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12:00 AM
Sounds like a very vague and unclear problem
yes,idk if he means take those characters out, or take them out when they are used as a seperator
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Redwolf ProgramsReverse Zip Bomb code-challenge compression Zip bombs are compressed files, designed so that unpacking it yields the biggest file possible. These are fairly well known, and there are examples of 42 KB files which expand into multiple petabytes of data. In this challenge, the goal is reversed. In...

Consider a program such that if any substring is removed the behaviour changes (the output changes, or an error occurs). Is there a name for that? I think so but can't remember it now. Pristine program means that if any substring is removed an error occurs. So it's like a weaker version of "pristine".
Irreducible, maybe?
12:18 AM
@RedwolfPrograms That sounds like a good name for that property. But I haven't found it on Meta, and I seem to remember we had a name for that. Maybe I'm wrong
there is a pristine-programming tag
@RedwolfPrograms irreducible is indeed the term
Refer to biggest irreducible hello world
12:50 AM
@Lyxal @RedwolfPrograms Thank you both
@Lyxal Sorry
1:10 AM
me: installs review queue stalker
SE: goes down
me: *surprised pikachu*
@RedwolfPrograms how to fix review userscript?
1:37 AM
A: Review Stalker Reloaded: A cross-site dashboard for reviews

caird coinheringaahingThe new changes to the review queues, now live across the network, have completely broken the script. It now no longer: Refreshes the page automatically Automatically opens any queues with pending reviews Switches to meta sites regularly Has any visual indicator on the review queues:

1:51 AM
@Lyxal Wanna try my heavily modded version?
It's got weird noses to tell you when there's something in the queue
@Alexbries you can at least count ${ as one separator instead of 2
2:17 AM
@RedwolfPrograms okay
I will
2:30 AM
@Lyxal Wait I said noses but meant noises
Don't get your hopes up for weird noses
2:53 AM
still wher link?
i need link
It asked me if I want to downgrade... :thonk:
It really is a downgrade
Unless you like the changes
3:42 AM
Q: Which electrical outlets can I use?

Redwolf ProgramsIn North America, most electrical outlets/receptacles follow standards set by NEMA. For this challenge, you'll be given a few properties of a device you need to plug in, and your program (or function) should return all of the outlets that would be compatible. For this challenge, an outlet has thr...

3:54 AM
I think we should re-discuss whether is on-topic on main
There's only two questions and I think they'd be better on meta
4:11 AM
@RedwolfPrograms I'm always in favour of cleaning up a tag, so I'd welcome a meta discussion about it
Currently the votes on the two main stances are +16/-7 (allow them) and +12/-5 (should be on meta), so it's not a clear cut issue
If you add "supports them on main" to "doesn't support them on meta" and the reverse as well, you get +21/-19, so almost as far from consensus as you can get
Here's a potential challenge idea: Jelly has a "eval as Python" atom, ŒV. It also has compressed strings that can handle all printable ASCII strings. Is there a challenge on the site where a "compress the Python code, then eval" is shorter than a straightforward Jelly implementation?
Potentially implement that as a cops and robbers challenge
@RedwolfPrograms In which case, I'm for sure pro re-discussion
Should I write up a meta post?
4:28 AM
@RedwolfPrograms For purely selfish reasons (I.e. I want to be awake to answer it), wait a few hours. Otherwise, yeah
4:49 AM
@RedwolfPrograms i heard this strange noise a moment ago and thought it was part of the lecture I'm watching (it's a pre-recorded video lecture). I was waiting for the lecturer to explain what the noise was until I realised there was a review to be done.
14 flags...
it's a heated discussion
The noise is very similar to SMB3's desert music so I used to get confused
I also thought it may have been discord and that my headphones were broken.
You can mess with the pitch and timing if you want
For a softer sound you can try triangle or sine wave forms
4:53 AM
Can I make it a rickroll?
I guess you could make it play it in the background, yeah
how would I go about doing it?
But it'd switch to the review page a few seconds in
that's good
@Lyxal If you do this, I will happily change my version to do the same :P
4:55 AM
If you were to extract the sound from the video as an MP3 you could use an audio element to play it
Never Gonna Give You Up is a banger
@ChartZBelatedly exactly
Should just be var audio = document.createElement("audio"); audio.src = "/sahuguzbsiubd.mp3; audio.play();
I can do it myself tomorrow if y'all want
But it'd mean waiting between 7 and 14 hours
I'll see what I can do
5:11 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

