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A J 9

4:29 AM

@PaulWhite9 Rough start for the guest team.

I don't think the match will be played for the rest of the day.

Paul White 9

5:09 AM

@AJ9 Yeah. The weather looks much better for the remaining 4 days.

A J 9

@PaulWhite9 Are you going to watch this game?

Paul White 9

@AJ9 I hope to, but it really depends on workload.

I'd love to get down for at least one day's play.

A J 9

5:21 AM

@PaulWhite9 It's weekend now. Shouldn't be a problem.

Paul White 9

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I don't have a regular 9-5 job

A J 9

ohh

So you have to work on weekends as well?

Paul White 9

Often yes

A J 9

5:50 AM

@PaulWhite9 Looks like my job.

Tom V - try topanswers.xyz

twitter.com/ilanaesswhy/status/1230576521083052033?s=19

John aka hot2use

7:19 AM

Morning

A J 9

M yawns orning

Philᵀᴹ

8:04 AM

/yawn

Tom V - try topanswers.xyz

8:16 AM

Friday \o/

Spring weather as well

Philᵀᴹ

8:42 AM

If "spring weather" is "rain", then yes :-)

A J 9

Yeah, it's cloudy here too but no rain. It felt like almost summer yesterday and now winter.

Andriy M

8:54 AM

Morning

Philᵀᴹ

Maddest thing I've seen on here in a while: dba.stackexchange.com/questions/260218/…

McNets

Morning

Tom V - try topanswers.xyz

9:12 AM

What's the underlying problem you are trying to solve? Surely there must be a better way. — Tom V - try topanswers.xyz 20 secs ago

WhatsThePoint

10:33 AM

hey guys, at a pretty basic level, i have a stored proc along the lines of this. is there any risk of the recursive CTE creating a deadlock, thus requiring the joins to be done with no lock or should i just leave it for now and if it ever occurs then add the nolocks?

SELECT QUERY - joins with nolock
CURSOR
	CALL SP
		SELECT QUERY - joins with nolock
		CALL SP
			RECURSIVE CTE SELECT QUERY
		SELECT QUERY - joins with nolock
		SEND EMAIL
	UPDATE COLUMN

Tom V - try topanswers.xyz

11:28 AM

Or don't add NOLOCK ever

if your construction is waiting for locks, using nolock is basically guaranteed to return something else than you asked for

Paul White 9

12:45 PM

2

A: The company’s commitment to rebuilding the relationship with you, our community

While I am rather pessimistic about whether anyone will manage to clean out the Augias' stable of fiefdoms and overall dysfunctional culture that Stack Overflow seems to have become on the inside.... this is definitely a breath of fresh air and the first corporate communication in years that spar...

Evan Carroll

2:19 PM

zzzzzzzzzz they should just issue a "shut up and go away". I would be in 100% support of it.

"Next person to say Monica gets BANNED" policy.

That community manager is pretty naive. You don't apologize to a community of grieving alt-righters.

you just politely laugh at them, and give them the finger.

James

I think it's funny that you consider the nasty people alt right - I consider the nasty people ctrl-left. I agree with you that there are definitely a lot of nasties though

Paul White 9

3:18 PM

Monica
Monica
Monica

Peter Vandivier

you get banned if you say it once, if you say it three times she appears behind you and provides helpful interpersonal advice

4

Paul White 9

lord knows I could use it

John aka hot2use

I consider nasty people toxic. Or toxic people nasty. Sometimes I even consider toxic nasty people to be nastily toxic.

Paul White 9

That checks out

John aka hot2use

I don't think the keyboard is relevant: ALT, CTRL, DEL, INS, SCRLCK, PAUSE, BREAK

Paul White 9

3:23 PM

I'm PrtScr or possibly SysReq

John aka hot2use

I'd love to be HOME, but I got a maintenance window at 1800.

Been a while since I saw SysReq

Well I have wrecked a few systems.

I guess the direction isn't too relevant as well. Up, Down, Left, Right, In, Out

you shake it all about

James

I always thought those buttons were put there by satan to fuck with me

didn't realize they had a purpose

Paul White 9

James

lol aoeey

*lol sorry

Paul White 9

keyboard issues I see

James

3:33 PM

yea, or finger issues. maybe brain issues...

billinkc

Here we say keys, not buttons

Paul White 9

I'm distressed to see my current keyboard does not have a SysReq key

billinkc

What about your buttonboard?

Paul White 9

😀

Peter Vandivier

@James you're half right, satan put them there to tempt you

@billinkc i call it my keyplank

billinkc

3:37 PM

@PeterVandivier That sounds like a German/Italian literal translation and I love it

Peter Vandivier

der keyplank ist ein mekanikalnicht

con bolognese

billinkc

I know what I'm ordering when I get to Rome

Max Vernon

Chicken?

