English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

5:04 PM

@KitFox So ... we won't be able to close anything anymore? My, how standards have fallen since The 2011 Big Brouhaha of Moderator Shame Over Unclosed Questions (which resulted in the departure of Kosmonaut and a general sense of unease and discontent).

KitFox

No, it's supposed to make everything kinder and gentler.

And we're expected to close more.

Which I find Ironic.

+3.

Highly reactive.

Robusto

I take it my wtf and tl;dr close box isn't going to be implemented.

KitFox

Not that I saw.

Robusto

More's the pity.

KitFox

I don't want to homeschool, but I want to have an active role is my son's education.

This is apparently a novel concept.

tchrist

5:45 PM

@KitFox They expect us to close more, as in that closing more is something they want us to do, or is it something that they think will be an automatic outgrowth of these nebulous changes to the close interface?

KitFox

> rely on God's standards for your children.

...and I'll stop reading right now.

tchrist

fmh

KitFox

@tchrist Closing won't seem so scary and negative anymore.

tchrist

@KitFox Good luck with that.

@KitFox Bet you wished you stopped earlier.

KitFox

I was just trying to find some homeschooling resources. Apparently, around here that translates to "Bible-thumping in private."

TRiG

5:48 PM

@tchrist Asking for the definition of a word is and has to be General Reference.

Are you certain they won't allow that on ELL?

tchrist

No, I am not certain.

It is a hunch.

KitFox

The close reasons will change somewhat and there will be subreasons to make things more specific.

And the "closed" text will become "on hold" for something like five days.

tchrist

I wonder how they will assess whether this hurts people’s feelings less than the current way.

KitFox

Well, they're nixing the boldface.

tchrist

Ah.

KitFox

5:54 PM

So the end result will be something more like On hold: This question needs more context before an answer can be provided.

or something.

tchrist

Do you mean that the face of the first line will go from bold not regular?

Ah, subreasons.

I guess we will need some custom subreasons here on ELU for GR.

KitFox

And general reference will be somewhere under "off-topic" I think.

tchrist

Since others don’t have it.

I see.

KitFox

There will be some subreasons that are custom for each site, and some that are standard.

tchrist

It is possible, not easy but possible, to provide virtually any lame GR question with a wonderful answer that adds value to the site.

KitFox

5:56 PM

I think that means that we'll have something like Closed: The answer can be found in a dictionary or thesaurus.

tchrist

But that requires Heroic efforts that are above and beyond.

@KitFox I would not mind that.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto and resulted in ELL

KitFox

The gist is that closure will seem less final and more constructive.

tchrist

Because it will include pointers/directions as to how one might salvage it, right?

KitFox

Yes.

And it will say "On hold" so it gives the impression that it is closed for repairs.

Instead of just closed.

Matt Эллен

5:59 PM

yay

tchrist

I’ve been thinking about Grace’s pinned note. If you sort closed questions by recentness and discard the dupes, quite a few of those might fly on ELL, at least as that site is currently parametered.

@KitFox I can envision cute little “Construction Zone” or “Men Working” or “Closed for Repairs” graphics.

KitFox

barfs a little

tchrist

‭ ⛏  26CF       PICK
        = under construction
        x (hammer and pick - 2692)
        x (construction sign - 1F6A7)
‭ 👷  1F477      CONSTRUCTION WORKER
‭ 🚧  1F6A7      CONSTRUCTION SIGN
        x (pick - 26CF)
‭ ⚒  2692       HAMMER AND PICK
        = mining, working day (in timetables)
        x (pick - 26CF)

KitFox

I'm trying to think of some good ways to encourage my son to write. Do you guys have any ideas?

tchrist

Letters?

What age?

KitFox

6:04 PM

He's very nearly five.

tchrist

Very young.

KitFox

He's got mad skillz, but writing is very obviously behind all the rest.

He can read and do math.

He can write his name, but he's not too keen on practicing any kind of printing.

Ethereal

Prodigy incoming...

tchrist

Seems young to me. Maybe just working on letterforms, so that they are easier for others to read.

KitFox

He's not a prodigy. He likes to learn and Mommy likes to teach him.

