English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:01 PM

@Reg I nearly feel like these many questions about morning/day/noon/midday/afternoon/evening/eve/night/midnight and day/month/year and daily/bidiurnal/semiannual/sesquicentennial deserve a better tag (or tags) than just time, but I couldn’t think of a good one.

RegDwighт

Yeah.

user19161

@tchrist Maybe "the fourth dimension".

RegDwighт

Plus, what would be left of time if they were all retagged?

tchrist

I wondered that, too.

Hours, minutes, and seconds would be the answer. :)

user19161

@RegDwighт The universe starts all over again with a new Big Bang.

RegDwighт

3:02 PM

And I guess we will have date as well.

tchrist

We do so.

RegDwighт

38 questions.

user19161

@RegDwighт Special number to me.

user19161

I am born on 23 of 8.

user19161

This is a sign...

RegDwighт

3:03 PM

How does that render 38 significant?

user19161

Well, 23 with 8 is 238, and 238 without 2 is 38.

user19161

This is called "juxtaposition".

RegDwighт

This is called galimatias.

user19161

Rather, this is called "rubbish".

RegDwighт

I did say galimatias.

user19161

3:05 PM

I mean I am talking rubbish.

tchrist

prime, terce, sext, none.

> Vespers, Matins, Compline, and (on Sundays) the Midnight Office.

Horologion. Psalter. Octoechos. Menaion. Menologion. Triodion. Pentecostarion. Synaxarion. Irmologion. Typicon. Favicon.

Johan Larsson

Are the tags nested? Should it be DateTime-TimeofDay etc?

tchrist

So date-time and time-of-day, you mean? Dunno.

RegDwighт

There was also food for foods-of-day recently.

Johan Larsson

Not sure, I mean parent child, you could filter for date-time and get all related to date or time, time-of-day would result a subset

RegDwighт

3:12 PM

Flat hierarchy.

Johan Larsson

ok, can see a tree structure provide some value here

RegDwighт

You can filter for [date] [time]. But you can't make one a hypernym of the other.

@JohanLarsson I guess there's even more value on SO, so if it hasn't been done yet, it's not going to be done ever.

Johan Larsson

@RegDwighт guess it has been suggested, you're probably right

RegDwighт

17

Q: Could we make tags imply other tags?

The prime example is C# and .Net. 95% of C# questions are also tagged .Net. The reverse isn't the case so it's not a synonym. Basically, C# is a child of .Net. Would it be possible to create some sort of one-way linkage like this?

6

Q: Add "tag categories"

Currently questions are added in a rapid pace to SO, so that new questions disappear very quickly from the homepage. It I want to see questions from my areas of interest I can do either: Go to the tagged/my tags page, but then I will see the questions only according to the votes Supply a list o...

feature-request status-declined stackoverflow tags tag-hierarchy

17

Q: A proposal for tag hierarchy on SO

Executive summary Introduction of a partial inheritance relation into the set of tags on SO, in order to allow more efficient question organization/filtering/tagging (especially via "Interesting"/"Ignored" mechanism). The proposal is designed to achieve its goals while adhering to two principle...

discussion feature-request tags tag-hierarchy

Status declined, status declined, status ignored for two years.

Johan Larsson

"we will not be doing trees, in any way, shape or form – Jeff Atwood♦ Jul 6 '09 at 15:30"

RegDwighт

3:23 PM

Hook, line, and sinker.

Except, of course, Jeff is no longer onboard.

tchrist

Sure he isn’t.

Johan Larsson

what, is he not the founder?

tchrist

He was a founder.

RegDwighт

He still is. Unless your name is Winston Smith.

tchrist

Funny how a Vespa has nothing to do with (most of?) vesper, vesperal, vesper-beauty, vesper-book, vesperian, vespering, vesper mouse, vesper music, vespers, vesper service, vespertilian, vespertilio, vespertilionid, vespertilionine, vespertilionize, vespertinal, vespertine, Vesperugo, vespery.

RegDwighт

3:25 PM

But he's no longer onboard.

Haha, Martha's question got a close vote.

tchrist

I saw that.

RegDwighт

How do you like them truces.

tchrist

It is Kris.

Of course.

