Cerberus

Don't make people guess.

Hypocrite.

Mitch

that's a bit strong

tchrist

He won’t say it because he knows he screwed up.

Cerberus

6:46 PM

Excuse me?

tchrist

Just answer the question.

Cerberus

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Mitch

holy crap, let's get back to a noncontroversial topic like the mideast peace process.

tchrist

3 mins ago, by tchrist

@Cerberus Which oppressive Spaniard would that be?

Noah

So if Europeans called everyone outside of Europe Indian, why didn't they call Aussies the same?

Mitch

6:46 PM

@Noah You're being too literal

tchrist

waits

18 mins ago, by Cerberus

I wonder why you are never direct and efficient in discussions.

Cerberus

Amerigo Vespucci. He lived in Spain and worked for Spain. He may have retained whatever Italian citizenship he had, or acquired Spanish citizenship.

tchrist

Amerigo Vespucci

Amerigo Vespucci () (March 9, 1454February 22, 1512) was an Italian explorer, financier, navigator and cartographer who first demonstrated that Brazil and the West Indies did not represent Asia's eastern outskirts as initially conjectured from Columbus' voyages, but instead constituted an entirely separate landmass hitherto unknown to Afro-Eurasians. Colloquially referred to as the New World, this second super continent came to be termed "America", probably deriving its name from the feminized Latin version of Vespucci's first name. Background Amerigo Vespucci was born and raised in F...

Cerberus

I don't know where he was born.

If that's what you mean.

tchrist

Yes, you were wrong.

Cerberus

6:48 PM

Wrong?

Mitch

Vespuccia?

Cerberus

About what? His place of birth?

tchrist

Many, many times.

> At the invitation of king Manuel I of Portugal, Vespucci participated as observer in several voyages that explored the east coast of South America between 1499 and 1502. On the first of these voyages he was aboard the ship that discovered that South America extended much further south than previously thought.

You can’t tell an Italian from a Spaniard, nor a Spaniard from a Portuguese.

hands out clues

Cerberus

See, if that's what you meant (which I would find incredible), you would just have said, "he was Italian", instead of this stupid drama. Be efficient and direct.

tchrist

1 min ago, by Cerberus

Amerigo Vespucci. He lived in Spain and worked for Spain. He may have retained whatever Italian citizenship he had, or acquired Spanish citizenship.

1 min ago, by tchrist

> At the invitation of king Manuel I of Portugal, Vespucci participated as observer in several voyages that explored the east coast of South America between 1499 and 1502. On the first of these voyages he was aboard the ship that discovered that South America extended much further south than previously thought.

Cerberus

6:49 PM

> Vespucci organized the fulfillment of Berardi's outstanding contract with the Castilian crown to provide twelve vessels for the Indies.

> Died February 22, 1512 (aged 57) Seville, Crown of Castile, in present-day Spain

Why are we even arguing about this. It is utterly inconsequential.

tchrist

He was not Spanish.

He was Italian.

Cerberus

IT DOESN'T MATTER

tchrist

And it was not his family name, either.

Mitch

OK that was difficult. Now for an easier one...on-state or two-state solution? Corridor to the ocean? And what about the settlements? Reparations (for both sides right)?

I think it's because talking is more important that resolving.

Cerberus

You're just trying to be annoying.

tchrist

6:51 PM

No, merely correct.

Cerberus

> It is better than being called by the name of an oppressive Spanish agent!

There.

It doesn't change a thing about how silly it is to insist on calling Indians "Native Americans" when you think about it.

tchrist

Good. Now we can move on to the oppressive part.

I call them what they call themselves. Which in my experience has always been Indians. What point are you trying to make?

Cerberus

I am not discussing a random witticism as though it were interesting or important.

tchrist

I saw no witticism.

Cerberus

So how about the weather.

Noah

6:54 PM

@Mitch Did you read the whole thing?

