12:11 AM
@UlrikeFischer This font is “OK” (whatever that means). The range of supported glyphs is adequate, there is just no script and no Fraktur, yet. To sensibly typeset documents you at least need the regular and bold weights in design size text. If you have a lot of maths it might make sense to get the basic set which contains regular weight in sizes text, caption, and tiny and bold weight in size text.

12:25 AM
@UlrikeFischer You might also be interested in this answer of mine
9

About Optical Sizes You said that you do not get the difference between optical size and weight. It is very simple. With weight a typographer means the thickness of the strokes which make up a glyph. A glyph with thicker strokes has more weight than one with thin strokes. Common weights are ...

To see Minion Math in action you could have a look at my lecture notes on solid state physics which I typeset just for fun with Minion Math: http://www.henrimenke.com/skripte/ExPhys6-MN.pdf (the overfull boxes are deliberate because linebreaking was optimized for a different layout and font.
The original is http://www.henrimenke.com/skripte/ExPhys6.pdf)
@UlrikeFischer If you want to provide the font as part of your services to customers, I am open for collaboration.

1:09 AM
@yo' Yes, that's what I said (past participle with 'avoir', not of 'avoir') :)
@yo' True.

1 hour later…
2:12 AM
What is \ht? I'd love to use it as a command… redefining it is too catastrophic?

2:26 AM
@MarianoSuárez-Álvarez don't do this!!!!! It's a TeX primitive (height) used for specifying heights of things like boxes etc. Catastrophic is too mild a word. :)

2:39 AM
Yeah, that is what I feared :-)

5 hours later…
7:13 AM
@HenriMenke why do you think bold is needed? Only for boldmath? Or is there some other use?

7:28 AM
@UlrikeFischer some disciplines use bold more than others eg for vectors, although if you only need mathbf you can of course just use a matching text bold font, bold math symbols are rather rarer I think

7:40 AM
@DavidCarlisle Yes but such bold symbols should be already in the regular math font. I don't think that I have from any math font a bold version amd questions about it are quite rare so I don't quite see why it should be needed badly. Apart from the occasional math in a section title where would you use it?

@UlrikeFischer ther are very few bold symbols in the unicode math blocks apart from the alphabetic blocks? If you need a bold integral or summation or whatever you need a bold math font don't you?
@UlrikeFischer I've seen papers with people using different partial orders and use every kind of less-than they can find, and generally category theorists are fond of using different font for morphisms in every category, basically the people who run out of math \fam in classic tex:-)

@DavidCarlisle It isn't the case here, but beside this: How would you use single symbols from a bold open type math font in a \mathnormal context? Imho a bold math font is only meant for the overall switch to \mathbold.

@UlrikeFischer yes I was going to say that I suspect that the way bold is structured in unicode probably means that such use, which was already rare gets even rarer. If you do have a full unicode math font and a full bold version of the same then \bm could work as in classic tex switching to the bold while preserving the math class, or you could make all symbols mathvar so \mathbf would switch to the math \fam and all symbols would go bold, but in practice this doesn't happen.

@AlanMunn sorry, I must have been really uncareful reader and thinker last night :-)

@UlrikeFischer I suspect that you do not believe the OP :-)

7:54 AM
@DavidCarlisle Ah. Now I understand. I had completly forgotten the \bm angle ;-). If someone had a bold math open type font would it be easy to adapt bm to switch locally?

@UlrikeFischer yes (I think:-)

@DavidCarlisle I feel a bit uneasy when a package author says about his package: "yes (I think:-)"

@yo' do you prefer:
24 hours ago, by David Carlisle
@CarLaTeX don't use my packages

@DavidCarlisle Should be not so difficult to test with two different math fonts and it would show imho that a bold math font could be needed.

@DavidCarlisle that one is old, this one is a new threat I wasn't aware of :-)

8:00 AM
@UlrikeFischer well it would work but I can't quite recall where the public version got to tracking luatex's entertaining way of reporting mathchar numbers as Umathchar triples and/or Umathcharum big numbers.
@UlrikeFischer at one point it worked then there were a series of luatex releases where it broke I think it is working again now but there aren't many bold fonts and for most people unicode-math's \symbf covers what they need so i haven't looked recently

1 hour later…
9:25 AM
@cfr: you got email.

9:52 AM
@UlrikeFischer If your math is so simple that you don't even need a bold math font, you can probably get away with using the text font for math. For the symbols you could use a font with comparable weight and shape, like Libertinus Math.

