The Nineteenth Byte

1:00 PM

uh

@pxeger Have you thought anything about bckwards compability for languages? Up to language maintainers? (If they are wrong?

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar yes; each language has a (currently hidden) property called version which I'm intending to be the guarantee of which version a certain language will always be

N3buchadnezzar

That makes sense, so when a language updates the version updates 1.1 -> 1.2, but something like 1.9 to 2.0 (or some major updates), would split it

But even Python is not backward compatible

@cairdcoinheringaahing Monking

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar yeah, so like the current Zsh runner has :version: 5.8, so if/when zsh 5.9 comes out, that will be listed as a separate language

N3buchadnezzar

Just for the UI I think it makes sense to first select the language and then the version, but that is nitpicking (defaults to latest)

pxeger

1:08 PM

hmm that's a good idea

caird coinheringaahing

@N3buchadnezzar Monking? We're not the 2nd monitor :P

pxeger

??

N3buchadnezzar

:P

Is your customary greeting instead to rick roll each other?

caird coinheringaahing

We discourage greetings here :P

They are wastes of valuable bytes :P

pxeger

they say, wasting valuable bytes on :Ps

caird coinheringaahing

1:15 PM

:P is valuable, it tells y'all not to listen to what I say :P

pxeger

we know that already

it's the default for anything you say

caird coinheringaahing

I want to disagree, but .... :P

pxeger

:P

math

@math it's nice that SE auto plays gifs, but does it work for mp4s too?

N3buchadnezzar

pxeger

1:22 PM

looks good

math

@pxeger is that ato?

pxeger

I've been considering using a more full-page selector like TIO has, where you can also see info about each language, but I'm not sure if it's best

@math yes

ato.pxeger.com

N3buchadnezzar

@pxeger I really like the ones you can search in

The dropdown

pxeger

yeah, that's not so much of a problem with only 3 languages at the moment, but I think it would be a good idea

math

@pxeger I didn't clearly understand how to add a language

pxeger

1:25 PM

it's not particularly simple

What language do you want?

N3buchadnezzar

Does not seem terribly complicated to make the dropwdown searchable: npmjs.com/package/react-searchable-dropdown. But yeah completely useless with 3 languages :p

math

@pxeger I dunno maybe some popular golfing languages

C++

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Jelly :P

N3buchadnezzar

@cairdcoinheringaahing I put up a PR to implement it :p

pxeger

C+ is not a language

and if you meant C++ then that's not a golfing language

N3buchadnezzar

1:28 PM

C+ is like 50% C and 50% C++

caird coinheringaahing

C+ programming lang :P

pxeger

c++ is already like 50% C

math

@pxeger okay perl

pxeger

that can be arranged

N3buchadnezzar

But I thought pxeger wanted to work on the infrastructure before adding more languages?

Shaggy

1:28 PM

@pxeger JAAAAPT!

math

@pxeger I actually just meant how to do it

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar well perl will be easy (for me) because it's generally available

caird coinheringaahing

Japt might actually be fairly easy - it's all in Javascript

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar it's added to the docker repo, but it needs a runner (on my todo list)

@cairdcoinheringaahing japt is written in japt? really?

Shaggy

I was joking; Japt can be way down your list. It hasn't been in active development for years so TIO and my interpreter do the job perfectly well.

N3buchadnezzar

1:29 PM

@pxeger Cant I just make another PR basically copying most of the contents of the zsh?

Shaggy

@pxeger JavaScript

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar yep

go and submit issues people, this is too much to concentrate on!

N3buchadnezzar

Issue: ATO is too cool

pxeger

haha

caird coinheringaahing

Do interpreters have to all be in one language?

pxeger

1:31 PM

no

math

@pxeger ATO is made in python isn't it?

Shaggy

@pxeger Always had the same problem when I asked for feedback on my interpreter in the Japt chatroom. Never learned my lesson, though!

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing they need to be freely available, packageable into a Docker container, and interfaceable from the command-line, that's all

caird coinheringaahing

Jelly should be very easy then

pxeger

@math yes, but that doesn't mean the languages have to use Python

caird coinheringaahing

1:32 PM

$ git clone -q github.com/DennisMitchell/jellylanguage.git
$ cd jellylanguage
$ pip3 install --upgrade --user .

