« first day (234 days earlier)      last day (4087 days later) » 

12:01 AM
I don't think the end is close, if the progress stay as it's now, we might need additional two years in which the situation will be worse, especially for citizens
The System النظام never seems to be willing to surrender or even negotiate, they began training Alawite women in their Army to fight as too much of their men died
Also there are many soldiers from Hizbullah, Iran, and Muktada Al-Sard's armies
Well it's not problem for me to say it, I'm using a proxy currently
OK :)
 
you can probably find it online any way
 
What time was it? I mean which decade for example?
I'm just interested to know because I never new there was any system like this in any historical period!
So you mean the system before he became president?
Well just let's stop talking about it :)
 
:)
 
It seems you're still frightened, it's OK brother, it's over, they're gone and we have our Freedom now, they can't control people inside of the country to control them outside :)
They barely can defend themselves, soon they will be pushed back to homelands
 
Insha'Allah when it is over, something worse won't take the place of the current system
could you imagine what it would be like with Basil?
 
12:15 AM
Insha'Allah, for me, anyone Muslim would be better
 
Insha'Allah
 
Ooooh I could, He would use chemical weapons directly
 
if there are even chemical weapons which I have reason to doubt, but Basil would have stopped the thing from the beginning
or find something worse then chemical weapons
 
Agreed
 
but actually when we look back in history, tyrants are every where
 
12:18 AM
There's difference between tyrants who just want to stay on the chair, and tyrants who want to ruin societies
 
@TamerShlash true
 
Umayyad Khalifes are, at worst cases, of the first kind, they're still muslims, they still follow Islam
 
but there position blinded them
 
Agreed, but still they're far much more better than the current one, they at least promoted science and raised good manners in the society
 
Question: what do Masha'Allah and Insha'Allah mean?
 
12:22 AM
@El'endiaStarman Masha'Allah means what ever God wills, Insha'Allah mean God Willing
@TamerShlash there is a Hadith, can't find it now, but it says that the most evil of creation are those at the end times. I am not sure of the authenticity though
 
@AlUmmat Okay, thanks.
 
@El'endiaStarman your welcome
 
We're not sure that we've reached the end times, the signs of The Last Hour are not seen yet
 
"Hadhrat All (R.A.) says Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "A time is soon to come when Islam will remain only by name, and the Qur'aan will exist only in words. People will erect large and beautiful Masjids, but these Masjids will lack guidance and be deserted. The worst creation below the skies will be the Ulama-e-Soo’. Great Fitna (evils) will emanate from them and they themselves will promote fitna and they will be the center of Fitna."
 
@TamerShlash true, but there are some minor signs that I believe have come to pass
 
12:26 AM
(no clue as to the authenticity either)
 
Yes, especially الحفاة العراة رعاء الشاة يتطاولون في البنيان
 
yep
 
@goldPseudo Where did you get it from?
 
looks like it's a copy-paste of something else, not sure what the original is. neither the hadith, nor the original article, is cited that i can tell.
 
it might be a good question on the site
 
12:31 AM
yep. i'll ask it myself when I get home (God willing) if nobody beats me to it.
it's a perfect question.
 
@goldPseudo I will leave it to you
I can't think of a Good title
 
Me too
 
12:44 AM
Huh. I find this most-recent exchange curious. Is it really that hard to look up a possible hadith?
 
@El'endiaStarman if the book where the Hadith came from was known I could try to find it on a Hadith program from islamspirit.com, but if the Hadith book isn't known than it might become challenging to find the Hadith, we can search sunnah.com, but if it isn't there (they are still developing) than it becomes more difficult, and we want to get our sources from reliable sources
sunnah.com is one of our reliable sources
 
it's additionally difficult when you're dealing with translations without the original arabic text to refer to.
 
Huh, interesting. Is it only recently that the Quran has been available online in an English translation?
 
sunnah.com has search capabilities and a good selection of the major books. there are a lot of minor books though, and a lot of them don't have published translations.
the Qur'an has been available in English for a few centuries now.
afaik, the earliest translations were typically written by non-Muslims, or translated from an earlier translation from another language.
 
