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10:11 PM
@Tinkeringbell Look... I just want to say...
I think you're one of a small handful of people who actually get how this site could work. Who are able to take a holistic view of how folks interact here, and see the opportunities for improvement.
And I know very well how incredibly discouraging that is.
So if you're feeling like you maybe don't want to be here... If it's starting to feel like a chore instead of a challenge... If it's not fun...
...you should definitely walk away.
Not necessarily forever, but for now.
Because otherwise, you will walk away forever.
I've told this story before, but...
After about two years on Stack Overflow, I'd had it. I was tired.
Tired of being called a nazi. Tired of trying to make things better and being criticized for it the entire way.
Tired of telling folks that "list of things" questions couldn't work, tired of patiently sharing observations from past sites, tired of waiting for shit to hit the fan and then helping to clean it up.
And tired of being blamed for not having a big enough smile while doing it.
So I walked away. I cut my participation down to almost nothing. I joined Seasoned Advice and Programmers under different names, and tried to help build those sites - but did almost no closing, or downvoting, or criticism. Heck, I went out of my way to defend topics and behaviors that previously I would've criticized.
It was someone else's turn.
And... It was immensely refreshing.
I stopped getting emails telling me what a terrible person I was. I stopped waking up in the middle of the night to find my inbox full of angry people I didn't know passing judgement about my life.
And 6 months or so later, when Jeff asked me if I would work for the company... I was able to say "yes" without feeling like I was being asked to put a noose around my own neck.
...ok, I stalled for a couple of months, but here's the kicker: when I went back to meta & started reading some of the stuff I'd been ignoring... Turns out, I wasn't alone. Other people had gotten sick of the fluff and nonsense too. Other people had gotten sick of lazy, poorly-written questions. A lot of other people.
It opened my eyes. Here I'd been feeling sorry for myself, feeling like I was some desert prophet eating locusts and preaching to jackrabbits... But I was just being impatient.
The problems become manifest soon enough and even the folks who'd damned me were ready to admit that something needed to be done... And they did it.
The zeitgeist changed, and brought with it the change I'd despaired ever seeing.
If I hadn't walked away when I did, I would've been bitter. But instead, I came back refreshed, energized, and willing to help.
 
I wonder though
 
Patience is not my strong point... But I've learned to appreciate its advantages, and highly recommend it. Keeping in mind that patience does not mean you have to be a slave to the status quo. You can always take a break.
 
It feels like we're overreaching by quite a lot in trying to force the community into guidelines the majority obviously has no interest in accepting
 
</end of rambling story>
 
Feels like fighting against windmills
 
10:24 PM
because it is
 
And now that you've gone through this, you're able to have hope for other sites?
 
But isn't fighting against windmills famously pointless
 
you can say, "this will cause problems" or "this is a problem" and "this is what we must do to solve it"... But until a majority of the core userbase see it, you can do nothing.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't say it
But once you've said it, you must be patient or you're wasting your time.
 
Is anything actually going to happen? I feel like I spend hours of my free time trying to argue a point a large chunk of the userbase has no interest in considering
 
Getting angry or dictatorial won't change their minds any faster.
@Magisch so you make your arguments and then you wait.
 
10:26 PM
In fact, it may slow things down...
 
I can't count the number of times I've written essentially the same answer, posted the same comment, written the same email reply...
You get better at making the same argument eventually; more succinct.
 
People need to come to the realization themselves...
 
Looks like you didn't have a choice though
being an employee and all
 
@Magisch I wasn't an employee for the first three years of Stack Overflow.
 
fair enough
 
10:28 PM
heck, I was part-time until almost 4
 
Do you actually think this site has a future, by the way?
 
That depends
 
I'm ... not quite sure to be honest
 
From the beginning I've had to fight people who think that this site is for "fun".
 
It feels like we're drifting into the everyone's got an opinion and the easiest and most unoffensive ones get upvoted territory
 
10:29 PM
SE Sites that have a future are those that are persistently useful to people. Not just the folks who hang out & answer questions, not just the small number of individuals who ask them, but the 1000x more who find those questions, read those answers, and find them applicable.
If this continues down the "give me a script for [specific situation]" route, I doubt that'll happen.
 
