Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya - 2013-02-10 (page 1 of 2)

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The Truth Seaker

1:01 AM

@AlUmmat congratulations on being moderator.

1:16 AM

@TheTruthSeaker thank you

it isn't really a big deal

I am just now able to help in a different way

Assalamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allah wa barakatuh brothers :)

Please review this meta discussion:

3

Q: The Recommended Form of Quoting Quran

I think it's important that we are able to follow a recommended way to quote from the Quran so that posts here look and feel coherent together, and hopefully all maintain a high standard. It also means we can have a place to point people when they are new to the way we do things. There are also...

discussion quran quote

And the suggestion I left:

0

A: The Recommended Form of Quoting Quran

This is a sample of the form I suggest: إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا Sahih International Translation Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do s...

@TamerShlash Wa Alaikum salam wa rahmatu Allah wa barakatuh

@TamerShlash it sounds good, but why give the Translation name, if the link to it says what the translation is?

4 hours later…

5:54 AM

@owari i had been a practicing Shia and dont tell me what the intentions were. I even have interview transcripts of people who goto these shrines at the shrine itself and they clearly say they goto ASK the Imams to get their needs fulfilled, and that is what Ya Ali *****" \ Mushkil Kusha Ali is all about!

@owari brother please quote full Ayats ... and go back to Allah and his messenger if you find differences

@owari also i had made very clear statement that even entering those shrines with the intention of devotion to the internal obj is Shirk. And there is atmost need to demolish such illegal shrines

1 hour later…

7:15 AM

1

Q: Do jews find it blasphemy to be judged by religious laws of the pagan country they live in

Does being judged by non judaic religious law in a non judaic , pagan country considered to fall into the category of Shituff (Associating partners with God) . As jews belive that only God has the power to frame Laws and accepting or participating in the law system of pagan religious laws is like...

avodah-zarah politics-government

@Caleb why jesus refused to be judged by the courts he did not deem fit

@El'endiaStarman hii how are you doing ? Hope you are learning well here!

5 hours later…

12:03 PM

@Ali, no I do not agree, you are judging us through your own Ahadeeth. When we don't agree on their authenticity how can you ever claim what we do is Shirk?

Let me again express that we do not worship anyone but Allah, no prophet or Imam to us is like Allah, the God, or a lowest level god.

Yes, I do say Ya Ali, I ask him for help personally, just like I may ask the moderators here to review a post, that's not anything like Shirk

I know your point is that those buried in the Shrines are dead and considering them, even the martyrs among them, as aware of us is coining to them the attributes of Allah so is Shirk, but I just say you are wrong, they can be aware of us without attributing to them any Shirk. Allah is such by Himself, they if are such are given the quality by Allah

You have been once a Shia, but I am still a Shia, so please do not try to induce in my brain like I am intended such but you know and I don't know!

no brother when Quran says 72:18 Do not invoke anyone except ALLAH then why you are committing this serious abomination?

Just playing with words?

Like what the satan did was did taweel of Allah's word?

and refused to Bow down to Adam?

hundred of times I repeated we ask them like we ask the others or you ask a physicians

He needed to LITERALLY follow the command because it was a command

and commands need to be taken literally

12:13 PM

both literally and hidden meanings are intended in Qur'aan, I do not deny any of them

and quran 72:18 exactly prohibits that type of asking

which you do

so you don't ask your parents due to that verse anything?

that was already discussed in the question

have a look intoit

And my answer to that was also clear there!

i just can understand why you come up with such silly argument

12:15 PM

your point was that they are not aware of us

silly is not very polite ;)

Hazrat Ali RA himself answers this question in Letter 31 as an advice to his sons: http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter31.htm#letter31

Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

To me there is nothing ambigious

So what?

So by asking help you are even going against the teachings of the Imam

so does Haz Ali mean that you should not goto Doctor?

Imam Ali himself was asking the holy prophet in several situation, so maybe he is implying differently and you are only digging the appearance of his deep meaning

so does Haz Ali mean that you should not goto Doctor?