RegDwighт

@Kris: eh? Are you making a lame attempt at a joke, or something? — Marthaª 1 min ago

Look at the time stamp. Telepathy.

tchrist

Bumped.

RegDwighт

3:29 PM

@tchrist doesn't count, it was still on the front page.

tchrist

Tag changes don’t count as edits for CW purposes, so are safe bumps.

RegDwighт

It doesn't matter anyway because you are not a new editor.

Not to mention that I will un-CW it on the spot.

tchrist

I’ve found other writers who are minused about Christmas Eve Eve.

Oh, you can do that? Good, I was wondering.

RegDwighт

There is such a thing?

tchrist

Depends whom you ask.

RegDwighт

3:31 PM

I mean, it's not even PIN Number. It's PI Number Number.

tchrist

@RegDwighт “Non est enim consilium in volgo, non ratio, non discrimen, non diligentia, semperque sapientes ea quae populus fecisset ferenda, non semper laudanda dixerunt.” —Gaius Tullius Cicero, Pro Plancio IV.

RegDwighт

In Volvo? Thanks, I'll take Audi.

tchrist

I didn’t know that vulvae came in the masculine.

Do you drive an Audi?

RegDwighт

> Il n’y a pas des sots si incommodes que ceux qui ont de l’esprit. — La Rochefoucauld

tchrist

Ciceronian translation: plebs are dumb.

RegDwighт

3:35 PM

@tchrist I don't have a license, a car, or a garage.

@tchrist same for the rochefoucauldian.

Which I guess is easier for you to figure out than Cicero for me.

tchrist

@RegDwighт What a simpler life that must be! And more frugal. And more healthy.

RegDwighт

And cheap as hell, too.

tchrist

ea < is - he/she/it/one ; indeclform; fem nom sg, neut nom pl, neut voc pl, neut acc pl, fem abl sg,
enim - for, in fact, truly
quae - who/what/which/how/whereby/why/
diligentia diligence, industry, perseverance, persistence.
consilium deliberation, consultation, assembly, council.
volgo < in vulgus (neut abl/dat sg indeclform)
ratio - accounting, reckoning, calculating
sapientes < sapiens: wise, knowing, sensible, well-advised, discreet, judicious
sapientês masc nom/voc/acc pl,

RegDwighт

Remember, around these parts it's US $8.5 per US gallon.

Not to mention the taxes on the car, and the insurance that is obligatory by law.

tchrist

We were smarting when it was hovering around a figure barely half that.

Of course insurance is obligatory by law. Is there a place where it is not?

RegDwighт

3:39 PM

I can't name any off the top of my head, if that's what you want, but there are plenty.

tchrist

I once did the Latin piecewise translation for non-Latinists above to help you parse things out in you were so inclined.

Well, not you you.

Noah

Hi

RegDwighт

And then the costs for the license itself, which is, I think, around a couple thousand Euro.

Hi and BBL

Noah

Nothing is obligatory. You just have to pay a little bit of extra if you want to buy or use something or anything in this case.

In the US two things are for sure: 1. Death, 2. Taxes

I think the first is more universal, but I am not sure about the second one.

@RegDwighт In the US you can get one for 25 bucks.

But you have to pass the test, of course.

RegDwighт

You can choose to have a life insurance or not have a life insurance. Likewise for liability, legal protection, disability, whatever. But as soon as you have a car, even if you don't drive, even if it's sitting in a garage 5000 miles away, you have to have a car insurance.

Why are you flagging yourself?

BBL

Noah

3:45 PM

@RegDwighт Becuase I regret what I have said.

Plus I like to use that feature and see if it's working.

tchrist

@RegDwighт I flagged myself? I haven’t flagged anyone at all for days, let alone myself.

Noah

@RegDwighт I am not sure if car inssurance is a must here in the US.

tchrist

Bill Franke must have taken exception at one of my comments. He’s awfully prickly today.

Noah

@tchrist How's that. He might be having a bad day in Taiwan.

tchrist

I find Christmas Eve Night to be a pleonasm for Christmas Eve. ’Twas the night before Christmas, and still is.

Noah

3:51 PM

I kind of hate these holidays. The stock market is closed and I can't make any money. The hell with this.

tchrist

@Noah It’s the same whether the market is open or closed: I still can’t make any money there.

