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12:00 AM
I like that you say "safe and happy." Also, though, RPG.SE by its nature has to assume that the "default" way to play is "with the greatest available consistency."
hey there @nitsua60
@noneuklid indeed, but fixed points vary from group to group and system to system. if you look at a game over time and it seems wildly inconsistent, you probably aren't perceiving the fixed points they do have because they're off somewhere else
@noneuklid Not sure what you mean by "consistency" there.
all rules and rulings should be consistent with one another, including published rules.
@Adeptus Personally, I won't accept money to GM. I don't want another job, I don't want the shift in expectations that comes with it. One FLGS recently started charging a per-player fee and while I haven't pushed back too hard against the notion of the table "covering" the GM, I have pushed back hard against the GM getting any sort of compensation beyond that. (And, in fact, at my table it goes the other way--I cover myself and another player and I split a third player's charge for them.)
@noneuklid Eh, that's not really an RPG.SE thing. That's a D&D-like thing, and is only important to RPG.SE on a per-question-context basis.
12:03 AM
@nitsua60 I have a friend in that exact position and he loves it haha.
@Ben Which one: they're "compensated" for GMing or they can't afford to play and other players are picking it up for them? Or they're funding another player?
The first one
@Shalvenay hiya
We've got plenty of questions where rulings and published rules aren't really relephant at all, or where the game text itself encourages mechanical inconsistency where social or narrative consistency can be better served otherwise.
Sort of like quick time events
12:05 AM
@doppelgreener a kobold named Kolumbold
@BESW yeah, which is what I was trying to convey with my comment about fixed points varying -- those rules and rulings are still consistent with each other provided the choice of fixed points used for the evaluation is correct
See, for example, the Silver Rule of Fate.
@BESW and yes, there are Qs and As where rulings and published rules aren't as relevant. sometimes the issue is a table dynamics problem that lives outside rulespace, and at other times the issue is an issue of simulation that also lives outside rulespace, if you will
...or the entire conceit of Paranoia.
@Shalvenay right; those are situations in which the discussion of consistency is irrelevant. they aren't consistent or not consistent -- they're outside rules-space.
12:09 AM
@BESW that's a good example of a nonconventional fixed point, yes :)
but within the context of rules of any game, whether D&D or QUAGS, the SE format is for answerable questions. "the rules say this but i think this" isn't a good answer.
@noneuklid No, actually, that's a much better answer than just "the rules say this," provided there's also good support for the opinion.
@BESW what would make support "good"?
Often, experience-based.
We're not experts because we've read the rules. We're experts because we've played the games.
I did one about stacking spells recently. "The rules say x; but in this case I could say breaking the rules to achieve y is just as viable"
12:11 AM
"The rules say this but I think this because I used those rules and something unexpected happened" is exactly the kind of answer the Stack wants.
so... wouldn't that be a case of rules and results being inconsistent?
We aren't here on the Stack to read the rulebooks to people. We're here to help people learn how to synthesize the mechanics, the non-mechanical text, the social context, our personal experience, the learning of the broader community, to apply all that to a particular real-life problem someone's having and find a solution for it.
@Ben problem is that rules as playtested can never deal with all variables of players creativity! i'm all about "breaking" rules for for some ingame consistency!
@BESW No, actually, that's a much better answer than just "the rules say this," provided there's also good support for the opinion I want to up vote that statement, but this is chat.
@BESW that was very beautiful!
12:14 AM
Also your point about "played the game."
@BESW Eh. I absolutely am here to read the rulebooks to people when it's needed. In fact, my only >25pnt answer is also my only one with zero opinion content.
it's also the shortest, which may be relevant.
Aye, the Stack accommodates rules-without-context questions, and those questions are easy and the answers are straightforward so they're rewarded. But it's not what the Stack is here for.
@BESW yeah, this Stack is here for hard questions that can't be solved by tossing a rulebook at them
It absolutely is -- as you yourself have shown. We're adjudicating situations in which the rules are unclear... problems people are having... based on sourceable information and our own experiences.
I'd like to see Earthling's question about familiar and border ethereal traveling reopened. I did yet another edit, to get the language into simpler prose.
12:17 AM
The "rules space" exists completely inside each group's particular social space. We agree upon a ruleset when we pick a game, and that ruleset remains intact only so long as we permit it to--as soon as our social space requires it, that rules space can and must yield.