It's good to not have all of your eggs in one basket. Thankfully charcoal is there for something to make me feel actually useful when I'm burnt out here or at SO
 
If it ends up being a battleground for ideologies and cultures, it definitely won't happen.
But, it doesn't have to go that way.
when I try to imagine a useful IPS site, I think about myself 20 years ago, and what I was struggling to learn.
 
When I try to imagine one, I'd like to see a lot of generally applicable advice in seeing other perspectives and being able to consider them
 
Personally, I was over the moon when I found IPS
 
@Magisch Really? That seems really broad.
 
10:32 PM
I'm not talking BS "how to win friends" stuff. Basic human interaction stuff: how to handle a compliment genuinely, how to handle criticism gracefully, how to identify a new co-worker's PoV and how to respect that PoV without necessarily agreeing to it.
 
most social interaction boils down to that anyways. It's been very useful for me in particular because I'm as dense as a neutron star in these things
 
@Shog9 I feel like some of those topics would be closed as intrapersonal or opinion-based these days. :-\
 
It's at least reassuring to see that SE is interested in making this work
 
An awful lot of the folks who write about this stuff are... Well, if I'm being honest, full of it. But if you want to be generous, they're more aspirational than practical.
 
The perfect solution isn't always going to actually work?
 
10:34 PM
@Shog9 I was thinking that I was very guilty of this when writing my answer to the wedding question
 
If i'm trying to learn how to behave in a given society, I don't care how you think people should interact. I want to know how I can get through the day without being yelled at or ignored.
 
The whole "Its your wedding and your choice" thing is really obvious and popular but lord knows it can backfire and be unpractical
 
I want to know how people work in the context in which I'm operating.
 
unpopular opinion but.. a lot of the "script" questions have already been useful to me. kind of like "help me debug my code" questions on SO - very specific, but if I'm struggling with "how do I even start to think about this problem", seeing someone else's script for a related situation is useful because I can start to pick out the elements that I need to solve mine
3
 
That's sort of difficult without actually knowing the people, though?
 
10:36 PM
@EmC I don't think that's unpopular at all
 
I hope we don't fall into the "Your culture is bad and needs to change" as answer to a genuine question trap
 
@Shog9 hmm, ok. I was basing this off of your earlier statement about "give me a script for [specific situation]"
 
@Magisch I mean... that's happened
 
Yes and now that I say it out loud I've definitely been that guy
its very easy and feels good on a level to be that guy
 
I think the difference between a good and bad "script" answer is if the answer explains the reasoning behind the script
 
10:38 PM
@spiralsucculent ^^^ yes, definitely
 
imo scripts can work if the answer highlights some background as to why a specific given approach works
 
as the difference between a good and bad SO debug the code answer is explaining the why of the debugging
 
that way you can identify common elements as unrelated listener
 
I would still love to see "generic" questions too, but I feel like they'd just get shot down right now as "too broad, we need a location tag, what is your relationship to them, etc"
 
I'd also like to see more questions about understanding social norms
 
10:39 PM
SO is full of questions that are about really seemingly specific problems, but the answers cover the "class" of problem being faced and how to identify/prevent such issues in the future
 
@EmC here's the thing: debugging questions get a lot of crap, but debugging is one of the hardest and most important things a programmer can learn to do. Answers that teach folks how to debug are worth their weight in ... ok, they're just worth a lot.
The problem is when you get questions where the only answers are "try this: <code dump with unspecified changes>"
 
Worth their weight in bitcoin? :-P
 
@EmC This is definitely a challenge right now
@TheTinyMan hahaha
 
user15026
@TheTinyMan How would one weigh bitcoin?
 
@Ash Probably the same way one would weigh an answer
 
10:40 PM
How would one weigh a question...
 
