Raiders of the Lost Downboat

Eliah Kagan

12:12 AM

@Natty tp

Natty

1:54 AM

[ Natty | Sentinel ] unity desktop interface broken after recent update of 16.04 By: Pedro 8.0;

Eliah Kagan

@Natty tp

18

Q: Do custom kernels constitute off-topicness?

$hexafraction$ Originally, this question was closed due to a mis-wording, and is now in the process of being reopened. Another user pointed out to me that they believe that a custom kernel makes a post off-topic (while the original post may have been mentioning a proxy configuration, that is beside the point). ...

18

Q: Can I ask about a problem with a non-Ubuntu kernel here?

I realise that it's perfectly on topic to ask how to install a non-Ubuntu kernel, but what about problems that are specific to non-Ubuntu kernels? Are they and should they be on topic? If not, why not? And if so, given that the kernel is so integral to the OS, and considering how answerable such...

discussion scope

Eliah Kagan

3:35 AM

Is A folder and a file with the same name in the same location a duplicate of Same folder and file name in same location? They're quite similar but does the new one needs its own answer to address what is going on with AWS S3 specifically?

Unfortunately it has a prominent comment that claims wrongly that Ubuntu could have more than one filesystem entry in the same place with the same name accessible at the same time, if only the filesystem type were one that allowed it. (!!) There's also an answer (by someone else) that is based on that comment, but they've already improved it and might be willing to edit it further.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL-only title, bad NS for domain in body, bad NS for domain in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +3 more: www.bluesupplement.com/slimbiotic/ by aleenatol on askubuntu.com

SmokeDetector

4:28 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL-only title, bad NS for domain in body, bad NS for domain in title, bad keyword in body, blacklisted website in body, +4 more: www.bluesupplement.com/slimbiotic/ by user818206 on askubuntu.com

karel

5:11 AM

OT macOS Sierra

Natty

6:41 AM

[ Natty | Sentinel ] networking Ubuntu 16.04 LTS Network Manager cannot add VPN - greyed out By: VPN 5.0;

Zanna

unclear

Zanna

7:02 AM

dupe of something in the comments?

karel

OT C++ programming

Natty

8:12 AM

[ Natty | Sentinel ] boot Cannot boot from USB disk with "not a COM32R image" error By: Ringo 5.5;

Zanna

9:08 AM

@Natty tp

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] themes How ubuntu theme can be changed? By: dsSTORM 4.0;

Zanna

@Natty tp

karel

@Natty tp

SmokeDetector

10:08 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL-only title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +1 more: mumybear.com/press-forskolin/ by cartpim on askubuntu.com

SmokeDetector

10:20 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL-only title, bad NS for domain in body, bad NS for domain in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +5 more: healthonlinereviews.com/salus-defense-structured-silver/ by isobelevans on askubuntu.com

Eliah Kagan

10:49 AM

We don't need more feedback on that but I'm just checking something...

@Natty tp

@karel Apparently you have to to Natty's message, even if it's the bot's most recent message in the room. Your feedback didn't register on that. (Nor did mine after the first message, but it does after the second.)

Zanna

11:15 AM

@EliahKagan it seems dupey to me... is there something interesting such an answer could say?

Eliah Kagan

Yeah, it could explain how AWS S3 does it. That's not per se about Ubuntu, unless AWS S3 is running Ubuntu, but the OP has the idea that there are some filesystems on some operating systems that let you have more than one thing at the same location with the same name and access them at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true (barring the versioning semantics in VMS where a file is identified by not just a name but also a version number) and that there are not any actually any OSes that allow this. I think an answer that managed to explain that well would be warranted, because core the OP's question is the belief that their inability to do so is related to something about Ubuntu.

Such an answer would itself be about Ubuntu--it would be explaining that Ubuntu is similar to other OSes. The top-voted answer on the older question states that, but it does not really explain it, and while it has my upvote, I don't think "almost everything is a file descriptor" supports this in the intended way. The OP of the newer question provided specific information about why they think this is, in general, possible, which could be addressed specifically.

Zanna

ah OK. So an awesomely illuminating additional answer is possible. In that case closing is definitely not a good idea

karel

@EliahKagan It turned out good for me anyway because the OP fixed his link only answer and that made it wrong for me if I tp'd it.