@HenriMenke Quack!
Hey Henri. :)

@PauloCereda Hi Paulo!

@HenriMenke don't mention fonts with math support because the university almost made me faint. :)

@PauloCereda “Please use Times New Roman at 12pt and a linespacing of one and a half”
@PauloCereda There were also such regulations at my uni and I ignored all of them. Nobody ever complained.

@HenriMenke Oh I was prepared for that, since it's ABNT. :) And the most amusing thing is that they do not have the concept of serif/sans serif fonts, only specific font names. :)
@HenriMenke It was way more terrifying: I almost was forced to typeset the entire thesis (with lots of maths) with a sans serif font.
@HenriMenke I had no choice, the document is evaluated beforehand. Thankfully I mitigated some effects of ABNT by investing on good typography. :)

9:57 AM
@PauloCereda “Please submit your thesis in .doc format”

@HenriMenke You know how to scare me. :)

@HenriMenke Yes that's the alternative. But for what do you need a bold math font? And how do you use it? \bm doesn't work so easily ...

@UlrikeFischer Either \mathbfit or \symbf.

@HenriMenke ? But you don't need a dedicated font for this. \symbf should point to the relevant unicode range in the regular font.

@HenriMenke but neither of those requires a bold font

10:11 AM
\documentclass{article}
\pagestyle{empty}

\usepackage{amsmath}
\usepackage{amsthm}
\newtheorem{theorem}{Theorem}

\usepackage{unicode-math}
\setmainfont{Minion Pro}
\setmathfont{Libertinus Math}
\setmathfont[range={up}]{Minion Pro}
\setmathfont[range={it}]{Minion Pro It}
\setmathfont[range={bfup}]{Minion Pro Bold}
\setmathfont[range={bfit}]{Minion Pro BoldIt}
\setmathfont[range={}]{Libertinus Math}
\setmathrm{Minion Pro}

\begin{document}

\begin{theorem}[Residue theorem]
Let $f$ be analytic in the region $G$ except for the isolated
@UlrikeFischer If you only ever need bold letters you could get away with the single Minion Math Regular.

10:30 AM
@HenriMenke ah so it's not an opentype math font?

@HenriMenke The placement of the tilde accent on the X is rather … off-center.

@DavidCarlisle Minion Math ≠ Minion Pro
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I'm just showing that you can try to get away with using the text font.

Ah, okay. For some value of “get away with”, I suppose. Sorry if I missed the context.

@HenriMenke yes so I see, I wasn't following the full thread but I thought that you were saying that you need a full bold font (so that for example you could get bold summations and integrals not just the bold letters in the unicode math alphabet block)

^^^ This is the result with Minion Math.
@DavidCarlisle You only need the bold font if you want bold everything.
@UlrikeFischer I quickly generated the unimath-symbols for Minion Math Regular, so you can get an overview of what is available: transfer.sh/IfWQA/unimath-symbols.pdf

10:54 AM
@HenriMenke Not bad at all. But it should be \max\{\,\lvert f(z)\rvert:z\in G^{-}\,\} Here the thin space is almost mandatory.

@HenriMenke that's what I was discussing with @UlrikeFischer, in some areas you use bold for individual symbols more than others, but hopefully the Unicode bold ranges cover most of that, but I have seen people use \bm{<} etc to get distinguished orderings

@HenriMenke Thanks, that's was what I wanted to know. And also thanks for the libertinus math code, that's a good fallback.

11:18 AM
In other news: Langlands gets the Abel prize.
It's on Wikepedia, so it must be true. (I edited it myself.)
s/Wike/Wiki/

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Wikipedia is a trusted source [citation needed].
3

12:06 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Oh, Langlands. Thanks for information. By the way, it is also here

@mickep I know; I cited it on the wikipedia page after all.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Oh, I see.

@PauloCereda You could cite Wikipedia for that.

12:21 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen :)

12:52 PM
Hey

Aloha

Is it acceptable to ask a quick question in here

@Magisch Yes, if it's short and doesn't require too much code for the explanation.

@Magisch Ask away, but be prepared to be told that the question should go on the main site.

