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2:22 AM
I am thinking how can I draw the above in latex
can I please get some help in drawing this using Tikz or similar platforms?
2:47 AM
Hi does someone know the latex template for this cv: pgbovine.net/philip-guo-cv.pdf
1 hour later…
3:51 AM
@zed111 I suspect this is home grown. Many of us build a CV just using article and a few packages.
3 hours later…
6:56 AM
@zed111 Philip Guo presumably has the tex source, you could ask him
7:33 AM
@zed111 There are custom packages for writing CVs, I think. Though they're not necessary.
7:50 AM
@BAYMAX do you still need help
i'll help you , but you'll need a sketch that's like ~1000% better
8:29 AM
@JosephWright was travis failing already or did I break it? Failures don't appear to be in tools
@DavidCarlisle I think I know what's up. I'm part-way through building the dev release: once that's done I'll take a look. Perhaps 30 minutes.
@JosephWright I'm in a meeting all morning (from 10) so probably can't look much until lunchtime anyway
@DavidCarlisle OK.
@DavidCarlisle Ah, I see: you've branched from master not from develop. I'll tidy that up in a bit (delete xcite branch and recreate: we don't need to keep feature branches)
@DavidCarlisle looks like a log-difference because of the missing char change.
@JosephWright yes (well actually originally i committed to master by mistake (having generated xcite branch but not switched to it...) I thought branching off master would be the thing to do for regular updates (that might in theory need to go out before the next dev update?)
@UlrikeFischer blame @UlrikeFischer ...
8:42 AM
Jun 28 at 10:34, by David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer they will complain but they might complain less once you point out they were getting bad output before and didn't notice. Do you still get the missing character message in the log?
@DavidCarlisle Ah, right, yes if it's going out before the next big release then yes
@DavidCarlisle So it's a 'hotfix'?
@JosephWright not really that hot: it's feature creep requested by Frank, it could have been done any time since 1993
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, sounds more like dev to me then
@JosephWright but I didn't really want it to go out first in a dev update (as @egreg needs to make a matching change in the contrib xcite package) and so simpler just to do it in the main input tree
@JosephWright I think interaction with packages in contrib if we have different code in latex and latex-dev is going to be a recurring issue....
@DavidCarlisle Right, OK
@DavidCarlisle I'll work out why we are getting failures on master then: the issue is we've had a few set up changes that I've only done on dev. Will cherry-pick as needed
@DavidCarlisle Very very true, but latex-dev is for testing
@DavidCarlisle Could this change go into dev once I've done the release? Would then naturally appear in the next official release ...
8:50 AM
@JosephWright that assumes we won't do another dev release though, actually it can stay in a feature branch until we are ready for a master release so it doesn't really matter. I suppose at that time we can merge to dev then again to master if that is better than merging straight back to master
@JosephWright because no one updated the tlg there for luatex.
@UlrikeFischer Makes sense
@DavidCarlisle Yes, can keep it in a separate branch
@UlrikeFischer Yeah, I've not been merging stuff like that back to master: we will need to, but I was hoping at least for this first pass to do things just on dev
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Building latex-dev looks to be working: about to sort out upload
9:05 AM
@JosephWright but as the change in the tlg is required because of an external change in luaotfload (blame me ...), it must be done in all branches. I don't think that this can be avoided completly unless we pull everything that is used in tests into the latex core.
@tjt263 hello! Thank u! It's night here, can we discuss tmrw, will message here a good picture!
@UlrikeFischer Sure, that's quite true: I think ideally those changes should go into master first then we should merge across. The problem at present is we are still needing to do a first dev 'tidy up': I'm still wary of where we are with the fact I had to back master up quite a lot
> Canned Laughter Makes Jokes Seem Funnier, Study Finds
@JosephWright yes, this will need a bit learning. What about the plain search path problem?
9:21 AM
@UlrikeFischer Er, that's out of our hands isn't it: need to talk to Karl
@JosephWright that's what I meant. Someone should warn them, that there is a potential pitfall here.
10:08 AM
@UlrikeFischer impressed by my miktex knowledge? tex.stackexchange.com/questions/501067/…
@DavidCarlisle ;-).
10:25 AM
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer latex-dev on its way to CTAN
@JosephWright Petra will be so pleased
@DavidCarlisle Oh yes!
