English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

8:00 PM

Hmm. Looks like Mythology is no more...

Maybe I dreamt it.

What's your question anyway?

Carlo_R.

@Zairja I suggest you to ask on skeptics.SE. Maybe they have some claim on that.

David Wallace

Every part of mythology was dreamed up by somebody. It may as well have been you, @KitFox.

KitFox

I thought we all knew it was.

Zairja

@Carlo_R. I'm sure they do ;b

Matt Эллен

@KitFox you have interesting factoids about all the major players, anyway

Carlo_R.

8:04 PM

For example, some days ago I posted a question on phisich.

KitFox

Damn it. I'm coming down with hand-foot-and-mouth disease. I can feel it.

Carlo_R.

And they tell me an answer.

RegDwighт

0

A: Should I put a comma before the last item in a list?

The preferred style in the US is to always use the serial comma; elsewhere, it is less common, particularly in the UK. Choosing not to use the serial comma has little benefit other than reducing the number of marks on the page, whereas its omission has two notable drawbacks. More thinking requi...

Why do people think we need this?

Carlo_R.

@Zairja

1

A: Can a man fall faster than the speed of sound?

Hopefully we'll know in very short time (countdown / live broadcast): BBC News reports: The Austrian skydiver Felix Baumgartner will attempt to become the first human to break the sound barrier unaided by a vehicle. He is going to jump out of a balloon at more than 120,000ft (36.5km) ...

Matt Эллен

@KitFox oh dear. lots of rest for you, then.

KitFox

8:05 PM

@MattЭллен Well, when you've been around as long as I have, you can't really help it.

Carlo_R.

On that question I get 8 upvotes. A dream on ELU today.

Zairja

@Carlo_R. Today's attempt was cancelled by high winds! >_<

@Carlo_R. Also, I vote as much as I can. I'm trying to vote more, especially on questions for that Electorate badge.

Carlo_R.

@Zairja I think you are some of the best recent users.

The problem is that nowaday gain points on ELU is more difficult than in the past.

David Wallace

How is that a problem?

RegDwighт

Some questions should be blocked for everyone below OVER 9000 reps.

Others, for everyone above OVER 9000 reps.

David Wallace

8:09 PM

@RegDwighт Asking them or answering them?

RegDwighт

Yes.

Carlo_R.

It is not a problem, but a part of the game.

Zairja

@Carlo_R. Thanks. I don't mind that it's hard(er?) to get points or badges. I just wish I could ask more interesting questions and answer the ones I find interesting (but are usually out of my depth).

KitFox

@Carlo_R. What about terminal velocity? What about friction?

Carlo_R.

I hope "part" is the right word!

Cerberus

8:11 PM

@Zairja So what would you like to know about mythology? Not that I know that much about it, but I could look it up...

Zairja

@cerberus *Slowly writing up the question. A bit occupied atm. I might have it out in 15 mins or so. I'll @ you.

Carlo_R.

@Zairja You have done a grat answer on "Global English". I think that after that you do not need to ask other questions.

:) kit

Cerberus

OK.

David Wallace

@KitFox The point is that you start where the atmosphere is much thinner, so terminal velocity is much higher.

You'll actually slow down after a while.

KitFox

@DavidWallace Yeah, but the record for that is 614 mph.

I wonder what the acceleration is.

David Wallace

8:14 PM

Oh, don't make me do maths. What's that in metres per second?

Carlo_R.

@Zairja may I ask you why you have deleted that question on "Global English"

KitFox

@DavidWallace 988 km/h.

Carlo_R.

9,81 m/s^2

David Wallace

umm, about 270 or 280 m/s that would be?

KitFox

@Carlo_R. That's g-force.

David Wallace

8:16 PM

So quite a bit less than the speed of sound.

Oh, but the speed of sound is also lower if the air is thinner.

The way I see it, so long as you start high enough, it MUST be possible.

KitFox

Yeah, about 300km/h slower than the speed of sound.

Carlo_R.

Whitout friction g-force and acceleration are the same

F=ma

David Wallace

@KitFox About half that I think.

KitFox

@DavidWallace But can you breathe at that height? I suppose he can wear warm clothes and bring pressurized oxygen.

Zairja

@Carlo_R. I can't find it. It was probably because it had negative votes. :b

David Wallace

8:18 PM

@KitFox Or hold his breath for 20 seconds or so.

Zairja

@Carlo_R. I prune my posts, comments, etc.

Cerberus

@Carlo_R. Only on the earth's surface.

Carlo_R.

