The Nineteenth Byte

thejonymyster

13:00

i mean theres the fact that its "without eval" which you can use to 1. disqualify it from being the 'longest' on account of self-imposed restriction

or 2. mandate that the bountied solution or what-have-you be also "without eval"

mousetail

Longest vyxal answer in my dataset is 6553 bytes

thejonymyster

lol i was thinking about how "self imposed restrictions" could make code be longer than it needs to be and then i remembered code-bowling exists

and now i wanna see the shortest code-bowling answers :P

(besides pristine-polyglots lol)

lyxal

smallest is at least 2992 bytes

thejonymyster

smallest what

lyxal

265 bytes

smallest code-bowling

thejonymyster

13:07

did you mean at most* 2992

lyxal

28

A: Biggest Irreducible Hello World

Malbolge, 265 bytes Malbolge is too concise to win this competition. ('BA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^A\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDC<$#9]=<;:9y1U/432+ONo'&+$Hi!~}$#z@xw...

@thejonymyster I mean the upper-limit

thejonymyster

ty i was genuinely confused as much as it probably seemed like i was memeing

also lmao malbolge is too concise.. good times

Ginger

jesus christ lyxal

lyxal

I remember it wouldn't render properly once upon a time

because unicode

believe it or, it used to only be 1k bytes

then I did a little trolling

thejonymyster

can a little trolling be used to shorten code-golf answers

lyxal

13:11

sometimes

mousetail

@lyxal Yea it looks very broken on my laptop

lyxal

it also never loads on mobile browsers

although that could be because of all the mathjax in the question/answers

mousetail

@thejonymyster Isn't code golf just basically trolling compilers and interpreters?

thejonymyster

party rock anthem voice Every day im trollolling

step up fast, and be the fastest gun in all the land,
we shavin bytes off, dont be mad! and now stop:
breaking bad

lyxal

shut up jesser

thejonymyster

13:18

🤐

lyxal

you brun the RV with the wrong ingreditent

github.com/hoodscott/cairds

oh hell no

there's more than one of them

mousetail

I knew it, @cairdcoinheringaahing is just 3 decks of cards in a trench coat

Radvylf Programs

Phew, I thought sock² was blocked, but it turns out the remote proxy just stopped working

lyxal

sockblocked

6

PyGamer0

13:45

@lyxal why is the name cairds? is it a complex number?

lyxal

Don't ask me, just know that we need to get the decloning ray - and quickly

Ginger

ok here I got it

lyxal

Good

Now use it on the duplicate cairds before it's too late

Ginger

just a second

PyGamer0

@lyxal en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Caird

Ginger

13:48

okay done, I just casted them to a set to remove the duplicates

thejonymyster

undeduplicates caird

PyGamer0

lol

lyxal

@Ginger idk what the hell you did but it certainly didn't work

The cairds have duplicated further!

Ginger

@lyxal side effects may include: anyone with the first name "caird" is now gone; the one remaining caird may not be the one you wanted

lyxal

github.com/grahamfyfecodes/cairds

thejonymyster

13:49

if i were a github user i would simply use a unique name for my project

DialFrost

@mousetail wut the

@mousetail where

thejonymyster

^

mousetail

14:05

Hmm my script refuses to work on windows since stdout default encoding is cp1252

Ginger

hey I need some help

what number, exactly, does this python script output?

c=ord("􏿿")
x=sum([c for i in range(c)])
n=int()
for i in range(x):n+=n<<n
print(n)

(c is equal to 1114111)

I'm pretty sure it's uncomputable, but I need an estimate of what number it is

mousetail

Seems like it would be a incredibly huge number

Ginger

It is

I need an estimate of approximately how large it is

using up-arrow notation or what have you

thejonymyster

> estimate of exactly

Ginger

:|

thejonymyster

14:14

:P

mousetail

Like even the number of digits would be impossible to write down

Ginger

that's why we have up-arrow notation

thejonymyster

wait wdym its "uncomputable"

you literally wrote an algorithm for it right there

Ginger

I think the program requires more memory to run than computers currently have

thejonymyster

ah, practicalities

Ginger

14:15

but IDK for sure

thejonymyster

well first off, whats x?

