TRPG General Chat

Hopefully it sticks; that other guy seemed to have problems with recurrence.

12:27 AM

Looking for mechanical or setpiece ideas for an encounter on this concept: The party cuts through the Tiamattian cult's heavy defenses to gain entrance to its cavernous lair beneath the city.

doppelgreener

1:31 AM

@BESW Just in case, we also have this page: rpg.stackexchange.com/reputation

@JonathanHobbs [is crit by Wall of Numbers]

doppelgreener

2:00 AM

@BESW Scroll to the bottom. :) It's the reputation recalc page.

@JonathanHobbs I figured that after I made my save against stun.

doppelgreener

Hahaha.

It exists because your reputation on a site used to not be updated correctly, so users would generally hit the rep recalc page very now and then

2:13 AM

@JonathanHobbs How historical!

Amusing plot item concept: a door hinge which, when installed on any door, turns that door into a portal to [insert plot-related hard-to-get-to location].

Could be a fun side-quest to get the party to their next location, or the major focus of a campaign in which people are trying to open a door to... the vampire underworld or whatever.

6:08 AM

had the best session Ive ever had tonight

the combat was a sad exscuse for combat but the roleplaying was awesome

RATS ARE NOT COMBAT THEY ARE BOOTSTAINS.

LitheOhm

7:35 AM

@Novian from Baldur's Gate for PC (AD&D) to Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for PS2 (3.5), rats are the staple for adventurers just starting out. Can't vouch for any earlier than that, but I imagine it was much the same.

Leezard

@LitheOhm Ghostwalk sounds neat.

LitheOhm

8:12 AM

@Leezard I really like it.

Arrrgg.... I can't believe how annoying reading "Iaijutso" over and over again is. It's like a little needle jabbing into my foot.

LitheOhm

@SimonGill hehe

@SimonGill [prick]

@Novian Excellent! Good all-engaging RP can compensate for most ills.

I would like to take a moment to extol the virtues of what is being called "Marvelous Initiative." magbonch.wordpress.com/2012/03/02/marvelous-initiative

I suspect it can be rolled into nearly any initiative-based system.

Extol away.

Basically every time someone finishes their turn, that person decides who goes next, until everyone's gone. Then the last person in the round chooses anyone but himself to go first in the next round.

Initiative rolls at the start of combat determine who gets first pick (they do not have to go first themselves).

It encourages party strategy, paying more attention outside your turn, paying attention to the other players' abilities and resources, and discourages running off to play on your phone because you might get called at any time.

8:17 AM

That does sound interesting.

We used index card halves with character names (and a little picture, because we're that kind of group) laid out on the table. When you start your turn, your card is turned over.

At the end of your turn you choose a card that's still face-up to go next.

It really encourages the kind of strategy that turn-holding is supposed to cover.

Did you find much of an issue with the "until the end of your next turn" effects?

@SimonGill That's actually part of strategy.

@BESW But was it a bug, or a feature, in your eyes?

Definitely a feature.

This initiative variant is doing nothing that turn-holding doesn't already do.

It just makes it more transparent and accessible.

Well, it does a little bit with start-of-turn junk.

8:22 AM

@BESW I thought turn-holding still ended "until your next turn" effects when your turn was supposed to be?

Pretty sure not. I'd have to check.

But anyway, I think any unintended abuse of turn-based durations is well worth it.

I saw my players go from being fairly self-contained strategists whose party-based plans were very minimal, to high cooperators taking advantage of each others' specialties, in a single session.

@BESW That's an awesome feature.

It may be important to point out that this is a feature of both PCs and NPCs.

Any creature ending their turn can choose any other creature who hasn't had a turn yet.

So you can pass to your friend, or to the boss.

Depending on positioning and effects, you may choose different things.

@BESW Remember that question on Dual Implement Spellcasting you answered recently? I think it might actually work as "other hand" and not "off-hand," if you consider the DDI Online Character Builder as a source.

@Soulrift A very good point, but I do not consider the DDI OCB a source of rules interpretation. I've seen it mess up too many obvious things.

It frequently fails to provide support for slightly unusual feats that bend the rules even a little.

And my favorite is when it let a half-orc take dragonborn feats because he learned Draconic.

8:33 AM

Woah, that's quirky! Is that still in there now or was it fixed?

I haven't been able to replicate it.

I once had a PC with a mysterious +1 to NADS for four levels before they vanished as strangely as they came.

But yeah, it has particular trouble with weird conditional feat support.

