@AviFS QWOCT

yeah maybe it's been in the 19th byte

No solid wiki page yet

@Lyxal I'm making an esolang based on the zipmap

@AviFS vyxal: ²ʁ∺?(v¬)10`⌺⎕`ť

@Third-party'Chef' that sounds interesting!

Will it have deep reduction?

@AviFS normal mapping still exists... Vyxal's a golfing language after all

It'd be stupid not to have plain mapping

The zipmap is simply a concept that could be used in things like decision-problems and integer challenges

Like "find the first value that makes n greater than x"

@Third-party'Chef' vectorising reduction

That's a better name

@AviFS actually, the Vyxal solution would be ²ʁ∺?(v¬)10`⌺⎕`ťw

Because my original solution didn't wrap it into a square

@Lyxal No. Actually, it doesn't have any concept of explicit map at all.

Overview of the language:

Nilads: You push a nilad along with its complement, the complement goes first.

E.g. if you push 2, the stack will push 2, -2 instead.

Monads: You apply the defined operation, along with a "complement-operation".

E.g. The complement operation for 1-range is reverse-1-range, so 3R will push [1, 2, 3], [3, 2, 1].

Dyads: The only part of the language that works normally.

With two operands, it vectorizes (if possible). With a list operand, it reduces the dyad by the list.

@Third-party'Chef' wait what's the complement of a string?

@Lyxal The reverse of the string.

@Third-party'Chef' ah, I see.

So how would I write a hello word program?

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm sure now that the mod-2 method won't work now. Because -2 will get in the way of a normal % operation.

Simply "Hello, World!" wouldn't suffice

@Lyxal "!dlroW, olleH"

(This ensures that R=+ is the simplest way of parity test)

@Third-party'Chef' but there's two strings though

So is there a pop operator?

And never mind my inability to type. I'm on my gosh dang mobile keyboard

@Lyxal Actually, there "is". The complement operation of the pop operation is the duplicate operation, so duplicate is executed before pop.

Therefore, the so-called "pop" function is actually an identity function!

@Third-party'Chef' so how do I discard a value?

And on that note, how do I duplicate a value?

Because clearly, normal dup and pop are nops

@Lyxal Well, you can't do that, basically...

@Third-party'Chef' oh

Could I multiply by 0?

"Hello, World!"*0

@Lyxal The usual constant 0 will push 2 0's... but you can triple-swap up a bottom constant up and then do the multiplication.

But that would just make both strings empty though

"Hello, World!"0S*++

@Third-party'Chef' what does S do?

S = Triple swap. a b c -> b c a

And is this stack-based or tacit?

Stack-based.

@Third-party'Chef' what's its complement operation?

@Lyxal Uhh, from dyads and on, operands work normally. So swap can also work as usual.

S seems like a monad

BTW the complement operation is a separate function: \ : a b c -> c a b

So it has to have a complement operation

@Lyxal What do you think its monadic behavior is?

Because S requires 3 operands on the stack.

@Third-party'Chef' swap the top three

Oh wait

Monads only take one value

Meaning it's actually a triad

Oh

Welp, nevermind me!

All of this pain ensures that the range method is always the shortest method for the parity test. :)

@Lyxal To make it a programming language, we still need to write a primalty tester.

Any unique ideas on primalty testing?

(Preferrably involving zipmap)

Range from 2 to input-1, input again, reverse stack, modulo, does it contain 0.

That's how

That could possibly be a zipmap

@Third-party'Chef'

Range from 2 to input-1, modulo (by implicit input), does it contain 0.

Yes

Let's convert this code to an actual code...

L$I\%0+C

Since C (contains) is a dyad, we don't need a complement operation.

But having L represent a [2..n-1] range is just too excessive.

We need to construct L from R here.

[2..n-1], swap, input, ``, modulo, 0, add, contains.

@AviFS hi! yes, i am

i haven't really got any new ideas lately since i finished the naz specification, but i'm happy to have been invited

Ahh, I got an idea!

Pop: removes the last item off the list. The complement operation is removing the first item off the list.

So if we find the intersection of these two lists, then we would have a 2..n-1 range!

@AviFS I consider BF and Hexagony usable, but not too usable. (why did you place Assembly and Befunge after BF?)

@AviFS Or, HQ9+ level?

I think DIVCON is too usable. Primalty testing and add two numbers are so easy...

I'm not sure about the level it's in.

@mypronounismonicareinstate Assembly is even easier to use than C, IMO.

@AviFS mypronounismonicareinstate's username is even harder to get correct...

You can make the username a pseudo-random number seed!

Hehe

CMQ: Mention language on TIO that doesn't have any loops, you can't do any arithmetic, and you can't take any input!

Answer: it's res

@Third-party'Chef' i remember that!

I wrote a secret queue to stack tutorial using html comments in the README.md file

@Lyxal It proves that Dennis's baseline for a TIO-addable language is very low.