ChartZ BelatedlyPython's the way forward Jelly has an "Evaluate the argument as Python" atom, ŒV which takes a string as an argument as evaluates that string as Python code: Try it online!. It also has compressed strings, delimited with “...» that can compress any string containing printable ASCII (plus newlines...

6 hours later…
10:53 AM
Q: Hot to put error message

Noah SchnappHow do I put an error message to this? like for example: you accidentally pressed a letter instead of a number in grades then an error message will show #include using namespace std; int main() { double assignment1, assignment2, seatwork1, seatwork2, quiz1, quiz2, majorexam, grade, major,...

3 hours later…
1:41 PM
I could use some better test cases for codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/221167 - I know my code definitely fails (currently via throwing exception) for invalid patterns, but I don't know whether it works for all valid patterns (it passes the test cases but they may be too easy?)
input is newline-terminated without spaces, e.g.
2 hours later…
3:39 PM
Hi everyone!
Again quiet atmosphere today
@rak1507 let's find another topic for discussing today
Well, after the massive conversations yesterday, we all need a break :P
@ChartZBelatedly yeah, your message is still being starred
Well, it's one of the best jokes I've made here :P
This is my most starred message tho :P
3:43 PM
Does this banner change
Not unless you have the gradscript, no
4:19 PM
Revamped this from my original (half-asleep) draft: Any feedback?
finding a shorter jelly solution than a compressed python one should be really easy, no?
Yeah, that's why Cops have got to properly try if they want a safe answer
seems borderline impossible to me
I have no problem with that :P
well, it doesn't make for an interesting challenge if everything gets cracked
4:23 PM
also it is exclusively a jelly challenge for the most part, which is also not great
If cops actually put in effort, then Robbers will have to as well. Even if everything ends up cracked, people will still have to find unique ways to try to win
I would be very surprised if it wasn't easy for people who know jelly to find shorter solutions
@rak1507 Yeah, I dislike restricting it to just Python and Jelly, but it becomes far too broad to allow any language with a "Eval as language X"
yeah, it's impossible to extend it, but it doesn't mean it's not bad that you can't
4:27 PM
@rak1507 there are some things where you strictly have to use python, so then it becomes a game of how much logic can you unload into jelly
like what?
files and graphics
well maybe not graphics depending on how the rules of the specific challenge are
I think any safe answer is going to have to find a sweet spot between the capabilities of the two languages
Pick something that's too easy and you'll be quickly cracked, pick something too hard and there won't be a Jelly answer
And besides, it could encourage people to learn Jelly :D
5:02 PM
Cannot understand the rule > All languages are open to compete in it (so no python-only challenges etc.)
Dosen't it clash with the > Cops, you are to choose an code-golf challenge; write a Python solution to this challenge; compress that solution into Jelly and submit that as your answer, rule?
sorry, where is this rule shown?
@Wasif That rule applies to the challenge you choose, not the language you use
@HyperNeutrino It's for one of ChartZ's sandboxed challenges (codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2140/…)
ah. okay i see
@RedwolfPrograms thanks
@Wasif Like Redwolf said, that's specifically for the challenge you choose, so that cops don't get an unfair advantage due to language-specific challenges/rules
5:23 PM
@ChartZBelatedly another thing, cops might use already posted python answers without putting no effort at all (except just compressing it and passing it to eval atom)
@Wasif considering the nature of jelly compression there might be some art to finding ways to de-golf the python to make it compress better
@UnrelatedString yeah, that would be interesting, after all are we permitted to use already posted python solution?
You do make a good point though, I'll add in a note preventing "stealing" other people's existing aswers
But only in the sense of "find answer, compress, submit". If you actually do work/effort to adapt an existing answer, that's fine (with proper attribution)
@ChartZBelatedly thanks!
SO, our main objective is to trick the jelly compressor, isn't it? It might sometimes require even some ungolfing
@Wasif Either that, or find and answer a challenge that tests the limits of Jelly, while still being doable
Somehow, according to SE, I'm closer to getting the gold badge than the bronze badge :/ For reference, my scores and answers are 408/1000 and 83/200 for discussion and 30/100 and 4/20 for feature-request, and those are my two "closest to getting" tag badges on meta
5:40 PM
April Fools' Day has been a Wikipedia tradition since 2004. In 2015, an editor changed the name of the miscellaneous joke section from "General Tomfoolery" to “General Jerryfoolery”, which spawned a short but friendly edit war that was repeated in 2016 through 2018. In 2019, the First Great Edit War broke out and over one-hundred changes were made to the title of the miscellaneous joke section. As the dust of the first Great Edit War cleared, the community could only wait and see what April Fools' Day 2020 would bring. In the months and days before April 1, 2020, multiple edits were made to the...
Apparently this is a thing ^
well, I've posted my answer but I'd still appreciate any false negatives if anyone finds one
@Neil It's insane that only 3 answers to that are actually valid
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

