saildart.org/LATEX.TEX[TEX,SYS]

@texdr.aft David showed me this some weeks ago: ftp.tug.org/historic/macros/latex-saildart/latex-0.90/latex.tex

@PhelypeOleinik Interesting. I see that the tilde was originally used as a letter instead of the at sign

@texdr.aft Yes, quite unusual. Interesting to look at :-)

@texdr.aft Hard to read, though, especially when the syntax highlighting thinks that \~ should be in a different color. At the time they probably didn't have syntax highlighting, so this wasn't that big of an issue...

@PhelypeOleinik if they had syntax highlighting for anything, they probably didn't for TeX

In part probably due to the fact that there were many more formats in use than there are today (if i understand the situation correctly)

@PhelypeOleinik -- If memory serves, not only was syntax highlighting not available, but the files were viewed on a green screen, at least in the earliest years.

@texdr.aft You mean TeX formats?

@PhelypeOleinik Yes

@barbarabeeton I only ever heard of those. But I take syntax highlighting to be something from the 90s, at the earliest...

statically syntactically analyzing an entire file seems like a lot of work for an editor of the time, which would be doing a lot already to be screen-oriented rather than line editing

@texdr.aft -- The editor used by the TeX project at Stanford was emacs, on a DECSystem 10 or 20, under SAIL or TOPS-20. It was built on Teco, not Lisp. Lisp came later, I believe when emacs was implemented on Unix.

@barbarabeeton en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… From the 80s, it seems. "to make it easier for beginners, especially children" :P

Tex editors are pretty cool in general

a fun exercise could be to add syntax highlighting to ed

@texdr.aft I don't think so (but, of course, don't take my word for it). I think TeX is more used nowadays than in it's early days. The thing is that some formats became famous (Plain, LaTeX, and ConTeXt, mainly) and newcomers (me, for one), don't bother making a format for themselves. However users from the early days probably still use their homemade formats, and even make new ones. However the presence of LaTeX obfuscates their existence, so it looks like there are less of them...

@PhelypeOleinik -- Interesting, thanks. I've never willingly used a "syntax correcting" editor. "Modern" (correcting) mail programs drive me batty. The one I was forced to use before I retired always "corrected" "TeXbook" to "textbook". I prefer to be responsible for my own mistakes.

@texdr.aft But probably in terms of syntax they are all quite similar to Plain, most of the time...

A text editor that could correctly highlight arbitrary TeX code would be extremely impressive and also impossible (without a lot of work)

@PhelypeOleinik -- Regarding similarity of plain and LaTeX, you might compare the parallel style/class files for TUGboat (tugboat and ltugboat, both in TeX Live and on CTAN).

@barbarabeeton Oh, that syntax :-) I was referring to colouring bits of code to make it easier to read. It is mostly useful: makes it easier to identify different things in the code. But sometimes they get lost and cause more harm than good...

@texdr.aft There's a bloke here who said he'll make one (@PauloCereda)

@PhelypeOleinik -- I did know what type of syntax you were referring to. And I'm not sure what such an editor would do with xii.tex; most likely nothing.

@PhelypeOleinik It's my understanding that one would effectively need to implement TeX's own syntactic analyzer to achieve that.

@PhelypeOleinik -- The thing I appreciate most is fence matching; I often find coloring intrusive.

@PhelypeOleinik Which is somewhat non-trivial

@barbarabeeton Most of them make a mess with anything beyond "ordinary" code. Fence matching is quite useful, though. Until, of course, you change catcodes :-)

@barbarabeeton @texdr.aft Bedtime now. Good night!

\def\weird#1.#2 also this #3.{whatever}

@PhelypeOleinik goodnight

I suppose that "also this" should be highlighted as well as "\weird"

So as the text editor scans the file it will have to build highlighting patterns from definitions on the fly and in a much more advanced way than e.g. highlighting user-defined functions in C

\def\worse#1\par done.{whatever} is worse

though a text editor that could correctly handle that would actually be really useful

it could also run at a usable speed if it could read .fmt files

@Mensch Are you doing a massive retagging?

@Mensch You need to be careful to do it in small batches over a number of days, otherwise you flood the front page with old questions and new questions don't get seen.