Mitch

argh...OK less tendentious: multiple universes in quantum chromodynamics

Noah

Obama went there gave a speech and came back

Mitch

@Noah which whole thing?

Noah

News stories about his trip

Mitch

the obama speech thing?

Noah

6:55 PM

yeah

Mitch

not really.

which means no.

bunch of words.

Noah

Okay then why are you bringing that up?

Mitch

because it is a change of topic from the heat of the conversation about 'indian' and 'american', and I was humorously trying to reduce that by changing the subject to something that most people think is all heat.

ha ha ha. he says humorlessly

Noah

Lol

You don't have to write ha ha ha when a single LoL will do.

Mitch

I do have to. I don't have the keys for l, o, and l on my keyboard.

tchrist

6:58 PM

That’s twice or thrice as long as it needs to be.

Noah

Now we are getting into another heated discussion,I guess. Wathc out.

tchrist

But you get to be mysteriously hippy that way, I guess.

Mitch

two thirdths?

tchrist

No thank you, I just had coffee.

Noah

@Mitch then how do you write do, I, and other letters?

tchrist

6:59 PM

:)

☻

Mitch

I certainly don't use 'l' for those. The 'o' is my secret.

☺

success!

☹

You can use O. Unless you want the o to go in a love letter to your GF.

tchrist

7:01 PM

‿̈

Cerberus

@Mitch You did well!

Noah

@Mitch I have a friend his name is also Mitch. He is obese, weighting way over 222 lb.

Cerberus

How old?

Noah

I posted a question on fitness.SE

Cerberus

Wow.

Noah

7:03 PM

He is probably 17-18

Cerberus

How tall?

Noah

He can't go to gym, so I suggested he do stair climbing at home.

I don't know.

Cerberus

Does he have some kind of disorder, or does he eat too much?

Noah

Maybe 5,4 5, 5

Cerberus

You never know.

Noah

7:04 PM

I think he eats a lot of junk.

Cerberus

Okay, then his BMI will probably be obese!

OK.

Mitch

@Noah Holy shit... that is me!

@Cerberus blushes I tried.

Cerberus

And you even sacrificed your own body as a topic?

Mitch

@Noah OK OK I get it. I start with shorts walks. Better? I'm kind of self conscious about it.

Cerberus

The main thing is: reduce calorie in-take.

Mitch

7:07 PM

@Cerberus what? hell no...well maybe body parts. The whole shebang is going overboard (is that mixed metaphor?).

Cerberus

To maybe 2000kc/day.

Haha, I don't even know what metaphor shebang belongs to...

tchrist

#!

Mitch

@Cerberus portion size - activity. weight itself is (somewhat) of a misdirection. of course morbidly obese (BMI >- 40) is too much.

@Cerberus I know! Me neither!

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, but...how does this make reducing calorie intake bad?

@Mitch phew

Noah

That's the problem. He will gobble up everything he sees on the table. When we go to Red Mango he spends more than 15 bucks on ice cream.

He comes from a richesh kind of family.

Cerberus

7:09 PM

I do sympathise with his gluttony. But it just has to stop.

Hmm normally it is the poorer, the fatter, in Western countries. On average, of course.

Mitch

@Cerberus ? I don't think reducing calories is bad. definitely a good thing (of course depending)

Cerberus

OK.

tchrist

@Noah Easier to drive a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to fit into a 30-inch waste.

Mitch

@Cerberus 1st world problems.

Cerberus

Yeah...well, also 2nd world.

Mitch

7:10 PM

What -is- the 2nd world?

former communist countries?

tchrist

It’s always us and them.

Mitch

or halfway between developed and developing?

Cerberus

Yeah, and any that (used to) sympathise with the SU a lot.

tchrist

And who-the-hell-cares.

Noah

@Mitch That's where you would be called a comrade

Cerberus

7:12 PM

I guess the line between 2nd world and 3rd world is hard to draw.

