The Tarpit

12:00 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Easy! Just put a show timer on how long something will run, and allow a command line argument to change the timer's time if it times-out during what you know should work

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS But what if the loop takes longer?

AviFS

Especially easy because there's no other way around it, given it's the Halting problem and all... Only solution

caird coinheringaahing

It's akin to solving the halting problem

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing ??? It can only take as long as the timer will let it.

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Let's say the loop is "loop until x happens" and it takes say 5 hours for x to happen?

AviFS

12:01 AM

You have it running in a separate thread. In the main, you simply abort the thread after x delay

caird coinheringaahing

The loop is due to end, but won't for another 5 hours

AviFS

Oh no! We lost @Lyxal again!

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Happened a while back

AviFS

Only just registered on my computer

Will bug you about the different golfing objective once the lang is actually done and it makes sense to start comparing which is the 'better' program. I still like my idea though

@cairdcoinheringaahing Not happy with a timer?

There's really no other way around it...

Being the Halting problem and all...

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS It does provide a way to score Sample programs in a Sample-only code golf challenge

@AviFS cracks knuckles I best get solving then :P

AviFS

12:05 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Even among Sample programs in an all-language challenge though. I think that's how they should score. It's not the default, and won't be enforced, but 'better' solutions between the same lang never are. I simply suggest that being the standard by which Sample programs are judged, unless declared otherwise

It certainly solves specification frustration. The fun should really be in the coding IMO

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS The score could be included in answers, but definitely wouldn't be considered valid in a standard code-golf challenge

AviFS

And in the joy of making the 5 char programs that solve the Halting problem, as you say. Regardless of how long the pesky specifications have to be for that :p

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hahahaha

@cairdcoinheringaahing Of course! Not saying it should be. But it doesn't matter what's valid in CG bc its not enforced on SE

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah

AviFS

I'm just saying if you see a Sample program and think I can do better than that! it should mean you can golf the code bit. Regardless of the total length

@cairdcoinheringaahing Also, not sure how great a name it is... Will probably be confused for 'a sample program' with an uppercasing typo (or just a foreigner :p)

caird coinheringaahing

in The Nineteenth Byte, Jan 9 '18 at 20:55, by Wheat Wizard

Ok we have selected a name it is "Jelly, 3 bytes"

AviFS

12:10 AM

Such a common mistake for non-English natives to capitalize 'exciting', ahem, excuse me, I meant 'important' words. Like they did in Old English

@cairdcoinheringaahing ???

@cairdcoinheringaahing OMGOMGOMGOMGOGMGMGOGMOGMGOG

I get it!!!! Hahahahhahhahahhaahaha

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Talking about great language names :P

AviFS

That's toooooo amazing!!!!!!!!!!

caird coinheringaahing

My aim is to get a language for each letter of the alphabet

AviFS

Going there to star it! LMAO! Should be a meme!

caird coinheringaahing

I was thinking Branch, but I already have B

@AviFS Glad you enjoy iy :P

AviFS

12:13 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Haha

@cairdcoinheringaahing What's IY? Google has failed me...

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS A typo :P

AviFS

Warning, rated R: IY

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Definitely didn't mean that

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sorry, should have put the warning first! Whoops...

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS For sure didn't expect to see that, even on urbandictionary

AviFS

12:18 AM

Luckily, no warning is needed for this

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Absolute banger

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hahaha, thanks! Glad I can still get away with it every now and then!

caird coinheringaahing

Also, remind me to never click any link ever :P

@AviFS It's a shame that it's become a meme, cause I actually like the song

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hahaha, every tale has a moral :p

@cairdcoinheringaahing IKR!?!?!??!?!?!?!

I definitely listen to it!!

caird coinheringaahing

Everytime it comes on, it's like "Wow, haha, you got us", but it's genuinely a banger

AviFS

12:24 AM

And not in the same realm that I listen to this. Though I've definitely listened to the full version countless times for nostalgia...

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Never really been a fan of that, but I can understand liking it

AviFS

Also, any chance you're old enough to remember this classic?

caird coinheringaahing

Imma have to go sleep now, but if you have any thoughts on Sample, don't hesitate to let me know

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing For nostalgic purposes, the original is actually quite nice.