@BESW Amen, Deacon!
Spoken like Dave Arneson, but more eloquently.
i mean ludologically i'd go further and argue that a game only exists insofar as it's been instantiated, but that's probably more than what we're talking about here
what we're doing in SE is necessarily discussing a space we ourselves do not have immediate access to, which is exactly why the documentability of the answer is so key
As Shakespeare once said, the play's the thing. (yes, that's a slight play on words ...)
There's value in treating a rules text as self-sufficient for the purposes of communication across groups, especially online, but it's no less a lie for being a convenient one we all agree to share.
and why the default assumption has to be one of consistency with the space to which all potential players have access.
12:18 AM
I love me a double pun
@KorvinStarmast badum-badum-tss-tss
@noneuklid The game space of TTRPG is a table, it is not an MMORPG. At least, that's my view
And, well. If we forget that it's a convenient falsehood, we wind up with problems like that Lady Blackbird question where we had to delete a half-dozen answers which thought D&Disms were universal truths.
Or those times people get into edit wars tagging for a system the querent hasn't defined yet.
@noneuklid Sounds like you're talking only about RAW questions. Which are strictly concerned with what the book says, even if it doesn't make logical sense.
(And then find out the querent's using a homebrew concoction instead of any of the systems being fought over.)
12:21 AM
I wonder how much pseudo logic goes into ludologic?
The rest of the time, Good Subjective answers are... good
@KorvinStarmast yeah. the default model of roleplay is designed for table-scale experiences, and needs to be altered significantly to deal with things that are broader than our social mechanisms are set up to handle
Is logic and fun a compatible mix?
Sorry, that's the Maker's Mark speaking ...
RPG.SE has a lot of trouble with RAW questions specifically because, as experts in the experience of playing, it's very hard to stick to just the text. The text may be the only common shared point between two groups, but that rarely makes it sufficient for useful answers.
@adeptus RAW is the simplest and most universally accessible way to substantiate an answer. I could say, "X has worked for me," but it's highly specific to me (for many of the reasons that have been eloquently stated).
12:23 AM
@noneuklid "X has worked for me because it provides Y and Z and avoids problems A and B"
@KorvinStarmast not always, suspension of disbelief is there for when logic gets in the way!
@noneuklid Yes and no. It depends on the topic. Making a broad statement like is a bit reductionist
@noneuklid That's why we don't say "X has worked for me." We say "X has worked for me when I did this because it caused these effects and I like those effects."
@RafaelSantos Aye, nicely put.
Personal experience is highly specific, but also provides learning others can use if it's presented as the story of the experience: that way, others can learn what they need to know from our experience. The trouble comes when we think that we learned from our experience is the only possible lesson, so we just give the learning and not the experience.
12:26 AM
I'm not sure how to respond because I don't think any of those statements modify or detract from my claim?
Then perhaps I don't understand your claim.
@BESW Slightly on topic and slightly off topic, there is a role in training and learning in the Navy based on what we call "sea stories" and "there I was" experiences where the books/manuals/regs didn't quite cover the situation ... similar space for sharing experience.
@KorvinStarmast Aye. The community-building processes of the Ruhi Institute include reflection gatherings at every level, which provide a structured space for sharing experience, consolidating learning, and planning the next steps based on what's come before.
That's where I get a lot of this stuff from.
@KorvinStarmast yeah. you can't write a SOP for every conceivable thing, so you cover regular operations and the critical/worst-case + readily conceivable irregular ops, then give the crew the flexibility and systems knowledge to improvise if they're facing an odd combination of failures or something that's messing with multiple, disparate systems
Ok, I need to look up Ruhi Institute ... thanks for the lead.
12:28 AM
RAW is the simplest and most universally accessible way to substantiate an answer. If you cite RAW -- and the question isn't specifically asking about a played situation in which RAW wasn't sufficient -- narrative guidance isn't necessary.
@noneuklid and when the RAW is unclear, or bumps into itself, then what?
