English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

1:00 PM

It was below the belt, but hey at least it hit home.

Robusto

I refute it thus:

►

RegDwight

@Cerberus That left me wondering as well, as Martha never objected to that blonde bimbo confusing Hungary for hungry.

See? It's a conspiracy. As long as it is an American woman, she may do whatever she wants.

Cerberus

@Rob: That'll teach her.

@Reg: Oh I vaguely remember that joke.

RegDwight

It wasn't even a joke. She was earnest.

That makes it even worse.

Cerberus

Really? Oh I often forget the essence of jokes and whatnot.

You mean, *better.

Robusto

1:03 PM

I take it that clip is banned in @RegDwight's miserable country.

Cerberus

Hey I just read a top on that:

RegDwight

@Robusto No. But I have no sound.

@Cerberus Just look at this:

Feb 11 at 15:20, by RegDwight

But I am hungry!

Cerberus

If you post a YT link on Facebook, anyone can watch it regardless, even if you post and watch it on your own Facebook page. Needless to say, you can just make a fake FB page for that.

RegDwight

I then post that video, and Martha immediately replies with a... "But it's fun!"

Not "omg that's so awful", but "it's fun".

No thwacks anywhere to be seen.

Robusto

OK, here it is for the hearing-impaired: ""Women can do anything men can do...except math, chess, running, jumping, lifting stuff, fixing things, making money, hockey, surfing, driving, making decisions, tipping, fishing, being funny on purpose, reading a map, running the country, inventing anything important or just being generally fun to hang out with. Don't get me wrong, I love women...they should just drink from a separate water fountain." --Daniel Tosh

2

@RegDwight — And bring a freakin' set of earbuds to work with you next time. Sheesh ...

RegDwight

1:08 PM

@Robusto I have no sound.

As in, the machine has no sound output.

I have speakers and earbuds and whatnot.

Robusto

Wow. I didn't realize your country was so poor it couldn't even afford sound.

Cerberus

I can hardly believe that this bimbo was real.

Robusto

I'm very sorry for you, dude. Should we organize a care package or something?

Cerberus

Who would ever subject himself to such humiliations?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Not only real, she's immensely popular and successful. She's a millionaire.

F'x

1:09 PM

@RegDwight I think it's worse, then: you bring earbuds and speakers to a machine that has no sound output?

Cerberus

So is she doing it on purpose?

Robusto

Wait ... when I was in Germany I could definitely hear things. I think you're not telling the entire truth here.

RegDwight

@Robusto Who said I was anywhere near Germany? That's what you keep thinking. And I keep being entertained by that.

Cerberus

I suppose humiliating oneself on television has become a mainstream genre. Still doesn't make it logical.

Robusto

You mean you're in Russia? You could have lived in the Vaterland and you chose Rodina instead? Wow, talk about bad choices ...

Cerberus

1:11 PM

Russia is not +1.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Well, what if you don't realize that you're being humiliated?

Mar 15 at 19:44, by RegDwight

"Stupidity is a natural gift, too."

Cerberus

@Reg: Do you really think so? Knowing less than a young kid?

Robusto

But that explains the lack of sound, I guess. I've never been to Russia, but it wouldn't surprise me if you couldn't get sound there.

RegDwight

@Cerberus Russia is over +9000.

Cerberus

@Reg: Right. So not +1.

Robusto

1:12 PM

@RegDwight — And even Liechtenstein is over 10K.

Cerberus

Wait...

Not hours, not miles, not km...

RegDwight

@Cerberus Watch the video again. Where, exactly, does she appear humiliated at all?

Robusto

@RegDwight: Are you on one of those laptops you have to crank for power every 5 minutes or so?

Cerberus

@Reg: I am not sure, but she might have been choosing attack as her best defense whenever she felt humiliated.

Robusto

The kind we were giving away to kids in Ethiopia?

RegDwight

1:13 PM

@Robusto I'm posting this from your backyard, you genius. And you blame me for not having sound in this backwards place?

Robusto

@Cerberus — Not a wise policy. Like kicking the coffee table in your bare feet because you stubbed your toe on it.

Coffee table wins every freakin' time.

