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12:13 AM
@msh210 Thanks.
Everyone: What's your opinion on having a "provenance" tag?
already exists I think. In fact, you created it!
@DoubleAA Indeed. We seem to get a lot of that type of question so I thought it might be useful. But I'm double checking with the community for their thoughts
perhaps "provenance-origin-shoresh-makor-somethin-like-that"
since "provenance" is not the most common of words
For those still wondering: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/provenance
@DoubleAA - I was about to ask what that word meant. Thank you for linking to the Wiktionary!
12:43 AM
@HodofHod not makor, I don't think, as that's more "what written source supports this". origin sounds good
12:58 AM
@HodofHod It's easiest IMO to debate the value of a new tag if you present it with it's tag wiki excerpt.
(I know they are underused, but I think they are important statements of policy and definition about the tag.)
Q: Include events in weekly Newsletter

Adam MoshehI just got the weekly Mi.Yodeya email (sent out every Tuesday). Why isn't there a reminder for the weekly Parsha Chat event that is every Wednesday? It should be included in the email? Please upvote this proposal if you would also like it and other chat events to be included in the newsletter ema...

1:35 AM
Proposed excerpt (I'll work on the wiki soon): "Questions about the origins of Jewish practices. Questions on the origins of Jewish customs, songs, foods, games, etc., are all fair game for this tag."
^Just off the top of my head. Please do revise as you feel necessary.
ping @msh210 @DoubleAA ^^^
@msh210 Agreed
I thought about "..origins and history of Jewish practices." But I decided against it.
2:09 AM
@HodofHod Are all questions tagged also going to be tagged ?
It seems at first glance that yes, and I'm wary of new tags that are 100% subsumed under another tag.
נטעי גבריאל is on Hebrewbooks.org ... For anyone interested, the Bein ha-Metzarim time of year is coming up soon if you want to learn some minhagim.
2:26 AM
There would be quite a bit of overlap, but that's ok, I think.
I can think of several tags that could be almost entirely subsumed within the halacha or minhag tags.

Beta Q&A site for muslims, experts in Islam, and those interested in learning more about Islam.

Currently in private beta.

@IsaacMoses Awesome! Although, I am a little concerned for them.
@HodofHod Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how it develops.
Q: June 2012 Community Moderator Election RESULTS

Shog9All of this election madness is now at an end, your votes have been cast and counted and the three winners have their shiny new diamonds: Please give them a warm welcome, and do your best to be gentle as you introduce them to their new roles.

Q: 2012 Community Moderator Election Results

Shog9Well, Role-Playing Games' very first moderator election has come to an end. Our winners are: Please give them a warm welcome, and hearty thanks and congratulations for volunteering! Also, a sincere thank you to the rest of our Moderators Pro Tempore, who (along with mxyzplk and C. Ross) hel...