12:18 PM

bring to me an explicit example for example

no

he has clearly made a statement

>Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power

why don't you think we are asking them like we ask doctors?

Why do you think Allah has ordered us to love Ahlul Bayt?

What's the wisdom in that?

Its not about me thinking but clear prohibition in texts

No, there are several implicit preassumptions in that saying

Love is obligatory

12:21 PM

let me bring you a story

Can you give one example of the Imams ever invoking "Ya Ali ****"

Even they considered it to be Shirk Akbar

a man was sitting in the mosque when the prophet peace be upon him and his household saw him praying

he was asking Allah to put his needs in noone but Himself

And i wont accept a story against Quran

The holy prophet went closer to him, smiled and asked him: do you if your request is accepted you will die immediately?

He said why?

the holy prophet answered because Dunya is place of need and Allah has defined the need of His creatures in His other creatures

So we should ask Allah but Allah will do us the favour through His other creatures

And Ahlul Bayt are the best of them

Sending peace to the holy prophet and his household is the main rout to the blessings of Allah

What Shirk is in that?

Do we preserve a share for them Beside Allah? NO

Do we seek Allah's blessing through them? yes

Imam asking Ya Ali? Yes we do have such supplications!

یا محمد یا علی یا علی یا محمد اکفیانی فانکما کافیان وانصرانی فانکما ناصران

and that's not Shirk

I just give you a peice of advice, do not call anything that you think is wrong easily as Shirk, that's a great blame and if you were wrong you may find no way to remedy your sin, that all, being cautiousness

When ALLAH ordered satan to bow down , this is what he did he did not take it literally rather he tried to do a taweel and find meanings which suite his own desire.

12:31 PM

The point you are talking about is more than obvious to even ask about. Tell me what's the difference between asking from a physician and an Imam

"Ya ALI\Umar\Gous madad " with devotion is definitely Shirk Al Akbar and in this age also a great fitna which needs to be create awareness against

You are only repeating what has been settled in your mind

at least change your wording slightly

that definitely is not definitely at all to me, so express your idea differently

And yes we dont sit at home and ask "Ya Doctor Madad", even this is shirk, As we are giving doctor an attribute of Allah of "Hearing everything\All hearing". The correct workflow would be to goto doctor who is living let doctor diagnose disease and suggest medications.

Ok, very well now we reached the point I already told you, your problem is just giving attributions of Allah to other than Allah, not asking them and things like that

And again let me say any of us who has any good attribution we are having that given to us from Allah, not ourselves

and the Ahlul Bayt were the best of people who were thanking Allah for His blessings to them

Ofcourse no one denies and all muslims send blessings on them, even in that we ask Allah alone .. Allahumma...

12:36 PM

Certainly Ahlul Bayt do not know everything, cannot see everything, cannot hear everything, but what if Allah has allowed them to see a lot more than you and me, to hear a lot more than we hear and to know a lot more?

Can you say if tey know better than us that ould be Shirk?

and what you are advocating is Ya ali////

This is what you are currently doing

You know better than me what I am asking from whom?

If that be the case it would have been cleared in the Quran itself

Have you read Dua Tawassul

Show me in Qur'aan how to pray Allah, the number of Rak'ah in Subh and Dhuhur prayings for example

The point here is Quran has made explicit prohibition!

if Quran says "do not invoke "".. JUST DONOT INVOKE

12:40 PM

No it has not! If that's prohibited then going to a physician should also be forbidden, is it?

What do you mean by invoking?

Can you say that in Arabic please?

no going to physician is not invoking physician!!

1 min ago, by owari

What do you mean by invoking?

I know you wont accept the truth because all you ayatullahs are also covered in this shirk as akbar and you wont like to see this

I am coming here from a Math background, I chose my religion after seeking for truth, I was going to become Sunni several years ago

You know almost nothing about me

so you were not born shia?