@Third-party'Chef' It's Bubblegum! In /// there are also no direct loops or arithmetic or input, but it's Turing-complete

@Third-party'Chef' I guess so

@mypronounismonicareinstate Although you could simulate one in ///.

@mypronounismonicareinstate You can run Python code in Bubblegum, although it's highly difficult. Also, in the primalty checker, the translated Python code involves arithmetic!

Too bad the keyboard shift doesn't work anymore! I'm gonna remove it from the spec.

Come on! You guys aren't actually all online now of all times! It's 4:35 AM where I am...

(Also for @cairdcoinheringaahing. Don't leave us out of the party :p)

Whoo-hoo! Now res has just became a useless queue-manipulation tool.

@AviFS hehe timezones go brr

I decided to name this language DDuuaall.

From now on this will be the dev log of DDuuaall, until someone came up with another idea here.

Epic

esolangs.org/wiki/DDuuaall

Cool beans

I still found some problems in the Primalty Checker.

There are still some items on the stack that could be printed.

How to get rid of the items: triple swap, contains, *0, add.

Wouldn't there be a print function?

There is, but print will print the complement along with the original (since it's monadic)

And then, implicit output won't be cancelled after that...

Wait why.

(Which would yield inpersistent values, a ban for decision problem contests.)

Usually, explicit output turns off implicit input

So uh

Shouldn't it turn off i. Output?

Remember, in DDuuaall, things execute along with their complement function. So the complement function of explicit output is implicit output.

So that means input is taken twice each time

So, uh, that

that

that's another problem

Explicit input is indeed taken twice: once as the original, another as the complement.

@Third-party'Chef' so that means all programs w/ input need fixing

(As per the usual rules of pushing nilads onto the stack)

@Lyxal What do you mean?

@Third-party'Chef' well the extra input has to be accounted for.

Meaning the odd/even program is invalid

Well, implicit output doesn't output twice here, right? Let's be consistent and make implicit input that way too...

@Third-party'Chef' but it's not doing it's complement then

(We need a wimpmode to make sure that the range method is the shortest even/odd test )

@Lyxal Any ideas at making implicit input doing the job, as well as making the range method shorter than modulo-2?

Also, @Third-party'Chef', how can you be in France if your timezone is 2 hours behind mine? I'm in NSW, Australia (East-Coast), and France is not 2 hours behind where i am.

@Third-party'Chef' I guess make output/input be exceptions to the monad rule

@Lyxal CGCC users could pretend to be cats, they could pretend to be penguins, they could pretend to be anything.

@Third-party'Chef' aha

I see

Carry on then

@Lyxal Then, we will have a wimpmode. Obviously that's not going to impress people, right...?

@Third-party'Chef' no wimpmode, just builtin

Most of our monads/nilads, however, behave really weirdly. Nevermind.

I'll set a challenge for myself. I'll try to implement AviFS's CMC in DDuuaall.

What CMC?

(BTW double speak is ,, pair the input with itself (vectorizing))

Sorry, it's CMQ...

Really weird naming.

I don't understand. Which light switch do we have to flip? What is ⍵?

In other words: Print a ⍵×⍵ checkerboard.

Well, they're the same state...

1-range. [1, 2, 3] [1, 2, 3]

Cartesian product.
[1,1] [1,2] [1,3]
[2,1] [2,2] [2,3]
[3,1] [3,2] [3,3]

Vectorizing +.

Vectorizing even/odd check.

Repeat input times: Invert the bit

(Invert bit is just 1-x)

We invert only if input is odd.

Lastly: index into ⌺⎕.

@AviFS Can we output 0 and 1 instead of the special non-ASCII characters?

I guess it's implementation time, right?

Firstly though, I need to make a list of all commands in DDuuaall...

Ahh, we need to implement count by ourselves.

I think the C instruction is extra.

Vectorizing equal, and sum the copy...

0+C -> 0+=+

I was trying to introduce cartesian product into the language too!

How do I do x>0 in the language?

Increment, 1-range, pop, is this empty?

but how do I check list emptiness here?

I feel like it's not as comfortable as dealing with DIVCON. I'm not implementing it anyway.

I might feel like simplifying the language a few days later.

(Evidently, DIVCON is incomplete so far)

I loved my first main site answer in DIVCON, haha!

Stop being so egotistical, okay?

OMG How did I get 2.6k messages in this chatroom!?

@Third-party'Chef' True, I made a mistake! Did you try clicking the link though? It's fixed there!

@Third-party'Chef' Because you moved everything, haha

@AviFS Well, the link there is still the same thing.

@Third-party'Chef' Shoot! Really?

The font of the pastebin is so big!

@AviFS dzaima.github.io/paste/…

@Third-party'Chef' Here you go:

dzaima.github.io/paste/…

The third mistake: the shorturl mistake!