@noneuklid that's assuming that rules text is up to the task of being a fixed point
Not necessary, perhaps, but unless the question is asking only for RAW an answer will always be better if it can add some supported commentary about how the RAW works in practice.
and especially in sprawling traditional systems (D&D 3.x, anything White Wolf ever published), it's often not up to that challenge
so as far as RAW bumping into itself, my usual experience is that it's the play group not liking the RAW rather than the rules actually breaking down. a good example is the "problem" of high-level characters jumping off ledges because they know it can't kill them.
12:30 AM
some days, to borrow a line from Justice Gorsuch during the Cyan oral argument, it's gibberish all the way down
there are a lot of homebrew falling systems to address this "problem," which create other problems elsewhere in the system. but there isn't any particularly compelling narrative reason i've heard for why this is a problem that needs a fix.
@BESW neato, there was a young lady in my high school English class who was my first friend in the BaHai faith. Sorry, OT, but you triggered a memory of senior year English class, which was a really good experience.
@KorvinStarmast Glad to hear it!
@Shalvenay Justice Gorsuch has the best commentary.
@noneuklid so as far as RAW bumping into itself, my usual experience is that it's the play group not liking the RAW uh ... I spend a bit of time on this site and one other discussing just that as regards 5e... how the text often bumps into itself.
@BESW he is a strongly voiced speaker with a broad command of the English language, that is certain. it sometimes can get over the top for some readers when he writes opinions, but I found what I read of his writing to be understandable
12:33 AM
eh... so far, all i've found is the text simply failing to specify something.
which is an intentional nod to the idea of the table-space as the actual area of the game... and also lazy editing.
@KorvinStarmast I will say that 5e creates more of an expectancy that the DM resolve that problem in an appropriate way than previous editions did
@Shalvenay yeah, exactly that.
@Shalvenay ...I'm also also getting him mixed up with Judge Kozinsiki.
@Shal same was as OD&D, 1e, and 2e called for, nothing new ...
... to an old fart like me
The play's the thing.
eh... 2e had the opposite problem a lot of the time, where the rules specified multiple, competing solutions.
12:35 AM
The commentary I'm reading here on the role of RAW as a simple straightforward go-to without narrative guidance necessary holds reasonably well for the majority of D&D and classic gaming questions we get, less well for the games of this decade or last decade. In D&D unless it's a narrative issue, narrative is often impossible or irrelevant to suitably advise on.
@KorvinStarmast yeah, I was more referring to the RAWishness of 3.5e
hey there @JuneShores
@noneuklid 2e was bloat, but the role of the DM was as previous. clearly stated in the DMG.
how're things going?
Howdy June
12:36 AM
@dopplegreener As games hybridize, like uh... what's that card game rpg thing...
Kickstarter. Golden Sky Stories: Twilight Tales. A Golden Sky Stories supplement that introduces the mononoke, strange creatures of pure wonder.
@noneuklid it's really the split between games whose mechanics live in "how the world works" space, and games whose mechanics live in "how the story works" space
Apocrypha. Anyway... As games like Apocrypha come out, the identity of RPGs changes (once again), but also move away from the millenial trend of games as purely narrative devices.
millenial trend of games as purely narrative devices Can you please elaborate on that thought?
In more recent gaming developments, advising on things like narrative appropriateness as if/when/how to use tools in the narrative is often pivotal to a good answer, and not mentioning it is a missing that compromises an answer.
Not always, though
@noneuklid fyi, doppel not dopple :) the LE version didn't ping me
12:40 AM
So the last couple decades, we saw the shared micro-game trend rise. SE.RPG actually introduced me to "game poems," but I was familiar with similar socially-driven improvisational games from elsewhere. What distinguished these wasn't that they were minimalist rules-sets but that they were fairly widely disseminated minimalist rules-sets.
haha, sorry. wifi keyboard and sometimes i outpace it.
No problem
also sometimes i just type not gud, so.
I have to head off to sleep, just wanted to leave that. Ttfn!
@BESW ooooooooooh
I haven't seen any millenial trend of story-focused games, @noneuklid. The Story Games movement was solidly gen-X driven.
12:42 AM
I don't mean millenial as a generation, I mean millenial as in "occurring notably within the new millenium."
Ohhh, I see.
My bad.
Story games?
@trogdor Forge-ite shenanigans.
I think it's useful to remember that all of these things have relatively old roots. The first era of every half-popular franchise getting an RPG was... the 1980s, which also encouraged experimentation with psychological/narrative/story games.
uh... if i answer that it's going to be a wiki link or something.