12:43 PM

Yes I was, but not any religious or any how practicing

almost not caring about religion at all

I have been also grown in being religious trough several doubts all resolved for me

but you were! even i was initially non practicing shia then practicing shia and then ...

Now what I believe in, thanks Allah, is so rigorous in the sense of math that there is no place for me to doubt in them

Sorry i would not fit my religion in the narrow and illogical confines of Math

Math is by no means narrow if you go trough it

for me math as i understand could be wrong but my religion cant! thats the differfence

12:46 PM

Also philosophy

Qur'aan several times address working with برهان (reasoning) and using our intellectual powers

Ya

So I do not accept anything without a rigorous proof, in the bases I mean

and not math powr!

Math power here means logic and methods, not the definitions and integrations and other tools

For example I went into Set theory and very well understood the concept of infinity

That helped me a lot how to better understand Allah

You better prove this to @theorem hed be interested in that

and @Caleb would argue that

12:49 PM

I proved for him the uniqueness of God but he didn't care, maybe to him it was not acceptable

and @El'endiaStarman would appriciate it!!

now would you please tell me what do you mean by invoking? please say the Arabic tanslation as well

and he too was from math background

that proof is available somewhere in this present chat room, you can also take a look at it to better feel what I am talking about when say math

Sorry i wont involve the inferior tool of math as humans understand in fundamentals of my religion

I cringe qiyaas too when clear texts are availaible

12:54 PM

Qiyas is forbiden at least in Fiqh, according to Ahlul Bayt

And may i know what motivated you to become sunni and you deferred?

That's a famous debate between Imam Sadiq peace be upon him and Abu Hanife if my mind could help that addresses this issue with some examples

and you are doing Qiyaas!

Yes, I started to read about Sufism, the life story of their greatest men, and thought that their Karamah is a sign of them being acceptable by Allah, so thought it should be the right path as most of them were Sunni

Allah's messenger pbuh never used these kind of "Math"\philosophical\rhetorical techniques

12:56 PM

Qiyas in Fiqh is forbidden

Otherwise it by itself is a math tool

Oh yes Allah has done that

For example He uses برهان الخلف to prove some arguments in His book

He also use some philosophical arguments

They are just categorizable under intellectual reasonings in Qur'aan

19 mins ago, by owari

1 min ago, by owari

What do you mean by invoking?

Do you know what Dua means?

برهان خلف in Qur'aan: if the book was from anyone other than Allah it was full of contradictions / if there were more than one god, there was quite a mess ...

Asalam Alaikum

و علیکم السلام

Qiyas in Fiqh isn't math

My point is that in Fiqh that is forbidden!

I know Sunni brothers think differently

well I am not sunni, but Qiyas is used in Ijma' which is one of the sources of Shariah

1:10 PM

For example let me ask you something, murduring is worse or Zina?

Qiyas is used to analyze

Not in sources for Shia though

@owari oh ok

so in Shia Qiyas is measuring, what the Arabic word actually mean?

عقل is its substitute in Shia, عقل instead of قیاس

they are different

can explain further what عقل does?

1:13 PM

it is using logic instead of comparing two rules and interpolating/extrapolating a new rule based on them

interesting

I mean no offense, but is it similar to what the Mu'tazlia do, or totally different?

What do they do?

they look at a thing and if it is not acceptable, or it doesn't make sense to them, they do not accept it, but when it is sensible they accept it

see more abou the Mu'tazlia

here:

() is an Islamic school of theology based on reason and rational thought that flourished in the cities of Basra and Baghdad, both in present-day Iraq, during the 8th–10th centuries. The adherents of the Mu'tazili school are best known for their having asserted that, because of the perfect unity and eternal nature of Allah, the Qur'an must therefore have been created, as it could not be co-eternal with God. From this premise, the Mu'tazili school of Kalam proceeded to posit that the injunctions of God are accessible to rational thought and inquiry: because knowledge is derived from rea...

about Qiyas that we do not believe in see this conservation between Imam Sadiq and Abu Hanife:

فَقَالَ أَبُو حَنِيفَةَ لَيْسَ لِي عِلْمٌ بِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ إِنَّمَا أَنَا صَاحِبُ قِيَاسٍ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ فَانْظُرْ فِي قِيَاسِكَ إِنْ كُنْتَ مُقِيساً أَيُّمَا أَعْظَمُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ الْقَتْلُ أَوِ الزِّنَا؟ قَالَ بَلِ الْقَتْلُ قَالَ فَكَيْفَ رَضِيَ فِي الْقَتْلِ بِشَاهِدَيْنِ وَ لَمْ يَرْضَ فِي الزِّنَا إِلَّا بِأَرْبَعَةٍ؟ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ الصَّلَاةُ أَفْضَلُ أَمِ الصِّيَامُ؟

قَالَ بَلِ الصَّلَاةُ أَفْضَلُ قَالَ ع فَيَجِبُ عَلَى قِيَاسِ قَوْلِكَ عَلَى الْحَائِضِ قَضَاءُ مَا فَاتَهَا مِنَ الصَّلَاةِ فِي حَالِ حَيْضِهَا دُونَ الصِّيَامِ وَ قَدْ أَوْجَبَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى عَلَيْهَا قَضَاءَ الصَّوْمِ دُونَ الصَّلَاةِ قَالَ لَهُ ع الْبَوْلُ أَقْذَرُ أَمِ الْمَنِيُّ؟ قَالَ الْبَوْلُ أَقْذَرُ قَالَ ع يَجِبُ عَلَى قِيَاسِكَ أَنْ يَجِبَ الْغُسْلُ مِنَ الْبَوْلِ دُونَ الْمَنِيِّ- وَ قَدْ أَوْجَبَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى الْغُسْلَ مِنَ الْمَنِيِّ دُونَ الْبَوْل‏

Actually Aql is only one of the four sources for Shia Fiqh: قرآن، حدیث (سنت)، اجماع و عقل

@owari I thought so

1:24 PM

the only difference between Shia and Sunni in this regard is that عقل/قیاس subtitution

@owari can you give me a example of عقل in action?

I do not know, let me see if I can find any

ok

I found a long wikipage on the subject: wikifeqh.ir/%D8%B9%D9%82%D9%84

It seems that it is a vast area to discuss about, but at least one thing is clear

Aql is in some senses like وجدان which is based on Fitrah, it can identify if something is forbidden or allowed

also a more explicit example can be around مکاسب

What is Riba and what is not, some of the rules for such trades are from Aql

It understands the spirit of Riba and then studies each trade and conclude if it is Riba or is allowed

@owari i see

1:49 PM

I should leave

والسلام for now

@owari Wa Alaikum salam

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Uh...I think you got the halves of that statement mixed up. I think you mean that when the Mu'tazlia look at something and it doesn't make sense to them, then they don't accept it and likewise, when it is sensible, they do accept it.

@El'endiaStarman yep, I got it mixed up, I'll edit it

@El'endiaStarman thanks for noticing it

hope no one else got confused

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat You're welcome. :)

I saw Qiyas mentioned a lot. What are they?

@El'endiaStarman Qiyas is the process of deductive analogy, it is used to derive a new ruling where needed

Aql is the substitute to that in Shia Fiqh (from what I understand)

El'endia Starman

1:57 PM

So they are different processes?

@El'endiaStarman Qiyas analyzes the Quran and sunnah to derive a ruling, according to the shia Qiyas is like (what is worse killing or adultery?) Aql uses logic to get to a ruling (if I am not mistaken), so yes it is a different process

El'endia Starman

@owari I saw your attempt at a math proof by isomorphism. Your understanding of isomorphism was pretty much spot on, but something went horribly wrong when you tried to apply it to a Trinitarian God. I'm still not sure what, but I think it was that you failed to show that the members of the Trinity are actually isomorphic to each other, and even if you did, that still wouldn't prove that they are actually the same being.