@goldPseudo Who wrote the major and minor books and how many of each are there? Also, is that a good question for the site or is it too basic? How about this very question? :P
 
12:55 AM
"who wrote the..." would be too much of a list question. there's a lot of books.
(above lists are not exhaustive)
most of them are of questionable authenticity; the six major collections are so esteemed because the collectors went through much more rigorous criteria to determine what was worth recording.
 
@goldPseudo So the Qur'an is not a closed canon?
 
the qur'an is closed canon.
the books of hadith are a separate corpus.
 
but they both go together
 
they're basically just witness accounts of what the prophet did, said, or how he acted.
 
@goldPseudo Ahhhhh....okay... Hmm. Are the book(s) of the Qur'an considered hadith as well?
 
12:59 AM
the Qur'an, on the other hand, is considered the direct word of God Himself, as relayed through Muhammad.
(it's not like the bible, which afaik is typically considered "divinely inspired", but not His direct words.)
 
@goldPseudo So am I right in assuming that there are no new hadiths being created? That is, all hadiths are from within a century or so of Muhammad's life?
 
that's correct.
 
@goldPseudo (Yes, the whole thing is typically considered "divinely inspired", but it does still have a lot of direct words from God.)
@goldPseudo Gotcha. Okay, so, the Christian analogue would be the Apocrypha, I believe.
 
any ahadith which don't have a chain of transmission directly to the prophet himself, or one of his companions, is typically rejected. either as a fabrication, or as just too weak to be useful.
 
@goldPseudo Ah! Okay, that's interesting, because all of the books in the New Testament (Injeel, right?) are written by first-generation Christians and anything further removed isn't included in the Bible (at least, not the Protestant version).
 
1:22 AM
@El'endiaStarman fun fact: in Islam, the Gospels of the new testament would be best likened to sira, which are compiled biographies of the life of the prophet. Sira is yet another of the many sources of Islamic information (although they're typically not used in the development of Islamic law).
 
2:01 AM
@goldPseudo So we've got the Qur'an, Hadiths, and Siras, Are there any other major (in the sense of foundational) sources for Islamic information?
 
@El'endiaStarman there is Ijma', which is consensus on a rule not in the Quran or the Sunnah, but can be deduced from the Quran and the Sunnah
 
@AlUmmat So that'd be like Christian church traditions, especially those that were established early on. Particularly creeds, I'll bet.
 
@El'endiaStarman the church doctrine?
you liken liken it to the early traditions of the church
actually Ijma' was first formed by the Sahaba/companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon Him)
 
2:20 AM
@AlUmmat So are the Ijma' all ancient, or may there be new ones occasionally?
 
@El'endiaStarman yes, there maybe new ones where needed
and this goes into Fiqh/Jurisprudence, which is the application and or understanding of the Sharia law
 
@AlUmmat Okay, so they are like church doctrine, except they're agreed-upon by a broad swath of Islam (Sunni or Shi'a)?
 
@El'endiaStarman An interesting potential parallel in the Common Law system, which develops by precedent. And different precedents apply in different jurisdictions, even if the underlying laws are the same.
(In fact, I've seen an argument that the British Common Law system was based on fiqh, but I don't know how widely accepted that is.)
 
@TRiG Well, Al Ummat mentioned Fiqh/Jurisprudence, which would deal with the application of laws. The Ijma' seem to be more like elaborations on the original works. I guessed that they would be much like the creeds developed by the Ecumenical councils.
Something like the doctrine of the Trinity, for instance.
 
@El'endiaStarman a rule that came to be through Ijma' isn't a single creed, it is all part of the Shariah
and there is a difference of opinion on who's Ijma we go on
 
2:28 AM
> Ijmāʿ (إجماع) is an Arabic term referring to the consensus or agreement of the Muslim community. Various schools of thought within Islamic jurisprudence may define this consensus as that of the first generation of Muslims only; the consensus of the first three generations of Muslims; the consensus of the jurists and scholars of the Muslim world, or scholarly consensus; or the consensus of all the Muslim world, both scholars and laymen.
Wikipedia.
 
some say the Ijma of the whole ummah, others say just the Ijma of scholars
 
@AlUmmat Can you give an example of an Ijma?
(Singular, that is. It seems to me like "Ijma'" is plural.)
 