12:43 AM
@JuneShores Chortle
no no, that was part of my point -- it isn't that this was happening, it's that the games spread beyond what in the 80s and 90s were fairly limited circles of a few dozen or maybe hundred people into the wider TTRPG audience.
there were thousands of us in the mid to late 1970's. That's why the games kept selling
That's why the hobby did not die.
story games?
@BESW True! These different playstyles aren't new, just the new mechanics supporting them.
12:45 AM
King Arthur Pendragon and the Doctor Who RPG both came out in 1985, with strong emphasis on non-diegetic logic and psychological-driven mechanics.
@noneuklid OH, sorry, didn't notice that caveat.
@BESW I have never heard of KAP. What was its distribution like?
@BESW what do you mean by non-diegetic logic as applied to RPG?
@KorvinStarmast D&D-like games tend to use mechanics that push the gameplay forward based on internal, diegetic cause and effect. Narrative/story games tend also/instead to push the gameplay forward based on table-level causes which create in-game effects.
By table level I understand you to mean that until the table players make a choice/cause there is no effect. Right?
eg, in Pilgrims of the Flying Temple or Misspent Youth, scenes conclude because there's a countdown mechanic on the table, and that triggers the need to figure out how to end the scene.
I have also never heard of Arcane, and it does not have a Wikipedia link to tell me more about it.
In Pilgrims, you gather up stones that are white or black, between 0 and 3 each turn. When one player has at least seven stones, the scene's conclusion is triggered and you must figure out how the current moment of the scene can turn into an end of the scene.
Ok, good example, thanks.
In any case! I'll read more about KAP later on, and track down more about the Dr Who RPG's incarnations (all the incarnations I'm familiar with are very adventure-y). But is there substantial concern with the assertion that as a trend, the story-games-style significantly increased in distribution/popularity in the 'aughts?
I'm pretty sure I saw Arcane in the magazine bin of our used bookstore in the late 90s, halfway around the world. How's that for distribution?
it's kind of secondary to where i was going about current games anyway, but just, you know. personal learning experiences.
@noneuklid I think there's substantial concern with any broad claim about the nature of the TTRPG community, because there is no TTRPG community.
12:55 AM
@noneuklid I am guessing shannon applecline covered that in the book ...
I think I said "audience," not "community."
We use "community" to imply a coherence which simply doesn't exist amongst people who play TTRPGs, even today with the Internet.
Same smell.
Heh, does that mean that the RPG population trends Chaotic Neutral? 8^D
I spent half a decade in a bubble of RPG players that thought Pathfinder was radically different from D&D 3.5. I still know people who are in that bubble.
Well, Traveler was different from D&D ...
12:58 AM
absolutely. but moving on... so now, we're seeing games like Apocrypha and Kingdom Death, that aren't exactly RPG but aren't exactly tabletop game either, and are very dependent on mechanical rules-driven resolutions
or sorry, aren't exactly "board" game? need a better word.
Ah, now we're trying to define the edge of the medium. Good luck with that! Is Microscope an RPG?
backs away
no no, I'm pointing out that the play space is evolving.
and like, we could talk about that more, but it might be scary, apparently.
The edges of any kind of medium are always nebulous and any attempt to define them rigidly will fail.
I'm not really concerned with doing that, though?
1:01 AM
And I'm not really sure what point you're driving at.
@BESW I'm in a few D&D groups on Facebook. Some of the questions are "How do I do X in D&D?" Which some people try to answer as-is, and others say "You do know there's games designed to do that?"
@Adeptus Those are both valid ways to answer the question, I think.
@BESW Have you played Kingdom Death?
A friend of mine came up with a pretty expansive definition of RPG.

"A roleplaying game is a conversation where a shared set of fictional facts are created and changed, which is done without the intention of using any of the byproducts for something else."
@Adeptus I was that querent for so long. I honestly thought the d20 System was so supernally universal I tried to run a political thriller in D&D 3.5.
1:03 AM
@BESW oof. i'm so sorry. that's almost as bad as trying to run a star wars game in D20.
For political thriller, I used to play Diplomacy. :)
@BESW oh nooooo
(i kid, the second edition was mostly playable)
My revelation started when I tried to play the Stargate SG-1 d20 System RPG, but the seeds it planted took years to germinate.