Zanna

but yeah is seems fundamental that two files can't have the exact same path

Eliah Kagan

@Zanna Yes. Not the same absolute path, anyway!

But even on OSes where a directory is not called a file, I am pretty sure this cannot be done.

Zanna

11:25 AM

I think I need to write a tag wiki for the encoding tag... but first I need to do some work-work haha

Eliah Kagan

@karel Natty interprets our feedback as being about whatever version of the post it saw (which we can inspect via the Sentinel link). It also is not set up, on our site, to ever cast any flags automatically. So it's not a problem to reply tp to a post that has since been edited into an answer, provided it really wasn't one when Natty caught it or when it was reported to Natty.

So like, my tp reply, for testing, was not a problem, and did not have the effect of telling Natty that the current version of the post is NAA or otherwise flaggable. It's not necessary, though -- as I understand it, unlike with Smokey, we don't need multiple users to give feedback to Natty unless there's disagreement.

Zanna

(naturally if anyone else feels like writing an encoding tag wiki, that will likely have a better result than me attempting to do so)

Zanna

11:56 AM

needs editing and answering, likely by one of the commenters I am too sleepy to do anything...

karel

12:32 PM

unclear

Zanna

1:16 PM

What should we do with this? OP's answer makes it seem no-repro

Zanna

1:30 PM

How do I flag plagiarised material? I custom flagged it... was that right?

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] firefox Use of relative path to a local file for bookmarks in Firefox By: Ilia Erasti Khubutia 5.5;

Eliah Kagan

1:47 PM

@Zanna Yes. I added an NAA flag and voted to delete it but mods can view your custom flag and make sure some acceptable outcome has occurred. (And a mod may need to delete the post; it has not yet been deleted.) They might also check the author's other posts on the site, if any.

@Natty tp

This question must be a duplicate of something... right?

Zanna

@EliahKagan thanks :)

@EliahKagan there was a close vote, but the proposed dupe was not helpful

the review

Eliah Kagan

Yeah that target question would be wrong for it. I mean, they should be using g++ instead of gcc. But they have neither installed currently.

Zanna

all the anonymous feedback there is negative (query is here)

Eliah Kagan

I'm coming around to the idea that we should close the question about having a file and folder in the same place as a duplicate because (a) there's another question that answers it, even though it doesn't address the specific example the OP is focused on and (b) it's attracted a lot of wrong statements very fast.

The most recent is the claim that you can't do it in Linux because Linux has directories, not folders.

Zanna

o.O

Eliah Kagan

2:00 PM

But I am still reluctant to cast a close vote. I don't think the target question would fully answer what the OP wants to know. That might be a clarity or breadth issue, but I think my increasing urge to close it may be motivated by my frustration with the totally wrong claims posted in the comments more than by levelheaded evaluation that they are asking the same thing and subject to the same answers.

Zanna

PSA: stop posting outlandish unsubstantiated claims in the comments

2

Eliah Kagan

@Zanna Yeah, it's pretty mind-boggling. The idea that people better not call directories folders in Unix-like operating systems and that doing so causes all kinds of problems comes up again and again (fortunately not constantly though -- I see this every year or so), but I have never seen anybody make a serious attempt to justify it. It's totally absurd. File browsers for Unix-like operating systems call them folders. There is no ambiguity here.

It's far, far more absurd than usual in this case, though, because there is not even any coherent misconception about what files and folders are that would lead to the conclusion that a folder could exist in a filesystem, have the same path as a file, but not be a directory... if only there were folders.

Zanna

what is this magical "folder" thing?

Eliah Kagan

In the sense that "folder" and "directory" do not mean the same thing (which is, in practice, not even very common), a folder is (a) a manifestation of a directory in a graphical file browser, in accordance with the "files and folders" metaphor, or (b) a logical collection of files displayed like a directory is displayed, that may or may not be a directory.