We have 4 categories that the help center describes as on topic, but I only ever see good questions asked in one of them
 
How would one weigh an SE post?
 
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to derail :-p
 
So when you get a question here asking "how do I respond to X?" and the answer is "Tell 'em <pithy line>"... what are they learning?
 
@Rainbacon There's a reason I put them in there... I was hoping it might inspire more of them and prevent people who are unused to seeing them here from close voting them as off topic.
 
10:41 PM
@Shog9 I actually learned to code mostly by reading answers like these on SO
Vocational school notwithstanding because it was utterly useless
 
Yeah, they're awesome.
 
not to toot my own horn, but that's what I see as the differenece between mine and Peter's answer on the Name slip up questions interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11631/…
 
They're like an infinite source of Raymond "psychic debugger" Chen posts.
They teach you how to think
 
###### toots own horn
 
@Catija I often have questions about why people interact the way they do. Haven't had any since I joined IPS, but I'll definitely make sure to post the next time I have one
 
10:42 PM
@Shog9 yeah.. and there's a big canonical C++ debugging post on SO right? eventually I imagine we will get a few of those for the common questions also (e.g. "q: how do I tell them? a: use your words" and X-Y-Z stuff Tinkeringbell made the meta about)
 
> Why do users rage quit?
 
There was a controversial question a few months back... Something about annoyed by folks asking about pending nuptials. And... A whole bunch of folks responded with snarky one-liners, essentially to pat the OP on the back for taking a stand against such inappropriate questions.
 
Maybe that's better for Community Building, though.
 
they were all worthless
 
cuz they mad
 
10:43 PM
The one useful answer essentially said, "answer 'em honestly"
Because, in the OP's cultural context... The question was entirely appropriate and expected.
Annoying? Sure.
Rude in a different culture in a different timeline? Probably.
 
and stepping away from a source of frustration
nvm
 
But in the context where the asker was operating, flipping out over family and friends asking an honest question would be a major faux pas.
and THAT is what this site should be doing.
Helping folks navigate.
Telling them how to hide an element using JavaScript instead of telling them "drop that and use jQuery".
 
@Shog9 To that end "Flaunt your entire culture and start changing it to be more like a western liberalist democracy" is pretty self congratulatory and unhelpful
 
There have been a couple of them... I'm guessing he's talking about :: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/1894/…
 
@Magisch also hypocritical an awful lot of the time, I suspect.
 
10:45 PM
I think that case is really where HNQ does the most damage
 
@Catija yep! That's the one!
@spiralsucculent pretty sure the one person to give an honest and helpful answer to the question Cat just linked was sourced from HNQ
 
Though, I don't know that there's anything about the US culture that makes that special? Lots of Americans never get married.
 
if y'all want this site to grow, circling the wagons now ain't useful.
 
HNQ is something we'll have to live with
 
(Unless you think the core community here is perfect and has an exhaustive knowledge of human behavior)
 
10:47 PM
Also we might be better off addressing problematic behavior then addressing a source where some of it comes from
@Shog9 I'm part of that so probably not :D
 
@Shog9 I'm an HNQ pull, I don't think HNQ is totally evil
 
user15026
I think one of the hardest things for an IPS site is for people to look outside their own experience. Like I can tell you how I'd approach a thing, being a white fat queer female-shaped human who was raised rural in the Christian faith who now lives in a decentish sized city in Canada, but that ....might be the complete antithesis to what you actually need.
 
user15026
Knowing when not to answer is just as important as knowing when to answer.
5
 
but on controversial culture specific questions where theres a highly voted "western liberal" answer was what I was referring to
@Shog9 I mean I do obviously, but i sleep sometimes
 
That's happened, too... and often, a cultural-specific one will come along and prove how awful it is.
 
user15026
10:52 PM
The hard part too is people are going to likely vote with whatever matches their viewpoint. So if you get a western liberal answer, the people who are that thing will be like "YES THAT IS WHAT I WOULD DO. +1 to you, you excellent human"
 
Again, I think back to me 20 years ago, when I was moving between several vastly different and somewhat incompatible cultures, and ... being young and stupid, had it in my head that the way to make this work was to just be myself (one of the most common and most worthless bits of advice given to kids if I do say so).
Guess what? That's being selfish; that's being rude to people because you dislike small talk rather than trying to understand why phatic communication matters to them, or because you want to take pictures of a public place and don't understand their desire for privacy.
That's a thousand little mistakes I only recognized years later, because no one actually tells you these things.
 