@BESW Anyway, I'm gonna assume the answer is no. Which is fine. But if you were to sit down with a box of it and a group of friends, do you think you could play some arbitrary game?
1:04 AM
@noneuklid i never found a fully satisfactory game system for star wars!
@RafaelSantos Faith Corps looks promising.
@RafaelSantos me either. I didn't actually ever play the WEG version, though. I wish uh... whoever does Roll-Keep (7th Sea) had taken a crack at it.
It's a hacktogether of Fate Core, Cortex Plus, and a bit of Atomic Robo.
I'm making a Blades in the Dark hack for Star Wars. It's... rough, so far.
@RafaelSantos Have you tried any of the the official Star Wars RPGs? (I haven't, I just know they exist...)
1:06 AM
Well, OK, it's Blades, World of Dungeons, and Chuubo's all mashed together.
Mike Olsen's been publishing character sheets for the Star Wars Rebels game he runs in Faith Corps.
i have played all star wars "official" RPGs since west end games! =)
FFG's game is prety good, but I'm not a fan of the character creation.
the biggest problems is always how the force and non force character interact with eachother on the same "power level"
fantasy flight is roll-keep?
1:07 AM
i curse FFG and their fancy new dice!
My solution is to give everybody force powers indiscriminately.
i like the idea of restricting the play space of the force players significantly, given the straightjacketing nature of the force in the fiction
but that's not necessarily a good "game" solution.
@JuneShores a nice solution that
@BESW hey, i feel cheated. the internet says that KAP is RuneQuest.
the star wars version with less problems with force and non-force users was Star Wars d20 revised!
1:13 AM
@RafaelSantos Again, Faith Corps? It's part of that cadre of games that don't treat magic/powers as an overlay on a base system, but just make it one of the things you can choose from within the base system.
I haven't read faith corps yet, in fact, i never heard of it until now hehehehe!
but i will take a look, because i love some star wars RPG!
How straightjacketing is it really, though? In the OT, basically everybody has it to one degree or another. ("I've got a bad feeing about this...") In the new trilogy, it's mostly used to dramatize the conflicts that are already there. The only time it's really straightjacketing is the prequels, where the story is specifically about the corruption of power (though poorly told.)
In the new trilogy, it's ties to the past that bind you, but also anchor you to what matters.
I like the theory that Han is relatively force-sensitive, he just doesn't realise it
Han is to cool for the force!
Do we ever hear the words "force-sensitive" in the original trilogy? I thought it was a WEG addition to draw a line between characters with game defined force abilities and those without.
1:21 AM
> Horse-sensitive. You can use Will instead of the usual skill when locating nearby horses, finding signs of past horse-related activity, examining horses closely, and interacting with horses.
I love it.
I have mixed feelings about the Force honestly
One of the things I like about Faith Corps and similar systems is that it doesn't have to define the Force and what it can and can't do.
Me too.
@JuneShores Probably not. We don't hear "midichlorians" either (thankfully)
1:24 AM
I mostly wish no one tried to explain it
You just get "The Force d8" or "Jedi d6" and if you try to use it in a silly or contradictory way the group gets to talk about whether that's something we want to have in our version of the Star Wars universe.
- waves hand - "there is no midchlorians"
Because without the explanations it is cool
midichlorians are highlander 2 all over again... in the end they don't exist beyond the realms of nightmares... hahahahahaha
> The Horse is with me. You may spend a fate point to suddenly enter or leave a scene on horseback.
1:26 AM
@RafaelSantos My view on the Highlander films is... there can be only one
Yeah. The Force should have some limits, but it shouldn't have a definition beyond the binding force between beings. The more you define its origins, the less it means as a spiritual story element.
@Miniman (and any other UA/5e knowledgeables) I've heard of a "Storm Sorcerer"
What is that exactly?
@Ben It was probably the first UA to be really popular and successful, and it got published in SCAG.
Right. What exactly is it?
Sorcerer origin (subclass/archetype)
1:28 AM
Essentially it revolves around thunder and lightning spells, and gets some nifty weather control abilities and flight.
Sorcerer with lighting powers!
Like, some form of focussed Sorc class?
@Ben Like the Wild Magic Sorcerer or the Draconic Sorcerer.