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Oh of course I know that one

@AviFS How about this?

AviFS

12:26 AM

But Never Gonna Give You Up is the only one I definitely listen to with all my other 80's!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Phew! We can be friends now :D

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS The one true test :P

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing O

@cairdcoinheringaahing M

@cairdcoinheringaahing G

...

My life has finally been fulfilled

caird coinheringaahing

Blast from the past? :P

AviFS

I can never begin to thank you enough, caird!!!

I wouldn't have even remembered that gorgeous symphony enough to look it up, or know how/when/where/why!

I've certainly never ever seen that video before! Pure gold!

But I feel like I know it better than anything I've ever known in my life, and I don't even know from where!!!

It's like it's a part of me, it's unbelievable! LOL

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Seriously? That's up there with the duck song or numa numa for classic youtube

AviFS

12:30 AM

It honestly transcends time & space. I can't put a name/place/person/age/ ANYTHING to it...

@cairdcoinheringaahing ⍤⍤⍤

Uh oh... Now I better look up Numa Numa

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Your life is about to change... :P

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing OMG................ YOU'RE KILLING ME MAN!!!

I legit started dancing!!!!!

I know that one just as well, and I'm just as clueless as to where I could have ever heard it

Also never seen that video... Can't help feeling slightly bad that the whole time that heavenly treasure is sort of making fun of a not able person... But DAMN is that fire!!!

Just so we can finish this chapter in our lives and I can let you go to bed:

There's also Hee-man, The Assumptions Song, ZYX, Periodic Table of Elements. Any others I'm missing?

Of course, Gangnam/Pineapple-Apple-Pen... but is that really the same? Come on...

And obv. Baby & It's Friday

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go finish those videos you sent me on full-blast and give them their proper due & respect

But please do let me know if there's any more I've missed. You've been a godsend thus far!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Honestly though, I could just shrivel up in a ball and die now. That's it. I've achieved everything I could have possibly dreamed of & sssssoooooo much more

caird coinheringaahing

The Evolution Of Viral Video - The Try Guys

►

But I should be sleeping :P

Lyxal

12:46 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing same

@AviFS you need this and this

Also, I'm only going to be intermittently checking my phone today, so I'll be afk for periods of time

AviFS

There's also that one NSFW shock site, but I'm not saying anything more here. It's seriously not advisable for... anyone

@cairdcoinheringaahing Awesome, thanks! Will watch in case I've missed anything else

AviFS

1:04 AM

@Lyxal Haha! Can't believe I missed the all-classic All Star (pun intended!). I actually have never heard nor seen the second, though I of course know Lazy Town!

Gotta say Lazy Town is even wackier than I remembered!

AviFS

1:35 AM

Lots of classics I missed in the video! One they forgot though is Dumb Ways to Die!

Third-party 'Chef'

3:03 AM

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Third-party 'Chef'

3:31 AM

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AviFS

3:50 AM

→ 2 messages moved to The Pi Channel

Third-party 'Chef'

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AviFS

Is it just me or should someone have to be a mod/RO of both rooms to move stuff... Seems like it has the potential to be disastrous

Third-party 'Chef'

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AviFS

@Third-party'Chef' What are you up to? The Pi Channel is a phenomenal place doing great things! Why is everything merging over here?

Third-party 'Chef'

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Third-party 'Chef'

4:14 AM

← 50 messages moved from The Third Bird

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AviFS

@Third-party'Chef' Last Paragraph from exchange in The Pi Channel:

Third-party 'Chef'

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AviFS

@Third-party'Chef' Oh no!!!!! Now you're really tearing apart the archives :(

You're essentially moving every message from every frozen & every 'failed' chat room :(

Third-party 'Chef'

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AviFS

Users of The Tarpit aren't going to scroll back to read all of what you posted though now... If someone wanted to find out about W, they could go through the frozen room's archives. Same for Third Bird. Now it's just all empty and says moved. Instead it's irreconcilably jumbled with the Tarpit's stuff...

Third-party 'Chef'

4:19 AM

← 84 messages moved from [operload ](chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/103784/operload)

AviFS

@Third-party'Chef' Please, I'm begging you, Chef! Please stop this madness!!