Ginger

more likely it would just take forever

thejonymyster

im pretty sure that much can be expressed in closed form

Ginger

1241243320321

thejonymyster

and finally whats n<<n mean again :-) is it like...

n*2^n ?

Ginger

14:16

exactly

thejonymyster

ok that makes sense ty lol

Ginger

np

I don't know very much about really big numbers so I'm not sure how to represent it

thejonymyster

so in n=n+n*2^n, as grows, i feel like the "n+" part becomes negligible

like consider 100+100*2^100

mousetail

@DialFrost Actually it was miscounted, it's actually 2 million bytes: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/235755/91213

Ginger

me and the boys going ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ?rLꜝ

thejonymyster

14:20

lmao

but yea in fact id say probably the 100* part is negligible as n grows

or uh

the n* part

Ginger

I have to use << due to restrictions on the challenge to which this code is going to be an answer

what I need yalls help for is computing my score

thejonymyster

no i know i know

Ginger

ok

thejonymyster

im just saying in terms of estimating it, those little parts disappear in the "limit" so to speak

or so id imagine, based on my current intuitions :P

mousetail

You probably need the big arrow notation

Ginger

14:23

as I thought

thejonymyster

id say for some large enough n, n+n*2^n is roughly equal to 2^n

so like, for i in range(x):n=2^n, so youre doing 2^(2^(2^(...n))... like, x times

so thats a power tower of 2s x digits high (lower bound, since were removing the extra youd get from the addition and multiplication)

Ginger

right

unfortunately, I think a power tower of 1241243320321 2s won't render all that well with mathjax

thejonymyster

thats fine

two up arrows is power tower

so its 2 up up 1241243320321

i dont have a unicode up arrow on me

Ginger

okay, now for my final question:

thejonymyster

2↑↑1241243320321 if i havent done something grossly illegal secretly :P

Ginger

14:28

what's that divided by 85^3?

thejonymyster

~2↑↑1241243320321

Ginger

.-.

I note that it isn't changed

thejonymyster

614125 is not very big

mousetail

Yea 85^3 is totally irrelavent at this scale

Ginger

okay

any way you could figure out how much the addition and multiplication would add?

I'll brb, good luck and thanks very much

thejonymyster

14:30

np its fun to get to think about this before someone else does the calculations first :P

Radvylf Programs

Okay symbolic is looking like it's going to be far harder than even the approximation approach

mousetail

Imagine having
2↑↑1241243320321 money in the bank, then your stocks go down by 99.999999% but the difference isn't even significant enough to change your listed wealth.

Radvylf Programs

I think I'm just going for floats, if it works for JS it works for ya boi

thejonymyster

~~it doesnt work for js~~

^^^ life goals

new life goal: being able to count to three

i feel a little out of my depth trying to determine whether the multiplication would actually change anything

mousetail

new life goal: being able to count to 3↑↑3

Seggan

14:32

gl

mousetail

@thejonymyster It would not

at those big numbers multiplication by anything that can be written down without arrow notation is insignificant.

thejonymyster

i think you double negatived

but i get what youre saying

Radvylf Programs

LDP: How important are arbitrary precision ints in a golfing language?

Seggan

important

thejonymyster

important

Radvylf Programs

14:35

Are y'all sure?

mousetail

Not very important, since you are allowed to assume numbers are perfect

even if they aren't

thejonymyster

oh right lol

but also itd be nice to use them for like, encoding info for silly reasons

or getting the nth digit of some number :P

Radvylf Programs

I think I'll include ints, then

It shouldn't be a ton of work

thejonymyster

you could always axe em latah

@mousetail i guess my issue with intuiting it is the fact that the multiplication is applied at every step along the way, including way up at the start

Radvylf Programs

Well that's the worst of both worlds since I do the work but don't get any benefit :p

Seggan

14:37

@thejonymyster yeah

@RadvylfPrograms yeah

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms ah but you gain experience young patapon

Seggan

a lot of challenges have really big numbers

also jelly has them, and you dont overrule dennis :P

thejonymyster

also kc challenges where you actually have to print the number itself to be correct :P

which overrules assuming perfect numbers

Seggan

yeah

thejonymyster

(which isnt super often but yknow)

Radvylf Programs

14:39

Yeah but you'd use string compression for that anyway

thejonymyster

oh yea :P

that reminds me, im still sad nobody ever did 99 bottles in jelly

Radvylf Programs

(Well, I guess unless it has interesting numerical properties which are conveneint for a golflang)