Noah

I was charged a large sum of money by Skype. Had to deal with the guys for a couple of hours to get my money back. They said they have canceled the order but I dont see anything being refelcted in my account.

@tchrist Becuaes you can't doesnt mean everyone can't :)

Here comes a fox in socks.

Fox in socks

Hello :)

Noah

I have seen a puss in boots but not a fox in socks.

Hello @Foxinsocks

I don't what you are up to @tchrist. But you dont seem to be very active these couple of minutes.

I think I will have to call 911 to arrest you for ELU policy violation.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Chekhov wrote a story entitled “Easter Eve” about the night before Easter. I wonder how close the original Russian word maps to English eve.

Noah

4:06 PM

@JasperLoy That's not a sign. I can start counting and will get there in a few seconds. A sign would be more like you on the Ark with me. I will probably put you with reptiles and politicians.

@RegDwighт Yeah he fired himself.

@JasperLoy That's sad that you are taking rubbish.

RegDwighт

@tchrist litmir.net/bd/?b=72259

Literally, "In the Christmas night".

tchrist

Thanks.

Noah

I didnt know if Russian celberated xmas.

tchrist

Christmas night, not Easter for the Chekhov?

RegDwighт

Oops.

Hold on, then.

Hm.

So far I only see this:

That's "Holy night", in the instrumental case.

I skimmed the text, it takes place around Easter.

I read everything of Chekhov's as a child. Wish I remembered any of it.

tchrist

4:15 PM

The night of Holy Saturday, then.

RegDwighт

Two people waiting for the ferry.

tchrist

Better than the night of Holy/Good Friday.

Did Chekhov write children’s tales, too?

What does being in the instrumental case buy it? Implied preposition?

So like a built-in "on"?

RegDwighт

It's like locative, but for time.

Yes.

You do the same with "day", you get "during day time".

tchrist

Qui gladio ferit, gladio perit has the "with" build into that form of gladius, sword.

(He who by the sword lives/wounds, by the sword perishes.)

RegDwighт

With "morning" it's "in the morning".

tchrist

4:17 PM

I will do it tomorrow.

I will do it in March, or on Tuesday.

The Brits hate when we skip the preposition with days of the week.

RegDwighт

@tchrist I... I don't know. At any rate he wrote enough stuff that was interesting for children.

tchrist

We don’t skip it on months. "I’ll see you *July" is ungrammatical in both dialects, and all to the best of my knowledge.

RegDwighт

I know my mum had that Chekhov phase, too, when she was young.

tchrist

Did you have a Hesse phase, and if so, was it before, during, or after university?

RegDwighт

People just seem to naturally hit it at a certain point in their lives. An early point.

@tchrist I haven't read anything of Hesse's.

tchrist

4:19 PM

Oh. Thomas Mann?

Go away!

Hee. :)

No, God, no.

We had to read Hesse in high school. Mandatory.

In translation, natch.

RegDwighт

Our class read other things.

Kleist.

Kafka.

tchrist

4:20 PM

Ah, good.

RegDwighт

Um, Lessing.

Frisch.

tchrist

We had to read both Hesse and Mann in high school. Siddhartha and Demian. “Death in Venice”.

I only took Spanish lit in college, because I AP’d out of English and World lit.

It is normally mandatory.

RegDwighт

Then later if you had German as one of your exam subjects, you read Fontane.

We read poetry.

tchrist

Did a bit of lit in French 5. Poetry mostly.

And took an "Italian for Translators" course, which had a prereq of Italian 3 or some such.

RegDwighт

Hesse is pretty much mandatory, but so are a ton of others, so every batch gets to read something different.

I still have the books sitting right over there on the shelf, but I'm too lazy to stand up.

I remember Le Petit Prince and La Cantatrice Chauve from the French class.

In English we mostly read short stories.

Like that about the unicorn. Or some Joyce stuff. I think it was Joyce. Maybe.

tchrist

4:27 PM

Oh right. Le Petit Prince. Yep.

Joyce? Gosh, that was cruel.

RegDwighт

I also have Le bougeois gentilhomme, I think. Must have been French as well, obviously, but I don't really remember it. I just own the book and that's the only occasion I could have bought it for.