^^^ in other news, these two elections are done. I wouldn't be surprised if they come for us soon.
@IsaacMoses No!! /hides
2:42 AM
@DoubleAA 'aleichem Shalom!
@IsaacMoses (wrong room)
@IsaacMoses As a mod, can you see into the private beta?
@DoubleAA Same to you, achi
@DoubleAA Nah. I'm only a mod here.
@IsaacMoses Very well. Can you delete the other post then?
... had I committed to their proposal, I would now be part of the private beta, but I didn't.
@DoubleAA which?
@IsaacMoses chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/5029222#5029222 If you aren't going to respond there, then I don't want them to be all confused.
2:47 AM
@DoubleAA Ah. I do have cross-site mod privileges in chat. Deleted. You can't delete your own chat posts?
@IsaacMoses Only for X minutes.
@DoubleAA The reason I didn't respond there is that I felt weird about intruding into their new playground
@IsaacMoses I wasn't going to say anything off topic to Islam.
@DoubleAA fair enough, I guess
@IsaacMoses It's always exciting to see a yodeyan somewhere you don't expect, like as a comment deep in MSO.
2:51 AM
@DoubleAA Yeah, that's fun.
1 hour later…
4:12 AM
Interesting site: jewishvaluescenter.org
4:35 AM
What are we going to do about this question? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/17137/759 As it is now, it is incomprehensible to users under 10k, and, well, it must look pretty odd to them.
I suggest that we either need to edit it or delete it.
@DoubleAA The author seems uninterested in adapting it to work on the site. I'm in favor of deletion
@jake @HodofHod ^^^^ Thoughts?
@IsaacMoses Like I said, I'm fine either way.
@DoubleAA It seems to have already been judged too explicit to remain open. If the author doesn't change it after a specified amount of time, I say delete it.
@HodofHod @msh210?
@ShmuelBrin ^^
4:49 AM
@DoubleAA I just blocked that tag
@jake I generally don't go for specified amounts of time anymore. We should render a verdict baasher hu sham
@IsaacMoses Delete. BAM
@jake Any opposed?
@jake Yeyasher kochacha. Dibarta "bam"
@jake BAM. Done.
@jake I'm pretty sure you've invented a Mi Yodeya meme.
@IsaacMoses בשבתי בביתי.
@DoubleAA Can check that off my list now.
4:57 AM
Soon we're going to need our own of these meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/19478/the-many-memes-of-meta
@DoubleAA Let's try to be a tad less self-conscious about it for at least a little while, and let these yodeyan bams develop at least a little naturally.
@IsaacMoses The best memes are created by accident.
5:40 AM
@IsaacMoses Looks good as executed.
3 hours later…
9:00 AM
note to those in chat apparently i do get messages with @vram even if i'm not in the room. so pls address your comments to `` instead
8 hours later…
5:08 PM
@vram My/our appologies. The issue is now moot however as that user has now changed his name to:
5:31 PM
@MonicaCellio @user1277170 @ironman99 Welcome!
@DoubleAA Hello, and a welcome to the new folks!
BTW, before we get started, just wanted to mention I'll be away from Mi Yodeya for a couple weeks starting Monday -- going to Jerusalem to study.
(So won't be around for the next two parsha chats.)
@MonicaCellio That's probably the best reason I can imagine for being away from Mi Yodeya.
@NotesArt Welcome!
@DoubleAA Yeah, I don't feel any need to apologize. :-)
@DoubleAA thanks
@NotesArt BTW, you can reply to a message by clicking on the down-arrow to the left of it and choosing reply; you don't have to type the name by hand.
5:36 PM
@MonicaCellio nice..thanks
Begin parsha chat: Korach 5772
Does anybody want to open?
In the beginning of Chapter 17 we learn about the covering made for the alter. I'm wondering: did it cover all 5 exposed sides of the cube? Was the same covering brought into Israel and used in the Temple? It seems odd that we would cover the alter with anything.
Why didn't they use it for some other decorative (and thereby Temple-related) purpose?
@DoubleAA I wondered about that too. Was it a cover for travel only, or in place while used? Wouldn't that impede the function?
Do we know how big a fire-pan is? I'm wondering if we can work out how much area these could reasonably cover.
@MonicaCellio Hmm I hadn't thought of it as a travel-only cover.
Oh no! I have to leave for ~8 minutes. I will be back. Sorry :(
@DoubleAA I'm just guessing, and because adding a cover to the altar that was already built to spec for a particular purpose seems odd.
@NotesArt, are you here for the parsha chat or did you just happen to come in at this time?
5:58 PM
@ba, welcome!
And welcome back @DoubleAA!
@MonicaCellio Thanks. Sorry about that.
@DoubleAA It happens...
@MonicaCellio Let's try working backwards. How much would we need to cover the mizbeach?
IIRC it was 28x28x10 amot.
@DoubleAA It's 12x12 feet by how high?
@MonicaCellio Maybe I'm remembering the dimensions of the one in the mikdash as opposed to the mishkan.
If I'm right though, that means 1904 amot^2 of surface area excluding the ground side
6:02 PM
@DoubleAA 5 x 5 x 3 cubits (ex 27:1)
60 sq. cubits for the sides + 25 sq. c. for the top. How many fire-pans is that, I wonder? Is a fire-pan something you can hold in one hand, or bigger?
b a
Was the mizbach hazahav of a different size than the mizbeach hachitzon? If so, which was the cover used for?
@ba are you asking incense versus the main one? (sorry, don't know "hachitzon")
@MonicaCellio Ahh yes. I'm thinking of the mikdash. see mishna middot 3:1
b a
Chitzon is outside (used for korbans) and zahav is ketores, if I remember