...! Hey, is this already a question on the site? "What Islamic texts do the Sunni and Shia branches have in common?"

@El'endiaStarman I don't think so, we usually focus questions on differences

it would be a great question for the site

there is also this question if you would like to look at it

2

Q: How Aql is different from Qiyas?

In Usool-al-Fiqh Shia uses Aql or intellect as a source of legislation as mentioned in this answer- http://islam.stackexchange.com/a/345/53 And the Sunni uses Qiyas or analogy in Fiqh. In my understanding, both are related with reasoning. How do they differ?

just found it

@El'endiaStarman would you like to ask it?

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Oh yes! I will! :P

go right ahead :)

El'endia Starman

2:15 PM

0

Q: What Islamic texts do the Sunni and Shia branches have in common?

Exactly as the title says. I figure that both branches would have the Qur'an in common, but I also recently learned that there are at least some Fiqhs that are Shia-only, and that implies at least some Fiqhs that are Sunni-only. So, what Islamic texts do the Sunni and Shia branches share? Which o...

Ding.

it is a very good question, I must say again :)

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Thanks. ^_^

From the Christian side, pretty much the only thing that all three major branches (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) have in common is the Bible, and the Catholic/Orthodox Bible also includes the Deuterocanon, which the Protestants don't have because they believe that it's not as authoritative as the rest of the Bible.

@El'endiaStarman interesting

do christians believe that the book of Barnabas is part of the Bible? I mean I heard it was, but don't see it in any bible that I see

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Yeah. Sunnis and Shias seem to have more in common than Catholics/Orthodox and Protestants.

@AlUmmat I just looked it up on Wikipedia, and the earliest mention of it dates from the 1600s. So, no, it's definitely not part of the Bible. The Bible was codified in the 400s.

2:30 PM

@El'endiaStarman ok

i think some canons accepted the Epistle of Barnabas, but afaik never the Gospel of Barnabas.

oop. not quite.

from wikipedia: "These five writings attributed to the Apostolic Fathers [including the Epistle of Barnabas] are not currently considered canonical in any Biblical tradition, though they are more highly regarded by some more than others. Nonetheless, their early authorship and inclusion in ancient Biblical codices, as well as their acceptance to varying degrees by various early authorities, requires them to be treated as foundational literature for Christianity as a whole."

the EoB is a completely different text than the GoB though.

El'endia Starman

I was a bit off. The Old Testament as used by Christians was pretty much set in stone in the fourth century. The Orthodox canon also includes a few more books than the Catholic canon. Of special note, however, is that all three branches have the same New Testament. Source.

@El'endiaStarman so why do some sects of christianity have more or less books in their bible? I mean lets say in ten more years, would it be possible that the bible will have less books?

or edited again

in other words, what I am trying to ask is, how can it be acceptable that the Bible has different number of Books?

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat Nope, pretty much impossible for the Bible itself to have fewer books from here on (really, ever since the fourth century). The Protestant branch includes in the Old Testament only those books that have surviving Hebrew manuscripts. The Catholic branch includes some more that survive in a later Greek translation (the Septuagint), and the Orthodox branch includes a few more.

@El'endiaStarman so all the christians believe in these books?

I mean christian sects

the major ones that is

El'endia Starman

2:42 PM

@AlUmmat Well, define "Christian" first and then I can give you a real answer. - Ah, okay, the major branches.

The Protestant branch considers the additional books (what they call the Apocrypha) to be non-authoritative.

@El'endiaStarman why is that?

El'endia Starman

@AlUmmat We (C.SE) have a question about that. ^_^

And now I gotta head out for church. Talk to you all later!

@El'endiaStarman ok :)

3:09 PM

assalaamalikum

@Ali Wa Alaikum salam

Hi @El'endiaStarman how are you ? Hope you are learning well here?

3 hours later…

6:35 PM

5

Q: Is it possible to interpret Surat An-Nisā':157 as allowing that Jesus was crucified?

