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11:02 AM
Well, you could go back a bit further and watch The Sweeney :)
And there's always The Bill as well
I'm not very familiar with those.
The Bill is a very long running Series (~15 years)
The Sweeny was a 70's cop shop, might be to your liking - more action
My father definitely has trouble with older BBC productions that are filmed in the stage style. He has a terrible time ignoring the obvious sound-stage-ness of early Doctor Who.
My mother and I, on the other hand, cannot get enough of the Second Doctor successfully hiding behind sheets of bubble wrap.
11:06 AM
Where the sets shake and the music is from two guys in a booth
I can still reduce my mother to hysterical tears by mentioning the Time Lord computer interface from War Games.
I assume you know Space: 1999 and Blake's 7 ?
Oooo just remembered, another cop series - Sapphire and Steel
That's worth trying
I was actually expounding on the virtues of Sapphire and Steel last night in this very chat.
I suppose it's technically a cop show. Ish.
I'm aware of Space: 1999 but haven't tried it yet.
Been trying to get into Blake's 7 because I've heard great things, but have yet to make it through the pilot.
11:10 AM
Time cop sci fi stuff; it's great
I don't really consider them police. More like fixers.
And Red Dwarf o' course, rah :)
Of course!
@BESW True, true :)
There's an Ace Rimmer reference up in the chat from earlier today, too.
(What a guy.)
I also enjoyed Primeval far more than I probably should have.
The new spinoff isn't nearly silly enough.
11:19 AM
The New Red Dwarf series (X) is pretty good so far (I'm behind) Episodes 1 and 2 were pretty good, 3 was hrmmm
Avoid series 9 like the plague however
@Rob Well, objectively most of the old Red Dwarf stuff was really kinda mediocre in the main plots. It was the B plots and random skits that made it work.
Oooo Primeval looks interesting
And new Red Dwarf is the same.
@Rob It is so stupid. I love it, but not because I think it's good.
So much TV to watch and books to read...
The visual design for the anomalies is quite brilliant, and I give Primeval mad props for avoiding indulging in T-Rexes and velociraptors right away, in favor of dodos and Thylacosmiluses.
But they keep starting up major plot arcs and then hand-waving them away. It gets annoying to see them waste so many potentially interesting ideas.
Also, by the time they get through with Helen Cutter's motives they've made The Claw look like a three-dimensional villain.
Which is a darn shame because --again-- so much potential was wasted.
11:29 AM
I'll have to give it a whirl; when we finish our run on New Tricks 1 1/2 series to go!
Primeval is the kind of show I either watch in the background while I'm working, or that I'll pull up an IM chat with a friend and constantly pause it to say, "Okay, get a load of THIS."
Plenty of WTF then?
I think so.
Some of the actors are giving it their best, and I appreciate that.
But the SFX are all over the board, usually poor, and the scripts tend to be very rough.
But you know, they have no real pretentions to being anything more than they are, and I respect that. Every episode of the first season has at least one Wilhelm Scream.
11:52 AM
@Rob Do you think the question you commented as "related" is similar enough to warrant a vote of "close for duplication"?
The question is phrased a little more broadly, but the answers are all going to the same.
Yeah, I was wondering that; I was reading the other question & answers to see; they look pretty damn similar really.
I'm personally curious about where Dwarves got their Scottish/Irish hybrid brogue.
Now that's a good question :)
I kind of suspect Tolkien for that too, as all his races were fairly obvious derived from British (and occasionally European) stereotypes.
Not sure if he ever accented people...
11:56 AM
No, but he used distinct linguistic patterning.
All the words were spelt 'properly,' but word order, word choice, phrasing, all indicate that he had strong ideas about real-world regional parallels for his races.
Apparently (according to one source) "Tolkien said in an interview that the Dwarves reminded him of the Jews and so their language was actually Semitic by inspiration."
Hmmm. You know, I did read that once.
It's been ten years since I did much indepth study of his works.
Can't find the source though
I'm thinking that question is close enough to be a duplicate
Yeah, I voted to close it based on the "answers will be the same" criteria.
I've never done that before; trying to find the button of power...
aha, gottit
Woooo, a feeling of quasi-mod like power
12:01 PM
I believe that's a 500-rep power.
Personally I just want to get rep 9000, after that it's all OVER 9000!!!