Where F=mg, mg=ma, g=a (Galileo docet)

KitFox

@DavidWallace Seems like he would freeze.

David Wallace

@Carlo_R. But friction is the most important part of the equation.

Carlo_R.

8:19 PM

@cer yes

David Wallace

Saying that g-force and acceleration are the same is like saying it wouldn't take me long to mow my lawn if I wasn't growing any grass in my yard.

Carlo_R.

@david yes, you are right.

David Wallace

@KitFox He won't be up there very long. You could survive in a walk-in freezer for 90 seconds, right?

Even without any clothes?

KitFox

@DavidWallace How high is he going to be?

Cerberus

The thing is that air friction is fairly small at walking speed, but it becomes huge at such large speeds; at some point it will equal m*g.

David Wallace

8:21 PM

@KitFox That's a good idea. He could smoke a whole lot of pot before he starts.

Carlo_R.

Really F was equal to md2(x)+cd(x)+vx

Where, as you say, cd(x) is the most important term

KitFox

> The list includes temperatures well below freezing, too little oxygen to breathe, the tendency to spin uncontrollably and air pressure so low that without protection blood is said to "boil" with vapor bubbles.

Carlo_R.

Hence we have md2(x)+... = mg

KitFox

redbullstratos.com/science/speed-of-sound

So. Kinda what I was thinking. Along with the shock impact, but apparently that's nominal.

David Wallace

Hmm, boiling blood sounds nasty.

Carlo_R.

8:23 PM

But my age impedes me to remember what I was thought at the university.

David Wallace

So he'd need some kind of pressure suit.

KitFox

> an innovative full-pressure suit and helmet provide oxygen, protection and pressurization,

Ah HA! so I was right.

David Wallace

Why don't they just use a dummy?

Carlo_R.

And in my life I worked as civil enginer

David Wallace

I wonder what it feels like to make your own sonic boom.

Carlo_R.

8:24 PM

So i'm unconfortable with phisics

KitFox

@DavidWallace I think they are.

rimshot

Because then Red Bull wouldn't sponsor it.

Looks like temperatures are only around -30C at 120,000 ft.

David Wallace

It sounds like the cold will be the least of his worries.

I would be worried about my parachute not providing enough deceleration.

KitFox

Well, he'll be famous either way, so I guess I can claim to have sexual relations with him.

Carlo_R.

@zairja however, if you wish, you can ask me some mytologi question

David Wallace

You can claim to have had sexual relations with whomever you like.

KitFox

8:29 PM

@DavidWallace I would be worried about barfing and-or peeing in my special suit.

Carlo_R.

I studied odissea and eneide

KitFox

@DavidWallace I am aware of that. And frequently do.

That's kinda my point there.

David Wallace

@KitFox I was thinking the same thing. I was going to say "I would probably poo myself".

Hadn't thought about barfing though.

KitFox

Having the ground come up at me that fast would make me sick, I'm pretty sure.

David Wallace

It's the acceleration, not the speed, that would make you sick.

And some peeing would be inevitable.

Mitch

8:31 PM

@KitFox from that high up, you hardly notice the speed, the ground hardly looks like it is getting bigger.

do meteors break the sound barrier?

David Wallace

@Mitch Yes, I'm pretty sure.

meteorobs.org/maillist/msg26903.html

So, yes, they go MUCH faster than sound.

Mitch

I wonder if they make a shock wave in the thinner atmosphere at which they are exceeding that particular density's speed of sound.

David Wallace

I thought you get the shock wave when you EITHER accelerate OR decelerate through the sound barrier.

They're going so much faster than sound that they're not going to cross the sound barrier till they land.

I feel a question for physics.stackexchange.com coming on.

Carlo_R.

@david yes, but we have another problem

What type of aeromobile can go at 36000 meters

How they open the door at 36000 meters without explosion of the aeromobile

Mitch

@DavidWallace is it -crossing- the sound barrier that produces a shock wave? I would think you'd get a compression wake of dense air by an object that goes through the air at faster than sound speed, wthere it accelerates through it or not.

Carlo_R.

8:41 PM

It seems thet the jump have this altitude

David Wallace

Maybe they don't open the door. Maybe they go up with him strapped to the wing or something.

@Mitch Yes, I suppose you must.

Carlo_R.

:) kit

David Wallace

@KitFox If you ever attempt it, I shall NOT stand underneath you.

Mitch

@DavidWallace bodies fall faster than vomit. either way, step aside before it hits.