Cerberus

@Rob: True. And yet we do it.

RegDwight

@Robusto Yes. Especially when it plays chess against a woman.

Robusto

Well, at that point it becomes a manhood thing. Sometimes you can't back down from naked aggression. Even when you're naked yourself.

Cerberus

I used to have a babysitter who had thrown her SNES out of the window twice out of frustration. The second time, the window was closed.

Robusto

1:16 PM

SNES?

F'x

Super Nintendo Entertainment System

The Super Nintendo Entertainment System (also known as the Super NES, SNES or Super Nintendo) is a 16-bit video game console that was released by Nintendo in North America, Europe, Australasia (Oceania), and South America between 1990 and 1993. In Japan and Southeast Asia, the system is called the , or SFC for short. In South Korea, it is known as the Super Comboy (슈퍼 컴보이) and was distributed by Hyundai Electronics. Although each version is essentially the same, several forms of regional lockout prevent the different versions from being compatible with one another. The Super Nintendo Ent...

RegDwight

Super Nintendo Entertainment System.

Super Famicom.

Cerberus

Superrrr Nintendo Entertainment System!

RegDwight

Jinx

Robusto

Ah.

F'x

1:16 PM

the thing was heavy enough to actually break windows :)

Cerberus

Right, Famicom! That was the NES, right?

It was.

RegDwight

Yup.

Robusto

I am not familiar with such ancient technology. Pray tell, what archeological dig did you unearth yours from?

Cerberus

Good times.

RegDwight

Oh yes. Secret of Mana!

Cerberus

1:17 PM

The garbage pile beneath my babysitter's window.

Yes Secret of Mana!!

That was great.

And don't forget Mario Kart.

RegDwight

It still is. I play it on my Xbox.

Cerberus

Really? Cool.

I have never owned anything but the first Gameboy.

Wasn't allowed to.

RegDwight

Well, the first Gameboy kicked huge ass, you don't really need anything else.

Cerberus

My parents just thought a smaller machine would be less threatening. Boy didn't they have a clue.

I know!

Mystic Quest?

RegDwight

Ohhhhhh....

Yeaaaaahhhh....

Zelda, of course.

Cerberus

1:20 PM

Pretty much as good as Mana.

Yes, Zelda!

RegDwight

Super Mario Land. With no numbers attached.

Cerberus

Tatanga!

RegDwight

Geez, I am old.

Cerberus

Well then so am I.

Remember Tatanga?

RegDwight

At least we are not as old as Robusto.

Cerberus

1:21 PM

Aren't we? Thank God...

RegDwight

@Cerberus Only vaguely, as I never owned that one myself.

Cerberus

Tatanga was the final boss in Super Mario I on the Gameboy.

Robusto

@RegDwight — "And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

RegDwight

@Cerberus Oh. Wait a sec. Then I'm confusing it with something else.

Cerberus

@Reg: Don't worry. It isn't as bad as Hungry.

RegDwight

1:22 PM

You misspelled good.

Cerberus

For whom the Bell tolls... still reminds me of Metallica.

I believe they took that line from a well-known source I am not very familiar with, like the Bible?

RegDwight

I am a bit proud of the fact that nothing in this world ever reminds me of Metallica.

Cerberus

Hey, how do you do that?

RegDwight

What? The upside-down b?

Cerberus

Haha yes that!

Or having nothing remind you of M.

RegDwight

1:25 PM

I take a b and turn it upside down.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Roderigo y Gabriela have a song on their first album that reminds me a great deal of Metallica. It's called 'Orion' ...

Cerberus

Oh, right!

RegDwight

If you do it correctly, you won't be reminded of Metallica. At all.

Cerberus

Orion! I remember that was a great song.

RegDwight

@Robusto Orion reminds me of MiB.

Cerberus

1:25 PM

Who?

RegDwight

@Cerberus Smith. Jones.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight: So what is the "it's them/they who are lying" issue?

Cerberus

I remember Orion and Fade to Black were my favourite songs at one time or another.

Smith? Jones?