Oh...printable comic book templates...that could be good.

Ethereal

6:08 PM

Does he program too?

tchrist

@KitFox Any sort of touchy-feelie poor-widdle-feewings spin risks eliciting barfage.

KitFox

@Ethereal Not yet, but soon. When he can write, then we'll start.

Ethereal

@KitFox Impressive.

KitFox

Not really. Five isn't too young for logic.

He already shows good reasoning.

Hell, my two and a half year old surprised me with his logical inference ability just this weekend.

I had told him not to bounce on the seat because it made the booth shake and it would disturb the people behind us. So he stopped. About twenty minutes later, they left. He nudged me and said "Mommy, they gone. Can I bounce now?"

Pretty significant logical complexity for a kid that young. He might actually be a prodigy.

Ethereal

Kit, did you try out the Sally-Anne test?

KitFox

6:14 PM

What's that?

Ethereal

Sally–Anne test

The Sally–Anne test is a psychological test, used in developmental psychology to measure a person's social cognitive ability to attribute false beliefs to others (Wimmer & Perner, 1983). The flagship implementation of the Sally–Anne test was by Baron-Cohen, Leslie, and Frith (1985); in 1988, Leslie and Frith repeated the experiment with human actors (rather than dolls) and found similar results. Test description To develop an efficacious test, Baron-Cohen et al. modified the puppet play paradigm of Wimmer and Perner (1983), in which puppets represent tangible characters in a story, rath...

KitFox

I haven't tried that. Hmm...

tchrist

6:27 PM

Question: when we make tag synonyms, do these auto-merge?

So it looks like meaning and word-meaning are now considered synonyms, and yet they have their own separate counts. I do not understand.

Do we have to request a merge on meta?

KitFox

I don't know. I never look at the tag stuff.

tchrist

I just noticed that I could vote on tag syms, so I did. Like the one I just mentioned. That hit 4 votes, so it synonymized, but did not merge. So I am confused.

0

A: Synonymise tag [word-meaning]

These are now synonyms, but they are not merged. They still have separate counts: word-meaning shows 62 and meaning shows 3,392. What does that mean, given that they are synonyms? Do we have to request a merge for each of these? I seems really silly to have singular and plural forms (li...

@Reg Hey look, it’s your favorite LEGO question. :)

Sudhir

7:05 PM

Hi @MattЭллен

Hi @KitFox

KitFox

Hiyo.

Chicken on a raft.

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 1 minute 16 seconds.

Sudhir

What's time at your end?

KitFox

2:07 in the pm.

user19161

@KitFox OMG, that stupid song!

KitFox

Hiyo.

Chicken on a raft.

Sudhir

7:08 PM

In chat box the time depends on local time?

KitFox

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 3 minutes 2 seconds.

Sudhir

@KitFox

KitFox

Yes, except the transcript is in Zulu time.

So it's local time when you're in it.

Sudhir

What's that?

KitFox

Greenwich Mean. UTC 0.

Sudhir

7:09 PM

Oh

KitFox

Which is time plus zero, or z-time = "Zulu" time.

Sudhir

Its means it takes time from my machine.

Its showing 00:40

KitFox

Local time is your local time.

Sudhir

So how's weather ?

in US?

KitFox

The US is a big place. Which part are you asking about?

Sudhir

7:12 PM

in your place?

simchona

There's quite a lot of weather areas in the US, from tropical to...freezing cold

KitFox

It's cold. Partly sunny.

No precipitation.

Sudhir

In India its normal

Have you taken your lunch?

simchona

We have precipitation here

Cerberus

Really??

How...precipitous.

Sudhir

7:15 PM

@KitFox: You use FB?

KitFox

No.

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 10 minutes 22 seconds.

Sudhir

okay

Cerberus

You are brave.

Sudhir

@KitFox: You're native speaker of English?

KitFox

Yes.

Sudhir

7:16 PM

That's great.

I love it.

KitFox

It has certain advantages.

Sudhir

You know in my country its regarded as intellectual whose native language is English.

I just wonder the guys whose native language is English.