@DavidCarlisle I guess the new attachfile driver didn't make the way into the tds as it is not listed in the manifest.txt?

@texdr.aft Per our earlier discussion about version control. If you have questions, feel free to ask me. And I can give you more details about Mercurial if you are interested.

@UlrikeFischer sorry looks that way I am just on phone now can't Lok til later

@DavidCarlisle no problem. I will add the file to the manifest.

@UlrikeFischer The dangers of manifest files ;)

Is TeX Live using autotools for building, or something else?

It doesn't look like autotools to me, but I haven't really been paying attention.

@JosephWright the danger of uncoordinated tools ;-(. l3build did install the file.

@FaheemMitha "The entire TeX Live source tree is based on Automake"

tug.org/texlive/doc/tlbuild.html#Prerequisites

@FaheemMitha Also thank you

@UlrikeFischer Yeah, but it did what @DavidCarlisle asked :) He did say he just used the manifest file with quotes added but no other changes

@UlrikeFischer sorry about that, do you want me to rebuild?

@UlrikeFischer did it?, I couldn't get l3build to build all the doc last nought, I gave up will look one evening (issues with bib and toc files being in the right place at the right time, all looked fixable)

@DavidCarlisle I can't yet because of the wrong folder names (and if we need a new version number I'm not sure I know all places where to change it ;-)). But I could also try in the afternoon to get l3build to work.

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer So still using the bash script?

@DavidCarlisle no, not completly, I meant only the files in the tex-folder.

@DavidCarlisle Might need a custom typeset() function? I deliberately document the 'building blocks' there

@JosephWright for a release today, yes, I have the almost working l3build stuff in another branch

@DavidCarlisle Phew, you know what that means ...

@DavidCarlisle Martin Schröder announced on the german list that all his packages are now unmaintained ....

@UlrikeFischer Oh

@UlrikeFischer So we could hack them up, replace with kernel code!

@UlrikeFischer Could you forward?

@JosephWright good question. No idea. I think it is easier if I simply copy the text.

@UlrikeFischer Also cool

@JosephWright done. This pdftex-def package in the ctan catalog is curious. Does this really still exist?

@UlrikeFischer 'No'

@UlrikeFischer Did he tell CTAN?

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer We should pull github.com/ho-tex/pdftex-def I guess

@UlrikeFischer Did martin give any explanation?

@DavidCarlisle read your email. Interesting analysis. Will the suggested changed be added to amsmath? In either case I'll see of mathtools is messing with any of that (empheq might)

@JosephWright we should simply delete this imho.

@JosephWright I don't know, I can sent him a mail and ask.

@UlrikeFischer Yup

@daleif No.

@daleif we haven't ad time to really check the compatibility implications yet some can be done as fixes, some of it might have to be deferred to a future not-called-amsmath package, I'll keep you in the loop if we do anything.

@DavidCarlisle thanks, I'll add smallarray (egreg made an example at one point) to mathtools and release a new mathtools this week. This will include the crampedsubstack discussed earlier. As far as I could see the easiest method for making it was just to copy the original and modify it. The tools already in mathtools for crampness deals with macro arguments, not envs

One of our PHDs had a question: How exactly does say plainnat do its sorting? It seems to be only after the first author (perhaps first two) and then year. Is that correct? He has a few examples from his bibliography where this ends up being wrong.

@texdr.aft There is something called l3build. Which appears to be in Lua, for some reason.

@FaheemMitha That's different: extracting (La)TeX code, not going anywhere near making binaries

@JosephWright Oh

@FaheemMitha We (LaTeX team) need something to do all of our testing, and it turns out that it's also useful to integrate creation of releases. Unlike binary developers, we can't assume that make or whatever is available, but we can assume a TeX system. So it's (almost) all platform-netural Lua

@JosephWright I see. Because you know Lua will be available.

@FaheemMitha Exactly

'morning everyone!

@daleif to be honest without looking at the sources I have no idea.

@DavidCarlisle I'm looking at it right now. It seems a bit strange, perhaps I ought to see if the sorting was mentioned in the natbib manual. The PhD is currently looking into using biblatex instead. He's currently using chapterbib, which is not compatible with biblatex, but has its own alternative.

