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9:33 AM
@Sentinel Because it's not. If you were a professor and asked out a student, or if you were a manager and asked out someone you were managing, you'd be possibly fired and possibly fined/jailed. It's not always ok to do that.
And cashier <-> customer is a similar sort of power imbalance
8 hours later…
5:53 PM
@D.Hutchinson :D
6:29 PM
@D.Hutchinson Please do :P
@Tinkeringbell huh? please do what? :)
Hi @LightnessRacesinOrbit :)
@Tinkeringbell for the record, i thought your answer was a good one and the end of your answer actually aligns exactly with my own personal approach, which has been successful in the past. I am upset that it seems that others who want to add a different viewpoint are treated like second-class citizens, with their comments removed -- and then even when they take it to Meta, they encounter rude, snarky Meta answers.
I have nothing against your answer post at all - though if someone wants to say it's "extremist", they should be able to do so.
otherwise, the community - and its diamond mods - seems to have propped up a one-sided winning debate that is your answer - that's a bad way to progress for this site ...
it seems clique-y ... and if you recall ... a trusted high-rep user said this just a few hours ago, too ...
anyway, I have to go ... c ya
7:07 PM
First off, there's a chatroom and meta created where that can be discussed, this room is titled 'discussion on answer by Tinkeringbell' not 'discussion on site policy'. I'd encourage you to work these remarks into an answer there. While you're at it though, please keep the following in mind:

They can, there's an e-mail in my profile and I'm in the site chatroom. But how is 'extremist' suggesting an improvement or asking for clarification? Go search meta, there's an excellent post by the community manager Shog that tell us 'this site's purpose is not *to discuss*'.
7:27 PM
This site indeed feels clique-y - I'll speak for myself then, if you don't want me to reference other people. Clique-y is very natural of any site / chat room, right? Sure, I can accept that. But this is *new* and it's critical to have a balance of voices on this site, and not let become something such that the clique wins one-sides debates all the time. Yes, people can post their own answers, but I strongly suspect that they have no faith in the voting system, precisely because the site feels clique-y.
So as not to mince words, the site doesn't feel safe for heterosexual men who want to add something to a question. Regarding Shog, I have even brought this up to him about two months ago. You see, many more people, other than myself, seem to voice these same concerns, over and over again.

So as not to mince words, the site doesn't feel safe for heterosexual men who want to add something to a question. Regarding Shog, I have even brought this up to him about two months ago. You see, many more people, other than myself, seem to voice these same concerns, over and over again.
Sorry, on mobile now and sent that twice by accident ...
It seems like a place for women and people in the lgbt class to criticize and degrade heterosexual men that have IPS questions.
and when we push back, comments are deleted, suspensions are handed out, etc.
so whatever content is left on the site is artificially propped up ...
it wasn't that quality rises to the top, people don't believe that is happening in IPS SE
@D.Hutchinson I'm a heterosexual man and I fully agree with this top-voted answer by Tinkeringbell. The main issue here is situational context. Not being able to ask out a cashier (or a waitress, or the woman on the bus with her conspicuous headphones on and her nose buried in a book) will not mean the end of heterosexual relationships. Go out to a bar, or a dance club, or join a dating site, or a meetup group, or a bible study.
This question bears a lot of similarity to this one:
Q: How to talk to a girl who's sitting next to me but wearing headphones?

D.HutchinsonOver the past couple of weeks, there's been this really cute girl who sits near me inside a coffee shop, which has a cozy, "productive" vibe to it -- everyone's doing work on their laptops. I want to start a conversation with this girl, but there's one significant obstacle: she's always wearing ...