In Islam, the common understanding is that Christ Jesus was never killed nor was he crucified; this understanding is quite reasonable given that God says وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ و...

quran tafseer christianity jesus

this has actually brought up some interesting answers.

3 hours later…

9:23 PM

سلام علیکم

@El'endiaStarman actually the proof for uniqueness of God is not based on isomorphisms, see for example chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8024667#8024667 and chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8024834#8024834 and chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/3819?m=8024892#8024892 and chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/3819?m=8024912#8024912 and the rest

That argument based on isomorphisms was only to address why God, Jesus and the holy spirit cannot be one being, indeed the equality relation can never hold between them, they are completely different beings for their intrinsic differences

El'endia Starman

@owari Well, what do you mean by "one being"?

one existence, what I have understood from the trinity

One being with three different appearances

El'endia Starman

Okay, well, we (Trinitarian Christians) do believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three wholly distinct Persons. We also do believe that they are all one nature. That is, they are all God.

Then see the proof for uniqueness of god, no more than one god is logically possible

El'endia Starman

@owari That's called Modalism (or Sabellianism) and was rejected as a heresy by the early church as early as the fourth century.

9:30 PM

Also I believe different Christians believe differently

El'endia Starman

@owari Well, yes. Why else would we have an entire site devoted to Christianity?

Did you read the proof for uniqueness of god as cited by the links above?

It only preassume that a god by definition is a Perfect being

El'endia Starman

@owari If I have the right "proof" in mind, your argument relies on the assumption that if there were two gods, they could act against each other. Is that the one you had in mind?

yes

you see a problem with that?

El'endia Starman

I do. The Persons of the Trinity want nothing but the best for each other. It's pretty much impossible for them to work against either of the other two.

9:33 PM

Let me bring you an example then

Suppose you are walking in a garden, well ordered and decorated

You ask how many gardener work on it? they tell you a great number of them

You say how is it then possible for the garden to have such an overall order?

You would be answer only this way, they work under a same plan

if three gods exist together, they will not love each other unless another higher god define that between them

Because you can always ask, why loving each other and coordinating, why not aiming differently if they are independent

independent wills

Do they need each other to exist?

Can any of them tease another?

Can any of them survive without the others?

El'endia Starman

@owari Can a man survive without his heart? (By heart I mean emotions and the like.)

no!

they are parts of our beings

we need all of our parts to be complete

El'endia Starman

Hmmm. I have a question: do people (Muslims) who go to (your) heaven have bodies? Or are they spirits?

have bodies as well

even after death before the Day we will have bodies

El'endia Starman

Okay, so the body is also necessary for a man to survive/exist.

9:42 PM

the bodies that we see in dreams of the death person is of that type

we have many needs, different needs and different means to meet them

why do you ask these?

El'endia Starman

Because I'm actually not sure if the three Persons of the Trinity can survive without the others. My gut feeling is that one can survive without the others, but it would be like a sort of Hell for them. That is, they can live without the others, but they can almost not be called living because they're missing something so important to them.

In the same way, I do believe that a man can survive without his heart, but he would be living a dull life that is almost a non-life.

don't you believe that a god must be needless?

El'endia Starman

@owari Yes. Think about it this way though: you don't need any other humans in your life. Really, you don't. Food, water, a shelter...that's all you really need. Yet, what kind of a life would that be? A pathetic life. (Apologies to any hermits who may be ironically visiting this room.)

then there is a need in having someone in our lives, that's a psychological need compared to all the bodily need that you counted. Human indeed is a multi-aspect being with multi-aspect needs

El'endia Starman

@owari But it is still possible to live from birth to death without any contact with another human, supposing a machine took care of you in your earliest years.