@PhelypeOleinik hi!

@PhelypeOleinik Enojy that? ;)

@PauloCereda Hello :-)

@JosephWright Quite nice :-) Sometimes the audio would cut off, but very briefly.

@JosephWright The funny thing is: my name is internationally complicated :D

@PhelypeOleinik Skype is still probably the best of the free services

@JosephWright Some friends use a "Discord" thing for gaming. They say it works well. Perhaps we could try...

@JosephWright ^^

@JosephWright discordapp.com

@JosephWright ^^ déja vu? :)

@JosephWright I never actually used it, so I can't tell. I've been off the gaming stuff for a while.

@PhelypeOleinik Can try it out

@PauloCereda Oh, did I just quote you unintentionally?

@PhelypeOleinik nah don't worry

@JosephWright oi

@PauloCereda :)

@PauloCereda @JosephWright likes my suggestion more :-)

@PhelypeOleinik bloody bastard :)

@PauloCereda, @PhelypeOleinik Perhaps we could arrange a test run?

@JosephWright Right now?

@JosephWright hmmm

@PhelypeOleinik No ... I need to eat

@JosephWright ooh ducks

@JosephWright Oh, right. Have a good duck lunch :-)

@PhelypeOleinik we ducks like chocolate. :)

@PauloCereda whataboutpets.com/ducks/can-ducks-eat-chocolate.html

@PauloCereda like this one? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/47862906#47862906

@UlrikeFischer ooh

@JosephWright Did you see my comment on your blog post?

@PauloCereda Nutella pizza?

@PhelypeOleinik ooh that's a good choice.

@PauloCereda Some Italian friends will disagree. I like not being italian in this situation :-)

@PhelypeOleinik I am half-Italian and fine with it. :)

@PauloCereda Massa?

@PhelypeOleinik Yes, and I am an Italian citizen as well. :)

@PauloCereda Oh, cool :D

@PhelypeOleinik :D

@barbarabeeton now way at all. The trailer has separated and will be written off. The car is 12 years old and most likely will be written off as well.

@FaheemMitha no?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen this is how it ended. Note that the trailer is in front of the car, not behind it.

@yo' -- Oh, dear! At least you're okay. Best of luck in getting back to normal.

@barbarabeeton it's basically just going to be costly and annoyingly paperworky.

@UlrikeFischer ctan upload done...

@DavidCarlisle my husband invented the uploader's evening prayer: "O Petra, have mercy upon us!"

@JosephWright Ok. I'll resend it then.

@UlrikeFischer ooh

@UlrikeFischer Petra is the female form of Peter, to whom Christ gave the keys of CTAN heaven. :)

@PauloCereda ;-)

@UlrikeFischer no chance

@egreg Thank you very very much for your edit. My level of the English language is very low :-(. I'm sorry.

@Mensch hi how are you? I hope very well for all.

Good afternoon to the new enter users from Sicily.

@Sebastiano I'm back from hospital, I'm fine but my friend is very ill ... Let's hope the best ...

@Mensch Oh crumbs

@Mensch oh my

@Mensch -- We all hope your friend is in good hands, and will recover with no bad aftereffects. Hospitals are no fun, but everybody there is on the patient's side. (From personal experience.)

@yo' Hmm, it doesn't seem to be in front of the car, but I assume you mean relative to the direction of travel when the accident happened (which is not evident from the pictures). When trailers start having a life of their own, that's the time to fear for yours!

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yep, that's what I mean

@barbarabeeton The hospital (or better that part of it) is specialised for hearth attacks, so he is in very good hands. They do what they can but now it depends if his body is strong enouph to get over that. At the moment he is breathing very hard and needs O2 ... Thank you and the others answering too!

@barbarabeeton Not true, at least in India.

Here, they are mostly just interested in the money. And they don't care how they get it. Including straight fraud.

(I realise this isn't on-topic at all.)

Are there any pdfTeX wizards who are willing to take a look at the formatting aspects of this question?