78

Q: Directory vs. Folder

Are both names synonyms or should one prefer one name over the other on different platforms?

filesystems

Zanna

irrelevantly (but I thought to look because I was thinking about how we should leave this question open even though it is begetting bizarre misinformation) this question that was undeleted and reopened did finally get a better answer from PerlDuck

Eliah Kagan

2:09 PM

@EliahKagan But the top voted answer is misleading, because the term "folder" was already well established when Windows started using it. Still, even if one were to just read that answer, it would be sufficient to dispel the view that a folder can be an entry in the filesystem that has the same full path as some other entry in the filesystem. A folder that is an entry in the filesystem is a directory.

Zanna

I don't know what that answer means by "containers in the shell namespace"

Eliah Kagan

It's a Windows thing. (The quoted blog post is about the meaning of "folder" in Windows.)

But the idea that "folder" is more general than "directory" is not at all specific to Windows (though I hasten to reiterate that "folder" and "directory" most often are used to mean the same thing, and that this is not actually an area of confusion in practical use).

That's PCManFM, the file browser in LXDE, running on my Lubuntu 16.04 LTS system. I am browsed to my "applications folder," which is an example of a folder that is not a directory. Many file browsers can present remote directories that are not actually mounted locally as non-directory folders in this sense.

Note also that, under Places, there is "Home Folder." This is a folder that is a directory. I have not customized PCManFM. It always calls that a folder. File browsers generally call directories folders. It is in no way wrong to do so.

Zanna

so (b) is a virtual folder... looks like a directory, but is possibly just a representation of a bunch of files that for some reason may be convenient to group together?

Eliah Kagan

Yeah, it's a view for browsing my menus.

Zanna

yes, quite... directory, folder, tomayto, tomahto

Eliah Kagan

2:18 PM

Browse files and folders on the GNOME help pages also talks about "folders." This terminology is as widespread on Unix-like systems today as on other systems.

Zanna

I see, so "folder" can have this extra meaning of representing files from different directories together (how is that done, I wonder, what does the file browser do?) which is of no help or relevance whatsoever to that question...

Eliah Kagan

Indeed, it is of absolutely no relevance to it, because under that distinction, a folder that exists as an entry in the filesystem is still unambiguously a directory. The whole point of considering folders to be more general than directories is to be able to talk about some things as folders that aren't entries in the filesystem at all.

So if it is in some location or has some filename -- both of which are essential elements of what the OP wants -- then it is simply a directory. Usually the use of folder does not introduce any ambiguity because the context almost always constrains the meaning if the distinction is relevant. This question is sort of a prototypical case of how there is no actual ambiguity.

Sorry about the wall of text about this. It really bugs me that people say, with no explanation whatsoever, that it is wrong for us to talk about folders in Ubuntu. (Fortunately this view remains marginal, but it is nonetheless, I think, influential.) To think that everybody who talks about folders on a GNU/Linux system is wrong is not merely to be severely mistaken on technical questions, it is also to deny that the meaning of words is in way influenced by how people actually use them.

So anyway, you can probably see why I've refrained from voting to close it as a duplicate. My focus is too much on my own frustration with the misinformation that has been posted; a VTC from me now would risk being, or at least appearing to be, an "Ugh! Shut it down!" vote, rather than a "This has been asked and answered already on our site" vote.

Although this new answer seems to miss some important elements of the question, I think it is reaching in the right direction. I still hope that an answer can be posted -- or perhaps that author will edit theirs -- that addresses what is going on with the behavior the OP has observed and how it is not actually implemented by having a kernel or filesystem that supports a regular file and a folder residing in the same directory and having the same name.

Zanna

2:36 PM

@EliahKagan ... to deny that the meaning of words is in no way influenced by how people use them? (no need to be sorry! TIL about this "virtual folder" thing)

Eliah Kagan

@EliahKagan *to deny that the meaning of words is in any way influenced by how people actually use them.

Zanna

what I wrote makes no sense... too sleepy to read a whole sentence in one go...

Eliah Kagan

Personally, I actually think the orthodox view that a folder is a directory or a virtual folder, and thus that the notion of a folder is more general than that of a file, is flawed. It disregards the instances were people use the term "directory" to refer to a presentation or logical collection of files that needn't be what's stored in a directory in a filesystem, such as in the phrase "virtual directory listing" from by a web server, and also in the functionality provided by many ftp servers.

Eliah Kagan

2:56 PM

So anyway, are there any sorts of improvements that could be usefully suggests on that new answer? Its author seems to think the OP's goal is to do something on AWS S3, when really their goal is to do something on Ubuntu that they have done, or think that they have done, on AWS S3.