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing indeed; @N3buchadnezzar is working on it already!

@cairdcoinheringaahing github.com/attempt-this-online/languages/commit/…

caird coinheringaahing

That installs jelly as a runnable command (e.g. jelly eun '“3ḅaė;œ»'), or you can pip install it and use import jelly; jelly.main

pxeger

I don't want to add too many languages until I've finalised containerisation (which I basically have in my head, but I need to implement it :þ)

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger What's your plan for updating languages?

pxeger

because otherwise I'd have to go back and change them all

hyper-neutrino

1:35 PM

is there a good way to split a list into a square in Jelly?

like sL½$$ but short

N3buchadnezzar

@hyper-neutrino Wait. That is short

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing look back at my conversation with N3buchadnezzar yesterday (I'm trying to find it and bookmark it)

hyper-neutrino

5 bytes is quite long when the answer i'm trying to find is supposed to be 6 :p

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Gonna add that as a builtin in my fork :P

hyper-neutrino

:p

pxeger

1:37 PM

how updating will work on ATO

yesterday, 3 hours 6 minutes total – 180 messages, 4 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked just now by pxeger

oh no don't worry

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino That doesn't even work, you need sLÆ½$$

N3buchadnezzar

@pxeger I learned a lot sorry

Pxeger i think I got everything ready

what is sbcs?

pxeger

oops I edited the message instead of sending a new one

Single Byte CharacterS

so that's true for jelly

N3buchadnezzar

So that one should be true yeah

caird coinheringaahing

Single Byte Character Set :P

pxeger

1:43 PM

oh

same diff

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Should the builtin mimic sLÆ½$$ for non-square-length lists, or should it format into a rectangular matrix?

e.g. what should 7RŒ½, 8RŒ½ and 9RŒ½ be?

hyper-neutrino

1 2 3  1 2 3  1 2 3
4 5 6  4 5 6  4 5 6
7      7 8    7 8 9

N3buchadnezzar

I did not change the whole ATO/yargs thingy except adding the jelly part, not sure if zsh and take inputs differently

hyper-neutrino

IMO

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino What sLÆ½$$ does

pxeger

1:47 PM

@N3buchadnezzar ah that reminds the reason I didn't add a runner for Jelly yet: because it doesn't have options at all, so I kind of wanted to implement a way to hide the options field so people weren't confused by it

hyper-neutrino

if the intent of the built-in is to format as a square I think what I listed makes the most sense

possibly add a dyadic version to squarify with filler

caird coinheringaahing

Agreed. What about for 12 tho?

hyper-neutrino

I think a 3x4 still makes more sense than a 4x3

N3buchadnezzar

@pxeger Makes sense, but those who use Jelly are not your run of the mill Windows XP users

It would be nice, but imho not a burning necessity

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar well I wouldn't count on it :þ

caird coinheringaahing

1:49 PM

@hyper-neutrino So [1,2,3,4],[5,6,7,8],[9,10,11,12]?

hyper-neutrino

I think with a trailing ,[] would make sense but IDK

N3buchadnezzar

:p

Neil

@Bubbler Charcoal, 11 bytes: ＩＥＮ⁻⊕ι⊗÷⊕ι³

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino So would 5RŒ½ be [1,2,3],[4,5]?

hyper-neutrino

IDK how I feel about either [1, 2, 3], [4, 5], [] or ^

N3buchadnezzar

1:52 PM

Empty seems a bit strange

caird coinheringaahing

I dislike having trailing [], especially when it doesn't make the most sense

I'll add a square with filler dyad as well

hyper-neutrino

fair enough

Neil

@Bubbler Charcoal, 10 bytes: ⪫''⪫⪪Ｓ'¦''

Shaggy

Today I learned that zebras are actually piebald horses in the process of defragging themselves!

pxeger

brand new sentence

Neil

1:59 PM

@Bubbler Charcoal, 9 bytes: ＩＥθ№…θ⊕κι

N3buchadnezzar

@pxeger I am not a frontend expert, but this seems to do it stackoverflow.com/questions/33667773/…

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler Jelly, 7 bytes ĠṬ€µ×ÄS

Neil

@Bubbler Charcoal, 10 bytes: ⭆θ⎇§ηκ↥ι↧ι

N3buchadnezzar

But yeah, as you say. It is a bit more work, having to update the languages whether they take options or not :p

