English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

13:00

I think

or an answer was deleted, at any rate

@MetaEd you mean like this?

skullpatrol

Has anybody seen this question?

7

Q: Is this road-sign grammatically correct?

I passed the roadsign below while driving home late last night, and realised that despite how many times I had seen it, I was still surprised by the choice of words used and unsure if it was actually grammatically correct. After all, the wording on roadsigns is crucial. As we all know, it needs ...

As your car gets washed away...

MetaEd

13:20

@MattЭллен Yes, like that.

Based on what you are saying and the fact that the question still exists, I'm going to guess it was a downvoted answer that was deleted, in this case.

Matt Эллен

it's probably that the answer was deleted and you'd downvoted it then

MetaEd

Yeah. That.

Matt Эллен

yeah

lol

MetaEd

Yeah.

There’s a pronounced echo in here.

Frank Science

tribute is far away from tribuere.

Cerberus

13:22

Why is it far away?

MetaEd

Maybe it can't get a cab.

Cerberus

As you know, it is from the supine stem (same as the stem of the past participle).

@MetaEd Hah. Hah.

Frank Science

tribute means paid taxes, ok?

Matt Эллен

tribute means giving a gift or payment because you are required to or because you admire or adore the thing you are giving tribute to

Frank Science

But tribuere doesn't have this meaning.

Cerberus

13:27

Why not?

It can mean something like pay, give.

Mitch

Re the quality of the Town Hall meeting:
- there were two people who didn't 'get it', one was a nominee. Sadly those two I were the ones that introduced just enough weirdness to tarnish the process.
- the rest of the candidates answered seriously, which I thought was great, but as some one mentioned, not particularly exciting because I could think 'Yes, that's a good point, I like that', and then to a slightly different answer, 'Well yes, that's a good point too'.

- I thought there was too much unnecessary commentary in between the questioning and answering, too much everyday chatting. If you ignore that, the questions and answers are just as good as in the previous town hall.
- My only wish then would be to have all the nominees answer the questions off-line and submit them (like Matt and Kiamlaluno have done. (that is have some response from all the nominees, it felt like there were only 3 or 4 answering in the town hall)

KitFox

Any SQL folks around?

Mitch

and WTH was the Marxism question about? was that actual red-baiting? of EC?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I will help if I can

KitFox

It's a sorta complicated join question.

Robusto

13:35

revises his views on Che Guevara

@KitFox Oh, FFS, not another freakin' SQL orgy. In the continuum of orgies, those rank way near the bottom.

KitFox

I want to join two tables, but if the date (one of the join criteria) is null, I want to use the next available date.

I can't figure how to do this.

@Robusto Hey, OK. I'll take it to Mr.Shiny's room.

Mitch

@Robusto that's -all- logistics.

Robusto

Just make sure all joins are between consenting tables.

Cerberus

@Mitch But those two livened up the whole affair, I was rather pleased with their input, because I already know the others were decent fellas anyway.

skullpatrol

I like this sign :-)

KitFox

13:37

@Matt

I can haz jQuery?

Programming chat

Robusto

@Cerberus I see. You watch the Tour de France hoping for a crash in the peloton, no?

Cerberus

@Mitch Off-line answers might be a good idea, I support this.

skullpatrol

tchrist

Etymological fallacy

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This is a linguistic misconception. An argument constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology. A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies, or claiming that a word should be used in a particular way because it has a particular etymology. A similar concept is...

skullpatrol

Duh?

Cerberus

13:38

@Robusto If somehow I were forced to watch that, then even crashed couldn't prevent me from dozing off in seconds.

Mitch

@Cerberus sure. I was just trying to address Robusto's assessment of the chat as a clusterfuck. I don't think it was that bad.

Matt Эллен

Reg's argument against offline answers is that there's not point having it in chat if you're just going to answer off line

Mitch

@Robusto um..duh.

kiamlaluno

May somebody takes off bold, and big font from Carrol's text? It's rather annoying.

Robusto

@tchrist Word.