xnorLimit of lists code-golf You're given a never-ending sequences of lists, each of which appends some number of values to the end of the previous one. That is, each list is a prefix of the next. 3 3,1,4 3,1,4,1 3,1,4,1 3,1,4,1 3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6 ... While some steps may leave the list unchanged, its ...

5:58 PM
@ChartZBelatedly probably nobody knows how to calculate whether their algorithm runs in reasonable time
@Neil Yeah, but it doesn't take much effort to run it on the 10x10 case that's specifically mentioned needs to be done in the challenge and realise "Oh wait, it isn't fast enough"
@ChartZBelatedly well, only because it was added later...
(as I understand it)
@Neil Looks like the time requirement was part of the initial spec, although the specific "almost full" 10x10 test case wasn't so fair enough
I wonder if anyone's ever had a challenge where the Sandbox proposal had a higher score than the main post (barring trivial ones where they got closed or early posted)
6:53 PM
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Thanks for the bounty!
@ChartZBelatedly You're welcome, keep the answers coming!
@ChartZBelatedly Yeah, I thought the "should be run somewhat fast for 10x10" was against "just try every possibilities and look if the board is in them", not "think about all 10x10 fields". Not sure what to do with getting notified a day later with "well here is a testcase against backtracking", so I just let my answer stand as it was.
(but upvoted the more clever ones :-) )
7:46 PM
Q: Decode Polybus Square/Tap Code/Prison Code

Samuel WallerThe code has a lot of names, but is very simple: 1 2 3 4 5 1 A B C D E 2 F G H I J 3 L M N O P 4 Q R S T U 5 V W X Y Z A letter is coded by its coordinates, with the row first, then the column. Ex: M = 3, 2 V 1 2 3 4 5 1 A B C D E 2 F G H I J >3 L M N O P 4 Q R S T U 5 V W X Y Z...