Or perhaps it had another play in it, and we read that one. No idea.

We read it in Russia, too.

I guess I even wrote an exam on it.

As Forrest Gump put it, "You know it's funny what a young man recollects?"

In the German translation it was, "You know it's funny how you remember some things but not others?"

tchrist

What a young man recollects is little.

As he has little enough laid up in store.

RegDwighт

Yeah but I'm applying it to me, right now.

I read so much stuff, and liked so much of it, but I only just realized how little I remember.

Dürenmatt. We also read Dürenmatt. The Visit.

And Brecht, The Good Person of Szechwan.

Anna Seghers, The Seventh Cross.

Bits and pieces.

Ask me what any of them was even about, and I will know little beyond what's already suggested in the title.

tchrist

That’s still quite a lot.

RegDwighт

I don't even remember Homo Faber much, even though I saw the Jeremy Irons movie several times.

And I liked that impossibly weird book.

tchrist

4:35 PM

I do not know it.

RegDwighт

I can recommend it, even with the little that I still remember. It's peculiar.

tchrist

We had to read Faulkner, which I disliked, and were very strongly encouraged to read Thoreau, which I at that time had only passing interest in.

"Very strongly encouraged" because we had a set of electives that we had to read so many points of in total, and Walden counted very high by point-count.

RegDwighт

That's a strange system.

tchrist

Hemmingway. Salinger.

RegDwighт

I think my wife read Hemmingway. In Russian, that is.

tchrist

4:38 PM

The point system was used in an odd double-course as juniors in high school. It was an honors course in American History and in American Literature, and met for double-time. Some of the lit was required, and some we could select from a set of electives.

RegDwighт

And they checked if you actually read it, how?

Every person gets a tailormade exam?

tchrist

One of the teachers was incredibly well-read, and he did a custom oral to spot check for honesty.

RegDwighт

I see. So much hinges on the teacher.

And yeah, I know, it kind of always does anyway.

tchrist

He was licensed by the state to teach secondary ed (junior and senior high) in English, history, social studies art, music, and a whole bunch more.

For my senior year, I broke with my peers and chose his "Humanities" course for history instead of the more honors-tracked "Contemporary American Problems", the very idea of which bored my to certain tears.

It covered philosophy, art, music, and literature, but almost all Western. Still.

So much more interesting than Contemp Am Probs.

RegDwighт

Contemporary American Problems. What a name.

tchrist

4:43 PM

How are our numbers doing today? Still atypical?

RegDwighт

They might as well have named it "In two years, nobody will care, so why the heck do you care now?"

tchrist

No shit.

Whereas what I studied was stuff of proven endurance.

We just had a question like this, which I even answered:

1

Q: Where shall I put the comma in this sentence?

I'm not sure whether I should write like this: Try A or, a more famous one, B. Or like this Try A, or, a more famous one, B. Or try other forms to avoid expression like this. Does anyone have ideas about this?

grammaticality punctuation comma

But I have to go to presents now.

RegDwighт

@tchrist same as yesterday. Would be considerably higher on a normal Tuesday.

David Wallace

@Reg Can you help me?

What's a really nice way to say hello in Russian?

RegDwighт

Mmmh. To whom?

David Wallace

4:46 PM

To a really nice Russian friend.

RegDwighт

In person? Writing?

David Wallace

Hah! My English vocabulary is so large, that I feel compelled to say "really nice" twice in two sentences.

In an email.

RegDwighт

Polite/formal or casual/intimate?

David Wallace

Casual. Slightly intimate but not too much so.

Kind of like "warmest greetings" or something.

RegDwighт

That's tough. But the time of the year is on our side, I suppose I would go with "С наступающим, [first name]!" right now. Literally, "To the approaching", implying the New Year.

Not really translatable. Very weird participle and case.

David Wallace

4:50 PM

OK, thanks, I'll give it a try.

RegDwighт

Do let me know how it turns out.

David Wallace

You say that as if you were not sure that it will turn out well.

RegDwighт

Haha, no, not that.

But it's not a greeting you pick up in a dictionary.

So you might get him by surprise.

David Wallace

He may indeed be surprised. OK, thank you for your help.