Cerberus

13:39

@Mitch He really seemed to exhibit Marxist tendencies, so I asked him. It was interesting.

tchrist

wonders whether offline answers involve postal mail

Mitch

@MattЭллен I see that point. but then also what's the point of the town hall if not all the nominees are there? and if the rabble is not kept from rousing?

Robusto

@Mitch No, it wasn't as bad as, say, Gulf War II or an American presidential election, but it was way worse than the original ELU mod election.

kiamlaluno

Who has stolen the avatars?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, OK, agreed.

Robusto

13:40

@kiamlaluno Me. You can have them back for $1.99 each.

Cerberus

I wasn't there during the first meeting.

Mitch

@Robusto side by side comparison, yes.

Cerberus

@Mitch sorry

Mitch

I think more control of informality would have made it go better. less chat-like stuff going on.

tchrist

@FrankScience See “etymological fallacy”.

Robusto

13:41

I mean, whatever happened organization and civility?

Frank Science

@tchrist The words could be unrelated to its etymologic meaning, but it's somewhat hard to 2nd language learners.

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Wow, that is cheap! May I have (uhmmm…) four of them?

Robusto

@kiamlaluno There is a sale on. If you buy five you get one free. Also, there is a $5.00 fee for shipping and handling.

Matt Эллен

don't forget sails tax

tchrist

@Robusto 476 A.D.

Cerberus

13:42

@tchrist I do not think this is entirely appropriate: who is making a claim based exclusively on etymology?

Robusto

@tchrist Vandal!

kiamlaluno

@FrankScience Well, everybody is a native speaker. That concept doesn't change changing language.

JSBձոգչ

i think it would have been much better to do it as a series of threads on meta

deleting answers from non-candidates

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ Not a bad idea.

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Oh Lord! I want 15 avatars, and I pay cash!

Robusto

13:43

Agreed.

Mitch

@JSBձոգչ it would make it more sober.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno OK. Send me a money order for $19.97 and I will put them in the mail.

Mitch

it would also sadly eliminate the bike crashes.

tchrist

@JSBձոգչ youre not il oprimidor of me!

kiamlaluno

@Robusto OK!

JSBձոգչ

13:44

@Mitch isn't sobriety what we want?

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ Uh, when?

JSBձոգչ

during our chatz

very sober, those

or at least our elections

Mitch

@JSBձոգչ uh...yeah..I was agreeing with you.

Frank Science

@kiamlaluno But if the English words were nothing but nonsense syllables to non-native speaker, it would be so hard for them to learn!

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Oh damn, I cannot photocopy money. You know, I don't have much dollars, here. It's from a year that I don't come to USA.

JSBձոգչ

13:45

yes yes yes

also, i want our mod elections to resemble US presidential elections as little as possible, kthx

Mitch

@FrankScience everything is nonsense, until you learn otherwise, baby or adult.

kiamlaluno

@FrankScience In that case, you cannot understand etymology too.

Wow, desktop notifications work on Safari too.

Mitch

ya gotta start somewhere.

Frank Science

@kiamlaluno Yeah, if that, no etymology would be stated.

tchrist

@Cerberus Frank is saying that tribute confuses him because of its semantic distance from tribuĕre. That is redolent of an etymological fallacy.

Cerberus

13:47

@JSBձոգչ But I would like to get free stuff from candidates and be treated to all kinds of entertainment!

@tchrist I don't know, I don't think he has made any such claim. In fact, I still don't understand what he meant exactly.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus you still forget the part where you must bribe me for that.

Mitch

@tchrist yeah, Frank shouldn't do that. etymologies help but, native speakers don't have access to that (well, only the rare scholar does).

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA You confuse bribery with tribute.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA No, voters don't bribe: only industries.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist bribe me and I'll stop.

kiamlaluno

13:48

Bride?

tchrist

ties threads together

Cerberus

@Mitch So what is he doing exactly?

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus do the industries pay bribes or protection fees?

Mitch

@JSBձոգչ I don't think the US is so special in that regard. The whole world is a gossip

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ I think mostly bribes, in the American case?