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar oh I know how to do it, I just haven't

Jo King

2:08 PM

can i get independent confirmation that this guy is being a prick? codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/231018/76162

N3buchadnezzar

YEah, seems like its a bunch of stuff to update for a minuscule change

caird coinheringaahing

@JoKing Has he deleted all his comments but the last one?

pxeger

@JoKing I think prick is a strong word

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing yes

caird coinheringaahing

And yes, it looks like he's being unnecessarily antagonistic

pxeger

2:10 PM

but he is actually right

actually I think it depends on the interpretation of external

hyper-neutrino

well, the question of whether or not he is being unnecessarily rude is still "yes", but I don't know anything about Go to judge the validity of the solution ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pxeger

because many existing answers are already using libraries, so I think the answer definitely follows the spirit of the rules

N3buchadnezzar

But what constitutes as an external library in Go?

Jo King

oh, which ones?

pxeger

it's just unfortunate that the letter of the rules (albeit accidentally) end up requiring different things for different languages because of the import system in Go

caird coinheringaahing

2:14 PM

I think the main issue is that it might use the internet, specifically, rather than an "external library"

pxeger

@JoKing like... most of them? All of the short ones that don't encode the data themselves

10 upvotes:

library(Unicode)
cat(u_char_name(utf8ToInt(scan(,""))),sep="\n")

10

A: Print the character names

R, 54 bytes 62 library(Unicode) cat(u_char_name(utf8ToInt(scan(,""))),sep="\n") Edit: per @flodels comment, I need to read it from connection first, so had to add scan. This is also probably non-competent solution according to all the rules. Usage > cat(u_char_name(utf8ToInt(scan(,""))),sep=...

Jo King

they're all using standard libraries or functions as far as i can see

ah, ok, idk about that one

Shaggy

@JoKing Yes!

Neil

@Bubbler Retina, 31 bytes

caird coinheringaahing

Hey look, banning vaguely defined programming things has lead to confusion and anger. Who would've expected this???

pxeger

2:16 PM

I think this is just a poorly worded rules issue

...and I maintain my position that invalid answers should not (necessarily) be deleted

which rings true here IMO

caird coinheringaahing

Blatantly invalid answers should be. Answers whose validity is potentially uncertain shouldn't be

Jo King

it could be worded better, but i thought that "external libraries" basically refers to anything that's not in the standard installation

pxeger

If you think this answer "requires the use of the internet", then so do all the other answers, because oit requires you to download the langauge interpreter/compiler and hence the libraries (which are apparently not external) from the internet

caird coinheringaahing

Does the package/library used come "pre-installed" with Go?

Jo King

e.g. importing fmt is fine, but golang.org/x/whatever is not really

@cairdcoinheringaahing nope, at least not in my installation

caird coinheringaahing

2:19 PM

Same way that import math would be fine in Python, but not import numpy, as it's an "external" library

pxeger

@JoKing anything on golang.org/x/ is in the standard installation in the same way that /usr/bin/find is "in the standard installation" of Linux

If I really wanted I would fork golang to include golang.org/x/whatever in the standard installation

and then it would be valid

ergo it is valid

hyper-neutrino

okay regardless of the clarity of the rules or what everyone's opinion of processing invalid answers or potentially invalid answers is, surely this could've been solved if OP explained what pxeger did in their first comment

N3buchadnezzar

This seems like a standard loophole

caird coinheringaahing

This seems like an issue that could be avoided entirely by simply not banning things

N3buchadnezzar

Like forking go, is basically creating a new language specifically designed to solve the problem at hand

hyper-neutrino

2:22 PM

rather than banning you could just use what the standard rules always are - when using external libraries like numpy, the language name becomes "Python + numpy", and people can just indicate that built-ins or non-standard things are being used. If it's boring, people can downvote. If it isn't, people can upvote. Nobody needs to argue the rules ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

N3buchadnezzar

I mean we all agree the question was poorly worded / unclear, and the user should have used the sandbox. But that is in the past. X have already happened, now the issue is Y :p

pxeger

@N3buchadnezzar hmm good point

caird coinheringaahing

Regardless of the validity of the answer, neither of the user's comments have been particularly pleasant

hyper-neutrino

and the removed ones weren't particularly exceptional either

pxeger

BOD: they have a borderline case, and JoKing has been somewhat one-sided in their consideration of the post