9:56 PM

some needs are vital in keeping the bodies living, some are vital in keeping the souls living (somewhat a metaphor, not a very precise saying), but your measure sysyem is only body as you talk about birth and death and by that you mean our bodies. other needs also exist. do you agree a god to be bodily needlless but anyway has some needs?

by bodily about the gods I am still using metaphor

In our definition of god we say a god should be completely needless, and that requires for the God to only be an abstract concept

never as composite

El'endia Starman

Okay, so, my point is that it's technically possible for a human to live and satisfy only their bodily needs. However, they are only living in the technical sense; they are not truly or fully living. The Persons of the Trinity are in a similar situation. Technically, they do not need each other to exist, but to be separated from the others would be unbearable agony.

He should have no part otherwise He would need His parts and this implies Him being in Need not Needless

El'endia Starman

Well, another aspect of this is that God is all three Persons of the Trinity together. God is truly needless in that way.

@El'endiaStarman the three persons of the trinity thus none are perfect and according to Islam none can be a true god

El'endia Starman

Three gods is tritheism. Christianity is monotheism.

10:01 PM

just for the sake of proposing arguments that i don't agree with in any way, i wonder if the Arabic for "Say not three: Desist" could be viably interpreted as refusing modalism, yet permitting trinitarianism.

El'endia Starman

@goldPseudo ...HUH. That's an interesting idea.

@El'endiaStarman well, then the unique god still has parts and that unique god will again need all its parts to remain perfect, again being in need. the only way is to deny any of the three being god, instead believing in a god above all of them and then the three can be the closest beings to the unique Needless god

El'endia Starman

@owari I get what you're saying, and at this point, I don't think we're going to get any further in our arguments. We have different baseline assumptions, and thus we come to different conclusions.

@El'endiaStarman ok, thanks for your time ;)

El'endia Starman

If I may, I will start a different discussion that is related but distinct to the one we just had.

10:05 PM

@El'endiaStarman sure, I'll be glad

El'endia Starman

Alright. The question is this: why did Allah create the universe?

We have discussed that in the Islam.SE, let me find that for you

@El'endiaStarman probably not viable, if only because modalism was condemned by the Church about three centuries before Muhammad arrived. it seems unlikely that there would've been any significant modalist population in seventh century Arabia to warrant a direct refutation.

but an interesting train of thought nonetheless.

then again, there are a lot of people who still make the mistake.

El'endia Starman

@goldPseudo I was one of those, actually. I thought I had the mystery of the Trinity figured out, and then I found out that it was modalism and had been condemned almost two millennia before I was born...

@El'endiaStarman see if islam.stackexchange.com/a/5907/584 and islam.stackexchange.com/a/2604/584 suffice for you

But if you want in short let me put that this way

Allah never selects for what to create, he is the Just so He never choose, he creates whatever creatble in the time and conditions that is creatable

The angels have only intellectual power, the animals have only desires, the humans and the Jinns have both.

El'endia Starman

10:12 PM

(Who are the Jinns?)

Dunya is required to be created for only the humans and the Jinns, but many other creatures can also be created and they are as they could be created

You don't know the Jinnes?

Certainly you should know them they appeared to people in the Kingdom of Solomon

peace be upon him

El'endia Starman

I probably know them by a different name.

@El'endiaStarman a created race (from smokeless fire) that lives, unseen, in parallel with humans. they, like us, are sapient, and Islam teaches that Iblis (= Satan) was a Jinn rather than a fallen angel.

Indeed Jin is an arabic word which means somewhat covered

Islamic tradition considers the angels to be devoid of free will and literally incapable of rebelling against God's authority. Humans and Jinn have free will.

10:15 PM

Here Jinns are called Jinnes as they are nonvisible

@goldPseudo, AFAIK the angels have also free will

El'endia Starman

So have all Jinns rebelled against God?

but they simply don't as they have no desire

(etymologically, that's where the word "Genie" comes from)

@El'endiaStarman No some are believers and some non believers, just like humans

@goldPseudo We have even a fallen angel named phetrus, although he has been forgiven around 1200 years ago

@goldPseudo, even animals have free will, although somewhat more limited than ours, and they decide mainly through their desires (غریزه and شهوة)

yeah, i'm not sure how much of my understanding on this issue stems from actual Islamic basis, and how much of it is just Arabic tradition and/or superstition.

it's not a field i've put any significant study into.