Is this discussion necessary? If there are issues with how the site is being run or what policies are in place, that's not an issue for chat - and especially not an issue for a chatroom that's not here to discuss it in the first place.
And the correct answer is the same: don't. The context is slightly different, but a lot of the same context clues apply
@ArtOfCode I already mentioned that, but maybe the blue will help :)
7:39 PM
@ArtOfCode Better here than in the comments!
@BradC Better, but not best :)
@BradC - as I've said, I agreed with tinkeringbell's answer and my approach to asking out a lady cashier, once in a blue moon, matches her advice. But it seems a lot of men want to say something different but get crazy backlash for it ... they're not necessarily "wrong" either ...
(shrug). I kinda view chat rooms as the "whatever random talk doesn't fit elsewhere", but I see you'd want them to at least stay on topic to the room itself.
@ArtOfCode I think it's constructive - but if you must need me to stop, let me know. I could perhaps post something on meta but prefer not to, for now.
@BradC Yeah, that exactly. As for why not chat in general - chat isn't the place for discussions like these because they affect more than just the denizens of chat. Policy and leadership discussions belong where everyone can see them - anything else does the community a disservice.
7:45 PM
@Tinkeringbell I have not read the links you provided - give me a bit and I'll respond after lunch ... thanks
@D.Hutchinson Find another way to do it (preferably take the discussion to meta), as @ArtOfCode we're not supposed to discuss here or in chatrooms when it comes to site policy
Ok ,,,
8:19 PM
These types of questions always remind me of this hilarious medium article
1 hour later…
9:38 PM
@D.Hutchinson Yeah, you did send me an email. And I never replied, because I think the sorts of questions where this comes up are beyond worthless.
If the best this site can accomplish is guidance for folks looking for love in all the wrong places... It's worthless. We could just create a static page at shoulditrytohookupwithrandompeopleinspiteofmylackofsocialawaren…
These sorts of questions have made a bunch of people money selling self-help books... and will probably continue to do so, because false hope is always a good hook. But that shouldn't be what we're providing here.
Fortunately, there are an awful lot of interpersonal skills that can be addressed here: because they involve changes to how the asker approaches the situation instead of overt manipulation of other people.
So if you want to do something good, focus on those questions.
And leave the cheesy PUA advice to fly-by fleabags where it belongs.
9:59 PM
@Shog9 just to be clear, are questions concerning how to talk to women, as a straight man, discouraged on IPS SE then? Personally, I don't have any intention of learning and implementing any PUA methods. However, talking to women is something that I'd say I don't have much foundation with and perhaps discussing it on IPS is helpful - but it doesn't feel all that safe, because of the backlash that comes with the answers.
For instance, there's a big assumption that one who attempts to talk to a women will land up being creepy or stalkerish, it seems.
Good point about people taking advantage of false hope and profiting off of it - I will keep this in mind.
It kinda seems like people expressing their issues with autism, with coming out as lgbt, etc., are more accepted here ...
@D.Hutchinson ok, so... Here's the thing: as much as those self-help books I mentioned earlier try to obfuscate it, the truth is that women are people - humans, like myself and probably even you.
And communication between people is a fine topic for the site. As long as you're focused on what you do and not what you're trying to get someone else to do.
@D.Hutchinson yeah, there's some creepy stuff there too. Guess what: straight folks don't have a monopoly on being creepy. Doesn't make it better.
Also doesn't excuse anyone else.
I see ...
You want to do something useful, focus on writing questions and answers that are useful. Not divining the lowest bar allowable and aiming to hit it.
Back when SO was new, we wasted months debating precisely how worthless a question could be and still remain on the site as long as it was popular. Looking back, that was... not a great use of anyone's time. Lotta folks put real work into answers on questions that probably never helped a single person, unless you count giving them something entertaining to read over lunch.
But that's how it goes.
Jeff Atwood on January 31, 2012

Way back in 2008, we had Alexis Ohanian and Steve Huffman, the founders and co-creators of Reddit, on the Stack Overflow podcast. We chatted about a bunch of stuff, but one of the things they said that always stuck with me was that Reddit always took an explicitly hands-off, no moderation approach to their content from the very beginning.

I found that a bit shocking, since I’ve… never seen that work. Certainly on Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange we are very much pro-moderation — and more so with every passing year. We have literally hundreds of community moderators. We spend  …