Zairja

@Kitfox @Cerberus 1st part of question
We (or at least I) generally think of Greeks as believing in gods the same way modern theists believe in god(s). I grew up on Bulfinch's Mythology and later in life spent way too much time looking at all the myriad "lesser" deities. There were several things I started to wonder about.

First, how did the Greek language differentiate between a god's name and whatever that god embodied. For instance, "Nyx" is translated as "night". Would it be like me saying, "I worship Night"? It often seems to me that the gods are simply abstractions or metaphors (thei…

David Wallace

8:49 PM

@Mitch Even after she pulls the parachute cord? Wouldn't the vomit catch up to her?

@Zairja I wonder how it might be possible to know the answer to such a question.

Zairja

So, if anyone knows some good texts that look at the practices and beliefs of Greeks, I think that'd be a good start for me. I'm not talking about the usual "they [who are 'they'] believed the Titans did such and such" and so forth. I want to know who "they" were and how the beliefs evolved. What "religious" texts were written and were they distributed and picked up by folks? And so on and so on. . .

I think the "stories" are well-known in the same way everyone knows what Mohamed or Jesus or Moses did, but it doesn't tell you how people interpret these stories or how it affects their daily lives. Some people build shrines and go on pilgrimages whereas others are "flippant". I assume something similar would've existed in Greek times, but I'd like to know what sort of studies may have been done (looking at surviving texts, biographical or fictional).

David Wallace

That could be right up @Cerberus' alley.

Zairja

At any rate, I'm jumping out of chat, but I'll be back in 30 mins and will review any responses to this wall of text. Thanks to anyone looking at it. Also, maybe the answer is I just need to take a course on Greek mythology and re-read a bunch of Plato's texts in a new light, but then why am I paying for the Internet?! :b

tchrist

9:10 PM

-2

A: Difference between “laconic” and “concise”?

vshndurb vbvbdtfgtfvwtrgftgtgrtfgrrftgrgygydhdhy6ygtrgffgyyfh7y77 fuutyt7yu5j63y56rgtfgr2t4gtg6e

Cerberus

@Zairja Excellent questions.

tchrist

keeel eeet

Cerberus

For one thing, religion in Ancient Greece was very different from the Abrahamic religions. Theology, for example, barely existed. Philosophers debated the existence of the gods or the divine, and what stuff they were made of; but I know of no theological debates regarding specific hierarchies, religious rules, or other orthodoxies.

There was no notion that by having a different opinion on the way the gods operated constituted blasphemy, for example, unless you went to extremes, such as denying the entire existence of the gods.

Secondly, the world of Antiquity carried over much from our animist past: in a way, gods and the divine were everywhere around us, and in anything. At the same time, they were the abstract essence of things. Plato's "ideas/images" reflect this much older cultural notion.

So "night" was at the same time the observable phenomenon, the abstract concept of it, a personified metaphor used rhetorically, an entertaining persona to be used in mythical stories, and a divine persona that you might erect an altar for and pray to.

Every person probably partook in several of these perspectives at different times, and no doubt some people used a certain perspective more often than others. Many philosophers tended to believe in some divine essence, and they would not have taken the divine persona very seriously. They might pray at the altar as a symbolic deed, but they would not expect any message to reach a conscious person.

I think true personification was more popular among people of lower education (just as now, but even more so then). But even of little education probably did not believe in any gods in such a personal manner as Christians did/do.

Then there is the matter of different kinds of gods. The great gods at the centre of the pantheon, like Zeus, Apollo, and Aphrodite, were offered sacrifices on a much more regular basis, and they were perhaps seen as persons in more contexts than those deities that were mainly metaphorical or essences, like Night.

So there was a lot of variantion per person and per occasion.

As to names, I believe "night" and "Night" were only distinguished by context (no distinctive capital). In some contexts, "nux" was just the darkness; in others, she might be hailed as a rhetorical figure of speech; in others again, she might serve as a mythological actor who could actually "do" things.

The senses tended to blend together.

David Wallace

9:26 PM

@Cerberus What kinds of sacrifices?

Cerberus

Just as we can see "love is an interesting emotion", "oh love, why have you abandoned me?", and "love is a cruel mistress", except that we would probably stop there, and the Greeks would occasionally take it one step further.

@DavidWallace Anthing from honey to bulls.

Human sacrifices only occurred in legends, and even there they were seen as cruel and rare.

Like the sacrifice of Iphigenia.

David Wallace

You take honey from bees so you can give it to gods? And how does one give honey to a god, exactly?

(If these gods existed, which, I claim they don't).