I'm quite willing to consider it when evaluating picky rules in my campaigns, but I'm very much a "trust, but verify" kind of guy in these situations.

Absolutely. I only cite it because it's the only official source that I can find that directly addresses this particular issue.

As you point out in your original answer, it's a fringe case with no explicit rules.

Which is important! And your answer, as it is relevant, well-researched, and contributes to knowledge of the issue, gets a solid +1 from me.

:)

Also I like your "adds the bonus twice" nitpick for casting with the off-hand.

Can't believe I missed that.

8:40 AM

Yeah, I realized part-way through: it says the feat adds the off-hand bonus, but does not specify "When you cast with your main hand" or anything like that.

I can't decide if that's balanced or not.

And I was glad I tested with two different enhancement modifiers, so you clearly see a +1 in one and a +3 in the other. A strict reading of the feat should have the +1 (since the +1 blade is in the off-hand) to both.

What is the particular balance issue that concerns you in this case?

Because... um. My understanding is that the intended balancing feature of the feat is that you have to spend money on two high-level implements to make it useful. By that reading you get to hold your one implement in your off hand and double its effective bonus without spending any more money.

Oh right, from that quirky strict "off-hand" interpretation. But if you switch to the "other hand" interpretation, then the balance issue goes away, yes?

....yes.

8:43 AM

...which does further support the value in supporting the "other hand" interpretation ;)

brb

Hrm.

Perhaps my reading of the feat was colored by my long-time experience as a 3.5 GM.

Was there a similar feat/feature in 3.5?

Yes, but more generally the most strict readings of spellcasting feats, especially ones related to magic item use, were almost always more generous than the most liberal reading of martial feats.

So I may have this underlying urge to say "no" to feats like that.

Though in this case, the liberal "other hand" reading merely provides the player with variety / versatility in properties applied to their spellcasting, which I don't see as being overly generous.

Yeah, I probably overthought it.

It gives a damage boost, actually, not versatility.

You can hold two implements without the feat.

8:57 AM

Though I'm sure someone out there has figured out a crazy exploit that involves casting two different spells through two different implements on the same time and it breaks the game solely because the second spell also gains the main hand implement's enhancement bonus in added damage.

But it's a horribly expensive damage boost.

Well, I mean, the strict "gain the off-hand bonus when casting with the main hand" reading that you proposed versus the "gain the other hand's bonus when casting with either hand" reading.

If the feat gave the spell both the implements' features, it'd be very powerful because you could get a cheap implement with a good feature.

Oh yes, but I don't think there's any confusion that you gain the properties of the other hand's implement. It's just adding the other implements enhancement bonus to damage rolls.

It's mainly an issue of "can you take one shot with this implement and one shot with that implement and do extra damage with both."

Heh. It doesn't even work on Magic Missile.

9:03 AM

Or any power that deals modifier-only damage, like... um...

All the ones I'm thinking of right now are weapon attacks, but yeah.

Beguiling Strands, that's what I was thinking of.

10:13 AM

Ey up

Morning Rob :)

Ohai.

How the bajingo are things?
New year; new games :) Finished the first Dresden Files book, now need the game :)

@Rob Great books, looks like a great game.

@Rob I'm over halfway through my to-do list for the entire day, so I'm pretty happy :P

10:23 AM

@SimonGill Nice going :)

@BESW Finished the first book yesterday; immediately downloaded the next one :)

@Rob I'm having trouble tracking them down because I want them physically.

I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 14. Sigh.

@BESW Ahh, I'm finding having them on my phone (Samsung S3) in Kindle is a much more easier way to get to read

14 books?

This'll keep me busy a while!

14 was just published recently. He's said he plans to have about 20.

There's a major plot arc going that he thinks it'll take 20 books to resolve.

@BESW How big is each book, roughly?

350ish pages?

Don't think I have any that hit 400.

The first one is about 340.

10:29 AM

So, it's about a third of the wheel of time then (which I've just started for the last time...)

@SimonGill Wheel of time? Good luck!

@Rob It's not that bad. Just a bit slow from 6-11.

homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=45

@BESW That's more like Martin :P Who has averaged 5 years a book.

That was written 6 years ago, so...

10:33 AM

And we've had the last three books in that period!

I'm quite convinced that Jordan took the "it's like Tolkien, with women!" praise too literally.

Eye of the World had interesting, compelling women with depth and unique characterization.

Every woman he added after that flattened them all out until practically the only difference between each flat Rand-idolizing girl was whether they sniffed or tugged their hair.