8:25 PM
@xash Personally, I believe that invalid answers (even those that are invalid because of time restrictions) should be deleted
@ChartZBelatedly invalid answers that are still interesting (i.e. most of them) shouldn't be deleted
@pxeger I strongly disagree
why? If the answer adds something (learning, humour, a particularly novel approach) it is worth keeping, even if it's not strictly competetive
When I said "most of them" I meant that beacuse people don't generally post invalid answers unless they have good reason to
Because if we allow any post, even if it's invalid, because it "adds something", we get a bunch of off-topic spam
We need someway of deciding which posts are allowed and which aren't, and "follows the rules" and "doesn't follow the rules" is the most obvious way
I mean only it adds something to the challenge specifically, not just adds something to life in general. A new approach for detecting primes, while interesting, shouldn't be posted on an challenge obviously
8:38 PM
If an answer does not solve the required task as per the challenge specifications, it is, by policy, invalid, and the procedure to that is to allow the user some time to fix it, and otherwise to delete it.
We can always revisit things on meta but this is our policy so I will enforce it (usually I don't hunt down invalid answers though, I just respond to flags, but if I see them I'll handle them however I see fit)
We've consistently held the policy that invalid answers be deleted
Sometimes answers are cool and all, but allowing an invalid answer to exist because it's cool / interesting blurs the line between objective policy and moderators' opinion, and I believe the site should be enforced on objective policies that we can discuss on meta that aren't really subject to what I think is cool or not.
8:40 PM
I'll delete it then. But I'd still argue this is borderline challenge-was-changed-after-answers-were-made.
Maybe we could have a place to have interesting things that aren't quite valid answers but are still cool, but I can't immediately think of where that'd go in the SE site structure
@xash The challenge wasn't changed, the specific test case was added afterwards
Which is kinda unfair, but the answer was still invalid from the moment it was posted
This isn't the olympics. If someone uses a new type of steroids, it's scientifically or artistically interesting. They can't win obviously, but they definitely should not be deleted
You can downvote them if you don't like them but unless they detract from the challenge they should be kept
If someone uses a new type of steroids, they should (and are) disqualified
That's the real life version of deletion
No, deletion would be murder or censorship
We already have disqualification, as disqualification
8:43 PM
No, murder would be destroying the user account.
Censorship would be suspending them (I suppose)
@pxeger But leaving a comment below an answer saying "this is invalid and is disqualified" doesn't actually do anything. Subjectively, the answers are interesting, but objectively, they are invalid and should be removed
Wiping the answer from the record (except for 10k+ users) is analogous to censorship (I realise this is perhaps an extreme judgement, making it seem worse than it is - code golf is a trivial pursuit after all)
It really isn't.
Not at all
@ChartZBelatedly That is why I called it a borderline case. :-P A vague "should run for inputs up to 10x10 on TIO" doesn't imply for me "be sure that it will run for every possible input up to 10x10 on TIO" but more "be sure that in the general case it will run for inputs up to 10x10 on TIO"– but I'm not a native speaker, so I tend to misinterpret those things.
8:46 PM
We are not a government and this is not a public place of free expression.
Especially because mods can fully purge the edit history of an answer, and edit it down to a stub
But if I want, I can go and look up the Russians who used steroids or whatever in the olympics, to see how they did it and what interesting techniques they used
golf is an art not a war
@xash I agree that the best case scenario would have included that test case from the start, but I think that updating answers (even deleting in extreme cases) for question updates is the best general strategy
@pxeger Well, for the backtracking cases – those weren't very interesting anyway. :-)
Golfing on this site has rules; sure, it's an art, but it has objective rules to it. Which I'd argue even war has fewer of.
8:49 PM
@xash this conversation has moved beyond that now
If you want, you are free to open a meta discussion to revisit this policy. Alternatively, if you have a solution to how we can keep invalid answers on a record that anyone can look through if they're interested, without allowing invalid answers to exist as solutions to a challenge, then I'd be more than happy to organize and facilitate that.
@HyperNeutrino Yes you can always go to archive.org or some other 3rd party service but that's not helpful here. I think they need to remain on-platform to be useful, but you still want some delineation between competing and disqualified answers, which is what the vague "non-competing" label means. Just refine that a little bit - maybe require the answers to focus on the interesting thing rather than what might appear to be a solution until you find out it's non-competing
Non-competing actually never meant "invalid". Invalid answers have never been allowed and non-competing was talking about answers in languages that postdated the challenge, which used to be disallowed, then allowed with that label, and is currently just plainly allowed because we decided that was best for the site.