We could say no and keep procrastinating. :)

12:56 PM
I'm looking for a way to create signable pdf forms with latex

@Magisch: just kidding, fire at will. :)

I've tried eforms but these are only signable with adobe acrobat

@Magisch I think not all readers cover some features. :(

Ideally there'd be a package to make PDF forms that can be signed from various softwares such as foxit reader et al
I know they offer a way to create signable form fields in foxit phantom which can be signed by both foxit and adobe acrobat

@PauloCereda Or say yes and get new stuff to procrastinate on :)

12:59 PM
@Skillmon ooh I like this idea
Mr. rabbit gave a nice idea

@PauloCereda how is your thesis?

@Skillmon oh no
/quacks in despair

I have the unfortunate (dis)pleasure of being the guy who makes the latex templates in my company

\begin{thesis}
\duck\Thesis
\end{thesis}

@Magisch Surely the disappointment is not because of TeX, is it?
@marmot ooh let me try that

1:02 PM
@PauloCereda I'm sorry, I didn't want to torment you.

@PauloCereda A php function is evoked to use a custom replace and parameter system to generate compilable tex code out of data from the database

@Skillmon no worries, @DavidCarlisle is mean. :)
@Magisch Oh I see!

@PauloCereda I guess the main challenge will be to write the \Thesis macro. But this is how it is, the problem with a thesis is the thesis.

@PauloCereda You could as well write my story about a little underduckling who tries to help his smart but sadly blind duck. At present duckuments has only 4 paragraphs. That's no competition for lipsum's 350.

28

So, last week I posted a challenge to play Duck, Duck, Goose. This lead to a number of Minnesotans commenting about their regional 'Gray duck' variation. So here's the rules: Using this list of colours: Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo Violet Gray Write a program to follow these rules: ...

1:05 PM
so the template syntax looks a little like this %%dbfieldname%pre=beforetext%post=aftertext%ev=defaultvalueincaseempty/%%
so it breaks any form of syntax highlighting

@egreg OH MY I HAVE THAT EXAMPLE IN MY THESIS

but this stack has been incredibly helpful so far tbh
TeX itself is a godsend compared to trying to parse libreoffice xml templates with a similar system

Jun 29 '17 at 16:15, by Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)

1:25 PM
@Skillmon kantlipsum has 164. And also indexes duck, if the option for doing indices is turned on.

though the longtable package is incredibly annoying

@Magisch @DavidCarlisle LOL

@PauloCereda the makeindex rule of arara just gave me a heavy shock. I wanted to get the index of an adx-index and it mixed the idx-entries into it ...

@UlrikeFischer err not my fault? :)
I can fix it

@PauloCereda me too ;-) But it was so unexpected -- and I nearly overlooked it. I mean who ever actually checks the index ;-)?

1:34 PM
@UlrikeFischer :) Version 3.0?

@PauloCereda Sure. There is not newer ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Ouch, that hurts.

@Magisch oi

@UlrikeFischer: do you have a MWE? I need help...
@DavidCarlisle LOL

@PauloCereda for what?

1:39 PM
@PauloCereda have you finished arara 4 yet?

@UlrikeFischer for the index thingy

@DavidCarlisle hm?

@Magisch the package is lovely it is the users that are annoying, I am sure you meant to say.

@DavidCarlisle A very specific quirk in that there is no option I could find to autofill a column to the remainder of the \textwidth was annoying me for over a day
I had to settle by defining the last column as p{\textwidth - #sumofallpreviouscolumns - #numberofallcolumns*4.2mm}

@egreg indices are not part of duckuments as of now.

1:42 PM
Nobody else in my company knows a lick of tex, so I was drawing a complete blank

@egreg provided a pdfTeX answer with 231 bytes: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/159706/77083
2

@Magisch ltablex or ltxtable packages

@DavidCarlisle Have to use longtable for all tables
Not allowed to add extra packages myself

@Magisch they both are longtable (really)

@Magisch speak with your advisor. That sounds stupid.

1:44 PM
@Magisch as I said, annoyances come from users, not the software:-)

@Skillmon I'm not an academic
I'm a software developer maintaining ERP software

@Magisch sorry, forgot that for a second.

@PauloCereda The call looks basically like this % arara: makeindex: {options: "-o test.and test.adx"} (can one use @{getBasename(file)} here?) and this calls then makeindex -o test.and test.adx test.idx and so loads both source files.

@DavidCarlisle Are you a fan of the package?
It is nice for how the tables transition nicely across pages and display the header every time

@UlrikeFischer Ah hold on, I think I know what happens.
@Magisch he's the author

1:47 PM
@PauloCereda oh crap
walked right into that didn't I D:

@PauloCereda How can I define a variable in a rule for an extension and then use it in the call?

though to my colleagues latex looks like so much black magic

@Magisch doesn't it look like that to all of us? \expandafter\expandafter\expandafter\expandafter\expandafter\futurelet
And the infamous error messages like:
! LaTeX Error: Missing \begin{document}.