Just couldn't keep up with all his own characters. Bite off more than he could chew.

Heh, good comic; I've stayed away from them - was warned ;)

@Rob I don't recommend that comic as one of the Greats but it's mostly harmless and I keep that one link on file.

10:50 AM

@BESW I've added it to my morning comics list to give it a try; but I'm on around 20 at the moment anyway ;)

heh.

There are many I'd recommend over it.

Please do :)

Some people read the newspaper; I read webcomics. I find them a much more cheerful a start to the day.

Want a list, or a phrase describing each too?

Whatever you can manage; I'll list some of mine if you like

This can have no negative impact on my morning. At all. Ahem.

I suspect there may be some overlap here ;)

10:58 AM

Digger: The story of a practical woman in an impractical world. Brilliant art and storytelling, recently won a Hugo. (completed!) diggercomic.com

Narbonic: Mad science! Evil with a pink heart dotting the "i". Weird, touching. Hang in; the art style gets a lot better really fast. (also completed!) narbonic.com

Skin Horse: Where Narbonic is about mad scientists, Skin Horse is about their hapless creations. Black ops Social Service workers. skin-horse.com

Atland A fine fantasy romp with glorious cartoon style realmofatland.com Finished.

Surviving the World: Advice, observations, graphs, about what it's like to live in the weird world we do. Optimistic and quicky. survivingtheworld.net

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal World commentary, observations and wrong. Art not the best, wit definitely worthwhile. smbc-comics.com (Ongoing forever hopefully!)

Darths & Droids: All six Star Wars movies, in chronological order, presented as if being played by tabletop RPGers in a universe without Star Wars. Makes more sense than the prequels. darthsanddroids.net

(Currently on A New Hope.)

Oooo hooo, darths and droids is going to eat me some time up; nice :D

Order of the Stick Fantastic sticky D&D saga, ongoing and a brilliant must read; most have :) giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

11:06 AM

2D Goggles: If the list-loving Victorian inventor of the computer Charles Babbage had teamed up with mathematical genius and tempramental lovechild of Lord Byron Ada Lovelace so they could Fight Crime (and street musicians), you'd get this. Irregular updates, but heavily annotated with real-life original sources. sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles

Erfworld Life inside a wargame; wierd and fun. Ongoing erfworld.com

Girl Genius: Gorgiously illustrated and terribly quirky steampunk vision of a Europe dominated by mad science. Multiple award winner. www.girlgeniusonline.com

(Can you see a pattern in my comic tastes?)

"I can't negotiate with a sword, I need a blaster."
Genius.

@BESW I'm sensing a pattern :)

Snowflame: Um. One-off DC Comics villain Snowflame, who gets his powers from snorting cocaine, gets a webcomic focused on him. Fairly new, so not a lot of content yet but updates regularly. snowflamecomic.com

@Rob Too bad it had multiple months of a hiatus recently.

11:09 AM

Elf Only Inn Story of a RPG chatroom, sadly deceased. elfonlyinn.net/d/20020523.html

@MartinSojka Yeah; but he's just done another one, thumb is back online it seems :)

Once Upon a Table: Plagued by hiatuses and probably dead, but worth reading, this is Yet Another RPG Comic. But this one is genuinely funny both at the table and in the world, and I've actually poached ideas for my campaigns. uponatable.com

Dr. McNinja The only comic (I know) to feature Mexican Bandito Velorapters. Nuff said. drmcninja.com

Home of Bob, the town called Bob where everyone is named Bob and looked exactly like the GM. Because he didn't prepare a town for that session.

Har :)

I assume you know xkcd.

11:13 AM

Oh yes :)

I think Atland's the only one in there I haven't at least heard of. I couldn't handle Erfworld; I tried, but it seemed a little... smug.

I... um. That's less than half my comic list, but it's the major ones.

Let's see what I have which isn't mentioned here ...