Cerberus

@DavidWallace You probably leave it in a cup on the altar. The priests would probably take it away later and do something useful with it. Or it might be burned. But bull meat was commonly distributed and feasted on by everyone after the sacrifice.

@DavidWallace That was really a necessary caveat!

> If someone said, "Bacchus is speaking through me", would they have meant they were literally possessed (as some Christians may claim) or was it a euphemism for the "spirit" of drunkeness (e.g. if I say "she was in good spirits," I don't mean she was inhabited by benign supernatural entities).

David Wallace

@Cerberus Hah! (re the bull meat) That's not a sacrifice! In New Zealand, we call that a barbecue.

Cerberus

They could have meant literal possession by the mostly-beyond-understanding entity "Bacchus", or just metaphorically "drunk", or, more likely, something in between.

@DavidWallace Well, there you go.

David Wallace

9:33 PM

I guess it's like Hare Krishna followers offering all their food to their (so-called) deity before they eat it.

Cerberus

It is not that different from the Abrahamic religions, where slaughtering a large animal is an important occasion, to be done according to divine rules; probably partly because it was expensive, and the social occasion (the eating of the meat at a banquet) was also an important event.

David Wallace

Right. I guess I'm used to "sacrificing" something meaning you don't have it any more.

Cerberus

You're like the MAFIAA's claiming that downloading is "stealing"!

tchrist

Divine rules?

David Wallace

@Cerberus Am I? Downloading the meat from the altar after it's already been given to some perceived deity?

tchrist

9:39 PM

Paul talks about this.

David Wallace

I assume you mean Paul the apostle, not some random Paul that you and I both know?

tchrist

Aye.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Exactly!!

tchrist

Romans 14:14-23 and 1 Corinthians 8:4-13

Romans 14:14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself.
1 Corinthians 10:25-27 (also 1 Cor 8:4-8) Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
Acts 15:29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.

It is not an especially clear picture.

David Wallace

Two of those verses would appear to contradict one another.

tchrist

9:46 PM

As I said.

David Wallace

If I buy meat in the market, how do I know whether the animal has been strangled?

tchrist

And you should take my word on it, for is it not said that even the Devil can quote Scripture?

David Wallace

It is said thus. And while you were including these quotes, I was looking them up for myself in my own copy of KJV.

tchrist

And do you know who said it?

Cerberus

@Zairja So in summary, the Greeks certainly did not believe in their gods the same way Christians did. It is a blend of metaphor, magic, tradition, entertaining stories, and the great unknown; the connection with conscience and a personal relationship was much, much weaker. You never knew how literally to take your neighbour when he said x or y about certain gods.

These precise distinctions just did not matter to them as much as to Christians.

David Wallace

9:48 PM

@tchrist Well, Jesus said that. I don't recall which gospel it's in.

tchrist

Mark you this, Bassanio,
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart:
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

David Wallace

Umm, I think Jesus came before Shakespeare.

Zairja

@Cerberus I wonder if that's not where the monotheistic (Judeo-Christian Muslim) religions are headed.

tchrist

Perhaps you are thinking of Matthew 4:1–11.

Cerberus

@Zairja They are, in some ways; in the West, they are just dying, in that many people become true atheists, which was truly rare in Antiquity, especially among the common people.

tchrist

9:52 PM

But the quote is actually just Shakespeare.

Cerberus

But the great philosophers were no atheists either, not even Lucretius.

David Wallace

Thank you, tchrist, I seem to be completely wrong. I can't find Jesus saying that the devil can quote scripture, anywhere in any of the gospels. Well done.

And I wasn't thinking of Matthew 4. I thought I remembered some debate with some assorted Pharisees who quoted scripture at Jesus. But maybe I didn't.

The use of prepositions in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is interesting.

Cerberus

> 1. Greek personal religion : a reader / Stephen Instone

This is a compilation with some highly relevant Greek texts about how the Greeks experienced religion, with supposedly ample introductions. I haven't seen it.

I'm not sure to what degree this reader would answer your questions, but it could be interesting.

> 2. Personal religion among the Greeks / André-Jean Festugière

tchrist

Many a thespian has taken Billy the Bard for their Lord.

Cerberus

This one is a bit dated, and I haven't seen it either, but it would seem relevant.

tchrist

10:02 PM

@DavidWallace You mean in KJV. That’s fixed in later translations.

Zairja

@Cerberus Thanks! And damn I wish I could get a hold of Varro's lost works.

David Wallace

@tchrist Ah, OK. Yes, it was KJV that I had in my hand when I was browsing through 1 Corinthians.

tchrist

This is little updated.