See the LaTeX manual or LaTeX Companion for explanation.
Type  H <return>  for immediate help.
...

l.6 \begin{document}

2:03 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- it's quite amazing. i'm not a mathematician, but in earlier assignments for the math society i've gotten to meet such a lot of stellar mathematicians, and keep reading about them when they win prizes. langlands was one such. thanks for the news.

@Magisch I hate it:-)
2

@PauloCereda -- oh, yes! time to consider stopping procrastination.

@barbarabeeton @PauloCereda consider it, mark the words. actually stopping it is something different.

Someone here who wants to write that nasty high-frequency sensors exam for me?

@UlrikeFischer -- i guess i'm weird. when i start reading a (nonfiction) book, i often scan the index before reading much of the prose beyond the introduction. but of course, that's after it's published, so it's too late for the author to do anything.

2:17 PM
I am completely blown away by tex4ht.

2:29 PM
@PauloCereda I now wrote this rule which does want I want. One could perhaps improve it with some tests but I don't have the time now.
!config
# MakeIndex rule for arara
# For indexstyle with other extensions
# author: Ulrike Fischer
# requires arara 3.0+
identifier: makeindexext
name: MakeIndexext
command: <arara> makeindex @{german} @{style} @{log} @{out} @{input}
arguments:
- identifier: style
flag: <arara> -s @{parameters.style}
- identifier: german
flag: <arara> @{isTrue(parameters.german,"-g")}
- identifier: options
flag: <arara> @{parameters.options}
- identifier: log
flag: <arara> -t @{getBasename(file)}.@{parameters.log}

Is there any method to disable these warnings:
pdfTeX warning (dest): name{equation.18.4.9} has been referenced but does not e
xist, replaced by a fixed one
I'm working on a multi file doc with \includeonly, these are presumable to targets outside the currently shown file(s), so a bit annoying in the log
-- add found an answer from egreg: nope

2:50 PM
@daleif you could modify includeonly so that labels set in non-included files were marked in some way then modify \ref to use the non linking \ref* form for any such labels (but ignoring the warning is easier)

@skillmon based on your code, only 60 bytes more for real ducks
\documentclass{article}\usepackage{tikzducks}\begin{document}\newcount\b\let\c\def\c\0{red}\c\1{orange}\c\2{yellow}\c\3{green}\c\4{blue}\c\5{cyan!55!magenta}\c\6{violet}\c\7{gray}\loop\b=\pdfuniformdeviate8\tikz[scale=0.1]{\duck[body=\csname\the\b\endcsname]}\ifnum\b<7\repeat\end{document}
4

@DavidCarlisle the annoying bit is that if you are fixing stuff from further up the log (I use latexmk -pvc) then you have to scroll pass that list of dest warnings and it can sometimes be very long. Good part: my experiments from last summer still works and thus I can get my reimplementation of fancyref's \Fref to work with bookmarks....

@UlrikeFischer Sorry for the delay, Urlike. I was fixing some bibliographic things around here. I will port this syntax to the newer one (featured in version 4). I suspect the problem was in the options scheme. I will do a lot of tests later on.

@PauloCereda no hurry it works okay for me now. But the rule should be improved -- they are people around with more than one index (and which don't use imakeidx ...). Btw: the main problem is naturally that makeindex accepts the syntax makeindex file.adx file2.bdx file3.idx and then use all three files as input.

3:05 PM
@daleif actually an easier solution would be to change include so when it is inputting an aux file for a non-included file it locally defined \newlabel so that it makes a hyperref anchor at that point, then all such trailing links will jump to the point in the main doc where the section has been skipped

@PauloCereda but while we are on it: it would be good if one could choose if synctex=1 or syntex=-1 is used.

@UlrikeFischer for engines?

@PauloCereda yes. To long story to explain, but there are cases when I want to choose if I get a synctex or a synctex.gz file.

@UlrikeFischer I think there's an option already... let me check...

@PauloCereda There is an option to add synctex, but it hard coded uses --synctex=1

3:10 PM
@UlrikeFischer hmm it's either 1 or 0

@PauloCereda Oi texdoc synctex … I had no idea!

