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Razetime
Razetime
11:17 AM
@AidenChow APL is the easiest
like without doubt
that bounty has an endless number of questions to farm
 
DialFrost
DialFrost
11:39 AM
@Razetime and a weird lang
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
@AidenChow Come learn vyxal
7
 
Sʨɠɠan
Sʨɠɠan
@PyGamer0 no
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
The hivemind is growing in power
 
DialFrost
DialFrost
@emanresuA ?
@emanresuA yes @AidenChow
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
The Sʨɠɠan hivemind is becoming more and more powerful
 
PyGamer0
PyGamer0
11:51 AM
@DialFrost it ain't weird
it cool
 
Ginger
Ginger
12:43 PM
hi I have returned
 
New Posts
New Posts
0
Q: Make a Compiler or Interpreter for any Turing-complete language in another language

ReallyGoodUsernameAny Turing complete language supporting input and output is allowed other than the language the program was written in. Score length of interpreter or compiler - number of legal characters in the language interpreted/compiled.

interpreter compiler
 
 
1 hour later…
Sʨɠɠan
Sʨɠɠan
1:48 PM
@PyGamer0 no
 
Sʨɠɠan
Sʨɠɠan
2:31 PM
Rust is always like "Naw, you already borrowed that book mutably, now you ain't borrowing it immutably cause you already did"
That's why it irritates me so much
 
Ginger
Ginger
h
 
Razetime
Razetime
3:31 PM
@DialFrost for dubious definitions of "weird"
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
4:05 PM
@Ginger No you wouldn't
IIRC it's opaque to the program whether they're using RAM or swap
Since it's all just...memory
 
Ginger
Ginger
huh
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
I actually really like that RAM golf idea though
I could see it being really interesting for at least one challenge, just to see if any weird exploits with like, networking or disk I/O or something get found, and then maybe those could be "patched out" if we wanted to try more
@Ginger Uh...no...Rust is like the single hardest language to learn (out of the common praclangs) :p
 
Ginger
Ginger
shoulda told me that before I bought a book on learning it
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
@emanresuA Yeah, I've noticed that. What I've been planning to do for my golflang (in like 2038 when I finally get around to it...) is to have a search thingy on the docs page which has like twenty synonyms for every operator so that you can quickly find what you need
Looking for Jelly operators it's like..."hmm, no 'reverse' or...idk, 'backwards' or 'flip' or...oh wait it's 'upend'"
 
Razetime
Razetime
@user
what on earth does ==== do in scala?
where's the docs for it
(also what is a good place to search docs in)
 
Ginger
Ginger
4:18 PM
eeeequals
3
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
I don't think that's a valid Scala operator, where'd you find it?
 
Ginger
Ginger
(also user doesn't really use cgcc anymore)
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
Also I don't think user's active anymore
^^
Is it by any chance actually .====?
Scala has operator overloading with like, thing.== = function IIRC
So maybe what that is is someone comparing something's .== to something else using ==
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
4:51 PM
@RadvylfPrograms There is also reverse
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
Yeah ik
But IIRC it's not the typical reverse you'd use in praclangs
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
I do like how basically every Jelly command has a mnemonic tho, even if they aren't initially obvious
@RadvylfPrograms U is the weird one, it reverses at depth 1, so if you have a list of lists, the elements in the sub lists are reversed, but the order of the lists isn't
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
ah
 
Adám
Adám
Fun fact: In APL, the === function considers all values to be equal.
 
Ginger
Ginger
5:06 PM
so you're telling me you have an equals function that always returns true? :b
 
Radvylf Programs
Radvylf Programs
I'm guessing it's some weird tacit thing like comparing = to =
No way APL differentiates between different numbers of =s next to one another to make different operators
 
Adám
Adám
5:50 PM
Right, X(===)Y is (X=Y)=(X=Y) which is always true.
 
Pacmanboss256
Pacmanboss256
6:25 PM
would oeis.org/A242347 be any good for a code golf challenge? its the number of digits in the binary value of the previous term interpreted as a base 10 number
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
7:21 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing you around? I have a bit of a stumbling block....
(Oh, sorry: "literal manifestation of the concept of 'moderator'", are you around?)
The challenge is that equivalence matrices don't uniquely map to numbers in the sequence: many equivalence matrices can (and do) map to the same number. For instance, every identity matrix, of whatever size, maps to `0`. So I can give *an* example of a matrix for each of the first few terms in the sequence, but I can't give *the* example for each.
What I wonder is (a) how much should that ^^ be explained, or (b) does that ^^ mean that giving a first few examples isn't actually helpful?
(For others' reference, we're talking about this proposed challenge.)
(There's kinda a lot to generating the matrices, under the hood. I wasn't sure how much to spell out in the challenge, though, vs. answerers discovering themselves.)
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
7:56 PM
@nitsua60 a) I think that would be good to include, as I didn't realise that, and b) I think some examples of the first few would still be helpful. I can see how to construct the number from the matrix from the other examples, but seeing the first couple of elements of a sequence can, at least for me, help see the pattern and how it grows.
Ultimately, I don't think it's a massively important thing to include, but I stand by examples being a good way to help support challenge descriptions in general :P
 
New Posts
New Posts
2
Q: Character insertion on letterboards

FlipTackYou know those letterboards outside old-style cinemas which show upcoming films - perhaps you have a miniature one in your home? If you've operated one, you'll know that you can normally add letters from either side of a row. But the slots (in which you slide letters) are thin, so it's impossibl...