Yes, yes.
Sorry; just had to link :)
12:04 PM
I'm not sure if the dwarven accent thing is really cogent to rpg.se, as accents aren't usually made explicit in tabletop RPGs.
Hmmm, it can be part of making characters distinctive; I've certainly used accents and mannerisms for both characters and NPC's to make them memorable. Like the exceedingly dry monotone of my Shadowrun troll bountyhunter/trainspotter
Certainly, but I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it in a way that can actually provide helpful answers rather than trivia.
(My dwarves are Russian Imperialists and Communists, depending on clan and setting.)
Oh nice; I like that - would rather fit them well I think!
It does.
Shake the tropes up!
12:08 PM
They get to keep the enormous beards, heavy drinking, and penchant for staying indoors during harsh winters.
I suppose Scandinavian could also work - Viking dwarves...
And they also get either Imperialist traditions and hierarchies or a strong "needs of the many" community.
Yarp; definately fits their profile
I may steal that idea sometime, if you don't mind :)
(And I can do a better Bad Russian Accent than I can a Bad Brogue.)
No problem. I'm rather proud of it.
For what it's worth, I also see D&D halflings as being kind of gypsies (strong families but no homeland, constantly on the move; I like to give them houseboats) and gnomes as being more hobbit-like (keeping out of sight, happy minding their own business, but highly creative and resourceful in their own small ways).
12:21 PM
That's a nice association; hmmmm, if I ever get my PF campaign rolling again I'll have to think about that
I may turn the goblins into a communist society
Goblins always seemed too self-interested to buy into that.
But a good hard tweak could make it work.
Maybe more like the Chinese communist model...
Let's see. Goblins are traditionally parasites: they live on the edges of society, stealing and pillaging instead of doing their own hunting and farming.
12:24 PM
Mongols... vikings
Hmmmm Mongol goblins
Get too many goblins in one place, and the local supplies run out without the goblins knowing how (or wanting) to replenish them.
Mongols could definitely work. A very strong internal system.
I like the idea of Mongol goblins, wolves instead of horses; stealing tech from other societies (like the Mongols did to the Chinese) Strong leadership dynamic
Yassa (alternatively: Yasa, Yasaq, Jazag, Zasag, Mongolian: Их засаг, Yehe Zasag) was a secret written code of law created by Genghis Khan. It was the principal law under the Mongol Empire even though no copies were made available. Most of this law was supervised by Genghis Khan himself and his stepbrother Shihihutag who was then high judge (in Mongolian: улсын их заргач) of Mongol Empire. Genghis Khan appointed his harshest son Chagatai (later Chagatai Khan) to oversee the execution of it. It is unclear if it was not made secret once generally not followed. The original Yassa seems to h...
OooOO cheers!
You could do some really interesting worldbuilding around some of those laws.
"Forbidden, under death penalty, to pillage the enemy before the general commanding gives permission; but after this permission is given the soldier must have the same opportunity as the officer, and must be allowed to keep what he has carried off, provided he has paid his share to the receiver for the emperor."
12:32 PM
I just read that; definitely one way to keep your army in order.
There's a lot of "the penalty is death" which is ideal for a goblin society.
There's some sensible hygiene laws mixed into those as well, here and there.
Yes, and not washing in a thunderstorm.
Your goblins are going to be the cleanest, least accidental-death-prone hordes ever.
They're the most numerous and feared race in the world, since the humans blew themselves up trying to bind a god into a magical volcano...
12:38 PM
I ought to do this more; the racial tropes really ease ideas about societies
The human kingdom collapsed and turned into a magiocracy, who in turn became more and more power mad until their leader decided he was as powerful as a god and tried to bind one of the gods into a magical node in a massive ritual. It didn't go well, the race as a whole was cursed and turned into Tieflings or Aasamar; there are no "normal" humans left
You might also enjoy looking into the Iroquois Nation and the Muslim Empire(s).
That's cute.
I've been watching info on the Muslim Empires in a recent series on TV about Rome and the History of the World (Andrew Marr) - which seems that if it wasn't for the Mongols, Europe would be Muslim
Cheers for the tips :)
My pleasure! I've done this kind of thing a lot, and Have Opinions.