RegDwighт

It's friendly, and neither too formal nor too intimate.

No problem.

David Wallace

4:52 PM

Sounds perfect.

Good evening @Gigili - I was thinking about your question. The best I can come up with is that it depends on why the original was interesting.

Gigili

@RegDwighт Why didn't you say no problem in reply to me saying thank you?

@DavidWallace Hello, what do you mean?

David Wallace

Well, could it have been interesting because it was written untranslatably poetically?

If I translate something by Dante into English, it won't be as poetic as the original, right? Is that my fault?

So what was the essence of the original work's interestingness, and why did the translator fail to render such interestingness in the translated language? Without knowing that, it's hard to know how much is the translator's fault.

Hofstadter's book "Le Ton Beau de Marot" is almost entirely about this very question.

Gigili

@DavidWallace No, it's interesting because some sentences must be taken metaphorically but they're translated literally (one or two), and the way the game is described is way more interesting in the original text (I don't know why exactly, probably because of the words used in the two)

@DavidWallace It is.

David Wallace

By metaphorically, do you mean idiomatically?

RegDwighт

@DavidWallace definitely the latter. Лидия, Мария, Медея, Россия.

@Gigili sorry, I can supply it now if you wish. No problem!

Gigili

5:03 PM

@RegDwighт Zu spät!

David Wallace

@RegDwighт Does it have a different ending in the vocative?

RegDwighт

@Gigili Kein Problem!

Gigili

@DavidWallace No. By metaphorically, I mean metaphorically.

RegDwighт

@DavidWallace nope. I almost mentioned that.

I see you're covering all bases.

David Wallace

So how does translating a metaphor literally make it less of a metaphor?

My upstairs neighbour is a moron. His baby is crying, and he is yelling "shut up".

@RegDwighт I know just enough about Slavic languages to be dangerous.

Apr 9 at 0:28, by David Wallace

My problem with Russian is that the only things I know how to say are "yes", "no", "thank you", "good-bye" and "I'm fucking your mother". There's a limit to the conversational usefulness of this collection.

That counts as dangerous, right?

RegDwighт

5:09 PM

That counts as comprehensive.

David Wallace

You said something similar at the time, if I recall.

RegDwighт

Jul 16 at 13:36, by RegDwight ΒВB

Hey people if you make stuff up at least be consistent.

David Wallace

Apr 24 at 13:11, by RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

@Fx so what if he did? That would only make him consistent, giving his argument additional gravity.

RegDwighт

More to the point,

Sep 16 at 0:55, by David Wallace

@WillHunting Whenever Reg Dwight says anything, it's the second time he's said it.

Gigili

@DavidWallace I don't recall what the sentence exactly was, the game was called fruit slayer (translated into fruit killer which reminded me of a criminal person) or something and a sentence was about killing fruits right when they appear meaning to cut them. It was terribly translated that I didn't feel like trying the game but I felt so reading the original sentence.

Anyway, there are more important things in the world to worry about.

David Wallace

5:15 PM

So do you have a more poetic way of saying "killer" that would be parallel to "slayer"?

Or maybe they were making dessert, and it was supposed to be "fruits layer".

Gigili

Umm, what? I mean the word for killer in Persian, not killer itself.

David Wallace

@Gigili Well, obviously. But is there more than one word for "killer"? If there is only one, then I see no other way to translate "slayer".

Gigili

@DavidWallace Funny, funny! (she said with heavy irony)

David Wallace

Apr 2 at 4:49, by David Wallace

Irony used to be spelt "Irany", after the country in which it was invented. That's why our two friends here are both so good at it.

Gigili

@DavidWallace Umm, there are about seven words for it.

David Wallace

5:19 PM

So if you pick a really poetic one, can you do a better job of "fruit slayer"? Without making it sound like "vegetable assassin", or worse?

Gigili

Of course I can! That's why I was upset at the time I saw the translated text.

But I have to go now, Toodles.

David Wallace

So you already knew the answer to your question, I suppose, when you asked.

cornbread ninja

howdy and happy christmas

David Wallace

OK, bye, Gigili.

Hello Cornbread.

Umm, best regards for the holiday season.