@DavidCarlisle All sent!
@DavidCarlisle Wait for the fun now: at least we have markers in README files
@JosephWright l3build upload or via the webform?
@DavidCarlisle yay
@JosephWright hm
10:41 AM
@DavidCarlisle Webform: new submissions
@PauloCereda CTAN like something in the upload that matches the version number ... odd that
@JosephWright I've been through that as well... :(
hello someone know how to write this in latex
ن reversed
we can't send a picture
@PolineSandra sorry I don't read Arabic, but that's U+0646 (noon) is the reversed form an existing arabic letter or do you just want to apply a graphic transformation to it like \reflectbox{ن } ?
10:58 AM
it give me an error
at end{equation}
@PolineSandra what gives an error, what was the exact error and how are you entering arabic, with pdftex, xetex or luatex?
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Now we wait for the complaints
@JosephWright there is now @PhelypeOleinik to get the blame ...
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @egreg, @PhelypeOleinik I sometimes wonder if we should set up a dedicated room here for LaTeX development ...
@UlrikeFischer Yay!
@UlrikeFischer One Brazilian down, one to go ...
@PauloCereda ^^^ ;)
11:05 AM
@JosephWright you mean @PhelypeOleinik
@UlrikeFischer What I said ;)
undefined control sequence.\bidiGscale@box... \fi\leavevmode\def\Gscale@y{#2}\se...end{equation}
@PolineSandra it is very hard to read code in chat as preserving line breaks is tricky (and if you lose the lines then tex error messages are hard to follow. if \bidiGscale@box. was the last word on the first line, that is the undefined command so presumably it's a problem with the bidi package (which you haven't mentioned so far...) but it would be best to make a real example and post as a question on the main site
@JosephWright if we don't discuss latex development here, it just leaves ducks and pizzas, and I'm not sure having a room just for that is worthwhile.
no all is in one line
@DavidCarlisle it didn't work because I put it under \tag because
11:24 AM
@DavidCarlisle Boris ....
@PolineSandra tex error messages are never all on one line
@JosephWright i was just about to say the same
@JosephWright working on it. :)
11:48 AM
@DavidCarlisle when I delete tag there is no error
@PolineSandra sorry you have not shown your input nor your error message nor said what tex system you are using, so I can't help. As I said please make a proper example and post as a question on the main site.
I see it and I write it
I will surch someone else
12:08 PM
@PolineSandra it would be easier for people to test if you provided a real document that generated the error rather than a fragment, leaving people to guess what packages you loaded, in what order. Presumably you have loaded amsmath for example as well as polyglossia (otherwise \tag is not defined, and loaded graphicx (otherwise \reflectbox is not defeined) ....
@JosephWright the UK bloke?
@DavidCarlisle quack?
@PauloCereda King Boris.
@PauloCereda dinner
@DavidCarlisle ouch
@DavidCarlisle oh no
12:49 PM
@PolineSandra is your real example more like



That gives the error
! Undefined control sequence.
\bidiGscale@box ...\fi \leavevmode \def \Gscale@x
                                                  {#1}\def \Gscale@y {#2}\se...
l.16 \end{equation}

@PolineSandra (note the multi-line error message) which means that Gscale@x is undefined.
1:13 PM
and what is the solutions?
@PolineSandra \protect\reflectbox as suggested by @egreg gets rid of the error then the )( needs to be sorted out
@PauloCereda do you have a mac available?
@UlrikeFischer Yes, locked and loaded.
@PauloCereda what does locked means?
@UlrikeFischer I meant "Ready, at your services". :)
Like a gun, locked and loaded, ready to fire at will (not Will, of course). :)
1:17 PM
@PauloCereda could you help @MarcelKrüger here github.com/u-fischer/luaotfload/issues/73?
@UlrikeFischer Sure thing!
@DavidCarlisle I think it might be sensible to force-push to remove those two commits to master: as we are now being careful about additons, we can likely afford to 'tidy up'
1:35 PM
@DavidCarlisle it works with \protect but the ن is not completly reversed
@JosephWright OK with me, do you want to do it (I'd have to check the syntax:-)
@DavidCarlisle Done: I've just backed up two commits and force-pushed. You'll just need git reset --hard origin/master for your master branch
1:58 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- Happy Hallowe'en.