I also pull from the city-states of Renaissance Italy. They're a microcosm of feuding and backstabbing, combining politics and religion in a way that really meshes well with the D&D ethos.
This could be an excellent rpg article; "nation states from history as nation states for your game."
AKA "How to leverage your liberal arts degree."
Although to be honest that's an exaggeration; only the Italian city-states come from that. The rest is just my being a voracious and insatiable reader.
12:49 PM
I wonder if there's a book with a succinct comparison of societies and cultures through the ages
Succinct? Probably not.
@BESW Ahhh that explains it a bit :)
@Rob Well, it doesn't hurt my religion explicitly encourages me to study and understand other religions, and one of the things I find fascinating is the progression of civilizations that rise from religions.
And when you look at a D&D type world in which gods are so central to the lives of mortals, it's hard not to look to religion-centered civilizations for cues.
Well said indeed; given me plenty to think about in that regard :) World building just got itself a new slant!
I see no need to build from the ground up when the world's given me such a wide foundation already.
12:54 PM
Ever tried Microscope ?
No, I've heard about it here.
I tried it for the Pathfinder game I mentioned before; it was pretty impressive what came about from just a list of 5 rules and a generic fantasy world; background, concepts, ideas... was great fun
I've run it as a standalone as well (the fall of atlantis) and that was good fun too
Collaborative world generation
Hm. Got a link?
There are some example games linked from there, which gives you a good idea how it works
I think they've done some other games too; similar fractal generational idea, different slants - one is Kingdom (I think) for running countries/star ships/soap operas/.....
I usually like to have a lot of control over my worldbuilding.
I approach my worlds very narratively.
Hobbs can tell you; I've been helping him with his campaign. His party's first adventure is going to be a symbolic microcosm of the entire campaign.
1:06 PM
I'd suggest trying it as a one-off exercise then, just to see how it conceptually works - it's worth the experience
Last campaign I ran the sole objective (as GM) was to get a very young L.R.Hubbard to see a monster from beyond the mythos, thereafter all was set for the doom
We had fun: we don't want to railroad the plot, so the first adventure is basically a study in miniature of the inevitable actions and interactions of the NPCs, with the PCs placed in the same position between them as they'll get in the big picture later.
Spooky :)
Foreshadowing indeed
I tend to generate NPCs, corporations and suchlike with agendas; throw the PC's in and then see what happens.
Invasion from outside, with two groups caught between that ought to work together but distrust each other and have different ideas about the best course of action, with the fate of the PCS and both groups in the balance, and only the PCs can be the voice of reason.
Nice; and the PC's are from both sects?
No, they're outsiders.
1:12 PM
aha, so both sides can actually trust them as inbetweeners
@Rob yeah, that's my favorite tactic. Create an elaborate chessboard of plots and agendas, with backup plans and contingencies, and then watch the party stumble through like a lopsided bowling ball knocking over all the pieces.
The one thing you can count on from most PCs is being entirely unpredictable.
Oh hell yes, that's part of the joy
"They're doing WHAT?"
The other part being plotting and scheming as the NPC's and deciding what to do
I must admit, one of the reasons I'm a GM more than a player is that I have more characters in my head than I can exorcise one at a time.
1:17 PM
Creating NPC's is a joy; I wait for players to find them and think "yes! Now I can wheel out the crackpot kobold rocket inventor to talk to them."
My first D&D group could spend a month's worth of sessions just wandering around a city talking to my NPCs. I'd have to slap them really hard with the plot to get them moving.
heh heh, speaks very well of your NPCs however
Well, again, I frequently borrowed from history. Or fiction, in the case of NPCs.
My knockoff of Jean Lafitte was very popular.
Well; once again, like societies, they're half fleshed out for you, you just need to add pointy ears or whatever to them :)
Yeah. For the pirate king, I used Isabelle Allende's version of him from her novel Zorro.
Right down to the freed-slave zombi wife.
1:23 PM
Not read that, alas :)
I'm not too fond of her other works, too romance-novel-ish.
But she depicts a very believable boy who could become Zorro, and puts him through the life experiences needed to turn him into that man.
Believeable characters are the bedrock of any good book
I think Ian Fleming would disagree.
Bond is certainly memorable however
As is Blofeld
Hmmmm, npc idea ;)
Memorable, certainly. Believable...
@Rob And there you have the source of nearly every game I run: what I'm reading at the time.