Cerberus

@Zairja Haha, good luck!

> Athenian religion : a history / Robert Parker

David Wallace

@tchrist It's still confusing.

Cerberus

10:07 PM

> Polytheism and society at Athens / Robert Parker

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

Parker is highly respected, I believe.

David Wallace

"One God and one Lord" - what is that supposed to mean?

tchrist

NIV is better.

Repetitive reinforcement.

Cerberus

@Zairja These books are fairly recent. I might try Athenian Religion if I were you.

Zairja

10:08 PM

@Cerberus Hope I can find some of these at a university library or inter-library loan. Else they're going on my Amazon wishlist lol

tchrist

> yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

David Wallace

@tchrist but these are two different entities.

Cerberus

@Zairja Heh, well, I would expect most uni libraries to have Parker's books.

@DavidWallace Not exactly: Jesus is God too!

tchrist

And we wonder why it took so long for the Symbolum Nicaenum to sort out the heresies.

David Wallace

@Cerberus It says "there is but one God, the Father".

Cerberus

10:09 PM

Remember the trinity?

tchrist

Don’t make me lolcatz you.

David Wallace

There are only two places in the Bible that hint that Jesus might also be God, and both are confusing and ambiguous (John 1:1 and Hebrews 1:8).

Cerberus

Besides, the Bible says all sorts of things: you will find contradictory statements everywhere, which later Christians have tried to glue together.

David Wallace

There are NO places in the Bible that suggest that the Holy Ghost might be God.

Whatever the origin of the doctrine of the Trinity, it's NOT the Bible.

Cerberus

It only became an issue later, that is true.

But then you would have to read the Septuagint in Greek to be sure.

tchrist

10:12 PM

> In the late sixth century, the Latin-speaking churches added the words "and from the Son" (Filioque) to the description of the procession of the Holy Spirit, in what Easterners have argued is a violation of Canon VII of the Third Ecumenical Council, since the words were not included in the text by either the Council of Nicaea or that of Constantinople.

> The Vatican has recently argued that, while these words would indeed be heretical if associated with the Greek verb ἐκπορεύεσθαι of the text adopted by the Council of Constantinople, they are not heretical when associated with the Latin verb procedere, which corresponds instead to the Greek verb προϊέναι, with which some of the Greek Fathers also associated the same words.

Cerberus

Haha.

Theology is so silly.

tchrist

For a -logy.

Cerberus

How are ἐκπορεύεσθαι and προϊέναι (substantially) different?

tchrist

That’s what I hoped you might answer.

Cerberus

I don't even know the context.

tchrist

10:14 PM

Nicene Creed

The Nicene Creed (Latin: ) is the creed or profession of faith (Greek: ) that is most widely used in Christian liturgy. It is called Nicene () because, in its original form, it was adopted in the city of Nicaea (İznik in what is now Turkey) by the first ecumenical council, which met there in the year 325. The Nicene Creed has been normative for the Anglican Church, the Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church and many Protestant denominat...

David Wallace

In any case, the Bible does not suggest where the Holy Ghost comes from, at all.

Cerberus

Proienai = to go forward, into the open.

Ekporeuesthai = to go out.

tchrist

Sure doesn’t look too different to me, but I know less than nothing.

David Wallace

Hmm, so reading the original Latin (I don't read Greek), it seems to say "I believe in one God ... and in one Lord ... and also another Lord"

I don't think "dominus" implies God does it?

Cerberus

There is no "original" Latin, I'm afraid!

tchrist

10:17 PM

Dominus is Lord.

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae,
et in Iesum Christum, Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum,
qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine,
passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus,
descendit ad inferos, tertia die resurrexit a mortuis,
ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Patris omnipotentis,
inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum,
sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem,
remissionem peccatorum,

David Wallace

Although for some reason, I did think the Nicene Council also invented the doctrine of the Trinity.

Cerberus

Dominus implies God as much as lord/master does.

tchrist

You have to believe in the holy catholic church. Hm.

David Wallace

Sorry, I was looking at the bit headed "Latin Liturgical version" near the bottom, which describes the Holy Ghost as the "Lord and giver of live".

@tchrist That's "catholic" with a small c, which means "universal", as opposed to "Catholic" with a big C, which means, umm, well "Catholic".

tchrist

Credo ... in Jesum Christum ... qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto.

@DavidWallace I know that, silly.

So that’s how it happened.

David Wallace

10:19 PM

@tchrist There's only one person who calls me "silly", and it's not you.

tchrist

Lil late.