Zanna

3:09 PM

I don't know... the problem with that answer is it doesn't explain how to do what it seems to be suggesting...

Eliah Kagan

3:19 PM

@Zanna Yes, I saw that.

Eliah Kagan

3:32 PM

@EliahKagan *that the notion of a folder is more general than that of a directory

Eliah Kagan

4:58 PM

Dupe

pomsky

@Zanna Thank you for this. I also thought it was unfair to penalise someone for posting an answer when they're apparently not aware of a reasonable dupe. It was probably not the right thing to do, but I upvoted the answer just to counter the downvote even though I didn't verify it myself.

guntbert

@pomsky +1

Zanna

@pomsky thanks :)

Eliah Kagan

5:14 PM

@Natty report askubuntu.com/a/1024877/22949

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] Link to Post Low Length; No Code Block; Low Rep; 2.0;

Eliah Kagan

@Natty report askubuntu.com/a/1024876/22949

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] Link to Post Low Length; No Code Block; Low Rep; 2.5;

[ Natty | Sentinel ] java Installing java 8:update-alternatives: error: alternative path /usr/lib/jvm/jdk1.8.0/bin/java doesn't exist By: Sajid2067 6.5;

Zanna

@Natty report askubuntu.com/a/649535/527764

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] Link to Post Contains ?; Low Rep; Self Answer; -1.0;

Eliah Kagan

5:20 PM

Dupe

No repro

@Natty fp

Is this question really no repro?

@Natty report askubuntu.com/a/1024968/22949

(^^^ related)

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] Link to Post Low Length; No Code Block; One Line only; Low Rep; Self Answer; Starts with Keyword; 1.0;

Eliah Kagan

@Natty report askubuntu.com/a/1024949/22949

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] Link to Post Contains ?; Low Length; No Code Block; Low Rep; 3.0;

Zanna

dupe (OP's answers seem to be confirming that the answers on the other question worked for them?)

Eliah Kagan

VTC'd

Zanna

5:33 PM

@EliahKagan it seems very repro in principle, but OP's answer is probably the reason for that conclusion... what happened?!

Perhaps that answer should be considered NAA...

Eliah Kagan

Dupe

@Zanna The OP's answer NAA? Yeah, I flagged it as such, voted to delete it in review, and reported it to Natty.

Zanna

voted to delete

Eliah Kagan

Unclear but maybe we can request specific information.

pomsky

6:41 PM

dupe

Eliah Kagan

VTC'd

Dupe

Zanna

VTC'd, but I removed the command-line tag first (didn't seem justified) so it needs more votes

interesting edit summary, given the username...

Eliah Kagan

6:58 PM

OT Mint

I don't think this edit really improves the post.

Any reason not to close this question as a duplicate of the general Installing Broadcom Wireless Drivers question? (They have BCM43142. We've closed other similar HP Envy questions as dupes of that one.)

Zanna

not that I can see...

Eliah Kagan

I expect us to get more questions like this one as time goes on, so here's a possibly cannable comment:

I recommend you ask about this [on the Snapcraft forum](forum.snapcraft.io/categories) or somewhere Linux Mint is supported, such as the [Linux Mint Forums](forums.linuxmint.com) or [unix.se]. As the [help/on-topic] says (explained further [here](meta.askubuntu.com/q/684) and [there](meta.askubuntu.com/q/5877)), we don't support Linux Mint on Ask Ubuntu because it's not Ubuntu or an [official derivative](ubuntu.com/download/flavours) thereof.
[We don't support questions about snap packages on non-Ubuntu distros.](meta.askubuntu.com/q/16672)

(I had to add a line break because chat has a character limit for messages that contain no line breaks.)

@Zanna VTC'd

Is unclaimed a useful tag?

Also... how many of the questions tagged globalmenu are about what the tag wiki excerpt says they should be about, and should we retag, or change the tag wiki, or what?

guntbert

7:20 PM

@EliahKagan not in my opinion (seeing the questions with this tag)

Zanna

@EliahKagan I was just thinking that

off-topic

Eliah Kagan

@Natty report askubuntu.com/a/755273/22949

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] Link to Post Low Length; No Code Block; One Line only; Low Rep; Self Answer; 0.0;

pomsky

dupe

Zanna

seems no repro

why is this question off topic?