1:33 PM
:) I'm reading the Dresden files, npcs incoming
You should see the adventures I come up with when I'm reading Fandorin or Campion.
I do have to be careful not to crib from sources my players will recognize, though.
Again, outside my scope :)
Albert Campion is the detective hero of Margery Allingham's mystery novels (1920s to 1950s), and was played by the Fifth Doctor for the BBC miniseries.
Fandorin looks very interesting
Erast Fandorin is an Imperialist Russian detective written by the contemporary Russian Boris Akunin, and enjoys fame in Russian similar to Harry Potter's fame at the height of Rowling insanity.
The Fandorin novels are translated very very slowly, due to astonishingly high standards being applied to them.
1:41 PM
That is a good thing
Book one; kindled :)
One cool thing about the Fandorin novels is that each one is written in a different genre.
One might be a political thriller, then you'd have a spy novel, and then an Agatha Christie type deal.
I saw that in the wiki; the writer identified 16 different types and is doing one novel for each, clever
I'm really attracted to that kind of awareness in a writer.
It's one of the reasons I like Allingham's books, too.
She wrote murder mysteries because they were "stories in a box" and she liked to work within that framework to see how much variation and leeway you could get without actually breaking the box.
Any of hers you'd recommend particularly? :)
Hoom. It kinda depends. Obviously something starring Albert Campion, but the other reason I love her work is that it evolves.
All her novels are set contemporarily, and I'm sure you can imagine how much of a change that must be for novels set in Britain from the 1920s to the 1950s.
Her characters grow and arc through those years and those events, and even her plots change: the first Campion novel is a classic 1920s "international gang of criminals" type thing, and the last is about government experiments in telepathy.
The Tiger in the Smoke is probably the most critically acclaimed.
I really like... one moment, can't remember the title. The one with the Palinodes.
Yeah, I'd personally recommend Police at the Funeral or More Work for the Undertaker.
1:51 PM
Curses, no kindle versions
The first novel is hilarious because Campion is supposed to be a humorous side character, and you can watch him struggle out into the limelight despite Allingham's best efforts to keep the story focused on the guy who's supposed to be the hero.
heh. Like the character is going to become more than she intended and is fighting against the writer
Well, any of them is worth reading. Though I don't really recommend Traitor's Purse or The Case of the Late Pig as starters; they assume you know the main character already.
@Rob Yes.
She quickly gives in and most of the rest of her "fun novels" are about Campion.
Aha; "More work for the undertaker; £1.91 on kindle, sorted :)"
(She actually made most of her money writing book reviews and serial fiction for magazines.)
Excellent. I love the Palinodes.
The mystery itself is fairly mundane, but it's rarely the reason to read a Campion novel: the plots are there as excuses for character and setting.
They're never insulting, mind you.
1:55 PM
Look forward to it; thanks for the recommendation.
I love mystery/thriller books
But one thing I really do love is how spot-on she is about the British culture in each period. She writes with a kind of detached yet fond insight that most writers would need to be looking back twenty years to achieve.
My childhood heros were Charlie Chan and Jupiter Jones
@Rob AUGH. I believe you are the first person I have ever met who remembers Jupiter Jones.
I loved those books :) Read them all!
I wasn't sure you'd know him
I read all the ones I could get my hands on, which was... nearly all of them, I think.
I preferred the ones where the supernatural elements were not made undeniably supernatural.
(Some of the ghost writers were better at that than others.)
1:59 PM
Yeah; I prefer that too, where you're left wondering "is it, isn't it?"
I went from them to John Wyndham
I have a pet theory that there was one giant idea sweatshop for all those novels: the best ideas went into the "Three Investigators" box, the mediocre ideas went into the "Hardy Boys" box unless there was an orphan in them, in which case they were put in the "Nancy Drew" box, and the lousiest ideas went into the Dana Girls and Boxcar Children boxes depending whether you could possibly introduce a Teaching Moment into them.
(Don't get me wrong; The Boxcar Children were great until Warner died, and the kids all got their ages rewound five years and never aged a day after that.)
Haha, I never moved off to those others, hmmm, now I'm trying to remember another series I read when I was small, about travellers around the world... damn fuzzy brain
Hmm. Got anything else about it?
I read quite a bit, and I'm decent at the Googles too.