David Wallace

So why do Christians insist on worshipping three Gods, when their own scriptures say that there's only One?

And Deuteronomy 13 is very clear on what I should do to anyone who tries to convince me that there are gods other than the One True God.

tchrist

They do not worship three gods. That would be wrong.

¡Ojalá!

David Wallace

Most of the Christians I have encountered worshipped three.

tchrist

No, just three faces of the same god.

It is a Mystery.

Cerberus

10:22 PM

@tchrist They sort of do, and they have been trying to obscure this by their "trinity" ever since!

tchrist

They felt they had to one-up Janus.

Cerberus

And so they decided to worship a Cerberus.

David Wallace

1 Corinthians 8:6 - "for us, there is One God, the Father". I don't think it gets much clearer than that.

Cerberus

I felt so tainted when they came up with their trinity, yuck.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Might I interest you in a religion that doesn't involve a trinity?

Cerberus

10:24 PM

I don't think so, but thanks.

The particulars of religions are not my cup of tea.

tchrist

@DavidWallace Which is why credunt in Unum Deum.

David Wallace

Yes, and in particular, credunt in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem. Then why do they insist that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Ghost is God? It makes no sense to me. These two are clearly not God, according to the Christians' own Holy scriptures. What happened to this religion? It started out so well.

tchrist

The Holy Spook is the Spirit of the Lord.

David Wallace

I did wonder briefly during my time as a Christian whether the three entities were intended to be the Mind, Body and Spirit of just one God. But somehow, that didn't seem to match up with the way the three entities relate to each other in some of the scriptures.

I don't intend to be saying unequivocally "this is wrong". Simply that I do not understand it. I was a Christian for very many years, and I do not understand it.

tchrist

That is why it is a Mystery.

I think Hugh Laurie has a song about it. :)

David Wallace

10:32 PM

John 1 seems to say "Jesus was God". But it then goes on to say that he "became Man".

tchrist

Yes. The idea is that God entered into His Creation as one of us. But this is not about English, unless we dicker with is become.

David Wallace

Actually, I DO intend to say "this is wrong".

Captain Giraffe

I am become the destroyer of worlds. I's an Oppenheimer quote that comes to mind. Hindu scriptures if I'm not mistaken. -Hi new guy here, not a native speaker.

David Wallace

If the divinity of Jesus is so important, why does the whole Bible (which is a huge piece of literature) only suggest it in two places, and so confusingly?

Something so fundamental should be in bold type, on page one.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So the latest leaked imagines from the new LG Nexus seem to indicate no card reader, no removable battery. That sucks. Let's hope Samsung and HTC get to make Nexus too.

@CaptainGiraffe Welcome!

David Wallace

10:35 PM

@CaptainGiraffe Hello, Captain.

Cerberus

As you see, sir, this room is usually off topic.

And whatcha gonna do about it, huh?

David Wallace

This room offers incomprehension;
but some people find _phones_ fit to mention.
Their friends in the chat
seldom care about that
so they voice their profoundest dissension.

Cerberus

Haha.

Their friends are allowed to do so.

David Wallace

@Cerberus You knew it was coming.

Captain Giraffe

:s/profoundest/banale/g If i might suggest =)

Cerberus

10:38 PM

As long as they are not expected to like the religious conversations!

David Wallace

@CaptainGiraffe That wouldn't scan.

Captain Giraffe

@DavidWallace You just can't ban

sry lemme try again =)

David Wallace

@tchrist In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to God. So clearly not two faces of the same entity.

And throughout the gospels, Jesus never claimed to be God, or to be the Son of God. Over and over, he called himself the Son of Man. He did refer to God as his Father, but he also recommended everyone to call God Father.

Captain Giraffe

What's the book that starts with David telling about it's not such a big deal bringing down Goliath? The title in Swedish translates to "God knows...".

David Wallace

Umm, probably 2 Samuel. That's the one that has most of the stuff about David. Let me just check how it starts.

Captain Giraffe

10:53 PM

@DavidWallace It's not a bible book, I think it's the book that Leonard Cohen based his "Hallelujah" song on.

David Wallace

And now I read your sentence about the Swedish title, that much is obvious.

Captain Giraffe

Joseph Heller... One of my favourites. The title is "God knows".

David Wallace

OK, I haven't read it.

It never occurred to me that this song drew its inspiration from anything other than the Bible.

Captain Giraffe

Well the book relates the deeds of David as a movie starring (Lets see..) Liam Neeson

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