Non-competing is not a thing anymore. Any answers that have that label probably came before we changed the policy regarding language vs problem lifespans or are from users who don't understand the label or didn't know about the change.
In this specific case, was xash's answer valid under the original wording, or was the wording simply made clearer and not changed?
On SO, answers which provide information about what the question asks are perfectly allowed, even if they don't precisely solve the asker's problem. Why can't we have that here?
8:56 PM
@pxeger Not really
Clarification is for comments. Yes, sometimes answers give only some insight into the problem and also ask the OP for more info, but we're not like other Q&A sites.
(I personally add tiny suggestions and stuff in the comments)
Questions on SO also don't specify a competitive problem and set a winning criteria to score answers.
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI @xash That?
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI xash's answer was always invalid (as were the other 4), but we didn't know that until tsh's 10x10 test case
@ChartZBelatedly Oh ok
Which is just downright unlucky, cause no-one was really "in the wrong" here, it just turned out to be unlucky
9:01 PM
I repeat: golf is an art not a war. Why does it have to be so strictly competitive? Nobody really treats golf like a chess tournament, and you wouldn't want to because that would be tiring
@pxeger It's not really competitive
Look, as much as I'd also like to see interesting thought processes or approaches that weren't quite able to meet the challenges requirements (usually via time issues), I stand by this site policy because it becomes ambiguous if we allow some invalid answers but delete other ones on the basis of pure opinion. I can't immediately think of a solution either but allowing these answers and not deleting them isn't one I believe works.
How far would you go for an interesting answer?
@pxeger We have to be objective to work as a site, including on invalid answers
And what defines an interesting answer? Who decides it?
9:02 PM
@pxeger "You can't post an invalid answer" doesn't exactly require it to be strictly competitive.
Even in a casual chess game, you wouldn't allow your opponent to move their rook diagonally, but that doesn't just automatically make it a GM-level tournament.
And compared to older questions, new questions have very loose IO and stuff.
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI There aren't often "interesting" answers, but they should be allowed. A lot of the most upvoted answers on the site are interesting answers that are also competitive, and I think we might be missing out on a lot if someone wants to post one that isn't attached to a snippet of code and some syntactic shrinking
@pxeger That's one bad thing about . But if you want to keep that interesting answer, you can post your own question with slightly different rules with a different criterion that the answer would be able to compete in.
We might be missing out on some things, but we'd also be allowing a lot more noise or negative contribution. I'm not denying that there's anything interesting that would be worth keeping that isn't a valid submission, I'm just saying that it'd bring more harm.
We should be optimising for pearls, not searching through sand for them
9:06 PM
CMM: Should we start a draft for a similar question which xash could answer with their current solution?
Also, there are plenty of interesting approaches in , even ones that are easily beaten by more boring ideas or an answer from someone using golfing-language features to just target the problem.
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Hell no. Again, this wasn't an interesting answer.
Thing is, there's a difference between an answer that doesn't even make a basic attempt to be golfy (like not shortening variable names) and one that isn't the winner; there's a difference between being strictly competitive with no fun and enforcing validity or keeping the spirit of the competition.
@ChartZBelatedly Why? There is no reason to have moderation at all. The voting system is a bridge between the subjective and objective, and that's what we should use for deciding between interesting and not, with moderation as a backup for things that are obviously not an answer, like most of the non-borderline items listed here
@xash @pxeger This
9:08 PM
That's been a core policy of Stack Exchange, since the beginning. Even if we have a meta discussion allowing invalid but interesting answers, SE would turn around and say "No, that's not in line with our values"
@ChartZBelatedly I don't see why allowing this would create more sand
@pxeger Number 3 on that list seems like it could be kept
@ChartZBelatedly Screw SE and their "values"
@pxeger More people would post invalid answers and then say that they're interesting
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Ok, but they wouldn't get any upvotes, proving that they're not interesting, and then we can delete them
9:10 PM
@pxeger While we're on SE, we have to follow their "values". If you don't like them, find somewhere else to golf
SE will change policies, users, everything else, but not their values. It's the only thing they've been consistent about in 12 years
seriously? I'm tired of this argument
@pxeger This way, you're discriminating against invalid answers in unpopular languages