Nah, they just walk away and think youre a jerk
 
Right. So you spend years wondering why the world hates you, and finally it dawns on you that the world doesn't care - either you meet it on its own terms, or you GTFO.
2
 
user15026
@Shog9 "just be yourself", augh I hate that - I actually had a lot of conversation this past weekend about how in some cases, I have to actively "not be myself" because it was actively harming my interactions (speaking generally about job interviews for specific types of corporate culture, but it's more widely applicable), and people were so shocked that just being myself wasn't the right answer
 
thats another issue, its totally plausible to think something is a good IPS tactic because you've never gotten negative feedback on it in your own life, when in fact people just don't tell you youre being an ass
 
10:55 PM
But there has to be some balance in there... if you spend your entire everything doing what's expected of you... do you ever even know who you are.
 
user15026
"Oh well if you're meant to be there, they will hire you" doesn't put food on the table.
 
user15026
@Catija Who gets to make that judgement, though?
 
@Catija hey... As y'all know as well as anyone, I'm perfectly happy to be a rude, uncaring jackass when the situation warrants. But... That should be because I believe the situation warrants, not because I honestly don't realize it's happening.
 
This is very interesting because my experience has been the opposite, that I've had to explicitly learn as an adult that expressing myself might lead to stronger bonds and better team dynamics, even in the workplace.
 
user15026
What if I feel a large amount of contentment, doing what my culture/family/whatever expects in whatever instance?
 
user15026
10:56 PM
(Also, it's kinda hyperbole, no one will do what is expected of them 100% of the time)
 
... some people try.
 
"Be yourself with your friends and loved ones (except when that would fuck it all up, then be somebody nearly you)"
 
user15026
@spiralsucculent I call it being the "shiny" version. Me, but with the weird bits rubbed off.
 
user15026
@Catija Again, though, if you're judging from the outside....it's not a fair thing
 
user15026
A lot of people would say I do too much to please my family, for example
 
10:57 PM
@TheTinyMan it definitely goes both ways, the key is exposing the right parts of yourself
 
user15026
Except...I'm happy with our dynamic. (Most of the time. We're human after all)
 
just being myself has done me a fat load of nothing so far btw
 
@Ash being the version of you that's shiny to the people youre interacting with
 
society has unspoken rules that one must learn and abide to move forward
 
user15026
@spiralsucculent precisely, yes
 
10:59 PM
okay, I need to actually get work done... I use SE as a time waster at work, but when I get really involved it starts fucking up my productivity
 
user15026
@Catija Then that's your thing to figure out for yourself. I see it as a situational awareness thing. Like sometimes, authentic me loses me people, and sometimes, that's an okay risk to take. Sometimes, I have to camouflage bits for whatever reason to gain people or to prevent something awkward/bad/harmful/uncomfortable/needless
 
see y'all later
 
user15026
@spiralsucculent waves
 
user15026
(Or sometimes, I hide bits because they're just not useful to the present situation).
 
feels like we are talking about cool IPS stuff here, thanks for kicking off a good convo @Shog9
 
user15026
11:01 PM
That isn't to say I'm not genuine in my interactions, though - but I do, for example, have a specific "voice" I use when I do customer service where I can speak about my life in ways that help me connect with customers, but I can turn it off and go home. (It actually weirds people out, because I also use it if I am the customer, because it's kinda a Batsignal of "I know how to play this game")
 
user15026
Sorry, I just find this stuff fascinating because humans are all different and we all see things differently and it's fun to see where the patterns are (and where they are really not)
 