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{invoice}
\usepackage{polyglossia}
\begin{document}
\end{document}
@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle @egreg Is that one known yet? Don't want to dig deeper right now.
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.18 (TeX Live 2017) (preloaded format=pdflatex)
restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./elassusL3stuff.tex
LaTeX2e <2017-04-15>
Babel <3.18> and hyphenation patterns for 84 language(s) loaded.
(/usr/local/texlive/2017/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2014/09/29 v1.4h Standard LaTeX document class
(/usr/local/texlive/2017/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/size10.clo))
(/usr/local/texlive/2017/texmf-dist/tex/latex/invoice/invoice.sty

@Johannes_B I have a feeling it's come up before

@DavidCarlisle Ok, good to know.

3

This is an error in the way invoice.sty accesses fp it has \input{fp} If you edit a local copy to say \RequirePackage{fp} then it works (my local copy was already edited, which probably means this question is a duplicate and i was answering before...)

@Johannes_B or Joseph's answer from 2012...
16

This is a bug, and had nothing to do with graphicx per se. Inside the invoice package you find \input{fp} and inside fp.tex you find \def\NeedsTeXFormat#1{} \def\ProvidesPackage#1[#2]{} \def\DeclareOption#1#2{} \let\ProcessOptions\relax Both of these are wrong: input should use the fp LaTeX...

3:26 PM
@DavidCarlisle hmm, that would work. I'll take a look at this tomorrow

@DavidCarlisle Oh wow. This is quite old.
Reminds me of the guy referencing Duden to update isodate.

@PauloCereda Yes that was what I meant. But an option for value -1 is missing.

@UlrikeFischer got it!

@PauloCereda There are even more values possible. But maybe they are never used?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I can change it from a boolean value to an integer range.

3:29 PM
@PauloCereda -15…15 should do it

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yep. :)

@JosephWright unicode 11...
There has been a very significant change to casing behavior for the Georgian script. A new set of Mtavruli capital letters (U+1C90..U+1CBA, U+1CBD..U+1CBF) has been added to Unicode 11.0.0, with case mappings to the existing Mkhedruli letters (U+10D0..U+10FA, U+10FD..U+10FF). In prior versions of the Unicode Standard, Mkhedruli Georgian was considered to be a monocameral (non-casing) script, and the Mkhedruli Georgian letters were gc=Lo. Starting with Version 11.0.0, those Mkhedruli Georgian letters are now gc=Ll, and have uppercase mappings to Mtavruli Georgian capital letters. This change

@AlexG did you post that on the code golfing site?

@skilmon No, I didn't dare to.

@AlexG am I allowed to post your code?

3:36 PM
yesterday, by Paulo Cereda
@AlanMunn What have the Unicode Consortium ever done for us?

@skillmon If you permit, I would do it, giving credit to your solution

@AlexG then go ahead. But you should remove the [scale=0.1]. Those are waste of bytes.
@AlexG Same for cyan!55!magenta. Just use blue

@skillmon and book for article ;-)

@Skillmon and \stop is shorter than \end{document}

@david thank you!

3:40 PM
@AlexG I had exam in mind, but book is good as well.

@AlexG no = in \b=\pdfunifo...

ok

And no need for \begin{document}. It throws some errors, but still draws the ducks on the output
And perhaps a space after \tikz{...} in order to allow everything to be on the output (not outside of the margin)

funny suggestion, will do that.

@AlexG And no \documentclass instead use \RequirePackage

3:44 PM
@DavidCarlisle \stop causes it to hang for me.

@AlanMunn Then you're doing something wrong

@skillmon as \space or as \9{ } as you did

@AlexG As an ordinary white space like: \tikz{...} \ifnum

ok

@AlexG the \9 was just because TeX eats the space after \endcsname and the required output format did include that space.

3:48 PM
I see :-)

@Skillmon Weird. The file crashed TeXShop and won't open any more. Bizarre behviour I've never encountered before.

With those changes you only need 225 bytes for pretty output of coloured ducks :) 6 bytes more.
@AlanMunn everything fine for VIM :) just run pdflatex from the command line on it

@Skillmon Yeah, ain't gonna happen. :) (Vim, that is.)

@AlanMunn Why not? It's the superior text editor. (Compared to everything that is)
@AlexG could you please post a link when you're done? And don't forget to include the output as an image :)

@skillmon blue is already used; indigo is cyan!55!magenta
@skilmon, keeping cyan... I have 268 B

3:58 PM
@Skillmon Sorry but I'm on the emacs side of the editor wars. :) But the code has uncovered a bug in TeXShop, however. Presumably in the syntax colouring code.