Invalid answers in popular languages are much more likely to be voted up.
Personally, I flag invalid answers for deletion no matter their score, or how old they are. If an answer is invalid, it should be removed
I really don't think deleting answers that don't follow rules destroys the spirit of CGCC or ruins the fun, and we need to handle things as objectively as possible, and "if your answer isn't an answer, it isn't allowed to be an answer" is pretty clear and rational.
9:14 PM
Allowing interesting answers to stay up would let people play politics to get their invalid answers upvotes.
And I can't speak for the mods, but from my experiences with them, they agree with that
People aren't very objective at all, so it's better to follow clear rules (no offense, people)
Honestly, we just need more people to clarify questions and find edge cases when questions are in the Sandbox.
Just from my standpoint, there are interesting solutions that I've felt bad deleting before, but you know how much of a pain it would be if I had to go through and analyze every invalid answer for if it's interesting enough (or worse, has the potential to be edited to focus on how it's interesting), check the vote counts and activity, look through the comments to see what people think, and then probably deal with complaints from people regarding if it's interesting regardless of if I delete it?
In terms of removing invalid answers, moderation could be removed like you said, but it facilitates the process of removing answers that shouldn't be here because otherwise you'd need three votes which would take a long time to get things done.
And that's only for answers with a negative score
Without mod power, invalid answers would stay around just because even one person voted it up, possibly from HNQ without even reading it through
which is why I also think votes are not a good way to determine the merit of something staying on the site, it would have to be case-by-case and subjective, which just complicates everything
I suppose in the case of specific instances of interesting but invalid answers, we could have meta discussions to not delete it and instead lock it as something cool but that isn't valid and shouldn't be done by other users answering it? I think I have the ability to do that, and we've definitely made similar decisions with questions before like how the showcase says that it exists for communtiy reasons but similar questions shouldn't be posted
9:40 PM
Morning everyone!
10:09 PM
Anyone want to hear a joke?
why not
10:21 PM
@Wezl Yeah, me too
10:37 PM
Huh, you can apparently resize the text box here
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Also, you shouldn't mess with HTML.
one of my favorite JS oneliners: document.body.innerText += 1;
Considering posting this in a bit, any final feedback?
@Wezl actually helpful against some ads and paywalls
@ChartZBelatedly none that would be useful
@Wezl Doesn't disabling JS solve most of that?
10:51 PM
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI it also removes disgusting css
@Wezl CSS may be disgusting to write, but looking at websites that use it much more pleasant than a bunch of plaintext
I have a variant (with dark theme) in a bookmarklet and a separate bookmarklet that includes that as well as vis keys
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI certainly depends on the website
Solution: look at every webpage as the raw HTML+CSS+JS
It doesn't at all hurt my eyes :P
Mar 22 at 22:24, by ChartZ Belatedly
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Personally, my brain can send and receive packets, so I don't even need a computer :P
@ChartZBelatedly I'm not surprised, given the feats your brain is capable of :P
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Well yeah, my brainpower isn't enough to render HTML and CSS :P
Such high expectations, jeez :P
10:55 PM
Can you at least hack into anyone's computer through sheer mental effort?
Depends on their firewall. Roasted grey matter is no laughing matter
CMQ: When was your last suggested edit?
I think there was a show where someone implants a smartphone in their head or something and then they turn into a computer.
@ChartZBelatedly September 29
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Found it, it's called iBoy
10:59 PM
@Wezl Thanks, but I'm good. I don't accept candies scripts from strangers :P
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Wait, iBoy is British. Aren't you British too, ChartZ Belatedly?
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI I am, but I haven't seen all British TV there is to see :P
@ChartZBelatedly I don't know, it seems pretty suspicious, having two Brits with the same superpowers...
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI Oh, didn't you know that all British people can do that? Yeah, it happens immediately after you swear undying allegiance to the queen :P
Wait, I've only suggested 7 edits.
@ChartZBelatedly So that's what the monarchy is for :P
@OriginalOriginalOriginalVI it's also for harvesting people's organs to support prince philip's immortality
11:03 PM
I always wondered how people communicated in ancient times. I guess it must have been easy if you were English :P
@rak1507 I'm resisting the temptation to star this
Looks like someone else did it anyway, so whatever, I'll just star it too.
11:34 PM
@ChartZBelatedly imagine having the sidebar present.
made by burger menu gang
@ChartZBelatedly March 22 last year. Apparently tag info edits count as suggestions.

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