11:11 PM
It's all well and good to be "respectful" of other cultures, but we all have those issues, lines, beliefs, or whatever you want to call them... Granted, in some ways we're all a product of our culture, but we're also responsible for shaping the cultures we want to see in the world. I obviously, and unapologetically, have my point of view, in many instances this clashes with other cultures and my own culture.
 
user15026
@apaul Then there are some questions here you should not answer
 
user15026
There is a difference between "hey this is actively going to cause someone harm" and "this does not mesh with my worldview"
 
@Ash heh, I do that on the phone with service reps - switch to my "support" voice. Loud, clearly-enunciated, even-cadence, formal but not stilted, almost as though I'm reading a very carefully-written script. I don't even realize it until my wife gets a very worried look on her face...
 
user15026
@Shog9 laughs I once had a Canada Revenue Agency rep compliment me on my "customer service voice" when I called them about some tax stuff. Like recognizes like, I suppose :P
 
spend enough time reading numbers back to people and it's hard to ever quite stop.
 
user15026
11:14 PM
Indeed.
 
To use an easy example, and one that shows up on the site from time to time, some people think it's ok to treat women like property. It's a part of their culture. Should we step aside in those instances, or should we step up?
 
yeah... that's too broad to be actionable.
If you're giving a woman advice that's gonna get her killed in her culture because you think she should be able to act a certain way.... I'd say that's a bad move.
Regrettable that the situation exists, but playing with other people like pawns for your own sense of justice ain't cool.
OTOH, guy who's culture dictates treating his wife a certain way asking if he should treat his wife that way... That's an opportunity: if you understand the culture well enough to help him rise above it, you can make a real difference.
 
user15026
But if you don't, you're just going to alienate people and they're going to be like "oh those Westerners" (or whatever group), always getting in my business, they don't know how we do things"
 
But. These are never simple situations. And I don't think it's fair or honest or useful to pretend they are just because you, in your culture, don't have that problem.
 
@Shog9 That's the sort of question we see here an awful lot. Take the never ending series of "how do I approach women in situation x?"
 
11:22 PM
Gratuitous story: after moving to my current location, I ended up in a situation where I was sheltering my neighbors' daughter on multiple occasions when she came here seeking refuge from her abusive father.
Their culture was... I donno if "well-to-do JW" makes sense, but if it does that was the culture. Suffice to say, the cops showed up here repeatedly and I was in danger of getting charged with something or other.
The solution ended up being to immediately put in a call to the police when the daughter arrived, put her on the phone, and make a report.
Once that was on the record, I was in the clear and didn't have to kick her out until the cops physically arrived to take her home.
Which gave the father time to sober up a bit, usually.
I hated this situation.
There's no way to feel good about it. But also nothing I could see to do to improve it.
 
@Shog9 :/
 
But... I did the best I could to work around it without being callous to the girl's fear.
 
Sounds like a lose-lose situation
 
Some situations are like that.
 
That's true for a lot of cases.... To make this a little more pointed... If that girl's father posted a question on IPS stating his culture and religious leanings, asking how to better control his daughter. Would you step back, or step up? Everyone has a line, your's is most likely different from mine, but to pretend that it's not there, or to pretend it's somehow better to not act on it for the purposes of SE is incredibly lame.
 
11:30 PM
Anyway. The easy response to that situation was to tell the wife to take her daughter & leave self-hating the drunk, find a better living situation, and get on with their lives. That wasn't acceptable though; in their culture, that was a major, major step - allowable only in certain situations, none of which quite squared with how they could see themselves.
So they stayed together - unhappy - to this day.
and I provided refuge when needed, even when the guy came to my door threatening me while his wife and kid hid upstairs.
Preaching to them about how they could solve their problems by abandoning their culture may've made me feel better, but did nothing to help them.
Giving them a place to go when they couldn't stand to stay... That was helpful, even if not very much or for very long.
 
So, you stepped up in the way that the situation allowed.
 
I don't like that culture. I don't agree with it, and cannot speak well of it. But respecting it allowed me to be helpful in a way that I couldn't have been otherwise.
 