Just thinking of that in line with my "adept" builds
Definitely a good fit for Jupiter Adepts, yeah.
1:29 AM
Nice... I'll look into it :)
you can be a Tiefling Bard/Sorcerer and say "taste my lighting f-cker" to anyone who loose for you in a musical duel!
> It binds the prairie together. If you are on horseback, you may spend a fate point to reach your destination in a day and a night of travel no matter how far. If there is a particularly difficult obstacle in your way, the GM may also require you to sing a campfire song to the rest of the group.
@Ben it is a great sorcerer for pirate/naval games, it has a class feature that allow it to control winds!
you can find it on either Xanathar's Guide to Everything or Sword Coast Adventurers (for some weird reason along with the Swashbuckler it is on both books)
@RafaelSantos mostly for Adventurers League, I think. Your character is restricted to PHB + 1 other book of your choice
@Adeptus oh tks, i didn't knew that!
1:34 AM
> Stop, Luke, and listen. You get +3 instead of +2 when invoking meditative aspects.
@BESW Yes. =)
@nitsua60 Is Dawn of Worlds an RPG?
@noneuklid That's the one I think of when I think of a grey boundary around the edges of RPG. I haven't quite figured out where I stand on it. I believe I think it's an RPG, and I enjoy the process I go through of examining that belief to try and use that to educate me on what I think an RPG is.
@BESW I don't know Dawn of Worlds.
It's a worldbuilding game in which you take on the role of gods but there's no hooks for actual roleplay, it's just competitive worldbuilding mechanics.
without role-play is just a game! =D
unless... it is more like the original clash of titans gods playing with mortals
1:43 AM
Yeah, kinda like that.
But you're the gods.
And any actual roleplay is totally on you.
2:06 AM
Question for Discord users - I'm looking through a list of music bots, but I can't seem to find the answer to my question: Do they play music form a preset selection of music, or can I play my music?
hey there @SoraTamashii
2:22 AM
Meow, Sha.
how're things going?
Pretty good. you?
alright here, still need to pick up another player unless you'd rather go it alone for our next session. also: is there anything from last session you'd like to see less or more of?
or anything you'd like to see for next session that I wasn't able to get into last session?
Not sure, honestly. That said, I won't be available for the rest of the week, so you have time.
My managers are changing up the schedule, which is part of my issue right now. Sorry for being so difficult.
@SoraTamashii np. as to things you'd like to see less of/more of, or introduced, for next session vs. last?
2:29 AM
As I said, not sure.
Honestly, I just want a fun experience. lol
I'm not picky.
@nitsua60 good point. I saw the question, then got drawn into the concept after forgetting that this wasn't based on a specific game/system
@Ben I mean, if it's a game with flags that's very different than a game of Time & Temps, for instance.
And... to be honest... I did kinda jump to the conclusion that it was D&D when I saw "Rouge"
[slap on the wrist]
To be super-conscientious, one might argue you should self-delete until you see whether the game/system makes your answer a good one vs. completely off-point.
(It's 95% likely you're spot-on and the game's a D&D-like, but this is how we keep the garden neat!)
@nitsua60 PLau my answer is 50% "Talk to the player", which is basically system agnostic anyway :P
But you're right
2:48 AM
Q: Can we please correct the censorship/"bad words" mistake in policy?

KorvinStarmastI do not find this to be helpful at all, and it is the direct result of Bad Policy having bad side effects. Here is the commment chain. I've edited out "frame challenge" because policy is not to signal that since it is too jargony. – Rubiksmoose 5 hours ago @Rubiksmoose - Good to...

2 hours later…
4:23 AM
hey there @nitsua60
Aw man, I was the catalyst for a meta-discussion and wasn't even around to watch it unfold. Probably for the best actually lol
@Rubiksmoose Or when you're too busy to pay proper attention, so you see it unfolding, but it's going too fast for you to follow properly or contribute
@Ben that would have been the best case scenario actually for me.
as far as what I would have been able to do an hour or so ago I mean
Ah well. Maybe next time :P
I'm hoping (but not entirely believing) that I won't make any meta-worth oopsies in the future actually lol
4:37 AM
Haha. That implies a whole separate degree of "oopsie".
Like, you get a comment, then there's the chat ping, then there's the meta post.
@Rubiksmoose “How does one solve a Rubik’s Moose?”