@Third-party'Chef' Anyway, do as you choose; do as you must. Really must go to bed now; can't hold out any longer. It's now 5:30 AM local time...

Third-party 'Chef'

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AviFS

In the future though, I'm thinking mass migration from chatrooms should be discouraged until we've discussed it as a community! There are lots of potential sources, if you're of the mind that doing so is a net good. However, I think it's the sort of thing we ought to talk about rather than do. One of the reasons I think it's probably a good idea not to have everyone be RO.

This way, the RO can enforce that important-ish decisions have a consensus first, rather than one person doing and the next person undoing, without even realizing, creating chaos.

It's now been 20 hrs of being up. Good night all!

Third-party 'Chef'

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Lyxal

9:03 AM

←3000 messages moved from Sixth Barrel

2

Now that's out the way, I was thinking of discussing an esolang idea I've been thinking about. I call it the zipmap

It's a kind of map where a function is applied to an iterable object, and the results are zipped with the original values.

E.g. The function n*2 zipmapped to the list ‹1|2|3› would produce ‹‹1|2›|‹2|4›|‹3|6››

If you're wondering why I showed lists like that, it's because that's what lists look like in Vyxal

Which consequently is the esolang I'm thinking of adding this concept to

Any thoughts or feedback on zip maps?

Third-party 'Chef'

11:15 AM

Feedback: I'm thinking of some after-process that allows application in the deepest nesting level.

Deep-reduce: Implicit map, and reduce the deepest nested lists by the given function.

E.g. a+b deep-reduced to the list ‹‹1|2›|‹2|4›|‹3|6›› will yield ‹3|6|9›.

Third-party 'Chef'

11:36 AM

Thr Teapit

Tre - Tip Hat

Te Hip Tart

Piti Heart

Third-party 'Chef'

11:53 AM

The Tarpit: Path Trite

Piet Trath

Eta Hip Tert

Pear Thitt

Finally, the most English-like anagram!

The Tarpit: Trite Path

This explains why so many people are discussing in this room.

It's because of the anagram!

AviFS

2:22 PM

Hey @sporeball, this is a general chatroom for bouncing ideas for esolangs off each other and developing them! Are you interested? Any ideas you've been playing around with lately?

@Lyxal This & deep-reduce: Am loving these ideas! Will standard mapping still exist or will this supercede it? If it's being replaced, then I think we do have to think about how to make sure it doesn't take away from the elegance of mapping. Eg. implicitly apply functions to the last element in each inner-level of nesting so that <2|4|6> is what gets acted upon/printed unless otherwise specified

@Third-party'Chef' Haha! Vote on one of the anagrams if you'd like the room name to be temporarily (or forever) changed to one of them!

Hey @mypronounismonicareinstate

my pronoun is monicareinstate

Hello?

AviFS

Would still love to know two things:
1. Why you guys are doing it.
2. How I can see which messages you moved!

Honestly a super bummer IMO! I can't go to wren nest and find all of the wren stuff to learn it, now. Nor can anyone else. One is forced to scour tons of pages of this & look back at the original room, back and forth, trying to piece the conversations back together...

my pronoun is monicareinstate

Perhaps certain conversations (that happened at the same time) are now even interleaved with each other in random order

AviFS

@mypronounismonicareinstate :( True...

I really did want to read the Wren/W/Keg stuff, and I'm sure others did too, but now I'm just finding it impossible to find. If you have any advice on how to find all the stuff that was moved from a given chatroom, or all the stuff that was moved together, that'd be really greatly appreciated!

Not to mention the Pi Channel & operload... @Third-party'Chef' @Lyxal Any ideas how the rest of us can find that stuff?

@mypronounismonicareinstate Haha, I meant 'hey' as a shorthand way of saying 'Anything new in what you're working on/Any new ideas?'

AviFS

2:58 PM

@Third-party'Chef' I know you're proud that W is an ASCII-only lang. Just want to point out that if you create a SBCS then you can make it even shorter by doing away with quotation marks much of the time, I'm pretty sure! Letters would automatically be understood to be strings. So you'd just have to quote numbers, and use quotes to separate two adjacent letter strings!