I'm assuming you know Questionable Content, Sinfest, Scenes from the Multiverse, Penny Arcade, Looking for Group, Oglaf and VG Cats

Erfworld took me two goes to get into it; second time I was hooked; sadly after the end of book one it went a bit wierd

A Girl and Her Fed: The story of a clandestine government project to put chips in peoples' heads, as part of a war in the afterlife between every famous person ever. Benjamin Franklin's ghost is a major character. agirlandherfed.com

I'm surprised Schlock hasn't made it's appearance yet :P

11:16 AM

Schlock Mercenary: Action SF which doesn't trample on the laws of physics. schlockmercenary.com

I used to like Schlock; but it grated eventually

There, it did. ;)

It has ups and downs

And sluggy freelance for that matter; sluggy.com

haven't read that in eons

Well that's my mornings pepped up; thanks very much :)

Doctor Why: Anyone who has ever thought the Tenth Doctor was a little whiny sometimes should give this a shot. Anyone who has ever wondered why people think he's a little whiny might get an idea. doctorwhy.livejournal.com/2389.html

Errant Story: Yet another fantasy adventure. Starts off rather light-hearted, but gets darker and more serious in time. Finished; now he's reviewing the earlier pages and mistakes he did: errantstory.com

11:18 AM

(Took a little while to track down that link; it's an old and dead comic for obvious reasons.)

Drive Comic: A really engaging and non-American-based scifi future with very engaging characters and a complicated but well-explicated world. drivecomic.com

And 8 bit theatre of course; nuklearpower.com/8-bit-theater

Lovecraft is Missing: Delightfully self-indulgent Cthulhu Mythos comic with really superb art and some lovely link posts also. lovecraftismissing.com

Matt Эллен

Yu + Me Dream is a particularly enjoyable tale set mostly in a dream scape. It uses a variety of art styles, too.

Paradigm Shift: Werewolf cop manga-style comic. Updates are spotty. paradigmshiftmanga.com

QC's already been mentioned....

Nodwick Dragon era comic about a band of adventurers and their henchman nodwick.com

11:26 AM

Fallen: Sadly abandoned six years ago, but a very interesting bit of worldbuilding and good art, if sometimes a little wangsty and/or predictable. fallencomic.com

Do I need to mention Something Positive?

I know that one :)

I guess that's about it. Everything else on my list is kinda iffy or really really niche.

Matt Эллен

Have you read the Dresden Codak? It has some of my favourite art

(Li'l Mell makes no sense at all if you don't know Narbonic.)

Wasn't ever really able to get into it.

I really admire some art, but I won't stick around just for art.

Evil Inc Superhero comic; up and down, but usually worth a read evil-comic.com

Perry Bible Fellowship (Ended) One off snappy comics that make you smile pbfcomics.com

Matt Эллен

11:30 AM

I'm a big fan of all of Josh Lesnik's stuff too.

Although it's often NSFW

ahem, I mean Lesnick

11:50 AM

Morning all!

Herp Derp.

That's one load of comic strips

Posted a question, immediately deleting it because I found a ruling that makes it irrelephant.

@Cat Hi!

@BESW Hi there!

I don't LIKE this rule.

Ignores Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t hindered by difficult terrain.

@Cat How're you?

11:52 AM

Good. I've had my morning cup of starbucks and now I'm ready to take on the world, or well, at least some writing projects

Any progress on your matriarchal society?

Hey @Cat

A little, but I got hung up on whether or not men are going to become sex slaves or not. Everything I touch turns to sleeze...

I will go back to it, after I figure out which solution I prefer to that problem

Hey @Rob

I really think it'd help to get down to cases with the sociology books.

@C.Ross Greetings!

/me beats AWK with a stick

11:55 AM

You are likely right

Especially with your scientific background, I think it'd help solidify things in your head.

Examples, studies, precedents, all that data-type stuff.

Yeah, there will be chances once I get back to the university campus next week

@Rob I'm going to amuse myself by pretending you mean the Wake Island Airfield.

Anyway, I may simply say "screw it all" and go ahead by saying "it's my world, and sex slaves don't exist here"

Even though it is an interesting underbelly to have.

@BESW I have a mighty cross-continental ballistic stick!!

12:08 PM

Well, that killed the conversation :)

lol

Heh.

Anyone up for brainstorming about how to sprinkle Tiamat flavor into a beat-down-the-defense fight?

I'd help if I knew what Tiamat was...

@BESW Stage the fight while swimming in the ocean?

Tiamat: Evil; Female; Greed, Strife, Vengeance.
Tiamat is the evil god of wealth, greed, and envy. She is the patron of chromatic dragons and those whose lust for wealth overrides any other goal or concern. She commands her followers to:
• Hoard wealth, acquiring much and spending little. Wealth is its own reward.
• Forgive no slight and leave no wrong unpunished.
• Take what you desire from others. Those who lack the strength to defend their possessions are not worthy to own them.

12:11 PM

@Cat Babylonian goddess of the ocean and chaos, basically; also the mom of the younger gods (together with Abzu, god of fresh water).