@Yuuki Very carefully
@Yuuki Maple syrup has to be involved
“If I try to turn an antler, I’m going to get horns though my spleen.”
@Yuuki man that adds a whole layer of meta challenge to the puzzle
5:34 AM
Ahhh... @Miniman (and anyone else) your answer seems to be the answer for this question (my answer leads to the same conclusion as yours). So does that make it a dupe?
@Ben Nah, they're definitely different questions. That one could be answered with, e.g., "Xanathar's added a Make Object Invisible spell!"
@RafaelSantos @doppelgreener oh neato yeah
@Miniman Ohhh... yeah
I need to do more reading haha
2 hours later…
8:05 AM
@Miniman I cannot find that spell anywhere...
An Di have spent the past two hours looking. Lol
8:15 AM
@Ben Yeah, me neither.
8:39 AM
Me thinks it might be a WIP
1 hour later…
9:54 AM
We had another session of a published campaign yesterday. We almost drowned in a river because of a series of bad rolls, the GM seemed a bit frustrated and kept trying to save us by giving us more rolls to try climbing out. (we had a rather solid plan for a safer passage but that would've required us having slightly more rope)
We had an encounter with some suspicious locals and a word-against-word situation with them and a mysterious forest person claiming each other agents of evil. Who can we trust in this wicked world?!
Finally an encounter which seemed deadly but we actually did quite good and survived with minor injuries only.
@BESW @trogdor @JuneShores @Miniman Barring some new unforeseen event, I'll be joining you all this Saturday for geek night -- and I'm looking forward to playing with you, June & Miniman, if you'll be there too. :)
@KorvinStarmast superb. (@trogdor)
It was a fun session, and some of the NPCs were really cool, but still I feel I'm having fun despite the campaign rather than because of it...
@kviiri I can interpret this as occurring in real life outside the game and I am enjoying the ambiguity.
Any ambiguity that's also amusing is worth it
But, also, there is a lesson there for the group and/or GM -- don't roll the dice unless you're okay with all possible results it can give you. The GM there didn't want you in the river nor did they want you drowning. You're fantasy heroes and it's almost certainly not interesting to ask you for a roll to see if you'll fail and drown and die.
@BESW once wanted to give a player's ninja character a Moment of Awesome to kick down a door, and it was extremely easy to do, so he called for the roll expecting there was no chance of failure... and the player's roll failed and he chose not to spend resources to make it succeed. So the ninja just sort of failed and bounced off the door instead of kicking it open, which BESW said he didn't feel great about afterwards.
For us that was a compelling learning moment of not rolling when failure will be boring.
10:03 AM
@doppelgreener Yeah, I try to live by this philosophy myself, but I've already spent most of my "whine about DnDisms" tokens elsewhere... :<
I understand the importance of constructive feedback but I also understand that any feedback I give is not likely to be seen as constructive at this time.
10:17 AM
Oof, that's right :(
I forgot about that
I've had to re-learn that lesson over and over and over.
Like, I had the opportunity to learn it in one of my very first sessions ever.
Hmm. Maybe that's one reason I like games like Roll For Shoes, where rolling is always the right answer.
It may not be rigorous or really great for most kinds of play, but it's much much easier.
10:41 AM
@doppelgreener I'm sorry to say I won't be - nothing personal, of course :P
@doppelgreener It'll be the first day of Ayyám-i-Há! Is there anything particular you'd like to do?
11:04 AM
@doppelgreener mini can't make it last I understood
@BESW Looks like a good one
Turned out to be a good one
Yeah, they remember it fondly but I think I'd handle it a lot differently now.
I talk about the ninja/door incident a little here (at the very end, and in the comments):
A: What's a good Difficulty for a 5-aspect 20-skill point FATE game?

BESWThe basic math is this: A difficulty of [the rating of the skill being rolled] will succeed almost 40% of the time (and succeed or tie about 60% of the time). Increasing the difficulty rapidly increases the chances of failure: a difficulty 2 higher than the skill being rolled means the chances of...

@BESW i'll get back to you on that in a little bit!! rushing on a deadline :)
No rush.
Interestingly, our GM has previously expressed interest in introducing a lot of auto-successes to the game. In the vein of "you're a rogue, so your awesomeness includes not being stumped by picking ordinary locks. That's routine for you."