Contacting CTAN for validation:
  % Total    % Received % Xferd  Average Speed   Time    Time     Time  Current
                                 Dload  Upload   Total   Spent    Left  Speed
  0     0    0     0    0     0      0      0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:--     0
curl: (60) SSL certificate problem: self signed certificate in certificate chain
More details here: curl.haxx.se/docs/sslcerts.html

curl performs SSL certificate verification by default, using a "bundle"
 of Certificate Authority (CA) public keys (CA certs). If the default

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer ^^^ I knew something didn't work

@JosephWright huch. I never saw such a message. Where is it from?

@UlrikeFischer Command Prompt when I try l3build upload --dry-run

@UlrikeFischer Ah, I know: I have curl in GOW, probably need to ensure system one is used

@FaheemMitha That's okay; few things are on-topic here. It's all ducks and pineapple pizza (for or against).

@JosephWright it's probably the SSL version thingy.

@JosephWright The documentation about \ior_get:NN and \c_term_ior has become incorrect. As far as I can see, now \ior_get:NN only allows reading from stream numbered 0 to 15, while it used to accept any number.

@JosephWright I guess we want something like

\prg_set_conditional:Npnn \ior_if_eof:N #1 { p , T , F , TF }
  {
    \cs_if_exist:NTF #1
      {
        \int_compare:nTF { #1 = \c_term_ior }
         { \prg_return_false: }
         {
          \int_compare:nTF { -1 < #1 < \c_term_ior }
            {
              \if_eof:w #1
                \prg_return_true:
              \else:
                \prg_return_false:
              \fi:
            }
            { \prg_return_true: }
         }
      }
      { \prg_return_true: }
  }

@egreg Yes, that altered a while ago: I'll fix

@JosephWright With the code above there's no fancy prompt, but at least the function works as it should: the \c_term_ior stream is always open.

@egreg Perhaps one for the team list: from memory, I was not that keen on reading from a 'not file' in that way, as \ior_get:NN is supposed to be for files

@egreg I'll need to remind myself of what is said, and what got changed when

@JosephWright OK, the important thing is that the doc points to the right function. Something like: \c_term_ior is the input stream referring to the terminal, but it cannot be used with \ior_get:NN; rather use \ior_get_term:nN.

@egreg Like I say, first I should remind myself of what is what :)

@egreg I think the issue goes back to when we switched to having a pool of I/O streams: before that, it was easier to just default to the terminal

@JosephWright very odd, are you behind some kind of firewall

@DavidCarlisle No. That's from curl from GOW. If I move it out of the way, my system claims it can't find curl at all ...

Or rather, l3build can't

@JosephWright did you use a 64bit texlive?

@JosephWright do you have the windows update from last year that added curl?

@egreg I think I remember the issue. If you treat \c_term_ior as open, the whole business with allocating streams but not actually opening them means every stream appears 'open'

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle I do get curl from the system, but which curl.exe (which from GOW) can't find it ...

@UlrikeFischer Ah ... probably not

@UlrikeFischer There's a 64-bit one???

@JosephWright I got it from w32tex.org, the alternative is to install a 32 bit curl ...

@UlrikeFischer Like I say, I do have curl: curl --help works even with the GOW one disabled. But I'm not sure if it exists as a stand-alone curl.exe somewhere

@egreg With the allocated approach, we have \cs_new_protected:Npn \ior_new:N #1 { \cs_new_eq:NN #1 \c_term_ior }, so a stream is allocated but not open. Probably that means we should alter the docs

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle It's OK, as long as I've set stuff up right for others ...

@JosephWright the problem is that windows somehow hides curl if a 32bit lua tries to find a 64 curl (we had this discussion in january, also see tug.org/pipermail/tex-live/2018-August/042133.html)

@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes: I think it's a security thing

@UlrikeFischer I wonder why my GOW-installed curl fails: should be solvable

@egreg I'm pretty sure this is a doc update case (@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @PhelypeOleinik?)

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Could one of you check the uploadconfig changes are correct for e.g. l3backend (nice and short build time)

@JosephWright what should I test?

@UlrikeFischer That l3build upload --dry-run works :)

@UlrikeFischer Want to be sure I have the settings correct at least!

@JosephWright I guess I should install the newest l3build first ...