She also tends to have five heads.

@MartinSojka That would be where D&D got the name. Not much else carried over though.

@BESW As in a 4e character generation thingamaboby?

Ahhhh I remember her when she was a dragon....

Tiamat (Dungeons & Dragons)

Tiamat is a supremely strong and powerful draconic goddess in the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. The name is taken from Tiamat, a goddess in ancient Mesopotamian mythology who is substantially different (and does not have multiple heads). Tiamat is a queen and mother of evil dragons and a member of the default pantheon of D&D gods. Tiamat was also named as one of the greatest villains in D&D history in Dragon #359, the magazine's final print issue. Publication history She was given the name Tiamat after the dragonlike Babylonian goddess of the salt waters. Dungeons & Dragons (1...

Thanks

I'm working with the 4e version.

Got a cult of Tiamat, led by an evil dragon, that's got a lair in a cave system beneath the city that's home to the dragonpope of Tiamat's rival god Bahamut. They're working to raise a volcano to destroy the city.

12:14 PM

@BESW Another one for "WTF were they smoking?!?" file then. :D

I've got ideas for the actual battle, but I need an encounter where the party gets past the lair-temple's heavy defenses. I don't have any particular ideas about what kind of defenses, just that they should be Tiamatian.

From the description, it doesn't sound like the goddess itself has a theme. Her cult might, but that would differ from cult to cult; cut-throat Hansa-style merchants would be different from nomadic Mongolian hordes.

Greed, strife, vengeance. Sometimes she's depicted as having affinity for the elements her heads breath.

I can see NPCs with vengeance-themed powers that retaliate when hit, but that's just one little mechanic.

Neither of those suggest any style. Maybe the remains of those punished for their wrongs as part of "vengeance" (heads on spikes?).

I was thinking sacrifices as well...

12:18 PM

This particular cult was once a cult of Io, the dead god whose bifurcated body became the rival gods Tiamat and Bahamut. The cult was corrupted by the evil PCs about 70 years earlier and turned into a cult of Tiamat.

The wiki doesn't really suggest much

(to my limited imagination)

(time travel is fun!)

Just give the cult a style, even if it's rainbows and unicorns, and roll with it.

Okay... they're raising a volcano. I've got a dragon that's going to specialize in earthquakes and volcanoes.

Fire worshippers

12:20 PM

... especially rainbows if it was once a cult of Io.

Ahah. Perfect.

So, quaking traps, fireballs, etc

At the same time they corrupted this cult, the party also destroyed a harmless fire cult that was really just a smiths' union.

But the leader had a Primordial-bound artifact that created an obsession with fire in its bearer.

They tossed it into the sacred river that runs out of the dragonpope's palace, hoping that would cleanse it, but it was picked up by a river-trawling beggar who got blamed for the murder of the cult because he had the crown.

After 70 years I think it's totally reasonable that the fire crown made its way into the Tiamat cult.

@BESW Why are they raising a volcano? Does it lead to them enacting vengeance for something? And if yes, for what?

Gee, you really can take a suggestion and run with it.

12:24 PM

@MartinSojka They're a Tiamatian cult under the city that is home to the dragonpope of Bahamut. They don't need another reason....

...but they have one, because they're actually a plant by the dragonpope's rival empire and take orders from its spies, though the rank and file cultists don't know that.

@Cat If the empire's spies told them to trash the city as effectively as possible, the fire crown artifact could explain their "volcano" strategy. Giving the leader of the temple defenders the crown makes the fight interesting, gives the players something to think about because they remember the crown from before, and helps give everything a bit more context.

@BESW Ah well, destroying the power centre of a rival cult. That would work as a motivation, I guess. The only problem would be if doing so would destroy wealth; this would go against their believes ...

@MartinSojka UNless they "rescue" as much of the wealth as possible by taking control of the banks/guilds.

and leaving a thin veneer behind to cover their activities.

Oh, okay, so they've already encountered the fire crown ... still impressive though.

:)

@MartinSojka In the Federated States of Arkhosia, Bahamut-worshipping dragons each rule their own city-state. They consider its prosperity and success to be the measure of their wealth: rather than cultivating a treasure trove, they cultivate a city.

@SimonGill Exactly. Alternatively, the players - if they don't manage to defeat the cult by force and have to retreat - might use the greed to negotiate a truce, once they learn who they are dealing with.

12:28 PM

So for a Tiamatian cult, destroying an Arkhosian city is destroying a rival dragon's treasure trove without actually losing anything they consider treasure.