RegDwight

15 hours ago, by RegDwight

For those who feel they are a bit late to the party, here's a handy link to the beginning of the discussion:

16 hours ago, by RegDwight

This is another question that just won't stop popping up:

Men in Black

Men in Black (MIB), in popular culture and in UFO conspiracy theories, are men or aliens dressed in black suits who claim to be government agents who harass or threaten UFO witnesses to keep them quiet about what they have seen. It is sometimes implied that they may be aliens themselves. The term is also frequently used to describe mysterious men working for unknown organizations, as well as to various branches of government allegedly designed to protect secrets or perform other strange activities. The term is a generic one, used to refer to any unusual, threatening or strangely behaved ...

Cerberus

@Kos: MrHen was wondering whether it should be "them" or "they", and how he could reason his way up to a definitive answer.

RegDwight

1:27 PM

@Cerberus Nonono, just let him read that thread.

Cerberus

@Reg: Ah! Haven't seen that film (surprise!).

Kosmonaut

These people are using the wrong logic.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Who? Them were like fifteen people involved.

Cerberus

Awww... we can't torture Kos so much... the discussion took several hours.

Kosmonaut

I see three answers on that "they who lied" question

RegDwight

1:28 PM

Well, it appears that he's pulling a JSBangs anyhow.

14 hours ago, by JSBangs

you're all totally wrong, here's how it really works

Cerberus

Hehe.

I love me some JSBangs.

Kosmonaut

The subordinate clause is a red herring.

Cerberus

Even nohat jumped in with a functionalist explanation.

@Kos: Agreed!

I said the relative clause was irrelevant.

And that "they" is traditional, "them" most common.

Kosmonaut

So the question is, "it is they" or "it is them", which is right?

Cerberus

I didn't think there was more to it, but people weren't satisfied.

Kosmonaut

1:30 PM

The answer is, in actual usage, them, but some people want to use they.

Cerberus

@Kos: Exactly.

"Actual usage" being that of the great majority, but not of all speakers.

Kosmonaut

There are enough people using they that you can argue it is a legitimate alternative way to express this.

But it is not the primary way.

Cerberus

Yeah. Besides, I think this question was about writing, not speaking?

In writing, the minority is significant.

Kosmonaut

The reason that "who lied" is a red herring is because who is the subject of the subordinate clause.

RegDwight

I have no idea who said what (except that Martha argued in favor of they), but I just remembered that I had actually said this way before the whole discussion took place:

Mar 17 at 19:15, by RegDwight

We shouldn't assume that if they are not doing something obvious to us, it's them who is stupid and us who are smart.

kiamlaluno

1:32 PM

(I was starting to think that "it's me" was wrong.)

Cerberus

Yeah that's what I said.

RegDwight

And this is how I would still say it.

Cerberus

Say or write?

Kosmonaut

should be "who are stupid"

Robusto

@RegDwight — As my AP English teacher in high school used to say, "Approach any piece of literature with the assumption that the author is at least as smart as you are."

RegDwight

1:32 PM

@Kosmonaut Yes, apart from that one, obviously.

That was a typo, I was in rage.

As usual.

Cerberus

Oh, were you in rage?

RegDwight

31 secs ago, by RegDwight

As usual.

Robusto

@RegDwight — And, of course, "in a rage" is the non-native speaker's way of saying "enraged" ...

kiamlaluno

(What's about "I am in range?")

RegDwight

@Robusto No. "In rage" is the native speaker's way of misspelling "enraged".

Note how there is no "a".

Robusto

1:34 PM

Also a possibility.

It's hard to tell with you non-natives.

You just pour out a stream of words and invite the listener to pick out the ones that may mean something in English.

Cerberus

(At that moment, I was hoping that my questions should not be regarded as doubt about the skills of the Japanese workers, but just as questions...)

Kosmonaut

There is good evidence that English uses accusative as the default case, as nohat has also pointed out on several occasions.

RegDwight

@Robusto That's the thing. You would be cutting me much more slack if I were a native speaker.

@Robusto See how often you had to edit that sentence?

Cerberus

@Kos: Agreed. But there is also good evidence that people consciously change the way they use their own language.

Robusto

@RegDwight — I'm under a handicap here. I have to actually pretend to be working. Sheesh, cut me some slack, willya?