Eliah Kagan

7:35 PM

I'd say it's not off-topic, and while I can imagine that it could be considered too broad, no one has claimed that, much less explained why it couldn't be answered here. I've reviewed it Leave Open. If it's closed I'll probably vote to reopen it.

Zanna

thanks, voted leave open

Eliah Kagan

This question is absolutely not off-topic and is quite unlikely to be a duplicate of the question it's duped to. I've voted to reopen it. (See my comment for details.)

Zanna

reopened

Eliah Kagan

7:52 PM

Thanks.

I hadn't noticed it was tagged command-line. (It's very appropriate that it was, though.) I've replaced my original comment with this one. Usually comments requesting information from an OP should go on a question, in this case I hope that comment's position as a reply to their half-attempt to give more information will be more effective.

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] boot Can't boot Linux Mint after Ubuntu 17.10 install, even though the Mint disk was removed during the install process By: Marvel 5.0;

Eliah Kagan

@Natty tp

Zanna

@EliahKagan yeah, fingers crossed they will give more info...

Eliah Kagan

8:38 PM

Hi @BhargavRao. Has Natty been switched from 88% accuracy to 80% in this room? I thought I saw some reports that were just in SEBotics, but I am not sure.

Bhargav Rao

Nopes, I've been a bit held up IRL. Wanted to tell you yesterday, but I forgot. :(

I've got a submission coming up tonight, so working on that. I'll do this tomorrow.

Eliah Kagan

No problem!

Zanna

8:53 PM

@BhargavRao all the best

Bhargav Rao

Thanks!

Natty

9:10 PM

[ Natty | Sentinel ] networking Ubuntu 16.04 LTS Network Manager cannot add VPN - greyed out By: Mark 5.0;

Natty

9:25 PM

[ Natty | Sentinel ] network-manager Configure VPN... is greyed out and I cannot edit my VPN settings By: Mark 5.0;

Eliah Kagan

9:53 PM

@Natty tp

Natty

10:36 PM

[ Natty | Sentinel ] thunderbird Migrating from kmail to thunderbird By: Jack Lagraula 5.0;

Eliah Kagan

@Natty tp

Eliah Kagan

10:59 PM

This edit attempts to "correct" the indentation in source code that is being quoted as that which was used to compile a specific existing program. This should be rejected, because the editor has not shown anything to suggest, nor even claimed, that the problem is that the source code is being reproduced incorrectly.

This edit does not seem justified. The editor could post a new question.

No improvement.

pomsky

kill it?

Eliah Kagan

Yeah, that doesn't seem to have any value, most likely was not actually intended as a serious question (mainly I say this because of the of the "always will with JOY" part), and the OP hasn't returned to improve it (or at all). I have cast my delete vote.

pomsky

@EliahKagan Yeah, probably just a pathetic attempt to trigger the AU community :-p

@EliahKagan I rejected all three

Natty

[ Natty | Sentinel ] 16.04 Slow wifi on Ubuntu 16.04 By: Chrs 4.5;

pomsky

11:17 PM

What to do with this kinda edit suggestions?

This user makes a lot of similar suggestions. This one change "url" to "title | website", but many times the suggestion is only to change "title" to "title | website".

For example: askubuntu.com/review/suggested-edits/826561 (first couple of links)

Eliah Kagan

11:43 PM

I've been taking it case-by-case with those but I guess it might be good to post on meta to see what people think. My view is that the URL parts are not very useful but they're okay if they both are not getting in the way (not too long) and seem to confer some kind of information about the source.

As for the titles, a correct title is usually better than just a URL. I would definitely reject edits that consist in significant part of changing "title" to "title | website" unless there's some specific reason to think that form is more helpful, which would rarely be the case.

@Natty tp

@pomsky Thanks.

This is specific. We allow software recommendation questions, and that one is neither too broad nor primarily opinion based. I've voted to leave open.

I think this question is related enough to software installation that it is not off-topic.

OT Bug (it was well asked though)

no repro

Transcript for

Raiders of the Lost Downboat