@thejonymyster be the change you wish to see in the world

mousetail

Doesn't every golflang have a builtin for 99 bottles

thejonymyster

well i dont know jelly

the goal was to get someone to do that simple question in jelly to see how theyd approach it

and learn from that :P

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail That would be an incredibly dumb built-in

So no

Seggan

14:41

@mousetail lol only vyxal

mousetail

Several I looked up had it

thejonymyster

cringe

Radvylf Programs

No good golfing language would waste a 256th of its code page on a single challenge

thejonymyster

myownlanguage would

mousetail

I think they where created at a time when your score in that challenge was considered a overall benchmark

thejonymyster

14:46

that reminds me i need to solve more challenges

mousetail

Go do it

Seggan

in what

thejonymyster

o7

@Seggan in general :-)

Ginger

@mousetail so no, it wouldn't change anything?

mousetail

I'll answer you if you give me 2↑↑1241243320321 money

Ginger

14:52

;-;

thejonymyster

its an approximation anyway

mousetail

(Currency is irrelevant, even old inflated Zimbabwe dollars will do)

Sandbox Posts

15:09

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

The cat's talkin'! Write a simple cat program that takes from STDIN and copies it to STDOUT, however: Your program's source code must be an English word in the Unix words file. The shortest program (in bytes) wins!

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster There's only really one approach, and it's not interesting. Generate the range to 99, insert each into the base template string, then append the ending bit. No room for creativity or golfing

Ginger

@mousetail yes okay here is a imaginary check for 2↑↑1241243320321 Turkish lira

thejonymyster

@cairdcoinheringaahing right but.. yknow.... someone do it! i put a bounty on it even! if its so easy thats free rep! gfsdg

mousetail

Hmm not sure how imaginary money would work. If I square it I would have negative money

Radvylf Programs

FizzBuzz is the challenge I've seen used as a metric of golfing kanguage golfiness more often

PyGamer0

15:13

@mousetail so if i give you i, and you square it, you owe me 1 money?

mousetail

Yea that's why I'd prefer not to square it

caird coinheringaahing

Explain how to square money

Seggan

cut it in half

mousetail

Seems like a thing shitty investment apps would promise

PyGamer0

@cairdcoinheringaahing arrange money in a square

Radvylf Programs

15:14

@mousetail I have a ton of imaginary money

I spend it on cool mansions and helicopters and stuff

PyGamer0

@RadvylfPrograms raise it to the power of 4 :P

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms Who doesn't?

Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms well yes but do you have 2↑↑1241243320321 units of it

PyGamer0

@RadvylfPrograms ooh imaginary mansions and all right?

@Ginger i have 69↑⁴²⁰1337 imaginary units of money :P

Ginger

I think that's less than 2↑↑1241243320321

thejonymyster

15:17

no its more

up (superscript n) is "n up arrows"

Ginger

oh

PyGamer0

hehehe

thejonymyster

@PyGamer0 just invest it with imaginary interest or whatever the 3b1b video said

mathcat

Does "How long is this number in base n" already exist?

Seggan

how will you turn it into real money?

@mathcat ya

mathcat

15:19

ugh

Seggan

wait how long does it take for chat to sync with a name change

whoah SE has keyboard shortcuts?

awesome

PyGamer0

@Seggan multiply it by its conjugate :P

Ginger

you can make it go faster by going to your chat bio and setting you main site to CGCC again

it forces a refresh

Sʨɠɠan

nope

oh wait nvm

PyGamer0

@Sʨɠɠan is your name temporary?

Ginger

15:22

lmao

Sʨɠɠan

ya for now

PyGamer0

lol

Sʨɠɠan

ill change it maybe in a year or when i get tired of it

caird coinheringaahing

8

Q: How long is the number in this base?

Given a positive integer \$n\$ and another positive integer \$b\$ (\$1 < b < 36\$), return the number of digits/length of \$n\$ in base \$b\$ 1597 16 -> 3 1709 9 -> 4 190 29 -> 2 873 24 -> 3 1061 27 -> 3 289 26 -> 2 1575 34 -> 3 1135 15 -> 3 1161 22 -> 3 585 23 -> 3 1412 23 -> 3 1268 14 -> 3 714 ...

mathcat

Why the downvotes? It seems clear enough to me.