@cornbreadninja Have you opened your presents yet?

Mahnax

5:37 PM

Happy Christmas to those who celebrate it, to the rest, happy holidays &c!

David Wallace

@Mahnax You too man. Wishing you a wonderful day.

Mahnax

@DavidWallace Thank you! It will be, and already has been for a few hours. Enjoy your time with your son, eh?

David Wallace

I do. It's remarkable how having less of something can make it seem more valuable.

Mitch

@DavidWallace I've heard that Omat Khayyam was a so-so poet in Persian, and FItzgerlad (or whatever his name is) was a so-so poet of his own original work. But that Fitzgerald's translation of the Rubaiyat into English was somehow much much better.

I've heard.

David Wallace

Hmm, teamwork. Like Gilbert and Sullivan.

Well, no, not very much like Gilbert and Sullivan at all.

Mitch

5:49 PM

@DavidWallace I was about to ask 'Really?' but then I looked it up.

David Wallace

:-)

Mitch

@DavidWallace Yeah, if Gilbert wrote in Farsi first.

David Wallace

and Sullivan for the Krummhorn.

Mitch

or the other one. I don't know. Also if Khayyam were an interior designer.

@DavidWallace I'd get that except I don't know much about G&S except what I know from not being in my 7th grade all boys production of Pirates of Penzance.

(I didn't know there were auditions!)

David Wallace

What a coincidence! I was also not in your 7th grade all boys production of Pirates of Penzance.

Mitch

5:54 PM

See!

cornbread ninja

Sorry, sorry! Happy holiday season.

@DavidWallace I've opened one.

Mitch

6:12 PM

@cornbreadninja Socks?

David Wallace

Ooh, can we play guess the present?

I was thinking jewellery for some reason.

... and she's gone. That's not going to make this game very interesting.

Mitch

Yeah..twenty-one questions with no yes or noes.

tchrist

@Mitch Why yes=1 but no=many?

cornbread ninja

6:45 PM

@DavidWallace go ahead

it is not socks.

oof, I have to leave for grandma's.

tchrist

6:58 PM

I’m sorry, but the inherent unkindness, unthinking and cruel, of this question really rubs me the wrong way, today on Christmas of all days:

-1

Q: what would you call a guy everybody picks on?

Let's say we have a guy who is stupid and weak and everybody picks on him and mocks him all the time. What would we call this guy? I found timid in the dictionary but I am looking for a colloquial word.

word-choice

Mitch

@tchrist the saxon ...uh... plural?

mothers-in-laws?

tchrist

That’s what I was thinking. It is quite curious.

No, mothers-in-law is altogether different.

Mutt and Jeff’s favorite hangout, however, is not.

Mitch

@cornbreadninja said le petit poule rouge.

@tchrist you mean like christmas is a thing? like the kidses say these days, why can't we all just get along...the rest of the effing year?

@cornbreadninja is that a good thing? Maybe you need socks? maybe they could be kick-ass socks like with little toe compartments like those goofy new track shoes.

@tchrist I distributed out the plural. reduces the complexity exponentially.

Meysam

hello what is the meaning of "intention" in this: "a soft sound though full of intention"

Mitch

7:43 PM

well, lots more context might help but 'though' tells you there is some kind of contrast. 'a soft sound' seems a bit timid, and 'full of intention' seems like there is a lot of intent behind the meek sound, the whole idea like an understatement, a raised eyebrow, a quietly cleared throat, a subtle glance that gives away the entire story.

tchrist

I must away, for time and tide wait for no man, least of all for this one.

tchrist

8:04 PM

Lord a good hat is hard to come by!

David Wallace

@cornbreadninja Don't get eaten by the big bad wolf.

@tchrist For all we know, this person is writing a work of fiction, and simply wants an accurate word to describe this person; not to pick on him himself.

Johan Larsson

8:22 PM

In Swedish there is an expression 'högt i tak', directly translated it means 'high ceilings'. The meaning in Swedish is that you can say whatever you want without being for example flagged. Is there an English counterpart?

simchona

You mean like "pardon my French"--"I swore but don't get mad at me for it"

?

David Wallace

I was thinking of something like "safe zone".