@AlUmmat From my reading over at Mi Yodeyea, Jewish practise develops similarly (ish).
 
@TRiG Yes, that was my thinking too. At least part of it is driven by the advancement of technology.
 
> For the forseeable future, as long as there is a world, there will be claims that it will end soon.
FeygeleGoy.com, comments on Slacktivist
 
2:33 AM
For instance, the situation where one is waiting at a busy crossroad for the light to change. I've heard about an area with a significant Jewish population that installed sensors that detect when someone is standing there, waiting for the light to change, so that they don't have to push the button that most people would push. Just because pushing that button is considered work on the Sabbath.
 
@El'endiaStarman I think it's not so much pushing the button as causing something to happen with electricity (by an expansion of a ruling against lighting fires).
Something like that.
 
@TRiG Ahh, that would make sense. Something like that. In either case, it's caused by the development of new technology.
...an atheist and a Christian just discussed Jewish law in a chat room for Islam. Awesome. :P
5
 
@El'endiaStarman which chatroom?
 
@AlUmmat This one! TRiG is atheist, I'm Christian, we were just discussing the Jewish notion of doing no work on the Sabbath as it applies to the modern world.
 
ah ok, sorry I am not really following the conversation.. There isn't one example for Ijma
I can't think of any right now
 
2:40 AM
in English Language & Usage, 41 secs ago, by tchrist
Still sounds like a “. . . walked into a bar” joke.
 
@TRiG LOL.
 
@AlUmmat The Wikipedia article didn't give any examples either.
 
3:07 AM
See you guys tomorrow Insha'Allah
salam
Alaikum
 
Ali
3:42 AM
1
Q: Does Jewish history record Jesus's saying "I am God" or similar utterance?

AliI came here searching for a question regarding ancient Jewish rabbis view regarding Jesus. Are there any Jewish sources or authoritative ancient texts that show that Jesus never claimed divinity (saying "I am God") but rather only claimed to be messiah, or not even that?

@Caleb
@El'endiaStarman you would like to check out the above question
 
 
2 hours later…
5:46 AM
i'm hoping this question stands strong enough to be constructive; i don't want it turning into a debate:
2
Q: Is it possible to interpret Surat An-Nisā':157 as allowing that Jesus was crucified?

goldPseudoIn Islam, the common understanding is that Christ Jesus was never killed nor was he crucified; this understanding is quite reasonable given that God says وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ و...

 
 
4 hours later…
9:40 AM
@goldPseudo Interesting question. I've actually heard that argument before, but it was from a non Muslim (not sure about his Arabic either) trying to score a point and I wrote it off as being absurd. But it would be interesting to know if that is actually a possible reading of the text and, if so, if any Muslims believe that way.
I suggested a new title to help keep it from derailing into non-constructive.
 
 
4 hours later…
1:40 PM
@Caleb Given only the two ayah I quoted, I don't think it's an absurd reading (else I wouldn't have asked the question). I think the crux of how viable it is really depends on whether there's substantial extra evidence (e.g. from the hadith literature) clearly supporting one interpretation over the other.
i didn't want to just ask for evidence against it, as it would likely devolve into people posting strong arguments for the common interpretation instead (which is not the same thing). even now, i suspect I'll still get a lot of those.
 
who wrote hadith ?
 
@Theorem a lot of them were written by the tabi'in, but afaik not all of them.
 
how tough is it to learn arabic ?
i want to read quaran in arabic language
 
1:56 PM
it's a language like any other. how hard it is depends on how good you are at learning foreign languages.
it's nothing like English, which can be difficult.
 
u mean its difficult than english ?
 
no, i mean it's different. they share very little in the way of grammar, vocabulary or alphabet.
it's not like, say, an English-speaker trying to learn German, which are very closely related.
 