10:26 PM
@D.Hutchinson Despite the comment storm this post and the other (about asking out women wearing headphones) generated, I don't think either of them are bad questions, they're certainly not uncommon ideas. But in both contexts, the necessary "pre-question" to "how can I ask them out" is "should I try to ask someone out in this context?".
And yes, I'm sure its frustrating to be told, "In this context, probably not, because of X, Y, Z." But look on the bright side: if you take this advice to heart, you can get better at recognizing contexts in which women MIGHT be receptive.
The truth is that many women get hit on all the freaking time, just by existing in public. And many of them hate it. Which is why they do deliberate things like wear big obnoxious headphones as a "stay away" symbol.
(caveats apply, "not all women", depends on location, etc. etc. etc)
But if you're willing to listen, or if you seek them out, you'll hear stories like this all the time. Google for "why I wear headphones on the bus" or "how do I keep men from bothering me on the train" for lots of horror stories.
Reading these stories, personally, has helped me (as a man) better understand how a woman might be feeling in that kind of a situation; to be able to put myself in her shoes. To recognize signs I wouldn't have picked up on before (hiding in her novel, deliberately ignoring people around her, etc.)
10:44 PM
@Shog9 @BradC yeah ... the thing is, using my question regarding asking a girl out while she's wearing headphones near me at a coffee shop, I think it's a pretty natural IPS question for many men, and it might be perceived as not useful but I think it has a lot of value.
Shog: regarding asking better questions (and writing better answers), one needs a stronger foundation in IPS first, so these curious, experimental type of questions (can I talk to a girl wearing headphones?) should be considered "playing with data" in some lab that is IPS SE. From there, better questions can be asked, I think.
... in contrast to a technical site such as math or stackoverflow, where there are probably a bunch of pre-reqs required of the asker ... people with a real foundation in that topic ... 15 years of schooling, for instance ...
@BradC that's a good point about asking "should ... " as a pre-question ...
I've often thought about that, too, but I think IPS doesn't allow that ...
because that would be "making a decision for the OP", which IPS doesn't offer ...
a decision has to be made by the OP, e.g. I've decided I'm going to talk this girl who's wearing headphones -- how do I do this?
11:01 PM
@D.Hutchinson Guess I'm not familiar with that particular rules nuance here on IPS, that doesn't exist on other SE sites. And frankly, you don't know what you don't yet know, so unless you had reason to wonder if it was appropriate to begin with, you wouldn't have thought to ask "should I even?" to the question.
@BradC yeah ...
But despite the unexpected nature of the answers, your question isn't being downvoted or closed. So you got that goin' for ya :)
that's true :)
the thing is, @BradC, @Shog9, that question was something I've been curious about for awhile but don't recall ever trying - I don't think I've ever interrupted a girl wearing headphones. To my mind, it wasn't a question I've created with the intention that it'd meet the minimal, acceptable standards of IPS SE. It sucks if it's perceived that way, because I am pretty confident that many others have thought of this scenario, never acted on it, and have wished to discuss it beforehand ...
if someone asks a Calculus I question on math.SE, we'd have pretty clear expectations of what a "good" question would be ...
e.g., that asker should be proficient in all of their high school algebra and precalculus ...
here at IPS, my question, to my mind, is a good one, while many others might say, "my god, I CAN'T BELIEVE you even have to ask this ... "
@D.Hutchinson You've discussed it on IPS twice now, once in chat once as a real question. Your question is being answered and currently has a a net total of 19 upvotes. What is the problem you are having?
@sphennings I'm mostly responding to Brad and Shog -- I'm not initiating conversation ...
@sphennings I'm addressing what Shog might consider a "beyond-worthless" question on IPS ...
and am arguing that those questions are worthwhile to have - though people's expectations and foundations in IPS are wildly different ...
even at another soft skills site such as the Workplace SE, people's expectations and foundations seem very much aligned ...
if a developer with 3 years of experience asks a career question at the Workplace -- none of the more senior people at the Workplace would say, "WTF why would you ask such a simple question with such an Obvious answer ..."
at least I don't think that happens over at that site ...
11:19 PM
Now I could be wrong but there is a "minimum level of interpersonal skills" that is expected of the users of this site. We shouldn't need to explain to people why it's bad to troll or why we expect you to be nice.
@sphennings I don't wish to discuss this any further with you, in particular - thanks ...
I think what a lot of people are responding when people are asking questions where the objective they are seeking are problematic. "How can I get away with abusing my partner?" is a reprehensible question that people are going to respond negatively to.
@sphennings ok, if you're trying to have constructive dialogue ... and not just trying to criticize ...
those types of questions you refer to aren't even allowed on IPS ... they get closed ...
for having malicious intentions ...
@D.Hutchinson That's correct. Be nice is one of the core rules of SE after all.
right ... so I was never referring to those questions at all ...
@Cascabel you know, I stood up for Harper and posted other comments that pushes for a more balanced IPS SE site, partly because I believe in your own motto: fight for the users.
anyways, I was mostly responding to Shog ... and then Brad had some follow-up questions ...
I think we should stop here, since it's off-topic for this room ...
11:31 PM
I'm not sure why I'm getting pinged here...
@Cascabel sorry if that was a bit random ...
I would appreciate not having my beliefs construed like that, though. Believing in doing what's good for the site and its users is not really the same thing as standing up for a specific user or their cause. There are a lot of users with a lot of various beliefs, and standing up for one of them may or may not be good for the whole.
I see ...
can we chat in another room for a few minutes?
If you wish, but I do have limited time.
me too, you can leave whenever ...
how do I invite you ...

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