2

(sorry - that's probably getting old already)

Max Vernon

4:01 PM

@WhatsThePoint consider implementing optimistic concurrency via the database-level setting for READ_COMMITTED_SNAPSHOT or snapshot isolation at the transaction level - read about it here and here

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

Seen on the interwebs today ...

computerworld.com/article/2527153/…

3

@PaulWhite9 Interesting that other folks are focusing on the culture and 'personal fiefdoms.' Every time I've seen dogma deeply embedded in an organisational culture it always arises from somebody using it as a rhetorical device to label and discredit people they view as a threat. I'll still argue that over-the-top PC culture is a red herring and the root cause is somebody's empire building. They just happen to have latched onto this as a rhetorical device.

James

"This self-ordering behavior occurs naturally in the IT world because it is populated by people skilled in creative analysis and ordered reasoning. Doctors are a close parallel. " LOL

(the doctors part)

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

4:28 PM

Empire Building 101:
An empire builder is someone who builds up a network of soft influence within an organisation, usually for self-serving ends. Their objective is to control events surrounding their personal fiefdom and they will interfere with other departments projects, attempt to undermine or obstruct their work or discredit other parties. It's regarded as a major sin in management because of how destructive it can be.

Empire builders can only function when their management turns a blind eye or is otherwise unable to see through their bullshit. Dollars to donuts, the management problems at SE are down to a serious case of empire building.

Find the empire builder by seeing who everybody is fighting with or afraid of. There are consultancy firms that do this sort of thing. Replace the empire builder and replace their line management. Make sure the replacements have a good bullshit detector as you will need to root out the rot they've recruited into the organisation.

A's hire A's. B's hire C's. Joel. You've been preaching it for 15 years. Now practice it.

The SJW stuff is all a red herring. This is entirely about somebody playing toxic power games.

James

"Find the empire builder by seeing who everybody is fighting with or afraid of."

sounds like the SJW's to me

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

Just one. More than one will be fighting with each other.

James

this monica thing was two factions of the sjw's going at it - the Terfs and the Trans

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

Empire builders are always highly manipulative; that's how they operate. Chances are that the source of the problem is someone that the SE board trusts.

Forget the SJWs. They are a red herring.

The SJW dogma is merely a convenient rhetorical tool that the originator is using as a political bludgeon to attack their rivals. They may or may not even believe in it. They've also managed to dog-whistle up some groups of supporters to attack on their behalf - notice that the originating party hasn't actually come forward. The empire builder's MO is to get others to do their dirty work.

Evan Carroll

they fired shog9...

he was the empire builder

what more do you want.

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

4:43 PM

He was a rival to whoever is doing it now.

Evan Carroll

now they need to follow through and "replace their line management. Make sure the replacements have a good bullshit detector as you will need to root out the rot they've recruited into the organisation."

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

news.gallup.com/businessjournal/147779/…

James

I wonder if we will ever learn the identity of the Phantom Menace

Evan Carroll

@James jar jar, isn't this well known now?

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

@James I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hard for someone inside the organisation to figure it out but they're not saying.

Contract work tends to find one being hired by dysfunctional organisations on a semi-regular basis. I've seen three organisations with a serious empire building problem now. It's always one particular individual reporting to incompetent line management.

Weaponised dogma was used in two of those organisations. Empire builders also like to position themselves as confidantes of their management and wage wars against people they consider a threat. The spate of mods leaving smells a lot like a political purge to get rid of potential threats.

The dogma doesn't really matter. I saw one place where somebody managed to use Agile theory as a rhetorical tool.

The inflexibility of the dogma is what makes this smell like empire building. It suggests that it's being used as a rhetorical device rather than as a symptom of a genuinely held belief system.

James

4:51 PM

@EvanCarroll lol i really wish they had gone that route in cannon, it made way more sense

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

That's my two satoshi worth anyway.

James

related: youtube.com/watch?v=ezcP-Ys_voY

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

P.S. The fact that SE is still putting out transparent propaganda is a pretty strong indicator that the problem hasn't been rectified; the source of the toxicity is still working there.

@James Star wars canon is just about an oxymoron.

Evan Carroll

5:11 PM

@James fool, reddit is cannon and it did go that way.

lucas can suck it.

swasheck

canon

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

@EvanCarroll Kathleen Kennedy these days.

@swasheck Haven't seen you in a while. How's it hanging?

swasheck

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells it's been ok. wild last 2.5-3 years

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

@swasheck What have you been up to?

swasheck

job-hopping. traveling. adopting.

the usual

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

5:18 PM

@swasheck Same old here. Bringing intelligence to the business as usual. Now with a wife and two spawn in tow.

swasheck

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells intelligent business isnt really that usual

:D

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

@swasheck No. That's why they need business intelligence consultants to bring intelligence.

swasheck

i figured you'd say something like that

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

Oh, dear. I'm getting predictable.

swasheck

time for some anomaly detection

did you inherit the spawn ... or have you been ... productive?

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

5:21 PM

No. Ours, born and bred.

swasheck

nice work.

i mean ... congratulations

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

Well, I say software engineering is like unprotected sex. You end up supporting it for the next 18 years.

I am one with Baby Shark.

swasheck

mmhmm. mine are 14, 12, and 3. all three love baby shark. i cannot escape it

the older two got hooked on it in s. korea a few years ago when we were meeting the third.

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

My eldest spawn was born in Indonesia about the time it went viral there. When I say I am one with Baby Shark, I was there from the beginning.