RegDwight

1:36 PM

@Robusto No. Quid pro quo.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus: Well, if there is an answer to any English grammar question, we have to base it on something.

I think usage is the fairest way to do that.

Others appeal to a grammar authority — I don't really go for that.

Cerberus

@Kos: Or we could just give several answers?

Robusto

19 hours ago, by Robusto

I generally call the Grammar Police.

Cerberus

As PLL has said, a good prescriptivist answer is very close to a good descriptivist answer.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus As I originally said, usage dictates "them" but some minority uses "they", enough that you can argue it is a legitimate alternative form.

But anyone using "they" should be aware that they are not doing anything more "correctly".

Robusto

1:39 PM

@Kosmonaut — Well, anything may be fair game in chat and blog posts, but I bet you wouldn't put such things in a research paper and simply append a "descriptivist" disclaimer at the end.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto I'm not sure I get what you mean.

I wouldn't need to post that sentence about "correctness" because, in my field, it is taken for granted that there is no objectively "right" way to do things, but only what happens.

Robusto

I mean there are levels of language (including rules of grammar that may seem prescriptivist) which educated speakers and writers are expected to use.

Kosmonaut

Yeah, and I think I've even talked about those. Nothing wrong with that.

We even have them in our own field.

"It is they" could be one of those things, for a certain audience.

RegDwight

So, how about wrapping it all up as an answer to that question?

Right now I am not satisfied with the answers. At all.

Robusto

@RegDwight — What, are your fingers broken?

Kosmonaut

1:43 PM

I always get so tired by the time I get to the end of the Chat discussions that I don't feel like it, but this time I'll try to actually post something.

Cerberus

Arg. What a coincidence that my connection should give up at this moment.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Much appreciated.

Cerberus

@Kos: As we have already agreed on before, I think it is just a difference of emphasis.

RegDwight

@Robusto I'm not in a position to post an answer.

Robusto

Wll, I would hlp out but th "m" and "e" on y kboard ar brokn.

Cerberus

1:44 PM

Aww...

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I would say that it is a difference of sociolinguistic subgroups.

Robusto

And sometimes "y" and "w" ...

RegDwight

@Robusto And "i" and "a", for all I can see.

Cerberus

@Kos: No, I mean, saying "most people use x, but x is considered wrong by some groups you might be interested in" is the same as saying "x is grammatical, though some groups have different practices".

I thought all keys on Rob's keyboard were broken, considering what he usually types...

RegDwight

@Cerberus Yeah, I know. 300+ rubbishes per day, now that is something.

Cerberus

1:48 PM

Hehe, times the average number of letters in each of his words, which would probably average, what, 3?

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Yeah, if I understand you right, then that sounds logical to me.

RegDwight

@Cerberus That actually reminds me of the fact that Ed Guiness has taken the lead from mmyers, according to the latest dump.

He only needs 11 keystrokes per rep point. Mmyers need 12.

Martha

I would like to register a complaint. The temperature is at an unacceptably low level for this time of year, and there are little evil white flaky things falling from the sky.

Cerberus

What, are there stats on that?

RegDwight

Mar 9 at 13:16, by RegDwight

Complaints are to be filed over ------> there

Cerberus

1:51 PM

@Martha: Noted. You may get a blue form from the North Pole department. The counter is attached to the pole.

RegDwight

@Cerberus data.stackexchange.com/english/qt/14534/…

Cerberus

@Reg: Ah, interesting... so what do I use as User Link? Http?

RegDwight

Huh?

Cerberus

> Select u.Id As [User Link],

Nothing?

Martha

@RegDwight (Re: blond bimbo and lack of objection from me: That's because I never watch the videos people post to chat. I have since seen that clip, and it's appalling, but then you knew that.)

RegDwight

1:53 PM

@Cerberus I'm not sure what your question is. But that syntax is special.

Feb 2 at 19:57, by nohat

i'm not even sure i want to know how that works

Cerberus

@Reg: I press "query", and I get a bad text file with nearly nothing. So I need to substitute some User Link... but in what format?

RegDwight

Wait what?

I click on the link, I see the query plus the results.

Martha

@Cerberus, it works for me.