Mitch

@tchrist I think if you walked the camel it would be much easier. I mean otherwise ou'd need a trailer and a truck big enough to pull the trailer. by then the eye is going to look very narrow indeed.

@Cerberus eg? egypt? India? I have no idea.

Noah

@Cerberus Since he is so big, he is worried that stair climbing might hurt his legs or knees. I don't know if that's true.

tchrist

@Noah For that God invented mountains.

Mitch

@Noah actually, it's the going -down- stairs that is not so great for your knees. Just plain walking is a good start.

Cerberus

@Mitch Nah, those are 3rd world.

Probably China.

And of course most of Eastern Europe, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam...

Mitch

7:14 PM

but portion control is probably also a good start. small plates, you know, psych tricks.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah that's excellent.

Noah

@Mitch Well, since he hast to do it at home, he has to go up and down the stairs.

Cerberus

@Noah As long as it doesn't hurt a lot, it won't hurt him.

Mitch

@Noah he -has- to do the exercise at home? He can't gofor walks?

Noah

I don't think he will do mountain climbing.

Cerberus

7:15 PM

Why don't his parents do something?

tchrist

@Noah No, not climbing, silly! Walking. Just walk.

Cerberus

Stop buying high-calorie food, and send him to a dietician.

tchrist

In the mountains.

Mitch

@Cerberus but really it is the two together, eating control and -some- exercise, that will go a long way for large BMI.

tchrist

@Mitch That’s because of how much energy it takes to haul around a mega-ass.

Noah

7:17 PM

@Mitch He is a bit lazy.

Cerberus

@Mitch Sure, exercise is fine. But many people will just eat more after exercise. And you can easily eat 500 Kc in fifteen minutes, which takes e.g. an hour to burn off.

Mitch

Since we;re still talking about me, I would favor something that doesn't take a lot of thought. also cold turkey (abrupt change) will probably not work with me.

tchrist

Easier just to get in the back of the pickup with the camel.

Walking does not require thought.

Mitch

@tchrist that would stop me from eating.

Cerberus

@Mitch Why not? I love cold turkey. Especially with mustard sauce. Or did you mean you preferred a warmer Turkey and you were going to visit Istanbul in summer?

tchrist

7:19 PM

He meant the real turkey.

Noah

@Mitch You know Prince Turkey?

Mitch

hmmm... gravy... mmmm.

I prefer Hofstadter turkey. mesquite smoked.

Funny typo.

It’s testing our medal.

Mitch

7:21 PM

It's metaphorical.

classic

Noah

When he was a student at a school in NJ, people asked him what his name was, to which his reply was "Turkey", and then they would say umm, like an Easter Turkey.

I am talking about a real Prince Turkey.

tchrist

What a ham.

Mitch

Yeah, that was one of my better stories.

Noah

Well, his name is i think Prince Turki

But it's pronounced the same

Prince*
\

Mitch

In Turkish, the 'i' is nasalized so it sounds like 'prince' to us.

tchrist

7:28 PM

Is the pope Latino?

Noah

@tchrist That's what they say

tchrist

@Noah Read the article.

Noah

But he doesn't look like

"Latinos come in all colors and shades and features," Ivette Baez said in an emotional debate on the "Being Latino" Facebook page.

THis part is funny. hahaahhaha

RegDwighт

1

Q: Random loss of 2 rep

I have just lost 2 rep and nothing is showing up on my reputation tab. Has this happened to anyone else? Why has this happened? It's really strange and annoying, since I have spent all day trying to raise it again.

Oh my.

tchrist

Yeah, I saw that.

Jesus wept.

RegDwighт

7:32 PM

He spent all day trying to get two points on some website. On a Sunday, mind you. Poor sod.

Cerberus

Hiya.

RegDwighт

Booyakasha.

tchrist

Sunday is tough on preprandial repcapping. But possible.