I can, at least, understand why they're annoyed

hyper-neutrino

2:27 PM

I mean, Jo King literally just started off by stating a rule, OP could've explained instead of being antagonistic from the start

(not that I expect you to know that they were - they have several removed comments that you can't see, of course)

pxeger

ok

hyper-neutrino

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ one could argue either way. not particularly productive in any case

Jo King

you also can't see any of the comments where all they say is that I have zero knowledge of Go and that the answer breaks no rules without explaining anything at all

N3buchadnezzar

The easiest would be just to outgolf him in Go :p

pxeger

it looks pretty well-golfed to me though

Jo King

2:31 PM

i can't really do that without using a non-standard library

pxeger

codegolf.stackexchange.com/posts/231018/revisions ?

caird coinheringaahing

Someone else can roll that back, I don't want to wade any further into this

Jo King

i guess that's confirmation huh?

pxeger

@pxeger thanks for the link, it seems Jo should excuse themself from further discussion, as they are not being objective (childish name calling from a moderator)? — Steven Penny 52 secs ago

I don't remember any "childish name calling"

hyper-neutrino

"prick", I guess? that's not name-calling, that's literally just a descriptive noun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

pxeger

2:33 PM

ah ok

caird coinheringaahing

"prick" and the slightly more offensive original message

Jo King

well, technically it was a slightly ruder word than prick before i edited it

pxeger

23 mins ago, by pxeger

@JoKing I think prick is a strong word

N3buchadnezzar

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Less drama, more golf

pxeger

@hyper-neutrino ...I'm struggling to see how that doesn't constitute name-calling actually, tbh

N3buchadnezzar

2:34 PM

Is my guy missing an arm?

caird coinheringaahing

You need to escape the \

pxeger

anyway, can a RO move this to a different room?

caird coinheringaahing

Why and where?

Jo King

it might just be a difference in culture

as an australian, i have the right to call people cunts

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing a new room, I mean; and because it doesn't seem to be interesting the other ¾ of the room

@JoKing perhaps not as a SE moderator though, don't you think?

Jo King

2:36 PM

yup, that's why i tone it down

caird coinheringaahing

Honestly, it seems like the most annoying part of being a mod is that you can't take any actions without being accused of being powerhungry and overzealous

Which of course, is mostly BS, but it still must be annoying

N3buchadnezzar

It comes with the domain I guess

hyper-neutrino

looking at the Go standard library page I haven't found anything under either src/text or src/unicode that indicates runenames is in the stdlib

I may be missing it, so someone else should take a look

pxeger

18 mins ago, by pxeger

@JoKing anything on golang.org/x/ is in the standard installation in the same way that /usr/bin/find is "in the standard installation" of Linux

it's not techincally part of the standard installation, but most things you want to install will require it

hyper-neutrino

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ okay all I'm saying is that it isn't in the "stdlib" section

New Posts

2:40 PM

0

Q: Roll up a D&D character, with options

I'd like to roll up the ability scores for my Dungeons and Dragons character. But I'd also like them to be balanced (and slightly better than average). Typically, a character's stats are created by rolling 4 6 sided dice, adding together the three highest results, and doing this 6 times. The 6 sc...

Jo King

as my final word before i go to sleep, i'd just like to note that according to the answerer's logic, the only time they'd explain to me how it wasn't an external library were if I already knew why it wasn't...

N3buchadnezzar

@NewPosts Uhm, why cant I answer this question by always picking the lowest allowed values

caird coinheringaahing

random

pxeger

but they haven't specified further what counts as random

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, that should be clarified

N3buchadnezzar

2:47 PM

a=random.sample([h,t], k=6); a[0]=l

pxeger

As it is cat;shuf -e 1 2 3 is a valid answer (output the three inputs followed by 1 2 3 in some order)

because the first input will always be <= the first input; the second will be >= the second, and the total (first+second+third+1+2+3) will always be >= third

(actually, seq 3|shuf is shorter)

caird coinheringaahing

Isn't the third test case wrong?

pxeger

no, why?

caird coinheringaahing

There's no elements below l, or above h, and the sum is equal to, not greater than, the threshold

hyper-neutrino

same goes for all the test cases

i'll edit non-strict inequality in

pxeger

2:55 PM