KitFox

Well, I have been given to understand that the majority of academic publication is in English.

Sudhir

Yeah

So every one's native language is English is US?

KitFox

@Sudhir Probably "Those whose native language is English are regarded as intellectual" would be clearer phrasing.

simchona

7:19 PM

@Sudhir Not necessarily. Some people have immigrant parents who teach them something else first

KitFox

And some people are immigrants.

tchrist

@simchona liquid or illiquid?

Sudhir

Oh

simchona

@tchrist Light rain with a side of cold.

Sudhir

@KitFox: Sorry. I'm novice to English, please pardon me if I make a mistake.

KitFox

7:20 PM

> Dubtoes fore and the Dustman aft, sitting here picking at a chicken on a raft.

@Sudhir I'm not insulted. I thought you might like to know.

Sudhir

ok tell

My mother tongue is Hindi.

I always chat with you to improve my English.

KitFox

It has already gotten better.

Sudhir

Being a non native speaker of English, I use to get bad marks in it.

simchona

@Sudhir In this case, you would say "used to" since it happened in the past

Sudhir

but as I was in English medium school,forcefully I need to learn it

KitFox

7:24 PM

Middle school? About 11 to 13 years old?

Sudhir

Thanks a lot @simchona

simchona

@KitFox I think English-language, perhaps?

Sudhir

Yeah @KitFox

simchona

Oh, I was wrong. Disregard.

KitFox

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 19 minutes 56 seconds.

Sudhir

7:25 PM

My Grammar was very weak.

But now I can communicate not in a convincing manner but yes to some extent.

KitFox

Not convincingly native-speaker, but you get your point across.

Sudhir

So tell me if you don't know any difficult word, what you usually do?

I prefer OED.

simchona

For a quick definition, Google works pretty well

KitFox

I use Dictionary.com.

Sudhir

I think you guys must be knowing at least 60% of difficult words.

as you're native speakerof English.

simchona

7:29 PM

@Sudhir It would be "must know" here

I'm trying to figure out what the rule is behind that. @KitFox, ideas?

KitFox

@Sudhir Depends on the person.

Sudhir

@simchona: be can work here.

KitFox

Know isn't usually a gerund.

simchona

@Sudhir Not really

It sounds a bit stilted and off to say "must be knowing"

KitFox

"Must be knowing" sounds odd.

Sudhir

7:31 PM

Oh

simchona

You can say "must be going", as in "it's getting late; we must be going now"

Sudhir

Oh

Cerberus

@KitFox Yeah, it depends on the Aktionsart.

KitFox

I can't say a rule though. Just for sure know isn't like that. There's no state change or something.

Sudhir

Thanks for the correction

Cerberus

7:31 PM

Some aspects don't combine with certain Aktionarten.

KitFox

What's an Aktionsart?

Sudhir

@KitFox: I've one question.

simchona

As opposed to Komediesart or Horrorsart?

Or Romcomart

Sudhir

Why do US companies outsource their work to India?

KitFox

Oh, like verbs. Action words?

Cerberus

7:33 PM

I was getting to that: the meaning of the verb itself independent of tense or form can include certain semantic elements that overlap with the semantic elements normally expressed by tense or aspect.

KitFox

@Sudhir Cheap workforce.

simchona

@Sudhir "outsource"

Cerberus

So "know" already has a continuous element built in.

simchona

@Cerberus This is why we need you. I could never have known that.

KitFox

And supposedly Indian call center employees speak English already.

So no need to train them first.

tchrist

7:34 PM

Supposably.

Cerberus

Combining it with the continuous aspect as in "to be knowing" makes it redundant. With some verbs, this is perceived as ungrammatical.

@simchona *could have been knowing

But thanks!

Sudhir

So your company is also doing that?

tchrist

*could have had been being had known

Cerberus

Somehow it is easier to analyse a language that is not your own.

KitFox

Most Americans find it frustrating though. "HellomynameisBob." Indian English is very difficult for Americans to parse.

Cerberus

7:35 PM

For most people.

At least for me.

simchona

@Cerberus I disagree with that, if that was a correction. Sounds weird to me

Cerberus

@simchona Joke!