(3 mistakes in 7 messages, 3 out of 7!)

@Third-party'Chef' Haha yeah, that's in the 'Setup JS' tab!

You can also make it small like this:

dzaima.github.io/paste/…

@Third-party'Chef' Haha, true!

@mypronounismonicareinstate Each of those is a light. ⎕ is off, ⌺ is on. They're all toggled of/on by the light switch. (Spoiler: You just oscillate back and forth between the two corrected board states)

If you set the font size to be 0, it actually got bigger

@Third-party'Chef' dzaima.github.io/paste/…

@Third-party'Chef' You have to click 'copy link' first

@AviFS Well, isn't that the same link...

But it's a pastebin made by @dzaima for APL/BQN syntax highlighting. Super useful in APL Orchard! Unless you add other syntax highlighting languages in the JS, it won't be useful here

@Third-party'Chef' Shoot! That's really weird... Did you fix it?

Awesome, you invited dzaima to The Tarpit!

Pretty sure it was still size 200 before...

@Third-party'Chef' Nah, didn't ping him because he's never come!

@AviFS I fixed it before you sent the link.

@Third-party'Chef' Ah!

The current thing that I'm trying to solve is to count from 1 to the input in DIVCON.

I've already made an input-to-1 counter: i# S# -[o# -;]

But how in the world should I could from 1 to the input?

I was thinking about accessing the previous-branch accumulators, but I don't want to involve that concept here.

Problem solved without any help here!

@AviFS Language idea: Usually "of" is a dyad taking two operands. But what happens when you use it as a state?

Well, you can decide if an "of" operation can result into this value.

If the value can be resulted from an "of" operation, then the state is therefore "of".

In its full form, the state is x of y.

@AviFS Can we use ASCII alternatives for these characters?

Like, space for off, # for on.

Or even easier: Can we output 0 for off, and 1 for on?

@Third-party'Chef' Haha, that's why I still haven't released Muck. I just cheat. I'm doing as many problems in it as I can and if anything is ever too difficult/ugly to solve, I add another feature to do it!

@Third-party'Chef' Well that hurts :p

@Third-party'Chef' Sure!

@Third-party'Chef' This was originally APL-specific where indexing (and these chars) are no issue. As a general purpose problem for all languages it shouldn't require more than 0/1. But I wanted to show off that Muck could do it elegantly even with those restrictions. The 0/1 in Muck was already doable before. Just stamp it by 2, instead of creating C=⎕⌺ for that.

So for your own lang, just do whichever is more interesting/better showcases your lang. I'll make it more strict when I upload to PPCG

@all

This is what I mean. Free rep points await!

Sorry, I forgot there's a chatroom for SO. I was just thinking between this and the 19th Byte, and since it's so dead I chose here

Hmmm... I was trying to move it to their main chat room but can't figure out which it is... Anyone know?

I just learned that Python has a debugger. (also, I expect SO to have at least 10 main chat rooms, with several review queues so that they can quickly close and edit chat messages that they can't respond to)

@mypronounismonicareinstate Hmm, I see. Thanks! I just learned about PDB, too :)

→ 2 messages moved to The 2nd Monitor

← 2 messages moved from The Tarpit

→ 1 message moved to The 2nd Monitor

← 1 message moved from The Tarpit

Seems to be the most active, reasonably related room. Although it's for Code Review rather than SO

yo @AviFS what the....

← 6 messages moved from The 2nd Monitor

Delightfully exciting announcement! The [Muck]() Room is now live and in it is the first Muck CMQ! First one to solve it will forever be remembered as the first person aside from me to write a program in Muck!

@Zeta Welcome! Are you interested in esolangs?!

This is a room for throwing esolang ideas around, experimenting, and developing them!

@AviFS Jelly, 8 bytes ²RḂ¬⁹¡s⁸

There's probably a shorter version

@AviFS You forgot to link to the room

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hahaha, too funny!

I think if you search Muck, you should find it :p

The Muck Room!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Might I ask what you're up to during the day? Seems like you might've caught a gig!

Well, if we are just having any output format, Vyxal, 9 bytes ²ʁ∺?(v¬)w

You only come on late at night your (UK) time.

Thinking of starting off our weekly/bi-weekly teaching things with Muck! Would really like to teach you guys and share what there is as of now. It's unlikely that anything at all major should be changed. Mainly tweaking and adding a few more features and more robust interpreter, probably

@sporeball excitedly wrote the first Muck program by anyone else. A golfed hello world!

@AviFS I‘m still unemployed, so mostly I take care of chores around the house

besides, from past experience, I‘ve found I tend to use SE more when I‘m at work

@cairdcoinheringaahing I see, same here! Except I'm living in the abandoned dorms so minimal chores!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Too funny!

What I meant to say about the teaching thing was to ask when works for everyone (day and UTC time)? When should we have our periodic sessions?