code-golf string decision-problem permutations
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
8:20 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Cool--thanks. Should have time to edit again this evening. Congrats on the diamond, too! Remember to boil it in Tide every few years, to keep it shiny =D
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@nitsua60 Thanks, good tip, I was planning on doing the old silver + salt water and electricity to get rid of the rust :P
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
8:44 PM
@Razetime wait is there like no limit
theres like so many different versions of apl it seems like
which one should i be using
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
9 hours ago, by emanresu A
@AidenChow Come learn vyxal
 
Ginger
Ginger
vyxal is a black hole from which there is no escape
 
Adám
Adám
@AidenChow While you should consider me biased, Dyalog is becoming the de-facto standard.
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
ok which one is easier to learn in yalls opinion, apl or vyxal
 
Ginger
Ginger
neither, use python
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
8:52 PM
(i.e. which one has better tutorial/documentation :P)
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
As someone who's never tried APL, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Adám
Adám
APL has over half a century of accumulated materials.
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
@Adám this one? dyalog.com
 
Adám
Adám
See apl.wiki/Learning_resources for a modern collection.
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
Vyxal has pretty good docs, and you only have to remember builtins, not hundreds of "idioms"
 
Adám
Adám
8:53 PM
@AidenChow Yes.
 
Ginger
Ginger
do bear in mind that @Adám's job is to advertise APL
 
Adám
Adám
Yup. I think I was pretty clear about my bias. Says in my profile too.
@emanresuA I'm not sure what you mean by that.
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
also whats the standard interpreter for both, trying to make sure im using the most up-to-date interpreter before i even start lol
is this good for apl: razetime.github.io/APLgolf
 
Adám
Adám
Sure, but if you want the full experience, you should use an installed system.
 
hyper-neutrino
hyper-neutrino
IMO Vyxal is easier to learn because it's stack-based and that's just easier than tacit, and especially since APL's tacit system is a bit more complex than Jelly's (which IMO doesn't say anything about either of the languages; they have entirely different objectives)
I wouldn't say that you should necessarily learn Vyxal in that case because ease of use is not the only metric but if you just want to know which is easier, I'll go with Vyxal, though I barely know either of them so maybe I'm not the greatest person to answer
 
Unrelated String
Unrelated String
8:58 PM
isn't apl's tacit system simpler than jelly's, in the sense that you can tell how a train parses without knowing anything about what's in it
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
@Adám hmm, im just looking for an online interpreter where i can test code and make permalink for like a try it online link for an answer
@emanresuA link?
 
Adám
Adám
@AidenChow The APL Golf is good.
 
hyper-neutrino
hyper-neutrino
don't certain operators or structures have very complex rules compared to jelly's tacit system just following a limited set of rules and all operators being stack-based
 
Adám
Adám
Jelly isn't stack-based.
 
hyper-neutrino
hyper-neutrino
the operators (or whatever those things) were called are
 
Unrelated String
Unrelated String
9:00 PM
quicks are postfix operators
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
@Adám so the link i have currently, or r u referring to smth else? razetime.github.io/APLgolf
 
Adám
Adám
That's the place.
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
also this is the link for the vyxal interpreter right: vyxal.pythonanywhere.com
@Adám k cool
ok wait what, is is this one?? lyxal.pythonanywhere.com
ok i think im just gonna learn both, fuck it lol
 
hyper-neutrino
hyper-neutrino
vyxal.PA is the correct one
lyxal.PA is outdated
 
Adám
Adám
@AidenChow Let me know if you need any help with APL. Also check out:

 The APL Orchard

apl.chat ― Learn, teach, ask, code, golf, & discuss usage. See ...
3
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
9:05 PM
@Adám From what I can tell, APL has multibyte commonly used idioms. If there's something more than two bytes that's common in vyxal, there's a builtin for that.
 
Adám
Adám
@emanresuA OK, but you don't need to memorise the common APL phrases, as you can just write them from built-ins.
 
hyper-neutrino
hyper-neutrino
there are also pretty good docs for said idioms via APLcart (at least I found it very useful)
not really docs so much as a list
 
Adám
Adám
I'm considering adding descriptions/documentation for the/some entries.
 
Adám
Adám
9:26 PM
@emanresuA The word "idioms" is used with two different meanings in the APL world: Optimised phrases and common phrases. There are a couple of dozen that are optimised in some interpreters, but that doesn't really matter for the casual user. APLcart has thousands of common phrases. Surely, Vyxal doesn't have built-ins for all of those…
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
holy crap going through this website call try apl, this rank and depth stuff is already fucking with my brain, i have no idea what is going on
 
Adám
Adám
For information about concepts, APL Wiki is great. Have a look at apl.wiki/Rank and apl.wiki/Depth
> A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing.
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
Found a fun way to generate the powerset of a string in Jelly: ;€;;@€ɗ/
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
9:59 PM
ok i think im gonna give up on apl for now cuz its actually confusing me, gonna see what vyxal has to offer lol
 
Adám
Adám
Did you try following an actual tutorial, like xpqz.github.io/learnapl?
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
@Adám i try following tryapl.org
 
emanresu A
emanresu A
@AidenChow If you have any questions ask in the vyxal chat, and have a look at the tutorial
 
Adám
Adám
@AidenChow That's unfortunately not very well-structured. Try xpqz's or course.dyalog.com
 
Aiden Chow
Aiden Chow
@Adám ok well im gonna give that a shot, hopefully it works out
 
Adám
Adám
10:06 PM
Great. And do let me know if you get stuck anywhere. I've taught many people APL, including several that went on to be outstanding golfers or valued professionals.
 
hyper-neutrino
hyper-neutrino
10:35 PM
rank and depth took me some time to understand as well, lol. you'll get the hang of it though and it'll make a lot of sense eventually
 
Sʨɠɠan
Sʨɠɠan
11:29 PM
@Adám so you get paid to hang out on CGCC?
 
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