@UlrikeFischer Should be OK with the release one

@JosephWright in which branch of l3backend?

@UlrikeFischer Master

@JosephWright you could try adding -k stackoverflow.com/questions/28927051/curl-command-for-https-ssl

@JosephWright it is asking me a lot of questions (announcement, email, uploader ...) Is this expected?

@UlrikeFischer Yes: those are the things we don't save in the config, as they are 'at time of upload'

@JosephWright I put this stuff in files ;-). But if I answer everything I get CTAN validation successful.

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@JosephWright which curl version do you have?

@PauloCereda Er, not sure

@JosephWright curl --version. Unless it's Windows, in which case look for a popup window, I suppose.

@FaheemMitha curl 7.55.1 (Windows) libcurl/7.55.1 WinSSL

@JosephWright Yikes, Windows.

@FaheemMitha Yes

@FaheemMitha most people use windows

Is that Cygwin, that new Linux emulation layer, or native Windows?

@DavidCarlisle I'm well aware of that sad fact.

@JosephWright not too old, it shouldn't complain...

@FaheemMitha windows is a bit hostile as a development environment but as a user desktop interface it is perfectly serviceable and I don't see why you think it's sad that people use it.

@DavidCarlisle For one thing, it's proprietary.

Also, it's got terrible security defaults.

@FaheemMitha so? I give your TV isn't opensource.

@PauloCereda My TV doesn't run an operating system.

@FaheemMitha really? hah.

@FaheemMitha shrug, so is macos, and in practice so are most of the linuxes people use

@PauloCereda it probably runs linux?

I thought I'd post the thoughts of people who have spent much more time thinking about such things than me -> fsf.org/news/the-fsfs-statement-on-windows-10

@DavidCarlisle "in practice so are most of the linuxes people use" <- citation needed.

In any case, I use Debian.

@DavidCarlisle some of them run in house solutions, IIRC.

Oh, and Apple is worse than MS these days, I think.

I stay away from them.

@FaheemMitha Depends: for end users, it's mainly OK today. I think Debian users are probably atypical of the normal PC user ...

@DavidCarlisle Smart TVs have operating systems. I don't own a Smart TV. They're a bad idea.

I tried to install Debian once ...

@JosephWright ouch :)

Debian is perfectly easy to install. Hardware compatibility can be an issue.

And anyway, there are plenty of derivatives these days.

Like Ubuntu. But there are others too.

@FaheemMitha Er ... this was a while ago

Around 2000 it wasn't so easy. I remember I had a bit of a struggle with Potato.

Release 2.2, that was.

@FaheemMitha Yup, about then; during my PhD

@FaheemMitha I'd done SuSE several times, it was OK. Debian was basically impossible. I gave up.

Back then there was no auto-detection. You had to know what modules to install and specify them. A bit mad, that was.

@JosephWright It's no harder than anything else these days, provided you have reasonable hardware. It's still not too keen on hardware which only has proprietary support.

@JosephWright SuSE is still one the best distros out there. Sadly their YaST thing is annoying...

And in any case, Ubuntu is an alternative. It's basically Debian.

And Canonical doesn't care whether hardware (or software) is proprietary. They're all about the user experience.

@PauloCereda YaST was good when I tried it ... a while ago

@JosephWright Ah I had a bad time with it. :)

@FaheemMitha Yeah, I guess my view of Debian is fixed by my experience some time ago

@FaheemMitha To me, it's not: Debian to me is no GUI, straight to the CLI, do everything manually

@JosephWright Debian has had a GUI installer for years, if that's what you mean. And it has X like everything else. KDE, GNOME, the works.

@FaheemMitha My VM is Ubuntu, but as I've mentioned before, I have to have a Windows system one way or the other

@FaheemMitha It had X even back then, its just you had to install it yourself

It's (still) not exactly designed for beginners, but at least the install isn't an issue these days.

@FaheemMitha Seems like a cop-out: the whole point of Debian was I thought to be hard-core

@JosephWright And it has a list of defaults.

After all, that's why there were other distro

@JosephWright indeed.

@JosephWright Hard-core in what sense?

The problem with the free Unix-like systems come when things go wrong. Then you need to know how to fix them.