Noah

Ali G

lol

Cerberus

He might consider changing his strategy if a whole day is not enough to regain 2 reps...

RegDwighт

7:33 PM

Wagwan, Noah.

Cerberus

> * All injury kits also share a 5-minute cooldown to furthur discourage dying.

From a game. Funny text.

tchrist

Incorrigible.

RegDwighт

Well at least they didn't write discurrage.

Cerberus

Heh.

I mean, it is absolutely correct within the game.

Dying is discouraged that way.

RegDwighт

That's very weak discouragement.

Just forbid dying. By the threat of death. Problem solved.

Cerberus

7:35 PM

Reminds of Theme Hospital, where nurses would regularly shout over the intercom:

> Message to all patients: please try not to die in the corridors. Thank you!

tchrist

Suicide is a capital offence, and notion.

Cerberus

With the typical operator intonation.

As in, supermarket cashiers.

Noah

Jorge Mario Bergoglio

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Well, what he is doing is increasing the threat of death, by making it worse for you.

Since you can be revived.

Noah

@tchrist Do you think he is Latino?

tchrist

7:37 PM

@Noah I dunno what Latino is.

Noah

Since they come in all colors in shades, according to that article.

tchrist

But if you tell me, then I shall pass judgement.

Noah

He doesn't look like a Latino. His name sounds Latino.

Cerberus

Oh, it was even better! It's only 4 seconds:

►

tchrist

@Noah So Latino is a look, not a sound? Or vice versa?

Noah

7:38 PM

What the heck, does it matter if he is latino or not?

Mitch

@Noah didn't they go through all this? Aren't his parents from Italy? (explaining the Italian name)

tchrist

Curious, isn’t it?

Noah

No, to me it's a race.

Yea.

Mitch

@Noah La Raza!

tchrist

White Italian-American immigrants have never been considered “Latino”. Wap != spic.

Noah

7:39 PM

Raza Longknife.

Mitch

@tchrist but at one time they were considered 'other'.

Cerberus

Many Italians emigrated to Argentina.

tchrist

@Mitch Um, so?

Cerberus

That's why the Argentine accent is generally regarded as Italian-sounding.

Mitch

Also... 'latino' is mixed up mess concept. and really only works in the US.

Cerberus

7:40 PM

It does sound rather Italian, especially the intonation.

Noah

And many did to the states. But nobody says he is Italian.

Mitch

@tchrist people who consider latino's 'other' might lump in Italians.

Noah

They are all american here. I don't know why this poor fella has to get so much hoopla for his ethnicity.

Mitch

People lump in Sikhs with Muslims so there's no accounting for stupidity.

tchrist

@Mitch The poor shall be with you always.

injects holiday spirit

Cerberus

7:44 PM

> <

I wonder what character(s) this might represent.

> You now get a +0.5 bonus when < 25%, and +3 bonus when < 10%.

Lower than?

tchrist

Huh?

Cerberus

Or "equal to or lower than"?

tchrist

It’s the standard entity.

Cerberus

?

tchrist

You mean “less than”.

Cerberus

7:46 PM

Could it be that in some code?

tchrist

It is that in all code.

Mitch

it's html

Cerberus

OK.

Never seen this before.

tchrist

It is entity escape for xml and html and blahdiemmell.

Mitch

≤ is less than or equal

Cerberus

7:47 PM

OK.

tchrist

%entity2char = (
 # Some normal chars that have special meaning in SGML context
 amp    => '&',  # ampersand
'gt'    => '>',  # greater than
'lt'    => '<',  # less than
 quot   => '"',  # double quote
 apos   => "'",  # single quote

Cerberus

There are so many web pages with dysfunctional characters.

Why not just use =<?

tchrist

Huh?

That doesn’t mean anything.

Because <foocrap> means something special, of course.

Noah

@tchrist Is it part of perl?

I have never used Perl.

Is your book available in mobi format? @tchrist

tchrist