2:09 PM
@barbarabeeton It could well be Boris Karloff. :)
@PauloCereda -- Well, we shall see.
@barbarabeeton your bloke says our bloke will be fine, so what is there to worry about?
@DavidCarlisle -- Sadly, we need to wait even longer to find out what will happen to us.
@DavidCarlisle ooh
2:25 PM
@JosephWright Petra is mean ;-)
@UlrikeFischer Got close to everything being in order: I'd noticed myself that I'd still got PR1 in the base files (I'd missed a script line)
2:48 PM
@UlrikeFischer oh no
3:12 PM
@UlrikeFischer I get a message telling that there are no glyphs in the subset...
3:39 PM
@PauloCereda good. That means that @MarcelKrüger can use you as guinea pig (or is this guinea duck?) if he wants to test a solution.
@UlrikeFischer quack :)
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Rebuilding for a second upload
@UlrikeFischer -- I don't know if there is such a creature as a guinea duck, but there are several species of guinea fowl, all (most?) very attractively spotted white on brown. (I have several cast off feathers on my hat, and would love to find more.)
@barbarabeeton ooh
4:18 PM
@PauloCereda Do you happen to have ttx installed? (It's part of fonttools)
@MarcelKrüger Let me check, hold on.
@MarcelKrüger I don't, but I can install it with brew.
@DavidCarlisle kotaku.com/…
@JosephWright ^^^^ it has started ...
@JosephWright and there is a typo: "it ac­comm­pa­nies la­tex-base-dev".
4:36 PM
@UlrikeFischer That will get sorted when I re-upload
@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle Re-uploaded ...
@PauloCereda Thanks. That is no longer't necessary, "bgvoisin" provided the necessary info
2 hours later…
6:16 PM
@DavidCarlisle Seen the query about epsfig?
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Now we have the dev stuff on CTAN and fluidly created using l3build, I guess we'll be doing this a lot ...
@JosephWright Cool!
I like how "fluidly" sounds. :)
6:54 PM
@JosephWright now that there are less expl3 updates it was time for a replacement ;-)
@UlrikeFischer :)
@JosephWright no, where
@DavidCarlisle Reply from CTAN on the graphics upload
@JosephWright ah, what's a c amongst friends...
@DavidCarlisle Congratulations (I guess) on having 8 out of 10 starred messages in the chat right now.
7:09 PM
@mickep we'll have to do something about that @AlanMunn and @PauloCereda invading my space.
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@DavidCarlisle Done.
@AlanMunn we might need more stars for David, so we can push ours to the end of the list. :)
@DavidCarlisle Hehe, working hard...
@mickep That's a reaction to the news about BJ.
7:18 PM
@egreg Oh deep joy!
@egreg Hehe, I was about to say something about trying to be like the leader with high frequency of nonsense per hour, but I should not.
@egreg I blame @UlrikeFischer for Brexit
@DavidCarlisle Blame the Brazilians, it's surely their fault.
@DavidCarlisle Now you have something more in common with the guys on the other side of the pond, you should be happy.
@DavidCarlisle Another one ...
@egreg Nah, the Brazilians are doing cheap imitation.
7:23 PM
Jun 23 '16 at 8:15, by David Carlisle
If we leave the EU today or if people get colour over a tabular rule, the same applies: It's not my fault
7:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle oh no ;-(
@UlrikeFischer apparently you wouldn't sell us your car, or something. I may not have followed all the details.
@DavidCarlisle we tried but you wouldn't take it - the wheel is on the wrong side ;-(
@UlrikeFischer Boris will soon persuade you to drive on the left, and fix all other items of disagreement
8:21 PM
@DavidCarlisle Boris will tell you that you're driving on the left, but in fact you're actually driving on the right, with all the expected consequences.
@PauloCereda Good afternoon from Brazil, guys! I'm starting to compile C ++, C and C # in arch linux, does anyone already have any experience or time optimization advice? I use vim editor to do the codes and the shell terminal to run the build.
@DavidCarlisle persuading only me could be a bit problematic if the rest still drives on the right.
8:41 PM
@tjt263 hope this is good enough to start with?