How would you have responded if the father had asked the question? Would you have stepped aside or told him flatly that, regardless of culture, what he was doing was wrong?
 
user15026
Telling him flat out he was wrong wouldn't change anything, most likely.
 
user15026
If anything, you'd make things worse for the rest of the family when they went home.
 
11:35 PM
@apaul When he came to my door, I backed him up into my driveway, until he broke down in tears. Then I listened to him talk about his failings and fears, his struggle with the church, his alienation from his family, and his general dissatisfaction with his life.
Then I quoted scripture to him, and tried to help him see his duty as a father and husband.
To this day, I don't know if that did one bit of good. If he even remembered any of it when he sobered up the next day.
But, I expect that's what I would do if he'd asked a question here instead of sobbing in front of my house.
 
So, even though you weren't apart of his culture, you did the right thing.
 
user15026
You met him as closely as you could, in terms of viewpoint, is what I'm seeing, I think? Like...you don't share all his views, but you found as much common ground as you could with it.
 
user15026
Which I think a lot of people forget to do.
 
@Ash They absolutely do :-(
 
@apaul I still tried to understand his culture. Because... How else could I communicate with him?
 
user15026
11:39 PM
Telling people (especially if the culture is especially insular) that "oh they're wrong"...not going to help. Like I come from a very specific religious culture (luckily the more progressive side of it, but neh, it's still a thing). If you just go "oh well you're wrong and this is bad" they'll just go "shun the nonbeliever" (kinda sometimes literally, actually)
 
@Shog9 See that's a fair point. Now we're getting somewhere meaningful.
There's a difference between "don't challenge someone's culture" and "if you're going to challenge someone's culture, do it more effectively"
 
I have... Zero training as a CM. I'm wholly unsuitable for this role, with the exception of a big pile of experience in online communities in general and SO/SE in particular. For most of the stuff I do, I've had to learn it as I go along...
Which ain't the worst thing, when it comes right down to it. Admitting that the folks in a given community are the experts and you're at best a naive inexperienced acolyte trying to help them - admitting that to yourself first and foremost - puts you in the right frame of mind to listen. And although I'm not very good at most of this, I can at least do that... Which lets me stumble through communication later on when the situation arises.
There's a nasty tendency, when folks get together, to talk past one another endlessly. Not listening, not understanding, not adjusting to what the other can understand.
Some folks seem to be just naturally good at this, at finding ways to talk to others. But for most of us, I think... For me, certainly... It gets a lot easier if you can put aside your own ego and try to figure out where folks are coming from, even if you don't like it.
 
user15026
One of the hardest lessons of some of this is the "It's not about you" part
 
@Shog9 I am certainly not naturally good at this either. Just trying to identify some shades of gray that we seem to be shoehorning into black and white. Or at least that's what the earlier conversation looked like.
 
there are very few distinct lines in IPS
lots of rules that apply in only a few situations, and lots of those rules that are "more like guidelines"
what trips folks up is that this ... fuzziness ... doesn't mean you can ignore the rules. It just makes for a lot more interesting times when it comes to applying them.
It's kinda like HTML.
multiple specs, multiple interpretations of each spec, and the only hard rule is "be strict in what you produce, flexible in what you accept"
is it any wonder that HTML has consistently won out over multiple alternatives deemed technically superior? It meshes with how humans behave.
 
11:58 PM
When I was a kid, I had to go to manners classes... and when I learned how to be well mannered, what I got the most out of it is that knowing the rules is important so that you can break the rules with purpose rather than ignorance... And this was one of the things I loved about Empire novels... that high society where manners were so important and where intentionally slighting someone was a grave insult.
 
Hmm... "Does this bit work without breaking the other bits" or "is implementing this worth breaking that in the long run?" I'm not a great code monkey either.
 
user15026
@Catija A lot of life is knowing when to break the rules, and when not to. And sometimes people get this "fuck the rules I do what I want" ideology, and that's....not always going to work out.
 

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