If you still have space of your 256, which you likely will, even numbers don't need quotes as you could add ０１２３４５６７８９ for the string-version of numbers!

AncientSwordRage

3:20 PM

\oo//

ahoy

AviFS

@AncientSwordRage Haha, holy moly! We've a moderator on our toes!

AncientSwordRage

@AviFS Crud. Where... WHERE?!

I was invited btw

just pretend I'm not a mod

shiftily takes notes

AviFS

@AncientSwordRage Welcome, welcome! This is a room to play around with fun & wacky esolang concepts and just throw ideas around!

@AncientSwordRage Hahaha, I don't know! HELP! I thought I heard the footsteps...

@AncientSwordRage :D

AncientSwordRage

I do have Esolang ideas

AviFS

@AncientSwordRage Ah yes, millions of messages were moved by @Lyxal & @Third-party'Chef' from other rooms recently

AncientSwordRage

3:32 PM

@AviFS is that the invite then?

AviFS

Not sure how wise the move was. Although, I do suspect that every last person who ever said anything in those rooms now got an invite!

So, on the bright side!!

@AncientSwordRage Please! Go at it

my pronoun is monicareinstate

I remember getting invited to the silliness chat room when you moved messages there, and caird coinheringaahing, assuming I typed that correctly, seemed to have been invited to Trash too (I think they posted a message about that).

AviFS

Also, any wacky mechanics, primitives, restrictions, numerical representations, etc. that seem interesting to base a language around-- please do share! Whether you've given it a moment's thought or not...

Sort of like the world-building, hypothetical would-it-be-possible room, in addition to actively developing esolangs :D

@mypronounismonicareinstate Wow! Super impressed you even tried to spell that!

BTW, cheap trick I learned in APL orchard: Type '@' and start typing their name until it pops up... then just delete the @ :p

Just takes '@c', tab, cmd-left_arrow, right_arrow, delete!

@mypronounismonicareinstate Haha, the automatic invite is definitely silly sometimes. I think I was also invited to Trash... hurts XD

@all Have to go for a bit, but will be back later! Hope to see you back soon @AncientSwordRage, and please do share your esolang ideas that you mentioned you had.

You can just type them here, and we'll reply/ping you when we come in and read/have feedback!

my pronoun is monicareinstate

I guess I'll just post a thought I keep thinking about here: a language where everything is placed not on a stack but on a max-heap; otherwise, you push and pop (the maximum) normally. I'm not sure how to make that actually usable, but not too usable.

AncientSwordRage

4:00 PM

@AviFS It's mostly interesting because the ESOLANG only allows 8 letters and 8 numbers, namely: QWERTYUI12345678

Each letter has a function as does each combination of two letters

It's a stack based concatenative program thats inspired by both vim and joy

AncientSwordRage

6:48 PM

For instance U and i are for Uncrement and Increment, so insreasing or decreasing values. But IQ is read as Increment Queue, which means to add a new queue to the working queue.

caird coinheringaahing

9:36 PM

> 3000 messages moved from Sixth Barrel

But why?

And yeah, if any of your messages are moved to a room, you're invited to that room

Lyxal

10:34 PM

@AviFS lol I never moved any messages

I just made it look like i did

AviFS

@Lyxal But then what's this? Did you just copy the format?

@Lyxal Ah, didn't see this part!

Hahahahahahahaha, nice one!! I was seriously scared XD

@AncientSwordRage I've definitely read of this language! Maybe on the 19th Byte I did? What is it called? And is there an interpreter/wiki page on it?!

@mypronounismonicareinstate Hmmm, interesting. What's your idea of 'too usable'? Do you mind giving a few examples of langs whose difficulty you like? Because I think I tend to prefer 'too usable' ones so curious to know what we're going for!

Python level? C level? BF level? Assembly level? Befunge level? Hexagony level? Malbolge level?

How's that for a descent into madness?