It helps to have a rough idea about the possibility space when the players lose a battle. :)

@Cat Yeah, everything I said that you were responding to was already canon in the campaign, that the players partook in.

@MartinSojka Boom!

(Actually, I usually plan for the outcomes of "win", "retreat", "get captured" and "change sides" ...)

heheh.

@BESW That's boring.

12:30 PM

Yes, yes.

Generally I ensure that things like "volcano exploding" are mechanically off the table, though I don't tell my players that.

In a different campaign I'd be more open-ended, but this one's on rails and everyone's okay with that.

So it'll be more like "you saved the city, but at what cost?"

I mean, it's fine if the characters (or even the players) think that the stakes are "win or BOOM", but I don't like the actual outcomes to be that final. In either direction.

This is a campaign that takes place in the distant past of the PoL setting, so it has certain outcomes that must be fulfilled. We began the campaign knowing that; it's a given and our adventures are about finding out how and why things happened that way, and how it could have been worse if the players hadn't been there.

@BESW ... what, no "how the PCs screwed it up for everyone"?

@MartinSojka :)

@MartinSojka [whistles innocently]

Put it this way: historically, neither empire survives this war.

One had the city at the heart of its war economy "mysteriously explode," and on the other side the dragonpope got murderkilled when a cult of Tiamat opened the city's back gate for an army.

The party will be there for both of these events.

And because I have a conceit where every few levels we roll different characters and spend a level being soldiers of the evil empire, the party's been on both sides of the war doing damage.

The final fight will be good PCs vs bad PCs trying to kill/save the dragonpope, with the players running both their good and evil PCs in the fight.

12:37 PM

thumbs up

It's a very different style from my usual campaigns, which are more about setting up elaborate schemes the NPCs are all trying to enact to achieve their goals, with backup plans and contingencies, and then dropping my players in to watch them screw everybody's stuff up.

"The guy you just gave your pistol to suddenly sees some car backup up in the side street. He tells you 'I'll be right back' and runs to the car, weapon in hand. A moment later you recognise Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria sitting in there with his wife ..."

Dec 9 '12 at 12:22, by BESW

Instead I build NPCs with plans and goals, and contingency plans, and watch my players waltz into carefully balanced power plays with all the dignity and grace of an octogonal bowling ball.

So... fire artifact, vengeance mechanic.

12:56 PM

Hmmm. Leader controller who buffs his followers with fire and.... debuffs with ranged attacks.. Followers are more martial-y DPS who retaliate when hit.

Environment... narrow hall. Gouts of fire. Occasional earthquakes knocking prone and dislodging rocks.

I'll have the hall do switchbacks across my map, maybe three times. Party fights its way down a long narrow twisty corridor from the surface to the cave-temple.

1:45 PM

@BESW Who the hell would build a defensible structure where the attacker has height advantage?

@MartinSojka That would be why it switchbacks: the lair is below the city, and a tunnel making a straight shot from the surface to the cave would be very steep.

By putting in two hairpin bends, the tunnel's length triples and it's a much gentler slope down.

Advantage becomes minimal.

The problem is that is a slope down, not how gentle it is.

What do you propose?

In other words, all the attacker has to do is to pour some boiling oil on the defenders.

(... or other nasty liquids)

So how do you propose to design a defensible path from the surface to a cave below the surface?

About all I can think of is clockwise spiral stairs so right-handed attackers going down are swinging into the central post.

1:50 PM

Idea: Mostly flat tunnels, with small left/right turn combinations build such that there is a small shooting gallery facing "outwards" on each (defenders can fire on the attackers, but the same fortifications can't be used by attackers to fire back from behind cover).

Tunnel parts end in open platforms in a small cave with an open, steep stair leading down, such that you have your right side exposed when going down. Small step up on the other side of the cave, with cover, leading to another mostly flat tunnel.

Flat fortified sections with gutters at the bottom of the slope to catch the nasty liquids might work too.

Where possible, tunnel going back and up, ending at grates to shoot or pour liquids at attackers from above.

Prepared partially collapsable ceilings to deal with "shield turtle" approaches.

That would be about it as far as medieval-level defences without any magical help would go.

Defensible path from surface to cave below:
Deep crevisis with bridges on the other side, low dips that can be flooded with water, gas or oil, tunnel sections with murderholes above, hidden doors that lead away from the main corridor to a trapped tunnel where you can roll landslides down, pits....

I like a lot of these ideas.