I can't really remember; been so long (my memory is so bad) All I can remember now is a scene where they were meeting "natives" and demonstrating tricks using modern things like lighters and mirrors to impress them, the mirror was the best trick of all.
That sounds like.... ooorf.
2:06 PM
There was a series of them, read quite a few at the time
Did one of them feature a giant electric eel in the heart of Africa?
Very possibly; I know "they" went there once
But this is very fuzzy memories
I think I'm thinking of Tom Swift.
Or maybe Danny Dunn?
Yeah, I'm thinking of Danny Dunn.
There were quite a few series from that general time frame with less-than-stellar attitudes towards "the natives."
Yeah, even Tintin in the early books
@Rob Alas. Though Herge is a great example of a man who will freely admit when he's wrong.
2:14 PM
Not either of those two; I think it was a group, probably brothers.
Indeed; I managed (finally) to get a copy of Tintin and the soviets recently, dear me, how it started off...
Huh. I am stymied.
@Rob His portrayal of other cultures became much more sympathetic after he'd made friends with a few people from outside his comfort zone.
@BESW Yep; it shows as the stories progress :) I used to love Tintin, and Asterix :)
I didn't encounter any Asterix until I was well into college, unfortunately.
But I gobbled up Tintin as a lad.
Now, there's a source of NPCs for you.
Good solid stock tropes ready and waiting.
Herge is also a great teacher in the art of the Contrived Coincidence.
Which makes for great plot :)
@Rob Every GM worth his stuff should work at mastering the Contrived Coincidence.
2:29 PM
Amen :)
Herge would never have had a problem orchestrating a player's early departure from a session, or someone having to miss a week, into the world of the game.
New player? No problem! Here's your great-aunt Dory's nephew's girlfriend. She's here to do an article for National Geographic.
And is in no way suspicious. At all.
Well said indeed; relatives are an excellent way to lever people in
Or character references from trusted NPCs
Captain Haddock's first mate's boy?
Captain Haddock; ahhhh great character :)
2:44 PM
Hello from the Middle East.
@BrianBallsun-Stanton Welcome back!
Greetings Sheik Brian
@JeorMattan Hi!
Argh.... Don't get me started.
Hi there, guys. Don't mind me, I'll probably just lurk here.
2:48 PM
@JeorMattan You're welcome to, but you might find this is a more suitable forum for your discussion currently going on in the comments.
Roll a stealth check
@BESW do I need to notice this discussion? Moderating comments with iPhone tends to hold down the flamethrower's trigger.
@BrianBallsun-Stanton It is both needlessly acerbic and increasingly off-topic.
@BESW Sure, as soon as I spot KRyan here.
Nice link in the dwarf thing about scottish @BESW : scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/21026/…
But I think it's a conversation that is good to have, just... not in the comments.
2:50 PM
Link please
@BrianBallsun-Stanton Comments on this answer: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/20217/4398
Ahhhh, staying away from that one I is :)
The site has a very vocal group espousing the evils of 3.5 martial/caster imbalance, and from what I can gather between the bear-baiting @JeorMattan has a valuable alternate viewpoint to contribute, if we can bring it out constructively.
@Rob Yeah, I saw that. Gonna have to track down that book, I suppose.
Bugger. No mod tools on iPhone. Flag the lot of them please.
2:53 PM
[sigh] Our local used bookstore shut down two years ago, and I feel the lack keenly.
@BESW I suppose post out to GU takes a while?
@Rob And is expensive, and many places just don't.
@BESW Ick :(
At least there's kindle and PDF's increasingly these days
edwardrhamilton.com stopped shipping to us a few years ago when the media rate prices went up for GU but not for the rest of the US.
@Rob ...I'm kinda old-fashioned that way.
Fairy nuff
2:57 PM
@BrianBallsun-Stanton I ran out of flags per day.
@BESW I probably repeatedly failed to express myself, but the point was that OP asked to fix 1 feat for him, fix as in "improve the feat from being a poor choice to being a viable, comparable to other options choice", not as in "make this feat so good everyone would want take it". The whole caster vs mundane thing may be discussed, but it is irrelevant to the topic presented.
@JeorMattan Unfortunately, you stumbled onto a couple of people who feel that everything about 3.x balance boils down the caster vs martial issue.