Ali
2:47 PM
assalamaalikum
 
wa 'alaykum assalaam
 
Ali
@goldPseudo can you please verify the below info:
Some Christian Gnostics also believe he was not Crucified:

The Second Treatise of The Great Seth

It was another...who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I... it was another Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height (the hills) over... their error. And I was laughing at their ignorance. (for thinking it was I who they were crucifying)

AND The Gospel of Judas never mentions the event at all! Quite surprising considering Judas' (يهوذا) role i
 
so? older doesn't mean more accurate.
 
Ali
The Second Treatise of The Great Seth
??
no
 
3:02 PM
which story seems more likely? That the incident didn't happen because a single account doesn't mention it, or that the incident did happen because of at least four accounts that do?
there were a lot of ahadith written down before Bukhari's compilation; are those hadith more accurate?
 
Ali
I am not at all asking about the age of The Second Treatise of The Great Seth
 
what are you asking then?
 
Ali
its authenticity
 
i would say doubtful.
it says a number of things that go against Islamic thought.
 
Ali
to christians?
 
3:14 PM
it's a Gnostic scripture.
 
Ali
like sufi=gnostic?
its mysticism i guess
0
Q: Does Jewish history record Jesus's saying "I am God" or similar utterance?

AliI came here searching for a question regarding ancient Jewish rabbis view regarding Jesus. Are there any Jewish sources or authoritative ancient texts that show that Jesus never claimed divinity (saying "I am God") but rather only claimed to be messiah, or not even that? Update : As the questio...

 
it says, for example, that a lot of the prophets (Adam, Moses, Abraham) were "laughingstocks" for their ignorance.
 
Ali
Can you please have a look at the above history.se question and verify it fits in history
 
in that the God of Abraham was not the one true God.
i don't frequent history.SE; i really am not fit to judge what is or is not a good fit over there.
 
Ali
One clear reply i am getting in both Judaism and history is that Jesus never claimed divinity
 
3:24 PM
The Qur'an already says that. That's good enough for me.
 
Ali
anyways i would really love to hear how you found Islam ?
 
i don't find it too bad. a bit hard on the knees, but i'm used to that now.
 
Ali
i mean how you became muslim :)0
 
i already told you. i heard about it and it made sense so i accepted it.
there's no real story there.
 
Ali
you heard it and accepted or read it?
 
3:29 PM
i heard it and accepted.
 
Ali
Wow that sounds really great Mashallah!
and thats the story too!
Sorry for budging you , but did You have a christian background?
 
nope
i was born and raised skeptic.
 
Ali
family too?
 
yes.
 
Ali
Ok basically you were atheist?
 
3:35 PM
more or less.
i didn't put much thought into religious matters at all.
 
Ali
Ok thanks for the conversation jazakllah khair
 
wa iyyak
 
 
4 hours later…
7:50 PM
Another terminology question: what are ayah and tabi'in?
Unrelated: @Ali, are you Sunni or Shi'a?
 
@El'endiaStarman ayah literally means proofs or evidences, but is typically used to refer to a verse of the Qur'an. tabi'in means followers, and refers to the generation of Muslims after the sahabah themselves (i.e. those who met (and especially who learned from) one of the people who met the prophet personally, but didn't meet him directly)
 
@goldPseudo Okay, thanks!
 
nabi (prophet) -> sahabah (companions) -> tabi'in (followers) -> tabi al-tabi'in (followers of the followers)
a lot of islamic scholarship took place during the generation of the tabi al-tabi'in; the ability to trace any given tradition, person by person, from them all the way back to the prophet was considered very important.
like a giant game of Telephone.
2
 
8:10 PM
@goldPseudo, salam
 
@owari wa 'alaykum assalaam
 
My question about Umar is making trouble here?
I tried to remain polite
and added no extra info other that the wordings of the Hadeeth itself
and the Hadeeth was from one of the most accepted Sunni books
Any problem with such questions?
 
the question itself isn't too bad (at least the current version of it). it could be better phrased, but i feel it's fundamentally on-topic and constructive.
 
ok thanks @goldPseudo
 
i believe the problems lie more in your extraquestional activity than in the question itself.
(e.g. the comments)
comments are not to be used to attack other people's answers. if they write something that you feel is fundamentally wrong, downvote it and/or post your own answer.
 