OTOH, unlike a proprietary OS, you actually have a fighting chance.

@FaheemMitha Well the lack of GUI was in ~2000 quite deliberate: you were expected to know what you were doing

Because the system isn't hiding stuff from you.

@JosephWright and I thought the whole point of Debian was to interpret GPL in such a way to make distributing TeXlive impossible.

@StrongBad :)

@JosephWright There were GUIs in 2000. I think there probably was even an option in the installer to install it.

@StrongBad LOL

@FaheemMitha Hmm, not when I tried it: I remember reading that it was a specific design choice

@StrongBad That seeems very unfair, considering Debian went to a lot of trouble over TeX.

@FaheemMitha Also to write Frank 1600 emails ;)

I realise the TeX community may not be particularly grateful they did so...

@JosephWright LOLOLOL

@JosephWright I don't recall that, but it was some ago.

@FaheemMitha Yeah, exactly: at the time I was mainly trying SuSE anyway, so it was something of a small-scale trial

Well, debian-legal, at any rate.

People have weird misconceptions about Debian. Then again, they have weird misconceptions about TeX. I make sporadic efforts to educate people about both.

@FaheemMitha Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed by all of the work, and in some ways I am tempted by a Linux system. But aspects of my day job make that tricky.

@FaheemMitha I don't really know what happened, but it seemed like a big mess over software that most people consider FOSS

You wouldn't believe some of the things people say about TeX.

@FaheemMitha red hat enterprise rather than fedora etc and even systems like debian that are open source it's not as if any users can change it if the Debian organisation doesn't want the change, so the difference is somewhat negligible in practice.

@DavidCarlisle I think a lot of people would disagree with that statement. Software freedom isn't negligible.

Of course, I realise most people don't care.

If you mean most users aren't going to go digging into their system and rebuilding everything, that's certainly true. But software freedom is about much more than that.

Anyway, time to go to sleep.

@FaheemMitha huh?

@DavidCarlisle And yes, people can change their systems. I do so all the time.

@DavidCarlisle License clarification. But you already know about that.

Though perhaps you don't see it that way.

@FaheemMitha it is also not negligible that some people have to make a living from writing software.

@FaheemMitha you don't count, none of us count. Real people don't compile stuff.

@DavidCarlisle Excuse me? I'm a real person. Definitely. (Pinches self.) Yup, real.

@FaheemMitha Night night

@FaheemMitha which had negligible effect on anything (and clarified that they only allowed tex on the system because they believe the Licence statement Knuth placed on tex to be unenforceable so ignorable, which seemed fairly underhand to me, they should accept that they accept the rename clause in the tex licence or they should have stuck with nroff.

@DavidCarlisle couldn't they just strip that part out and rename it something else like they did with firefox/ice weasel?

Can we reopen this so I can add an answer? tex.stackexchange.com/q/501998/2693

@StrongBad well that's the point, the whole discussion about the latex licence was on whether files could be changed without renaming which LPPL 1 prevented (it was explicitly modelled on the tex licence) when pushed to answer why they were happy to ship tex but so unhappy about LPPL it was basically that they thought that the LPPL was worded in a way that was enforcable but the wording in the tex files

@AlanMunn Done.

... which inconsistently said it was public domain and had the no changes without rename clause, was not enforceable

@DavidCarlisle I would have thought that the Debian devs would enjoy renaming all the files in texlive.

@TorbjørnT. Thanks!

@StrongBad they would have done, but (and contemplated doing so) but were alarmed to find that the filenames were exposed in user syntax ie if you wanted \documentclass{article} to work then you needed to keep article.cls or change latex to use a different filename mapping.

@DavidCarlisle good point. You really should have made xii.tex sensitive to the file name.

@StrongBad lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2002/09/msg00058.html

@DavidCarlisle Did you see @egreg's comments earlier?

@JosephWright er possibly not?

@DavidCarlisle WE say \c_term_ior can be used with \ior_get:NN or whatever, but I think now we can't

@DavidCarlisle (In German, which I can't read, sorry) -- that can't be from you, that must be an impostor ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Ich habe neue Fähigkeiten

@JosephWright of change \ior_get:NNF so you can?