I'm going to have to come up with a justification to not use most of them, just because I don't want the lead-in to the dragon battle to take as long as the dragon battle. Metametameta.

If the defenders can get hold on anything which would render attacker's armour and weapons useless - or just destroy them outright - all the better.

No idea how easy it is to get hold of "destroy item" type artefacts and spells in 4e though.

1:58 PM

Metal section corridors where the floors can be superheated, army ant nests, tiny tunnels that lead to the dragon's lair and are labelled "breath into here", deadfall traps, wider sections can just be fortified just like a castle wall, but with no gap over the top

Were-kobolds

Now we're getting silly.

3:22 PM

What tipped you off? The were-kobolds?

The Oracle

6:14 PM

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Q: Chrome SE topbar broken

I'm not sure where to post this, but for the last two days the top-bar interaction at RPG.SE.com has been broken under Chrome. I had a notice button that I couldn't click on and the popdown arrow "V" didn't work. Also the Winter Blast stopped appearing under chrome. It all works properly under...

bug

StuperUser

7:04 PM

I'm running the Pathfinder Beginner Box campaign with some people who have never played before. The party got through the first adventure (Black Fang's Dungeon). I was originally running it to level up independently of XP as the story progressed. However, one of the party has left the country and is getting replaced by another player who has played RPGs before. Would there be any issues of starting the new player off at level 2 with the rest of the party?

Just bring in the new player on an equal power level with the other players and it shouldn't cause a problem, I'd think.

StuperUser

Awesome. I'm going to have the new player be present at a resurrection and steal... ahem... adapt Chris Perkin's they've already been resurrected elsewhere story and the new PC will tell the party that they've seen this before. Should ingratiate the new PC to the party be suitable motivation for them to stick together

@StuperUser Not only is there no issue with doing so, I'd say there are extreme issues with level disparities between players

it's a really bad idea in general

StuperUser

@KRyan I'd imagine it'd be more pronounced at the lower levels (this would be 3 level 2s and a level 1)?

Yeah, bringing in someone new to the group at a higher power level robs the others of feeling that they have worked for their experience

7:17 PM

@MadMAxJr well, I was assuming the alternative was starting lower than the others, but that's also a really bad idea

@StuperUser yes, the difference between level 1 and level 2 is enormous; level 2s have almost twice as much HP, double or more BAB, better saves, and more class features

@KRyan I've done this before, only in higher level games. (D&D 3.5, party level was ~12) I brought in the player one level below average, but he was given opportunities to quickly catch up. The big one was for him to provide me a note card that briefly describes his character and gives me three facts/plot hooks I can use.

but really, because levels are better-than-linear in all but the weakest cases, the disparity remains really large for even a singular level at higher levels

@MadMAxJr I could see doing that as a way to get a player involved but it would have to be kept very short

Hooks like: I have a brother in X city. My hero wishes to gain proof he's battled a dragon. My character was framed for a robbery in X city.

also, XP costs are (sadly) a thing, so sometimes there must be level disparities or those abilities become free

but still

It's an incentive to help the player fit in more rapidly and give the other players some information to work with regarding the new player.

7:21 PM

in general, I refuse to allow level disparities in my game (which also generally includes LA, for me, because the LA mechanics are atrocious)

The system I play these days, every encounter is borderline deadly, experience simply gives you more options, so it tends to be less of an issue there.

@KRyan I have a simpler solution: I don't GM in games where something like "level" exists or matters - or I apply some house rules to make it not matter anymore.

7:38 PM

@MartinSojka eh, I like level-based systems

I don't. I can play in them, but preparing a viable scenario in them as a GM isn't going to happen for me - too many downright silly results when I think things through.

It's a sliding scale of complexity from simple shared story telling to flat out board game.

That's the point. Unless the levels are so weak as to be inconsequential, the systems with them are way too complex for me to GM for. Give me something simple like GURPS or WoD.

@MartinSojka GURPS as... less complex? I'm not familiar with it, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make that claim before

WoD, eh... White Wolf doesn't impress me for the mechancis

very, very cool ideas

@KRyan It is for the preparation part for me.

7:45 PM

execution leaves me desiring a lot

You know, the part where I'm thinking "Ok, what are the demographics of the place, what gets imported and exported, how is the tax and money flow as the result, what does it mean for the available and actual skills of the people, both those potentially helping and hindering the PCs."