@Lyxal BTW, you screwed up :p

It should be:

← 3000 messages moved from Sixth Barrel

You forgot the space before 3000 :p

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS You missed Jelly level :P Not too sure where it should go tho

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Haha, yeah wasn't sure either!

caird coinheringaahing

It‘s usable, but only if you know it very well, and the only way to learn it is to already know how to use it :P

AviFS

Neither that nor stack-based langs like 05AB1E, since they're not actually designed to be difficult and it depends a ton on your level of familiarity

@cairdcoinheringaahing My thoughts exactly!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Haskell might be a similar category!

Totally just as easy, and even better, according to anyone who uses it. Mind explosion in the heads of those who don't...

Eg. just like math & programming, haha. Super easy if you like it! Impossible if you don't :p

BTW, short news update on Muck! Just implemented what'll likely become a central & defining feature of it.

Anyone remember how A makes the cycle mod 26 with all the letters of the alphabet? And there's also a built in letter for Unicode/ASCII?

caird coinheringaahing

10:55 PM

@AviFS yeah, what about it?

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing I've implemented what's going to be the only form of variable assignment in the language!

You don't get to assign any variables or functions, per say

But in the header (aka at the top of the code), you can add your own cycles. All the letters are free, except for the one for alphabet/ascii, so you can use them

Eg.

C = '+–×÷'

If you're writing a program to generate mathematical expressions

If you type 'C' at any point, that creates a cycle of 4 looping through those characters!

It creates super interesting logic and makes it completely viable and also interesting & fun for ASCII art problems and problems with lots of fixed boilerplate syntax stuff, which would otherwise make BF coding obnoxious

And it extends the domain from just being natural at numerical problems to all sorts of those other things

Lyxal

@AviFS like a preprocessor?

AviFS

:54917236 What an interesting point!

I've never learned about them

So totally accidental and a super interesting coincidence!

I don't have any finished examples, but I promise it adds a whole new layer of possibilities to the language!

So this is a challenge I wrote for the APL Orchard:

CMQ: You have a grid of lights arranged on/off in a checkerboard pattern. It's an n by n square grid where n is odd. And n is the right operand, ⍵. There's a light switch connected to each lamp in the grid. The left operand, ⍺, is the number of times you should flip the light switch. Print the final state after ⍺ flips.

⌺⎕⌺     ⌺⎕⌺
⎕⌺⎕     ⎕⌺⎕
⌺⎕⌺     ⌺⎕⌺

Better Visibility of Board States

Note: You may start with the grid in either of the two possible states below. But whatever is given by 0 {...} n must remain consistent throughout as the starting state.

And then a simpler version of the same challenge is one that only takes one input, the number of times to flip the on/off switch. But the board is always a 3×3

The solution to that simpler CMQ is as simple in Muck as:

C=⎕⌺
,C<4+[+>+.+.+.<|]

Try It Online

I shortified the URL and it doesn't work. Try:

https://tio.run/##rVfrcttEFP4dPcUST5E0spXYbZrWSO4kIYUChdILNyE8qrSOF3RDklMnbXkChn@8DI/TFwnn7K6kleymtMNkJiOd8@256ZzvrPOLapmlN68WRZaQMItjGlYsS0vCkjwrKhLR31dU086DoiQuefla08I4KEtyQuN4qu0Ecb4MntPK1cnR8cmnp/c/@/zBF19@9fDrbx59@/jJ02ffff/Djz/p2k5Jcziu/5zCc0QXZD4Pgziez42SxgsTDO3kBUsrQ0exbtYglrJKBeGDnQRrsDUa1@8pvO3XL@GqrLLE1fVawNIFWqHu0wISkcKYVhUtSvd@EJeNMChDxrqiiJ2f06gPK9lZWsswTpaGvRBTYrlkLLQR3dSOGm14IbRDkrSAJuaOY5F3Iq2y89ZqQatVkRIsoHSwt0fqM7KYSRa1Bwai2gI8VKFbbN3omwpXRdHaYgvSCRpltRVhQeu@Y@gmqY@JEhMKiUo/EKh09HwBHZCvqtZZ4AqBKRzHNDUC03X3uVPhzcVeQHOqLCsiAA6KgIGb03VIc@xy6SXpexGdBF8GqyAdmjKmTAXCC3wS2XhQFFO…

Hi again @sporeball! Interested in esolanging?

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