But I guess this premade campaign module is, at the same time, rocking him off balance.
You might poke him with "let it ride."
A: Dealing with skill rerolls by several players

SevenSidedDieA few games resolve this situation by dealing with it explicitly in the rules, and building the check system to accomodate how it handles this situation. The most notable one is Burning Wheel and its Let It Ride rule: The result of one test stands for the duration of the situation. When in ...

11:42 AM
@doppelgreener That is fun
([is reading Ki Khanga]) I used to skip over the "what is a roleplaying game?" section when reading the text for a new game. Now I read it very carefully and critically, because it's a very good measure of the authors' perspective and mindset which can really help with understanding the rest of the text.
Fair enough
One question - why the double brackets?
Because I use brackets for third-person narrative description, and parentheses for setting apart text delivered as an aside. In this case I wanted to deliver third-person narrative as an aside.
Also fair.
But going back to your point, I can understand that. While I personally have not had (as) much experience in the world of RPGs, I can understand that to one person, the definition of perception they have of a game, or system, would be very different to another
Call of Cthulhu has one of the best descriptions I've ever seen laying out exactly what it expects of players and GM, why, what role they play, and what game experience effect their roles are expected to produce.
Ki Khanga's section is very broad but also very specific--it's almost 2000 words comparing and contrasting TTRPGs with "let's pretend" play and street improv, deconstructing the pacing of TV shows and applying it to RPG sessions, suggesting that good GMs (griots) should be offered home-made sweet potato pie, talking about the purpose of randomizing mechanics and when to use them...
Unfortunately the book is not laid out well for an RPG reference text.
I've seen worse, but I'd have to dig out examples like the SG-1 RPG.
12:03 PM
I myself am currently perusing the Xanathar's Guide for the first time.
I think I've essentially stepped up a level,
Well, I've been playing 5e, and a few other systems over the past few years, but I have never really ventured beyond the standard texts. Xanathar's is the first "supplement" that I have officially purchased for any system.
12:49 PM
I'm playing a Kensei Monk from XgtE. It's been quite fun, although most of the fun comes from the class so far I guess.
Having a lot of attacks really makes being a melee guy more interesting, there's a lot less wasted turns because I seldom miss all of them.
1:27 PM
XGtE is good
1:43 PM
What are your guys' thoughts on the 5e release schedule, vs 3.5? We're now about three and a half years in, and have had only two player splats (Adventurer's Guide and Xanathar's Guide) and one monster book (Volo's Guide).
But 10 adventures
In the same time span (July 2003 to end of 2007), 3.5 had published its entire run (4th Edition was released in June 2008)
Also - damn, 4e is 10 years old?
I haven't really been paying attention, but I sort of like content coming in slow. When I started 4e there was already a ton of books out. It was a bit overwhelming :)
huh... yea I guess it is
I like it this way. I'm a fan of more adventures and fewer 1st party books. I'm a big fan of homebrew-as-needed.

Hey, GM. I like Monk a lot, but this doesn't really fit what I'm looking for. what can we do?
Hey GM, I had this silly idea..... hear me out. I want to make a luchador. can you help me achieve that?
rather than a book with 50 options for each class.
> I want to make a luchador. can you help me achieve that?
Well first you have to take Luchador Focus, for which you'll need to buy Complete Luchador
That will just make you barely viable, so you'll really want Improved Luchador Focus, from Heroes of Luchadorror
1:53 PM
don't make me lol at work
idk if "Luchadorror" was an intentional typo, but I liked it a lot
Unfortunately, it doesn't scale, but there is an obscure 3.0 adventure module with Intense Luchador Training, but it has 17 feats as a prerequisite and you have to be a muckdweller with no eyes
@goodguy5 I'm riffing on Heroes of Horror
I suspected, but wasn't certain
Of course, you could just play a cleric, in which case you get the entire luchador's blessing line of spells for free that basically do all the same stuff as the feats but better
Interesting question, though.... how would you make a luchador in 5e?

Monk or Fighter, I assume.
I could see a case made for rogue or bard - theatrics and costumes are key to the whole thing
If you have a fearsome mask and pose that strikes fear into your enemies, you never need actually step into the ring
1:57 PM
I'd reskin a Monk, I guess.
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