8:16 PM
I saw the feedback, he was too angry, though I was not targeted to mean such
 
if it's not fundamentally wrong, but just has a couple of facts that could use clarification, then comment. or edit it yourself. as long as it doesn't change the fundamental point that the post is making.
 
You are right, but if his answer has some wrong points how can I mention them?
 
if it's not wrong per se, but just a known difference of opinion, then just post your own answer expressing the alternate view.
 
Is it ok to write another answer explaining why such points in another answer is wrong? Even if the new answer is not a direct answer of the question?
 
all answers should stand alone as a direct answer to the question.
 
8:19 PM
and that make my job really harder!
 
it depends on what you consider "your job".
we're not here to prove other people wrong. we're here to answer questions.
5
 
answering what I suppose to be right, and mentioning what I think as wrong not letting the others to be misguided
 
the stack exchange model is designed for that purpose. typically if something seems hard, it's by design to prevent that sort of activity.
you can downvote to not let the others be misguided.
that's exactly what downvotes are for.
 
But voting system cannot mention the reasons, unless using the comments and the comment issue we already had proves it not working for my point ;)
 
as i said, if something seems hard, it's usually by design. comments are short for a reason.
plenty of other users have no problem leaving comments explaining a downvote.
there's no reason to explain in detail every single possible point of contention.
 
8:23 PM
Yes, but my points have been considered as biased, probably deleted due to many flags and you know Shia are the minorities here
 
salam malekum
 
@Theorem Wa Alaikum salam
 
ok thanks
سلام علیکم
 
i want to learn arabic
but running sort of time
 
And @AlUmmat, congrads, i noted you are the new moderator here!
 
8:25 PM
@owari thank you
 
@Theorem, I'm not very good in Arabic but very good decision
Arabic was indeed the language of Science for a while as well
 
@owari we are not a debate site. as i said, comments are short for a reason; they are not designed to explain point-by-point issues with a given answer. if an answer is "wrong", just downvote it and post the "right" answer. that's how the system is supposed to work.
 
@Theorem to start, I suggest you look at madinaharabic.com
@owari Wa Alaikum salam
 
@goldPseudo, yes I am trying to be short in comments after your warning, however counting mistakes without further explanation should be accepted, right?
@goldPseudo, the chat section is it for debate? arbitrary debate?
 
@owari if your comment is doing nothing but attacking an existing post, it's not constructive. constructive criticism is that which allows the poster to improve their post.
 
8:30 PM
@owari yes, but with respect of course
 
chat is for whatever people want to chat about. debate has been more than welcome here as long as it's civil.
 
@goldPseudo, I was aiming to be such but it was not apparently.
 
debate is good, it helps questions to come from it
 
@AlUmmat, respect is my main concern here
and union indeed
@goldPseudo, there is a possibility that someone will not accept my points but the points can be useful for other readers, what about them?
 
@owari comments are ephemeral. you should never rely on them.
 
8:35 PM
@goldPseudo, recently I have come to the same conclusion ;) not for providing further info persistently
 
When shouldn't I comment: Secondary discussion or debating a controversial point; please use chat instead
even the chat is more permanent than comments.
 
From where Sunni brothere know the name and reputation of the Shia Imams?
Very eager to know
Is it through Ahadeeth or only historical evidence?
How do they treat them in practice? Saying any Hadeeth from them in their books? following their deeds?
I also had a half-left discussion with @Ali that I cannot meet him todays unless he is chating about the Christianity! Can any body else help if he has similar ideas like @Ali?
About going to shrines being Shirk or not
 
i would argue that overly revering graves/shrines is to be avoided as per the hadith of Noah's idols, i wouldn't go so far as to say that it's shirk.
 
Once I read in a Hadeeth about how worshiping the idols were originated.
 
(at least, not shirk per se. if you do any form of worship at a grave/shrine knowing that God has clearly commanded such should only be done to Him, that's shirk.)
 