Sʨɠɠan

15:25

oh hey that was one of my jelly answers

before i learned vyxal

caird coinheringaahing

It's not a great challenge tbh. Personally, I dislike the base restriction

Ginger

0

A: Largest Number Printable

Python, 85 bytes (82 chars), score \$2 \uparrow\uparrow 1241243320321\$ That's a pretty big number. c=ord("􏿿") x=sum([c for i in range(c)]) n=int() for i in range(x):n+=n<<n print(n)

mathcat

ah right

Grain Ghost

It doesn't seem to have a scoring criterion.

Ginger

@Sʨɠɠan so apparently your name is now just pronounced "San"

Sʨɠɠan

15:28

what

Grain Ghost

You mean in IPA?

Ginger

I think so, yes

Sʨɠɠan

i dont care, call me steggan

Grain Ghost

ʨɠɠ are not silent in IPA.

Ginger

Google Translate TTS pronounces it "Saaan" with a weird long a that kinda sounds autotuned

Grain Ghost

15:29

It's wrong.

Ginger

Tr y anslate It Online!

Grain Ghost

It's really hard to pronounce.

Sʨɠɠan

Шан is pronounced smth like Shahn

Ginger

can someone do me a favor and update the leaderboard for this question? I'm not sure if I'm on it but I don't think it's accurate right now

@Sʨɠɠan ШанlЏ|ЭГI

Sʨɠɠan

i dont copy

Ginger

15:33

sure you do, just use ctrl-c

Sʨɠɠan

yknow what i mean

Ginger

do I? :p

Sʨɠɠan

@Ginger i dont understand what you mean by that message

Ginger

It doesn't have to mean anything, Sʨɠɠan.

It doesn't have to mean anything at all.

Sʨɠɠan

the local IPA pronouncer says its Shchgan

Ginger

15:37

not sure how I'd pronounce that

caird coinheringaahing

@GrainGhost It's tagged code-golf

Sʨɠɠan

ah ʨ occurs in russian

i mean the sound

Radvylf Programs

sh-t-sh-g is a syllable onset I cannot really pronounce

thejonymyster

really?

Radvylf Programs

I sort of can but I think there's a schwa hidden in there somewhere

Grain Ghost

15:38

15

A: Does the OP have to explicitly state the winning criteria?

Yes, the winning criterion needs to be specified in the challenge First, tags like code-golf where the winning criterion is obvious in theory. You're right that it's probably not entirely necessary, but especially with newer users it's often not clear whether they just picked a suggested tag wit...

thejonymyster

not for me :P its totally possible

Grain Ghost

I don't read tags personally.

Ginger

what if they insult you?

mathcat

good point

thejonymyster

"What? I dont read tags"

earless guy from tails gets trolled pic

caird coinheringaahing

15:39

@GrainGhost Yeah, it's probably worth editing in the traditional "Shortest code wins" rather than closing tho

Sʨɠɠan

ok so ive managed to look it up and in russian it would be Счган, which is roughly pronounced S ch gh an

Radvylf Programs

^^

Ginger

^

Radvylf Programs

The winning criterion should be explicitly stated, but if can be inferred, it should be edited in not VTC'd.

Grain Ghost

It has 0 votes to close.

Noone is voting to close it.

caird coinheringaahing

15:41

And they don't need to, cause it now has en explicit win con :P

Radvylf Programs

(I'm just agreeing with caird, no clue if people are or not)

Grain Ghost

I just thingk is pretty lazy to not even bother including the criterion.

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms But I have seen it done before

Grain Ghost

The challenge is boring and low effort.

caird coinheringaahing

@GrainGhost Yeah, but I've seen posts be brought up in chat, someone mention "Oh, they didn't say 'Shortest code wins'" and people just pile on the VTCs. Wanted to make sure people didn't even bother doing that

@GrainGhost agreed

Radvylf Programs

15:43

@GrainGhost I doubt it laziness, we just have a ton of specific rules that a new user probably wouldn't know about, and including a redundant explanation of the rules in the challenge isn't something you'd assume you need to do

Grain Ghost

Looking at the challenge it looks very lazy.