@AlexG that's bad. Keeping cyan I do get 225 bytes of code
Loads of error messages during compilation, but 225 bytes of code
@AlexG I cen get it down to 222 bytes by using LuaLaTeX instead of pdfLaTeX :)

I don't want to omit \begin{document}; ok?

@AlexG Why? You can omit \begin{document} and \documentclass that way.
@AlexG And if you use LuaLaTeX instead of pdfLaTeX you can use \uniformdeviate8 instead of \pdfuniformdeviate8
@AlexG The sport is called code golfing. You should make it with the lowest possible amount of bytes.

@Skillmon you could wait until the next latex release and then get it down to 5 bytes as \duck

@DavidCarlisle great idea. Then someone just has to provide that in the format :)

4:09 PM
@skillmon without \documentclass it doesn't run

@AlexG it does.
\RequirePackage{tikzducks}\newcount\b\let\c\def\c\0{red}\c\1{orange}\c\2{yellow‌​}\c\3{green}\c\4{blue}\c\5{cyan}\c\6{violet}\c\7{gray}\loop\b\uniformdeviate8\tik‌​z{\duck[body=\csname\the\b\endcsname]} \ifnum\b<7\repeat\stop
call it with lualatex -interaction nonstopmode

@Skillmon I think ignoring errors is possibly cheating but I get
! Undefined control sequence.
\iterate ->\b \uniformdeviate 8\tik
‌​z{\duck [body=\csname \the \b \end...
with luatex in tl2018 pretest?

@DavidCarlisle tl2017 frozen

@Skillmon oh hang on emacs is telling me something...

@DavidCarlisle That's really weird

4:14 PM
@Skillmon interesting spelling of tikz you have:
  U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T     t
U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I     i
U+006b LATIN SMALL LETTER K     k
U+200c ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER     &zwnj;
U+200b ZERO WIDTH SPACE     &ZeroWidthSpace; &NegativeVeryThinSpace; &NegativeThinSpace; &NegativeMediumSpace; &NegativeThickSpace;
U+007a LATIN SMALL LETTER Z     z

@DavidCarlisle In my vim it is 0x7a

@Skillmon if I delete the zero widths chars it works if you ignore missing document and undefined \normalsize (but I think that is possibly not allowed)

@skillmon : Ok, I got it. Here it is: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/159718/79196

@Skillmon try copying back the code from your comment above

@DavidCarlisle yep, now VIM shows me some stuff like <200c><200b> in front of z and after yellow.
@DavidCarlisle most likely the chat here, I guess.

4:19 PM
@Skillmon I blame vim

@DavidCarlisle But if you'd used VIM you'd have seen those characters, because VIM is nice and shows them in a distinguishable way. Your stupid OS just hides them from you.

@Skillmon actually they were visible of you look at the code in the buffer rather than just trusting some random rabbit on the internet and running it unseen.

@DavidCarlisle don't blame me. Blame the developers of this site. It only happens after posting it here. Copying from VIM into another instance of VIM (so also using the X clipboard) works just fine.
@AlexG you instantaneously got 5 upvotes :)

4 mins ago, by David Carlisle
@Skillmon I blame vim

@DavidCarlisle Copying into nano works as well.
@DavidCarlisle I blame emacs

4:27 PM
@skillmon and, that way, made it to the frontpage. Thanks!

2 hours later…
6:03 PM
@DavidCarlisle Replacing the \end{document} in the ducks code with \stop yields an illformed PDF which crashes both TeXShop and Skim. Any reason why this should happen?

6:14 PM
@JosephWright I had flagged this answer earlier as not an answer, but now it is. I don't know if flags expire, but in case you can undo it, it no longer needs converted to a comment.

@egreg @PauloCereda Are you friends around, please?

@yo' ack!

@yo' What am I, chopped liver? :D

@AlanMunn you are fwiend <3

@AlanMunn well, do you plan to go to TUG and visit SP afterwards?

6:17 PM
@yo' Nah, I'm just pulling your leg. :) But my advice: don't drive in SP.

@AlanMunn not that I planned this activity there. I may drive in Brazil, but I would get the car elsewhere

@yo' Driving anywhere in Brazil is an experience, but I would definitely not do it there. But there's great sushi to be had. (In SP, that is.)
@PauloCereda Oops, the cat is out of the bag duck is out of the pond.