8:44 PM
It was like that some pious believers were among their people, people used to worship God next to them, then they died gradually and people were so upset for that
so they build some sculptures of them and were again worshiping the unique God next to their sculptures
then ages pasts and their children who used to seeing their fathers worshiping God next to those sculptures misunderstood the point and started worshiping the idols
 
@owari such a thing is shirk, and in the Quran it says that the Qureish used to do this to get closer to Allah, but Allah does not accept such a thing
 
I know that's Shirk
Certainly worshiping anyone beside Allah is Shirk @AlUmmat
My point is that we are not doing such at the shrines
 
the whole levelling of the graves command makes perfect sense in that light; not because it's shirk per se, but because it can lead to it.
 
I want to know those who claim we are committing Shirk do care to ask why we do such and how or they just guess like those children of the believers guessed from the appearance of what their fathers were doing?
leveling the grave how can be related to sculptures and idols?
They are like no other living thing
idols were in the form of living things
weren't they?
 
the form doesn't matter.
what matters is that the people revere them to the point of worship
even if the intentions were pure to begin, intentions don't always last across generations.
 
8:49 PM
building the scuptures is forbidden but buiding a bed is not, so the form must matter
point of worshiping whom?
 
@owari anything or anyone that's not God.
 
ok we are generations far after our fathers who began to go to the shrines, but we still worship only Allah
Maybe a matter of our Dua books
Maybe a matter of that their fathers never wrote a manual but we have such manuals
 
@owari do you not accept the idea that it's a good idea to avoid anything that may lead to sin?
 
yes I guess
 
is the hadith of God's pasture known from the Shi'a books?
 
8:53 PM
I don't know, what does that say?
 
in summary: what is forbidden is clear, and what is permitted is clear, but between the two there is much that isn't known.
 
I am not sure we have it exactly this way or not but the massage it carries is acceptable
 
even if you don't accept that the prophet commanded the graves to be levelled, extravagance in the reverence of graves/shrines falls into that middle ground. if it goes too far, it encroaches on what is clearly haram (i.e. worshipping anything other than God)
 
Actually we are told move as long as you are certain and never move when you are in doubt
Is that the same thing?
But the shrine thing is not a doubtful issue to us
I already have mentioned two verses concerning the issue, one about the comapanions of the cave and the other about the houses Allah wants His names to be glorified
And e.g. the houses of the prophets are among them
 
i wouldn't go so far as to say that what you do is shirk (despite not agreeing with it personally). God knows best if you worship anything beside him.
 
8:59 PM
We consider the shrines the houses of the holy prophet and even ask for permission before entering them according to Qur'aan
 
but to my knowledge, there are (non-Muslim) cultures that do blatantly worship at such places. i prefer to distance myself from such activity as much as I can; be different from the disbelievers, as it were.
 
Worshiping has a definition, that's easy to judge if something is Shirk or not
Ok, that's a peaceful strategy!
But another point is talking with the death people
we had discussed it in some questions and answer in the website but it seems there still exist ambiguities
 
@owari God knows best whether they can hear us or not, and even if they can whether they can aid us. I prefer not to argue about matters of al-Ghaib without clear evidences.
 
I think that's the main point people consider our Ziyarah as Shirk, as they think only Allah is the omnipresent and the All Hearing and the All seeing
But if we don't know the Qeib how can one claim the opposite is wrong?
Allah is the Wise, but we can also be wise, although not like Allah is wise
 
i pray to al-Sami' al-Qadir. whether the righteous dead/martyrs can hear us or help us may be in question, but it is known that God both can hear us, and has the power to aid us.
 
9:05 PM
for example a famous Hadeeth reads like this: المؤمن ینظر بنور الله
Yes and that "al" prefix limits your worshiping to Allah
but you can ask the hearing person not the al-hearing person something and this is not like assuming him as hearing as Allah!
 
but what benefit would there be thereof? I could ask my roommate for help, but whether or not his help will avail me is still dependent on God's will.
 
@goldPseudo but that He is close to us and hears everything we whisper doesn't mean we are too close to Him as well for Him to accept from us what we ask for then to help us
Those righteous people can be the mediators
You know asking from Allah is one thing and being answered is another thing
not everyone can be considered as مستجاب الدعوة
 
of course. God is not a genie in a bottle, to grant me wishes just because I ask for them.
and it's arrogance to assume that just because i want something means it's good for me.
 