JSBձոգչ

13:49

true

kiamlaluno

Sings "Oh Lord, would not bride me a Mercedes Benz…". :)

Matt Эллен

:D

simchona

@JSBձոգչ You edited the troll this morning, I see

JSBձոգչ

@simchona i didn't notice it was the troll

RegDwight АΑA

So, um, @JSB, you gonna answer any of those Town Hall questions? No coercion, just wondering if I should be checking back or not.

Cerberus

13:50

@Mitch Well, it is quite different here, and in the EU bureaucracy too, perhaps mostly because we don't have an elected leader with lots of power.

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/461/…

Mitch

@Cerberus Exactly? danged if I know. I'm just juming in halfway into a conversation I don't understand, and responding reflexively to context I don't know.

RegDwight АΑA

Also @marthaª and @Matt

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ Oh, yes, I have listened to that broadcast, it is pretty good (and alarming).

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwightАΑA at this point, probably not

do you think i should?

RegDwight АΑA

13:51

Okay.

Cerberus

@Mitch I think we're all doing that.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightАΑA I've answered. it's in the meta thread

Mitch

@Cerberus I think the US has better resources for media representation and digging up crap.

RegDwight АΑA

@MattЭллен oh crap. I even saw that.

Matt Эллен

:D

maybe you mistook me for yourself

RegDwight АΑA

13:53

It's just that right now I was in the "don't forget anyone" mode.

And as you will happily acknowledge, you were the last to cross my mind.

Frank Science

Consider an awesome situation.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA genuflects

Matt Эллен

I acknowledge

Frank Science

One day, John found that English words are too long to memorize.

JSBձոգչ

good ol' @Reg, always thinking of me last

RegDwight АΑA

13:54

@JSBձոգչ what? I'm talking at Matt.

Mitch

@MattЭллен Oh. hm. asked and answered. I forgot that the chat would be cleaned up and put in meta.

That sorta fixes all the problems I had with the town hall.

Frank Science

He made a list of the word, gave each word a rank number, then he would use a sequence of number to denote a sentence.

Cerberus

@Mitch How do you mean?

Robusto

Who moderated the Town Hall chat last time? Was it Rebecca?

Cerberus

Grace, I believe.

RegDwight АΑA

13:55

@JSBձոգչ no idea. Going by the primary votes that indicate people aren't too familiar with you, you might wish to do that. But no idea, honestly.

tchrist

@Mitch Then you’re more easily appeased than I am.

Mitch

Just more people altogether in the journalism business. so there's just more people out there to pick up dumb (and smart) stuff to pass it on to us.

Cerberus

@FrankScience Very efficient. Everyone knows that random numbers are easier to remember than words.

3

RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto Rebecca, yes.

Robusto

But we also had a more civil group then as well.

RegDwight АΑA

13:56

It wasn't all too bad.

Everfybody ignored Carlo except for Grace and Shog, whose job it was not to.

Frank Science

@Cerberus Therefore all the etymology or morphology vanished.

Cerberus

Yeah it was OK.

RegDwight АΑA

And Evan was surprisingly civil, and less crazy than I expected. And Cerberus tied him up in a discussion anyway.

Cerberus

@FrankScience Yes! Everyone knows etymology and morphology are useless.

They never help at all.

RegDwight АΑA

@Cerberus but what about logomorphy and mologethic?

Matt Эллен

13:58

totally useless. why learn the history of a word? it's just going to confuse you.

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA 'Twas a pleasure.

@MattЭллен Yes, absolutely. Just buy Apple.

Frank Science

Now let's have a try for this good model.

RegDwight АΑA

@MattЭллен there's a question for that! BRB

Cerberus

@RegDwightАΑA I'm afraid one of those words is incorrectly formed.

RegDwight АΑA

2

Q: How important is a word origin?

I wonder what will happen after knowing the origin of a word. I see 7-8 questions about it everyday. Is it really useful?

discussion questions

Matt Эллен

13:59

I mean, the slang for cigarette (in the UK) is etymologically related to the slang for gay man. Does anyone care?

Cerberus

@FrankScience 12 984001 7.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA That's because moderators go slumming in hellbanned user-resorts for their holidays.

I can haz jQuery?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…