It's a trigger topic for them, but you weren't especially kind about your responses either.
I'll give you this, that comment thread stayed mostly on-topic a lot longer than any other I've seen.
@BESW not that I feel like I should have been kind, but okay, I'll take note of that.
@BESW yeah, sure, the credit would be mine and mine alone. BTW, does this chat have an official SARCASM sign?
Not that I know of. I'm fond of [wry], myself.
@JeorMattan Yeah, SE expects "civility at all times," and just because someone else is having a bad day doesn't mean we get license to be nasty too. A perfectly good answer is liable to vanish in the moderators' cleansing fire.
@BESW while I was not especially nice, I most assuredly remained civil, didn't I? May have missed something, though.
3:12 PM
Aside from the occasional mild curse, you were mostly just extremely condescending to each other because you were each writing from a very different approach to 3.x balance and had trouble imagining the others' view as requiring any thought other than to fix.
I must say I found it enlightening, but would've enjoyed reading it more if it hadn't been as sour.
SE is about providing peer-reviewed answers, not convincing individuals. The conversation you were having could generate some very helpful and insightful Q&A for the site.
Can't think of one, but whatever. It indeed was a bit out of place.
In the future, a downvote and a quick "doesn't seem to fit the OP's request" comment should be sufficient, and anything further can be taken into chat or turned into a question of its own (off the top of my head, "Against what rubric might a feat's merit be judged?", though that definitely needs some work before it's viable as a question).
(The number of comment conversations that move into chat is sadly small, and I personally think the site loses a lot of potential in that gap.)
3:35 PM
@BESW, @JeorMattan I'll be in to weigh in on the subject in a bit, must go throw up and then cram my organs back where they belong. Sick as a dog over here today.
Yar. I'm recovering from food poisoning myself.
My empathies.
Or I must swap computers
Be back...sometime >.<
4:02 PM
[yawn] It's 2am. Bed for me.
4:15 PM
Nighters @BESW
2 hours later…
6:35 PM
@BESW I always knew you were a male. I think it's my standard assumption when I'm on the Internet (espacially if amongst nerds) and the only female I know here is Cat for she said that once.
7:19 PM
@Zachiel lol
2 hours later…
9:07 PM
bah... there are way too many questions appearing on stackoverflow now. 355 featured? How is anything supposed to stand out?
840,254 unanswered questions? When did that happen?
Ha someone ever played legend of the 5 rings here?
@Zachiel I have a little.
9:26 PM
a frien of mine is going to GM it and can't find (in the master manual, maybe it's in the player's manual but she doesn't have that handy) what "0k2 dice" means
Depends, is it a damage rating?
I see from Google that 0k1 weapons exist too
don't you add your str as rolled dice?
Yeah, the weapon limits your maximum roll.
making the damage (str)k2 in the end?
9:28 PM
You roll your strength + any bonuses and then keep 2 dice.
just to be sure I understood, was it 1k3 it would be add all the bonuses, add 1 for this is the weapon bonus and then keep 3 dice?
in other words, what does the 0 stands for?
damn, brain fart... I suddenly can't remember all the details.
The weapon is actually a bonus in itself. So you are rolling Ring+Skill + 0 and keeping Ring + 2.
Whioch edition are you playing? I may have a copy of the rulebook hanging around and I can find you the page ref.
I've invited my friend here. Let's see if she can write without having to sign up
She can read us however
9:40 PM
I've got a copy of 4th edition to hand - is that the same one you're using?
Wow... I was so wrong both times already. It's been far too long since I played this system. I blame the 8-player group and the impossibility of scheduling that many people.
yeah I'm familiar with the feeling
However, here she is
Hi there @CarolinaLoza :)
10:08 PM
she has no reputation so she can't write
That doesn't help :P
not at all
how many points does she need?
she could write a question asking that now that I think about it
Don't know. I don't think it's much.
It's probably a good idea to just post the questions as questions. They might come in handy for other newbies picking up the system and getting confused.
10:54 PM
Well, I'm going to spend some time upgrading to Windows 8... I may be some time. I may also not be. I'll answer any questions I can find when I come back :)
@SimonGill Yeah, I was suggesting the chat for it's faster ad she needed to start a session in a few minutes.
11:30 PM
@Zachiel 20 rep to talk.
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