My wife likes to watch Korean soaps.

swasheck

ground zero, if you will

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

5:25 PM

Yes.

swasheck

i like to eat korean food

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

At one point they even had baby shark competitions in shopping malls and ads knocking it off.

@swasheck Too much fried rice and deep fried stuff in Indonesian food. It's too fatty - My internals can't really handle it in quantity.

I like kimchi, and bipimbap though.

@swasheck She did most of the work. I kind of helped.

My current ambition is to take a long sabbatical in Indonesia.

Max Vernon

I see we've all been disregarding the close queue, as it should be.

swasheck

5:50 PM

@MaxVernon just like old times

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells that sounds nice. i didnt really eat much of the deep-fried stuff in korea, but i do love kimchi - it takes a bit for the gut to get used to a steady stream of it, though

John aka hot2use

@MaxVernon I would object.

Max Vernon

sorry, @John - I don't follow what you're saying.

John aka hot2use

I've been following the close queue. :-)

...closely.

swasheck

6:24 PM

i object to your objection

Philᵀᴹ

I reject your objection and substitute my own*

* Copied off Mythbusters, ish

dustytrash

7:24 PM

Anyone know If I could do anything to improve this question? I'd like to make it as easy as possible to reproduce/look at. First time on this site

Max Vernon

I think you'll find trees are available at your local garden center. /jk

Tom V - try topanswers.xyz

I'm surprised sql fiddle works today

No seriously that's a good first question. Why do you need the where though?

Max Vernon

yah, I thought it was pretty good too. Too bad no one is left to answer questions on dba.se

Tom V - try topanswers.xyz

Though I'm on mobile. I haven't really tested the output

Also. Friday's are a bit slow in here usually. Don't get upset if you don't get much feedback over the weekend

James

@dustytrash i'm having a hard time figuring out what you need, but I think you need a rank() or lag() function and a cte

dustytrash

7:38 PM

Fair enough, I need the where clause for getting the children given a category. It's part of an application where a user has access to certain categories, and all children of those categories

the Fiddle works and gives the output described

billinkc

and access to the children's children?

dustytrash

Yeah, and its childrens childrens children etc

I'll checkout CTE's, I don't think I've used them before

I can change the table structure if needed. The only important one is Category, categories I just used to handle the many to many

billinkc

Is this a reporting structure or a different type of hierarchy?

James

you can also join to tables multiple times

billinkc

C reports to B, B reports to A. B leaves the company and until a new butt in in the seat, C reports to A through a missing reporting level...

Or do you have Position Z reports to Position Y and Position Y reports to Position X with Person C in Position Z, B in Y and A in X

dustytrash

7:44 PM

@billinkc Sorry I'm not sure which type of hierachy.
Here's an example: A Miller, Heiniken are both beer, beer is alcohol, alcohol is liquid.
Another ex: A is B, B is C, B is also apart of D

billinkc

PeopleSoft and some other system take that approach. Can make it easier to keep your structure in tact as things move about (if that's a concern for the system)

PG support graph database?

And is restructuring your tables within scope?

dustytrash

Yes I can restructure

One category having multiple parents won't happen often.
The table won't change once set very often, possibly never major changes

I'm going to add a diagram and maybe more data to my post for a better description

James

6

Q: What's the best way to order a list of tables based on their foreign key constraints

I'm working on an etl task that takes tables from one schema (with no constraints) and inserts them into the same tables (plus constraints). I don't want to type out a bazillion insert statements, so I wrote some dynamic sql that looks like this: declare @table varchar(255), @stgtable varchar(2...

maybe the answer in this question will help, too, idk

dustytrash

8:07 PM

I added a diagram to my question and some more details

Postgre does not support graph database, but there is an extension that I could use for it

That question may help with ordering, which would be nice to have but currently just trying to get the data

Cade Roux

How much of this may just be the particular server resources being low? Because this is only happening on the automated test runs of the exact same data/schema/procs on SQL Server 2016 and not SQL Server 2012. It is a fairly large set of unions of the results of many table-valued functions. It just a got a little more complex than it was yesterday.

"The query processor ran out of internal resources and could not produce a query plan. This is a rare event and only expected for extremely complex queries or queries that reference a very large number of tables or partitions. Please simplify…

swasheck

8:47 PM

poor planning

Cade Roux

SQL 2016 is generally worse, has lower limits than 2012 or is there something with this instance?

I only test locally on 2012 so I don't use language features past that version and obviously my local 2012 instance is fine. And the 2012 instance used by Team City to install and test the database is fine. The 2016 might be different. I'll have to install and test against a local 2016 and see if it works, then it would be something up with that other 2016 instance.

Or I could refactor the code to simplify it. None of this code is in the product, this version is in code freeze, it's all the test harnesses that test runs that I am improving and expanding to test more things and.

This isn't even in the test runs themselves, it's the building of the test run results document, so it's just tons of nested and unioned ITVFs, many of them code-gened to cover all the categories of test cases.

swasheck

9:02 PM

so ... are you able to take one of the queries and try to get a query plan?

Paul White 9

10:37 PM

@CadeRoux Do you get that error with both cardinality models?

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells You make a persuasive case

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