@MonicaCellio chitzon is related to the word chutz meaning outside of (as in chutz la'aretz = diaspora)
6:05 PM
@ba No source, but when the text just says "mizbeach" without further qualifications, doesn't it mean the big one for the korbanot etc?
@DoubleAA thanks for the derivation! It always helps me when I can connect a new word to one I already know.
@MonicaCellio Glad to help. The big altar is called that because it was outside in the courtyard of the mishkan, while the incense one was inside the tent itself (and as such is sometimes called mizbeach hapenimi )
It seems odd that after giving us precise building instructions for the mishkan and all its furnishings, that God would then have us cover over part of it because of this rebellion. So I wonder what role the cover played and whether it was just for that generation.
@DoubleAA I think I hadn't realized that the latter was inside.
@MonicaCellio I had thought that too, but @ba makes a good point about how the rebellers had offered incense so maybe the cover was for that mizbeach.
I tend to get lost in the details of mishkan logistics. Did the levi'im have access to either altar? If this was basically a levite rebellion (I have another question queued up about that), maybe it's an "in your face" reminder?
@DoubleAA Oh, I see -- good point.
About that other question: we're told that Korach (a Levi) and three Reuvenits (Datan, Aviran, and On (who dropped out)) started this rebellion, but when Moshe addresses the group he often calls them "sons of Levi". Was this basically a Levite rebellion with a couple outsiders, or did it involve more of the tribes?
(I'm not really sure how to understand "princes of the congregation" when the number is more than 12.)
b a
Baal Haturim (I think) says they were the "sarei chamishim" (officers of 50)
6:14 PM
@MonicaCellio I'm meforshim-less at the moment, but IIRC correctly reuven's encampment was right next to kehat's. So when Korach (ben Yitzhar) ben Kehat started complaining he got some local reubanites involved with his cause.
IIRC they both camped due south of the Mishkan.
b a
Rashi to 16:1 says that
@ba That makes sense. It's a public leadership position, but not a major one.
@ba so it's plausible that you could get 250 leaders from just Levi and Reuven, then. That makes sense.
@DoubleAA a bit odd that the text uses nasi and not sar, isn't it? (Not disagreeing, just noticing.)
@MonicaCellio I'm not sure. We'd have to check other instances of the two words to see what they refer to. Off the top of my head I don't remember Sar being used anywhere actually except in Yitro's recommendation for Sar's of 10 50 100 etc.
I'm sure it's used somewhere else. I'm just not sure how noticable it is when that word isn't used.
@DoubleAA (My memory of) Yitro was what I was thinking of. If these are the same guys, why a different word? But I don't have a concordance here at work.
@DoubleAA Sar is used to describe Potiphar, but as for other Israelite uses I'm not sure. I think I've seen it in midrash, too.
6:20 PM
@MonicaCellio True. And the Baker and Wine-maker.
@DoubleAA just checked Yitro and we remembered correctly. (I always end these chats with a pile of new browser tabs. :-) )
@MonicaCellio BTW from before, we're still missing an important factor: the thickness of the cover.
@MonicaCellio Thanks. I do too :)
@DoubleAA true. How thin is an incense-pan to begin with, how thin can it be pounded out without failing, and how long/wide is it? All unknown to me.
I'm sort of envisioning a cover like that armor made out of small plates hinged together, hanging over the altar like a big skirt or something -- 250 individual pieces connected versus one big sheet.
@MonicaCellio I wonder what that shoresh (reish quf ayin) means exactly?
I don't think it's in Modern Hebrew. Or at least it's pretty obscure.
There's the word "reka' " which means background.
@DoubleAA Wait, isn't that the same shoresh as in b'reishit 1? Hmm.
6:28 PM
^^ yes rakia' means sky.
b a
It means covering (Radak in Shorashim says so)
But none of those are like: smithing or forging.
b a
Just like the sky is a cover, sort of (hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43656&st=&pgnum=364)
@DoubleAA or "firmament"; it holds the stars etc, like the pan holds incense? (which also glows?)
@ba Thanks! So Vayerak'um means "and he made them into a cover"?
(That's one of those phrases I wish we had a single word for in English :) )
6:30 PM
@DoubleAA looks like, yes
welcome @zaq!
So we still don't know what process Elazar used. Which means we don't really know what it looked like (chain mail vs one big sheet).
looks like time's up
End Parsha Chat: Korach 5772
@DoubleAA And whether it was a permanent cover, just for that generation, or just used some of the time and removed other times.
Thanks all for the chat!
but please continue chatting away!
b a
The pasuk calls it a "zikaron" (17:5)
@ba That does imply that it was for the long haul. Good point.
6:36 PM
@ba good catch. That verse also seems to imply that it was for the incense altar?
I'm going to drop out now. Thanks @MonicaCellio @ba
@DoubleAA I'm going to have to drop off too, unfortunately.
Does somebody know how to archive that chat like has been done for past ones?
7:05 PM
@MonicaCellio Done.
@MonicaCellio For future reference, just click on 'room' on the right, directly above where you see the icons of those in the chat room. Then click 'create a bookmark'.
4 hours later…
11:23 PM
@IsaacMoses Why wasn't this turned into a comment?
@BenjaminHarris Welcome!

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