@DiegoBneiNoah Are you sure you meant to be in this room? It's (nominally) TeX here.
Sometimes ducks, cricket, or marmots. But rarely C++ optimization.
@marmot I hope you'll be back soon. A big hug.
@DavidCarlisle More LPPL fun :)
@JosephWright change them all to mit
@DavidCarlisle what is mit?
8:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle Sounds like a plan
@UlrikeFischer MIT license
@DavidCarlisle "do what you want but don't blame me"?
@UlrikeFischer yes, but more the point "do it via a licence that our lawyers have already read" instead of "via a long complicated rambling licence that our lawyers will charge a fortune to read"
@DavidCarlisle Thanks, I asked him but he doesn't seem to have the time to separate "latex template from cv". I was able to build a similar style using moderncv template. By any chance, do you know what is the font style he used?
@zed111 you have the pdf, so your pdf viewer or pdffonts utility will tell you which fonts are being used
@zed111 odd: given the pdf is public, why can't he give you the whole source, but that's his choice of course
9:04 PM
Is it possible to push the following question into Hot Meta questions? I think it is worth to get better remembered ...
Q: Voting on a question that you answer

cmhughesI've seen quite a few instances of folks going to the trouble of answering a question without up-voting the question itself. Surprisingly, the answer often continues to receive further up-votes, and the question still receives no up-votes. I suppose I am a little confused about this. If we expec...

@Mensch Which answer do you have in mind to be remembered? :)
@AlanMunn Your answer!
@Mensch It seems to be a minority view though. And I didn't consider "just do it for me" questions. But I still think it's a reasonable way to proceed most of the time.
@Mensch shrug, seems a non issue to me, I don't see why voting for the question and giving an answer are related at all
@AlanMunn Yes, I think that too!
9:15 PM
@Mensch I answer a question if I know the answer and I have some time available. I vote questions if they poke at areas that are not just stuff that's in the manual, eg accurate bug reports or interesting tex features that have not occurred to me before. I answer a lot, I don't vote much, and vote more for answers than questions
@DavidCarlisle If an question (and that depends not on the writing of the question, good, complete, incomplete) brings one to take time to write an answer it seems to be important enouph to be not only answered, but upvoted too. And it is a good example for beginners to get over that 15 point rep ...
@Mensch oh I vote people over 15, or vote individual questions to be positive if they seem to have undue downvotes, but that's a very small minority of posts
@Mensch I choose to reserve my upvotes for questions that I think are interesting to me. I answer questions if I know the answer and I think people would benefit from the answer, if I just upvoted every question it would render the voting activity even more pointless than it is anyway.
@Mensch I have posted 9808 answers and voted for 921 questions (several of which I didn't post an answer to)
@DavidCarlisle Well, I observe there is a low upvoting of questions, even if they got more than one answer ...Points may seemless or not, but bringing beginners to ask good questions is upvoting there questions to motivate them. Asking questions with MWE and explaining the problem, getting answers but no upvotes is demotivating ... and this happens more and more ...
@Mensch different people interact with the site in different ways. If someone asks a question, I would hope they are happier to get a good answer and no votes than get a votes and no answer.
@Mensch that's a curious view. When I ask a question I don't care about votes, I want an answer not some meaningless points.
9:26 PM
@UlrikeFischer me too. I have never got any votes for my questions:(
@DavidCarlisle and no answer either.
@UlrikeFischer people are so unhelpful
@DavidCarlisle Well, one reason for Christian to leave was the low voting behaviour (of new users). New users are more able to upvote if they got more than 15 rep. And was not asked in meta: vote often and early?
@DavidCarlisle yes they simply don't see how interesting your questions are.
@Mensch I can't speculate on people's reasons for leaving, he'd expressed some dissatisfaction with the site quite some time before he left. I use it mostly as a bug reporting mechanism (as people never report bugs through proper channels) and as a bit of light relief answering questions or chatting here, but people get busy or bored and leave the site, that isn't necessarily an indication of a problem.
9:41 PM
Jun 6 '18 at 15:36, by Alan Munn
@DavidCarlisle You're getting such a lot of mileage out of presupposition failure these days.