Johan Larsson

not quite, it is more like at this company we have 'high ceilings'

simchona

I'm not quite understanding the context, I think

David Wallace

Whatever you want in terms of making suggestions to management? Or whatever you want in terms of offensiveness to co-workers?

Johan Larsson

8:29 PM

ok, I'll try harder. It is a cliche. It could be used in a job ad to state that the company has a very open discussion climate.

@DavidWallace To all really, but it is a cliche so it does not mean much really

simchona

proz.com/kudoz/swedish_to_english/business_commerce_general/…

Johan Larsson

I feel like I failed to give context

simchona

This suggested "relaxed" or "open-minded"

Johan Larsson

ok

simchona

Based on what you've said, I'd use "relaxed atmosphere"

David Wallace

8:32 PM

Or "environment of honesty".

BTW, hello Simchona, I don't seem to have seen you for a very long time. I hope you're enjoying the festive season and having a wonderful day.

Johan Larsson

@simchona yes, that is better than open-minded. Open-minded really sounds like a cliche that does not have much meaning left, just a faint positive ring.

@DavidWallace that is good too

My question was out of curiosity, had a feeling I had heard a translation that I had forgotten

David Wallace

I find such phrases a little scary. There are always limits, and I would rather know where they really lie.

Johan Larsson

@DavidWallace I don't like that type of phrases either, I dislike corporate speak in general. The limits are probably hard to write down though.

David Wallace

Kind of like I'm expecting someone to say "well, David, we know we SAID you could say whatever you like, but now the CEO feels you don't respect him, so we're going to have to let you go".

Johan Larsson

You have probably seen the corporate speak language, I was amused though.

@DavidWallace I'm not sure it would be possible to say things that would lead to you being fired in Sweden. Of course threatening or breaking the law in other ways would be enough. But I don't think disrespecting would be enough to legally fire someone. Of course it could always be called something else and result in the same.

David Wallace

8:44 PM

Yes. If you annoy the wrong people, I could imagine them finding a way to get rid of you. It might just be trying to make your life unpleasant, so that you choose for yourself to leave.

In New Zealand, it's extremely difficult to fire someone too. The most common way is to restructure the organisation so that the person's job no longer exists. But doing that is expensive.

However, I'm self-employed, so firing me is as simple as not giving me any more work.

Johan Larsson

@DavidWallace yes, that is an entirely different situation. Are you a programming consultant?

David Wallace

Yes, I guess that would be one way to describe me.

Oh, now the baby upstairs is crying again, and the mother is telling him/her to "shut up".

In New Zealand, much of the programming work is project based; so the organisation won't want to have to continue supplying the programmers with work once the project is complete. So they hire contractors like me, instead of permanent staff. That also has the benefit that if the project is cancelled, they can get rid of the people immediately.

The trade-off for the lack of job security is that we get paid almost twice as much as employed programmers.

Johan Larsson

that is good, fun work too. More dev less maintenance?

David Wallace

So provided I work for 7 months or more a year, I'm better off than I would be if I had a permanent job.

Yes, true.

But because of the pay difference, the best programmers choose to be self-employed, rather than permanent staff. So organisations know that if they want the job done right, they should hire contractors.

Johan Larsson

I'm the sole owner of a huge mountain of technical debt.

David Wallace

8:51 PM

@JohanLarsson Right. Understood. Is your organisation letting you do something about it? Or are you expected to live with it?

Johan Larsson

I can't tell much this public but I can say I really like my job, but feel I must have a bag packed if the debt bomb explodes.

A little like in the movie heat, "you got to be ready to leave instantly if you spot the heat around the corner" or something like that

David Wallace

If that's a real danger, then I think you should start looking round for another job immediately. If the bomb explodes while you're holding it, it could tarnish your professional reputation even if it's not your fault.

And it's easier to find work when you've already got a job.

Johan Larsson

@DavidWallace that is good advice, the only problem is that I really like my current. Don't think I will find anything better

David Wallace

You don't know unless you look. What could be the harm?

Johan Larsson

ok, true

Out of curiosity, why did you convert to Islam?

(read it in transcript)

David Wallace

9:13 PM

@JohanLarsson Wow. Umm, I don't want to answer that question here. Firstly because it's quite a long story, and secondly because ...