KitFox

It's like there are no spaces between words.

simchona

@Cerberus Oh thank god

Sudhir

So your company is also doing that?

simchona

7:36 PM

I was worried I was going to have to actually parse that

Sudhir

@KitFox

KitFox

@Sudhir No.

Cerberus

I was directly contradicting my own theory, hehe.

tchrist

@KitFox You cannot lex it because the sounds and intonation are wrong.

So the word boundaries get screwed up in your mind. Not your fault.

They are not sending the right cues.

simchona

@tchrist And they introduce words like "prepone" that aren't in US English, as far as I know

KitFox

7:37 PM

I had an Indian colleague and when I'd ask him to repeat himself, he'd say it exactly the same way. I'd ask him to say it slower, and I still couldn't understand.

Sudhir

I was working on a project but one guy of US complained to my PM

tchrist

Lots of those.

KitFox

It was terribly frustrating.

So we ended up communicating via email most of the time.

tchrist

They also have a very strange idea of progressive and perfect aspects.

Which renders things ungrammatical.

KitFox

Even though he was just across the hall. And I could see him from my desk.

Sudhir

7:38 PM

oh! I also don't understand amercian articulation.

simchona

@KitFox, will you hop into the mod room for a sec?

Sudhir

pronunciation is very weird.

KitFox

@simchona Sure.

Sudhir

@KitFox: You know your one dollar cost us very much.

We just imagine if we earn from US and spend in India it would be heaven for us.

Why is there so much difference?

KitFox

I know. That's why we outsource. Indian workers will work for far less money and benefits than US workers.

@Sudhir Dunno.

Sudhir

7:43 PM

You know if you give $100 it would be like $5000 for us.

but still company give us only 50% of it.

KitFox

I don't like discussing these sorts of topics.

Sudhir

ok

what you like

tell me

tchrist

Don’t blame you.

I practically live in India some weeks.

Sudhir

@tchrist: Where?

KitFox

I'm in the middle of pulling some data right now anyway and I need to focus on that for a bit so I can leave early.

Sudhir

7:47 PM

??

KitFox

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 42 minutes 30 seconds.

Sudhir

What does it mean?

KitFox

Which?

MετάEd

It means you might be on a raft with a chicken until 25 or 6 to 4.

4

KitFox

Hiyo, chicken on a raft.

Sudhir

7:48 PM

Its time?

I didn't get your colloquial language

@MετάEd

?

Okay I'm leaving as its 1:30 midnight

Bye @KitFox

MετάEd

@Sudhir I apologize; that is an in joke referring to a popular song.

Sudhir

ok no problem

bye

KitFox

8:07 PM

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 1 hour 2 minutes 34 seconds.

There. That makes more sense.

@Sudhir Bye.

Eugene

8:35 PM

Evening everyone!

Guys, how is core different from kernel?

Don't they both mean one and the same?

simchona

@Eugene Have you checked a dictionary?

Eugene

seems similar in description:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/core

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kernel

simchona

I would pay attention to the order of the definitions--for "core", being the "central part" is primary, but it's only the 5th definition for "kernel"

Someone who isn't in a computer science context won't really associate "kernel" with the primary definition of "core"

"Core" is more widely known for that meaning

MετάEd

8:55 PM

Are we even sure the context is computation?

Johan Larsson

what is the origin of the word douche?

I'm too lazy to google

simchona

@JohanLarsson In which context? The English slur?

Johan Larsson

when calling someone a douche, I think it is American but not sure

simchona

I meant English as opposed to French, where douche means shower

Johan Larsson

ah ok

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but not much info here

simchona

9:05 PM

OED doesn't have much more. Just attestations, no explanation

Johan Larsson

it is an ugly word imo, I'm kind of surprised it is so widespread.

Douchebag is about as ugly as a word gets right?

simchona

Ugly in what sense?

It isn't the meanest thing you can call someone

Johan Larsson

I just find the word ugly in itself for some reason.

dunno why

I agree it is pretty mild when calling someone it, similar to calling someone rude or unpleasant right?

simchona

It's more than "rude", maybe near "asshole"

Johan Larsson

yeah you nailed it.