Apr 3 at 17:29, by Paulo Cereda
@AlanMunn you are mean
@Mensch I agree with @DavidCarlisle I don't think we should be concerned when a few individual users (even high rep users) leave. People do come and go; some people make their reasons for leaving semi-public, so we tend to remember them more, perhaps.
@DavidCarlisle Well, at last this dissatisfaction mentioned here without any reaction seems to be the culprit. It is okay, if you can not understand me and my thinking, but must that also be for other people here? I mean this absolutly serios and I do not want to make jokes about that. With all respect for you but I think without voting the site will not work ...
@Mensch If it's one thing this site doesn't have, it's a lack of votes problem. Seriously. We vote more than most other sites on both questions and answers.
@Mensch well I think the suggestion that people be encouraged to upvote a question if they answer it is completely wrong. Voting on the question if it has any meaning at all should be on the merits of the question.
9:46 PM
@Mensch Also, there are various reasons for the vote differential. See e.g. tex.meta.stackexchange.com/a/7758/2693
@Mensch the voting is not important at all. In the years prior to me being active here I was active on xsl-list the main help mechansim for XSLT 11 thousand posts it seems and that has no rep system, and before that I posted a similar amount to comp.text.tex which was the main tex help forum.
@DiegoBneiNoah Hi, this is a tricky question! :) You have the basics (editor + compiler), so it's a good start. :) Perhaps you could look for some IDE that has code completion and syntactic analysis (not that vim does not have these features, but it might require plugins), so you could save time and reduce error-prone code writing. :)
@AlanMunn One more reason to mention to have a deeper look into an answer/question. I do not upvote for an image, I upvote an answer for an good explanation (without or with image). But sometimes it is easier to explain with an image. Your linked image in that meta question is an example for me not to upvote, because the image is meaningless ...
@Mensch If you read the comments, this was not added by me, but as a joke by my "partner in crime" (at least when it comes to meta views) percusse, who's sadly not active much anymore.
@DavidCarlisle Well, perhaps for you as an experienced user, but please think also for beginners. They do not know this things and they need to earn some reps to be able to participate here (50 rep for commenting for example). So I think this site is based on a voting system and it is at last for beginners important to get some reps. Simply let us give them that rep points ...
@AlanMunn Yes I noticed that, also that he is not longer active here ...
9:57 PM
@Mensch there are thousands of users, enough people passing by that anyone who asks a couple of questions should get 50 rep total, encouraging people who answer to make pointless upvotes to achieve that seems very strange to me sorry.
@Mensch note the site could have been designed such that everyone had comment rights from the start, forcing a short delay is by design so it is not a problem that needs to be solved.
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I do not mean to upvote answers or questions which makes no sense. But in the moment I am wanting to write an answer the question seems to be worth to be upvoted as it is worth to get an answer. There are a lot of questions having an explaination of the issue, an more or less complete mwe and answers without upvotes. That is IMHO not correct.
@Mensch I disagree, but it doesn't matter, you can vote for the questions that you want to vote for and I vote for the ones I want to vote for. that's how democracy works, even if as we see in the UK today, the outcome of democratic voting isn't always what you would have chosen if you had absolute control...
@Mensch but I still do not see any reason to take posting or not posting an answer into account when voting for a question, I don't see anything in the site mechanics to suggest that is an intended criterion for voting.
@Mensch in particular I think comments like this are unhelpful:
Sorry, may I ask why you did not upvote the question you have answered to? Why is the question not worth to be updated? — Mensch 6 hours ago
@JosephWright That's great! :D
@JosephWright I've been almost completely off lately, but in 2 weeks or so I'll be back to normal(ish) to get some of the blames :-)
@PhelypeOleinik It's 2e: Frank/David/Chris ;)
@Sebastiano what happened to him
10:13 PM
@DavidCarlisle I agree with this. Commenting about not getting upvotes is not really a good idea. Commenting on why something got downvoted is sometimes appropriate.
@JosephWright And you, apparently ;-)
@JosephWright your days of claiming you don't touch 2e stuff are long gone:-)
@Mensch I answer questions where I'm actually quite tempted to downvote. And if I would ever consider to leave the site then when too many people are too obsessed with the voting system and not because not enough votes are cast around.
@DavidCarlisle No, I'm adding expl3 to 2e: if that breaks, blame me. But if Frank wants to reimplement \AtBeginDocument ...