@AlanMunn hm? :D

@PauloCereda <3

@AlanMunn <3
@AlanMunn: 7 hours yesterday... 7 hours talking about ABNT standards

6:21 PM
@PauloCereda oh, lovely </sarcasm>

@PauloCereda ugh

@AlanMunn not really

@DavidCarlisle I thought at first it was something with the source code highlighting, but it's definitely the PDF.
@DavidCarlisle And it completely hangs both programs so that you have to force them to quit.

6:38 PM
@DavidCarlisle What's the status of \pdf@mdfivesum in XeLaTeX (package pdftexcmds)?

@AlanMunn its a bit odd \stop is an abbreviated \enddocument but mostly it skips closing the aux properly and re-reading it to check for undefined references etc, as far as I cab see just looking again in the sources, it doesn't do much different to teh final typeset output, they basically both do \clearpage\@@end

@DavidCarlisle I think we discussed about it some time ago

@egreg I recall having a discussion but I don't recall what the issue was
@egreg oh xetex, it's stalled waiting for a primitive, I think

@DavidCarlisle XeTeX has the primitive \mdfivesum, but still pdftexcmds doesn't acknowledge it

@egreg oh sorry was thinking of random numbers, hang on let me look...

6:40 PM
@DavidCarlisle The primitive was added last year after lobbying by @JosephWright

@egreg looks like I added it: github.com/ho-tex/oberdiek/issues/35

@DavidCarlisle So we're just waiting for a release?

@egreg I suppose a ctan release wouldn't hurt:-)
@egreg building the bundle is somewhat painful but I'll see what I can do...

@samcarter Apparently you disliked my edit :). Fair enough.

@egreg Really ought to get round to setting up the code ideas I had for this ...

1 hour later…
7:55 PM
@Dr.ManuelKuehner I realize that for longer answers the usage of bold/italic can improve the readability, however don't think this is necessary for a one-sentence answer.

2 hours later…
9:57 PM
Guess not. I'll be back in a bit; dinner calls. (Channels Pac-Man, Yoshi, or Kirby; take your pick.)

@RandomDSdevel Like I said, I suspect not
@RandomDSdevel I find duplicate$pop$ works just fine :) Then again, I really don't get 'standard' debugging as there is no \tracingall ...

@RandomDSdevel I don't quite see the value -- almost all documents I get today use biblatex/biber.

10:33 PM
@JosephWright More's the pity, then.
@JosephWright Well, you could set a debugger to step into and out of every function call as if each invocation's target was inlined, I suppose.

@RandomDSdevel in principle of course you could run bibtex in a debugger but then you'd be tracing the C generated from web/pascal so a long way from the natural flow of the stack based bst language so I doubt it would be very informative

@DavidCarlisle Right. I doubt that would help, too.
One would want to see how BibTeX does, not examine its entrails.
@UlrikeFischer I was slightly annoyed by result of taking the recommendation by ctan.org/tex-archive/info/simplified-latex?lang=en to just use BibTeX's plain style (listings of multiple authors put in the MLA format look spiffier to me, though that could partly be due to the fact that I used versions MLA throughout middle and high school.)
So I thought modifying one or more of the base BibTeX styles to have MLA-like multiple-author listing without looking for a full-blown MLA BibTeX style (couldn't need it for a tutorial) wouldn't be too hard. I'm still digging myself out of that rabbit hole, as you can see.

@RandomDSdevel I don't know that guide but a basic guide to latex suggesting using the most basic bibtex style sounds reasonable

10:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle It's either that, alpha.bst, or unsrt.bst (I'm actually leaning towards the last of these since the tutorial's exercises don't lend themselves to having the reader produce very big documents and it seems to me that small documents could, at least for some readers, possibly benefit from having bibliography entries fall in the order they were cited in main text.)

@RandomDSdevel ordering in order of citation seems popular given questions here. It always seems a bit strange to me, I suppose it's just conventions in different subject areas. I'm pretty sure back when i was reading and publishing math papers they all had references in alphabetic order of authors

@DavidCarlisle That makes sense for texts longer than a page, bibliography included on that first and only page or not, since it helps with mental indexing, but it seems like it would involve a small amount of overkill for something that would only be kept around as an example to jog one's future self's memory, if that, Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

11:17 PM
Later, all! (Makes an exit.)