That is our point for going to the Shrines, although actually a very small part of the reality, indeed the crowd may go for this but that's not the reason we are encouraged to go there largely
 
du'a is not about being rewarded, or being answered. it's about humility, and understanding that whatever we want, and whatever we have, is due to God's grace and mercy.
 
9:14 PM
That's a main point, but reward and answer are also consequences
Now let me add a point to your question
 
@owari without clear evidence that God has given me access to such mediation as part of His grace, i see no reason to request such.
 
There is a famous Dua we usually read, in that we say to Allah that O Allah you have make obligatory for us to follow the 14 infallibles, and by that you are showing their position near to you
In your opinion why should Allah order someone to obey someone else completely without any question?
If someone is infallible will He command such?
He commands such about the fathers as well but then limit it in a way that if they tried to make you do what you don't know then stop obeying them
because the parents are not infallibles
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّـهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ
 
@owari in my opinion? as a mercy, and as an ease on the ummah. expecting the laymen to know the ins and outs of Islamic law is a harsh undertaking, especially given the differences of opinion among the schools. By commanding them to obey those in authority, these same laymen are protected from punishment if the authority makes a mistake, and that is a mercy from God. But that's just my personal opinion.
 
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you;
 
@owari there is no obedience in transgression, but that assumes knowledge of the transgression. God forgives that which we were ignorant of, as long as when it becomes known we desist. and seeking knowledge is always recommendable.
 
9:22 PM
but then if the rulers command to do something wrong that would be equal to Allah commanding for the layman to do something wrong, isn't it like that? While Allah has stated that He orders only to goods
إِنَّ اللَّـهَ يَأْمُرُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَالْإِحْسَانِ وَإِيتَاءِ ذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَيَنْهَىٰ عَنِ الْفَحْشَاءِ وَالْمُنكَرِ وَالْبَغْيِ ۚ يَعِظُكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ
 
@owari i shall assume that none of the Infallibles have done anything that clearly and directly contradicts the Qur'an. because if they have, i would have to call the command to obey them to severe question.
 
Even in the Sunni Ahadeeth I have read that if the ruler commanded to do sin do not follow them
@goldPseudo yes, even indirectly and implicitly
and إِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَاءِ ۖ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّـهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know?
 
9:38 PM
@owari So, am I correct in understanding that (according to Shi'a doctrine) this ayah combined with the command to obey God, His messenger, and those in authority indicates that "those in authority" must be infallible?
 
Yes
 
and, by extension, only those who are infallible are to be in authority?
 
Just the same as the holy prophet
yes again
 
okay, just making sure we're on the same page here.
does the hadith that there's no obedience in transgression/sin also exist in Shi'a books?
 
yes, that's like this: لا طاعة لمخلوق فی معصیة الخالق
 
9:42 PM
i assume so, as there is still a (limited) obedience to fallible authority (such as, by your earlier admission, obedience to parents)
 
No obedience for the creature in disobedience of the creator
yes, obeying without any question is only to the infallibles
 
i assume you also accept obedience of a wife to her husband in the same category (i.e. fallible authority)
 
Yes, but that's too much limited, only in two respects, 1. going out of the house, 2. for sexual relations, and nothing more
A man can ask his wife to delay her prayer and come to him instead but if the time left for prayer is short then the wife must disobey that command
 
if i may ask, where do the fallible authorities get their authority from? as i've always considered them as logical extensions of "and those in authority among you".
 
Only from those infallibles. Indeed the main authority is that of God ان الحکم الا لله
then God gives that to his Caliph on Earth which must be infallinle
the infallible Caliph then appoint some rulers like for different cities and etc.
they need not be infallible anymore
 
9:47 PM
afk for a bit; i need to dhuhr.
 
If they do anything wrong the infallible Caliph of Allah should prevent them
Ok, thanls for the info and the discussion
Recall me in your prayer
please
 

« first day (234 days earlier)      last day (4087 days later) »