@JosephWright It's a secret Shhh...
10:17 PM
@JosephWright and who's implementing the hooky code to re-implement ttbegindocument I wonder... also it's all in git and we can blame you and Will for that
@DavidCarlisle That's Will's fault, defo
i thought the motivation for asking questions lay in the prospect of receiving answers
@tjt263 I hope that it will be in perfect condition to answer so many beautiful questions.
@Sebastiano come again?
10:50 PM
@BAYMAX have you seen this texample.net/tikz/examples/gnuplot-basics
hmm no, i see it now@tjt263
perhaps I went to this site to download Tikz
@BAYMAX you didn't get tikz as part of your tex distribution?
I use overleaf
tex distribution?
@BAYMAX that presumably has tikz already, why download it?
hehe dont know, perhaps later i cam eto know overleaf is having that already
10:59 PM
@BAYMAX miktex or texlive (the way most users with a local tex rather than an online site like overleaf get tex)
@tjt263 As I wrote to you, I hope you'll answer it again as it is. I don't add anything else :-) I'm sorry.
@DavidCarlisle aah I see
@BAYMAX overleaf has TikZ and most popular packages
@tjt263 it's better to use the reply rather than @ ping, makes reading the log a lot easier
@Sebastiano sorry fella, I don't understand what you're trying to say.
do you know what happened to my buddy marmot?
11:10 PM
Yes tjt263,
@DavidCarlisle sorry, am i doing it wrong? i'm new to the chat rooms
I am trying to plot the figure
2 hours ago, by BAYMAX
user image
@BAYMAX i know, that's why i sent you the example
@DavidCarlisle like this?
yup but I am thinking of getting started
like how to draw the two curves on the left
@tjt263 use the reply option in the dropdown menu at the left or the arrow at the right, you see replies like this one have an arrow at the left and if you hover the comment you are replying to is linked
11:12 PM
@BAYMAX what's the function of the curve? talk math to me
@tjt263 yes:-)
oh that is the trick there
Hello everyone,

I think my question is not solid enough to put on the main site, so I would like to know what is wrong with this example to print all the glossary entries?
its not known
@tjt263 i used to draw using equations before
but what if we cannot find a equation to describe your hand drawn sketch
i just cannot use paint
I was thinking of free hand sketch which I can insert as a high resolution neat image
@DavidCarlisle ah, i see. i thought it was the same thing. hey, by the way, i saw earlier you said something about nobody voting your questions up. So i went to check it out, and you haven't asked a single question in over 8 years! what's up with that!?
11:16 PM
@tjt263 what would I ask? (anyway I have asked twice as many questions as egreg)
@DavidCarlisle well.. anything.. whatever you want to know?? or do you know it all already
@tjt263 I maintain latex and I answer questions here for fun. but I don't really use tex these days, so I don't have anything that I really need answering.
@BAYMAX you don't know the function!?how did you draw it? what are the actual plot points? you usually need some input data
@DavidCarlisle ah, why do you hang out here then?
that wasn't supposed to sound so rude haha
@tjt263 as I said above, it's useful if you maintain software to see what issues users have, and this chat is useful instant communication with other members of the team
@DavidCarlisle oh are there a few developers/maintainers, etc here
is it on github or something
11:29 PM
@tjt263 well the sources are on github these days but latex is a lot older than github (or the internet) I've been on the team since 1992 I think
@DavidCarlisle wow that's like.. almost as long as i've been alive. do you know Knuth personally?
@tjt263 to be true it has a bit technical math to it, in short it has not closed form expression, it is usually computed using coding, it has to do with manifold theory, it is just a rough sketch and i want to make this sketch clean, but seems like u need to have equations which mimic the curves in Tikz to draw,
@tjt263 no, I've met him at a couple of tex meetings but that's all.
@BAYMAX you don't need to use pgfplot just use a primitive tikz \draw to draw a curve through a sequence of points and fix up the control points by eye. Or simply draw it and include a picture, not everything has to be done with tikz
@BAYMAX well, anything you can draw by hand you can probably draw with tikz if you don't mind doing it manually. it probably won't be much fun. but if you have some math, show us. or start drawing it and show us when you get stuck
Thanks @tjt263 @DavidCarlisle, will think to have some function in find to describe them

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