This was a little surprising

simchona

9:14 PM

That was one of its first meanings in English

Before it became derogatory

RegDwighт

@tchrist unless I misremember, that's by design. The two actions are orthogonal; or two sides of a coin, for a more apt metaphor — one affects the future, the other one the past.

Robusto

@JohanLarsson I don't know how that could be surprising.

Johan Larsson

I was surprised.

Robusto

9:29 PM

It was originally used metaphorically as a slur to describe someone (usu. a man) who had a predilection for performing cunnilingus, which was seen in some circles as eccentric or even unmanly—making that person some kind of an object of derision.

Johan Larsson

where did you find it?

Robusto

Where did I find that description?

Johan Larsson

yes

Robusto

I pieced it together from all the 20th-century literature I've read, which is a considerable amount.

Johan Larsson

ok nice.

how's Python btw?

Robusto

9:34 PM

@JohanLarsson For example, Google James Jones's From Here To Eternity and go to page 307 where you'll find "you cant see any further than that douchebag nose of yours."

@JohanLarsson It's not for me, it's for my son. I have actual work to do today, more's the pity.

Commute.

Robusto

10:40 PM

> From about the time of Bach until the beginning of our own century—roughly two hundred years—our Western music has been based almost exclusively on only two modes—the major and the minor. I can’t go into the whys and wherefores of it now, but it’s true. And since most of the music we hear in concerts today was written during that ... period, we get to think that major and minor modes are all there are. But the history of music is much longer than a mere two hundred years. — Leonard Bernstein

Tru dat, Lenny.

MετάEd

11:20 PM

@Robusto Yes:

►

@Robusto Now tell me what mode THAT is!

tchrist

11:40 PM

@JohanLarsson That’s kind of a low-class and/or little-kid thing.

Grown-ups who don’t live in trailer parks don’t use that sort of language.

@Robusto They don’t call it the “common practice era” (or something like that) for nothin’ ya know.

Cerberus

@tchrist I think that is a bit exaggerated.

Saying "douche(bag)" is not the exclusive privilege of children or the lower classes.

It is used more widely, at least by younger people.

tchrist

Kids I grew up with used to say it in high school. It always seemed like trailertrashtalk to me.

I certainly wouldn’t expect to hear it from a grown up.

Cerberus

Then you will be surprised.

There is even the adjective.

tchrist

I avoid trailer parks.

dootch?

Cerberus

Again, it is not only heard in trailer parks.

Douchy.

tchrist

11:46 PM

Never heard it.

Cerberus

Now you have.

tchrist

You’re tarnishing your image.

@MετάEd I think you can get shots for distemper these days.

Dang it, only 44 votes today.

MετάEd

@tchrist Some of her work is well tempered but with more than 12 divisions of the octave.

Or fewer.

chatkillah

Let's not forget douchebaggery.

tchrist

@MετάEd Well- != Equal-.

@chatkillah Bugger that: no begging allowed.

chatkillah

11:54 PM

@tchrist off-topically, did the Rocky Mountain News get delivered to Boulder?

tchrist

@chatkillah Once upon a time.

chatkillah

I understand that it shuttered 55 days short of its 150th birthday.

Terrible.

MετάEd

@tchrist Yes. I wrote about equal temperament here.

tchrist

I have a non-equal-tempered WTC recording around here somewhere.

Dooch seems to be missing out of brooch, hooch, hoochie, Hoochinoo, hootch, hootchy-kootchy, klooch, kloochman, koochahbee, kootchar, mooch, moocha, moocher, moochin, mooching, moochy, mourning-brooch, pooch, poochie, scrooch, scrooched, scrooching, scroochy, smooch, smooched, smoocher, smoochily, smooching, smoochy, zoochemistry, zoochlorella, zoochore, zoochory.

MετάEd

I assume that list is pure spelling? Because it's missing cootchie.

Plus it's missing ootchie-wootchie-kootchie-coo.

tchrist

11:58 PM

But it has hootchy-kootchy.

MετάEd

It does!

chatkillah

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…