I mean, that's an important thing but I don't see how levels or the lack thereof affect how difficult that is to do

RIFTS. You like rules right? HAVE MORE RULES

thought RIFTS was rules-light? or no, that was Risus

well, in terms of an enormity of utterly-stupid-and-pointless rules, FATAL probably wins (which it can put right on the shelf next to most-offensive-game-ever trophy)

The problem isn't levels; it's higher-than-linear levels (though ideally I like the levels to be at most logarithmic; that is, when one level 2 guy is twice as strong as two level 1 guys, it means that a level 4 guy is as strong as three level ones, level 8 as strong as four level ones and so on).

For example: It's hard to set up a useful military structure of a region if all it takes is for someone to level up to level 8 to neutralise the entire military.

Even if I manage to do it, it usually ends up looking nothing like I'd like it to do. In particular, it looks nothing like anything resembling any military structure on Earth, ever.

7:56 PM

Open systems that don't provide hard rules or standards in certain areas run into areas where it's simply a call of 'The DM says so'. This isn't a problem in games where your group respects your decisions fully, but can be complicated in other group dynamics.

8:20 PM

@MartinSojka aha, yes, that I could certainly see

9:44 PM

Found this class in the back of CAr and I thought It was interesting. dndtools.eu/classes/initiate-of-the-sevenfold-veil

Neato abilities and Casting progression.

@waxeagle It's pretty explicit that anyone who can see a hidden creature can point it out to people who can't see it, but that this only lets the person know what square they're in rather than making them unhidden. As talking is a free action I could see ruling that a friend who can see the monster could yell at you to take your triggered action, especially if it's a reaction instead of an interrupt.

I would probably allow this in most cases, but it's definitely an interpretation. However, the idea that you can tell your friends which square a monster is in if you know and they don't is not an interpretation.

ah the ole invisible monster discussion?

Q: Does a hidden creature trigger powers from those it's hidden from?

3

Of what I searched in, I haven't found a clear indication as to the answer of this question: When a creature is Hidden from another creature, let's call them "Heidie" and "Attacky" respectively, does Heidie trigger any of Attacky's powers? In my last game session, two situations arose simultaneo...

dnd-4e stealth

gotta love fighting invis creatures. Its a pain in the everything.

unless you have hearing the air. That or blindsense. or as always See invis.

wax eagle

@BESW yes, that's written right into the RC at this point. But it doesn't change the hidden condition.

Q: Is the tag [magic-missile] necessary?

9:54 PM

@waxeagle I'm just pointing out that "An argument could be made that a teammate from whom the creature is not hidden from could relay their location to you, but that only goes so far," is a little ambivalent about a rule that's actually quite explicit.

@Novian There was the time my party had a bola kobold who dealt no damage but caused slow/restrain/can't teleport, and prone if he hit twice. He could make the attack into a 3x3 burst of squares, or twice into one square. Yes, the monster was invisible, but it was prone and couldn't move at all. The party just kicked it in the kidneys until it gave up.

Oh, re: the discussion about remembering the afterlife, I think I'm going to have my campaign afterlives be timeless in such a way that if you are ever resurrected, it happens immediately from your perspective. This is deliberately to keep you from remembering the afterlife.

Your eternal reward should be eternal, not "vacation until you get a call from work."

wax eagle

@BESW reworked the wording to address that.

@Novian burst/blast/area/wall powers all work well against invisibles, specially if you have half decent passive perception

The Oracle

10:30 PM

1

I think the tag magic-missile is a little too precise and doesn't add anything. Are tags like these really necessary and should we keep using them?

discussion tagging

10:59 PM

Is the [magic-missle] tag being used largely for 4e?

dunno

cant fathom why such a tag exists

Because if it's 4e, I know why.

And it's silly. But there's an underlying potentially legit tag that could come from it.

4e isnt an area of knowlege I specialize in

Nearly every damage bonus in 4e requires either a hit or a damage roll. Magic Missile deals flat damage without an attack, so it's one of the most difficult powers in the game to boost damage on.

There are, however, other powers with similar issues, so a more general tag might be appropriate.

And neither is 3.5e

I play them and know many things but do not remember enough to throw out facts at random without reading.

@BESW hmm

4th level abjurations......

11:08 PM

If there's a need, I'd suggest a tag about non-attacking attack powers and another about non-dice-rolling damage.

NDR-Powers? Because No-Dice-Roll-Damage-Power is a bit long for a tag

problem with that is that not everyone will understand what it means

I'm not suggesting what the tag says, just what it's about.

And only if there is actually a need; I have no idea what the [magic-missile] tag was being used for.