@DavidCarlisle Well, it comes from having a pool: we need a marker for 'not yet used', and something that won't explode.

@JosephWright yes, I left some of the details to the reader....

@DavidCarlisle :)

@JosephWright is then \c_term_ior of any use for a user?

@UlrikeFischer That's what I was wondering

@JosephWright at a first glance it looks as if it would be enough it it were an internal number, but I'm not sure.

@JosephWright Yes, it's no longer useful except for internal checking. The documentation of \ior_get:NN should point to \ior_get_term:nN

@egreg Right, so you'd be happy with that?

@JosephWright Of course. And \ior_get_term:nN should go to stable.

@egreg OK, cool

@egreg OK, I'll sort it in the morning

@JosephWright I added a final comment to your answer for explaining the issue.

@egreg Cool thanks

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I just tested with the newest luatex: \openin0 makefile now finds makefile.

@UlrikeFischer does \openin zzz find zzz.tex (if zzz doesn't exist) ?

@DavidCarlisle yes. if both exists it (\read) finds zzz.tex (curiously I had a aaa.tex in my test folder ;-).

@UlrikeFischer I thought Hans was saying it wouldn't (or shouldn't) add .tex, but then the texlive luatex is using kpse isn't it?....

@DavidCarlisle yes, kpse is activated. I'm not quite sure what Hans means (and how to test without kpse.)

@DavidCarlisle If I add \directlua{texconfig.kpse_init=0} to the texfile then \openin makefile no longer works, but \openin {makefile} does.

@UlrikeFischer thanks

@DavidCarlisle no sorry, that was the wrong engine. With the new version \openin0 makefile works too.

@AlanMunn I disagree. The original question was asking for recognition of the style (better to ask this in acad.SE) provided by the example in the question body and the question body asked for the precise package to use and again what style it is. The question was only barely on topic, mentioning LaTeX, but OP didn't specify whether they could implement it in LaTeX would they need to do it themself. I agree the question in on topic now, but it wasn't in the original version.

you even stated yourself it was not sufficiently detailed to be meaningfully answerable

and now, for something completely different. I didn't flag this question, but if I had, would that have counted as a closing vote or is that something different? As far as i know, I don't have voting rights, yet.

for other casual readers, this is the question in question

@thymaro I think there's a big difference between off topic and unclear. Off topic basically tells a user to go away. It's true it was unclear, but the OP mentioned a few .bst files they'd tried which didn't match the style. So it was very clear what they wanted to do. And it turns out that the journal doesn't give much guidance beyond what was originally posted. So if you had suggested closing as unclear, maybe, but as off topic I really don't think so.

@thymaro No flagging is an entirely different thing. It tells the mods to look at the question, and should really only be used for spam or offensive questions. It's independent of your ability to close or not.

@AlanMunn cool, thx. then I don't have voting power. Good to know. On the other hand, when I click on "flag", I have a choice to flag as off-topic or as duplicate and a bunch of other things. Are you saying I shouldn't flag on tex.se unless it's spam or offensive? I will try to remember that. I guess it's handled differently from site to site.

@thymaro Then I'm not sure. What you're describing sounds more like voting to close than flagging, although there may be some overlap in the reasons. I don't really flag much (if ever.)

@AlanMunn that makes more sense now. thx for the explanation. of course, the hurdle i have to overcome to try to answer the question is a bit bigger because of my lack in recognition power of citation styles, so a question seems unclear much quicker to me than to you. :D

@AlanMunn does anybody? I sure don't. I have when I got the right to do so, but commenting seems easier and friendlier towards OP.

@AlanMunn oh I didn't realize the question had actually been closed for a time

@thymaro Yes, and I hadn't realized you hadn't actually done any voting, you were just the unfortunate instigator. :)

@AlanMunn Anstifter/Aufhetzer! Well, that's a strong term for a noob :D

@thymaro Just kidding of course. Maybe its meaning is stronger in German.

@thymaro Yes, I totally agree. Every so often we have people who pile on to close voting. We try to contain the hordes though when possible. :)

@AlanMunn nah, I think it could be used just like that

right, I should get back to my thesis and then get some sleep