El'endia Starman

10:22 PM

@goldPseudo Ha, I'll tell you that a few times in the past couple of days, I've started to think something like "Christians don't do that" and then realize that yes, most of them do do that.

@goldPseudo, you can watch the documentary movies on the wilderness and see how a lion choose among the animals to hunt, it is not forced to hunt something special, that's the free will, although a limited freedom, more limited than ours

As far as I know, the jinn were known in Arabic folklore well before the time of Muhammad. The Qur'an itself is sparse on the details.

From the Qur'an, we clearly know they exist, and that Iblis was one, and that they're among us unseen. Also Solomon was granted control over them to help build the Temple.

even the plants have sort of free will

and this is somewhat difficult for me to say, but as far as I have understood even what we know as not-living is indeed alive and has some sort of free will

that includes the stones, and any other substance

El'endia Starman

...any Star Wars fans here?

that depends: define "Star Wars"... :p

El'endia Starman

10:32 PM

Well, at the very least, the original trilogy.

@El'endiaStarman does it have anything to do with Islam?

i'm no fanboy, but i do enjoy the series.

@owari: chat doesn't have to be on topic :)

yes, just eager to know where the discussion is going to!

El'endia Starman

Well, it's just that your comment reminded me of a particular scene...

> Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

10:39 PM

yeah, that's a much nicer description than "It's midichlorians."

I'm not sure what does this excerpt means by "Luminous beings are we" but that's what I think about the matter, physically what it is.

El'endia Starman

@goldPseudo Well, "it's midichlorians" actually says what is creating the Force.

@owari Well, you mentioned that even rocks have a teensy bit of free will. That's what brought to mind the idea of the Force permeating everything, even non-living rocks.

About the animals that we have in Qur'aan, but about the stones and etc that we have in Hadeeth.

For example the reason why we puton Onyx finger ring

first time here guys. Esselamun Alejkum

El'endia Starman

@IceD Welcome!

And yes, a Christian was the first to welcome a new person to the main Islam chat room. :P

10:47 PM

what makes it different than the other stones is that it was the first stone that confessed in the uniquness of Allah, the prophethood of the holy prophet, and the Wilayah of Imam Ali, according to Shia Hadeeth ;)

@IceD و علیکم السلام

so why so much trouble between Shia

and Sunni ? In my country there is no difference between those 2 since we are all one

@IceD union is the best thing that we need now!

And we live in peace here too, thanks to Allah

but the debate should always exist as logically two contradicting rights cannot coexist!

@IceD If you want a vast oversimplification, it's all politics. Politics can be very polarizing (especially if they're left unchecked for fourteen hundred years).

@goldPseudo Agreed

El'endia Starman

@goldPseudo Yeah. Same thing has happened in Christianity, and taken to a ridiculous degree in the Protestant branch. Several ten thousand denominations that all believe something slightly different.

10:51 PM

@El'endiaStarman, so what do you think about the reason why God created the universe? All the heaven and hell

imagine the American Civil War, except longer and with clear religious proof that God is in fact on your side (on both sides).

@owari Muhammed a.s.?

@IceD what's your point, I didn't get that!

El'endia Starman

@owari Personally? I believe that He (as a Trinity) had relationships amongst the members of Himself and a desire to experience more relationships, so He created the universe with angels and humans. The Shorter Westminster Catechism has this:

> Q: What is man's chief end?

> A: Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

reason why God created the universe?
It is written somewhere that Muhammed was the reason why Universe was created.

10:57 PM

@IceD, yes he is but that needs some explanation!

To me he is more the initial condition of this universe, so the first cause --in the Causality chain-- after Allah the creator, so he is the through of any blessing of Allah that we and any other thing receivehave no strong proof for that though, only some witnesses from Qur'aan and Hadeeth

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