thejonymyster

i mean its not like... hard

i dont think that makes it lazy

probably someone who thought it was interesting due to lack of experience

the solution as always is to lurk more before posting :P

caird coinheringaahing

The massive list of test cases in kinda indicative tbh. None of them provide any clarification for potential edge cases, or are interesting outputs. it's literally just a long list of random numbers, and the majority of outputs being 3

Sʨɠɠan

man this one guy just speedrunnning challenges with go

Ginger

well it's called go not stop

Sʨɠɠan

15:45

argh i hate how long it takes for mathjax to load

caird coinheringaahing

More test cases doesn't make the challenge clearer. Test cases are one area where "less is more" can really be seen imo

mathcat

@Sʨɠɠan I feel your pain

Sʨɠɠan

it half loads, then while im browsing like 5 secs later it fully loads and the page is reset

Grain Ghost

I don't really care much about what was going on inside of the person who posted it's head. I'm not trying to psychoanalyse them. The challenge is very bare bones and the task is pretty boring. That's all I really need to care about when voting.

mousetail

@cairdcoinheringaahing No more test cases are good, but good quality test cases are more important than quantity

thejonymyster

15:46

^^

Sʨɠɠan

^^

thejonymyster

well hold on

Grain Ghost

@cairdcoinheringaahing I feel that sometimes people just gloss over the challenge and try to guess what the challenge is from the test cases.

thejonymyster

id say examples are less is more

but having a lot of test cases can be helpful

Grain Ghost

I definitely agree that fewer test cases are better.

caird coinheringaahing

15:47

@GrainGhost that could be a fun game (given the test cases, guess the challenge), but shouldn't be how people start a challenge :P

thejonymyster

^ we should do that lol

mathcat

with lots of test cases describing the challenge

Grain Ghost

I'm sure they read (most of) the actual challenge, but it's just they seem to use the test cases to determine most of the details.

caird coinheringaahing

@Sʨɠɠan This is weird, but I can pronounce it :P

thejonymyster

i just think about the tut tut tut challenge and like, theres not much needed as far as examples to explain the challenge, but the test cases are helpful to verify that youre not getting false positives

especially when it seems like your regex or whatever is correct for 99% of cases but theres a weird edge case you didnt think of lol

caird coinheringaahing

15:50

The "gh" is more of a glottal rasping sound than a "guh"

Sʨɠɠan

ya

thejonymyster

like.. test cases are for testing purposes

Sʨɠɠan

like the ukranian г

thejonymyster

its not the challenge writer's fault if users are trying to gleam the challenge from it :P

glean?

mathcat

Probably the wrong time to ask for feedback, but ready to post?

caird coinheringaahing

15:51

@thejonymyster Yes, test cases should be there to demonstrate edge cases. But, if there are no edge cases, then you don't need more than 3/4 test cases to get the point across

thejonymyster

oh of course

Grain Ghost

@mathcat Definitely not ready to post.

How high can n be?

mathcat

arbitrarily large

thejonymyster

Still needs a quick definition for how each number gets its name, but other than that +1 — thejonymyster Oct 7 at 20:27

Grain Ghost

You need to define how to convert numbers to English.

English names don't go up arbitrarily high.

mathcat

15:52

oh right, okay

caird coinheringaahing

I'm not advocating for "no one can include more than 3 test cases", I'm saying that people should only include test cases that improve the question and make it easier to understand (in tandem with the challenge description), rather than just throwing in 20 I/O examples and calling it a day

thejonymyster

oh yea totally lol :-)

Grain Ghost

It honestly seems like very near duplicate.

It doesn't seem to bring anything interesting to the table.

Sʨɠɠan

^^

mathcat

I disagree - the last one was more of a kolmogorov complexity challenge

Grain Ghost

15:54

This is still kc.

caird coinheringaahing

@mathcat Given the pattern in English number names, so is this

thejonymyster

imo i just think its better than the existing one :P

mathcat

hmm

Sʨɠɠan

^^

caird coinheringaahing

The likelihood is that once it reaches 100, it'll be 100 os (one hundred and X), then 200 ts, and so on

It's just the same challenge, but scaled up by 10/100/1000 depending on n

Grain Ghost

15:56

I agree that this is the more interesting version, but not by much, and the other has already been done.

mathcat

okay then

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