6:10 AM
@ChristianHupfer <3<3<3
@AlanMunn boo

3 hours later…
8:54 AM
@JosephWright I see travis gets same tu test failure as I did, you made an explicit commit in the reverse direction for that glue set value something different in your setup?

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, not sure
@DavidCarlisle I guess I'll need to check with the VM (after work)

@JosephWright OK I was considering checking in an updated tlg but once I saw that would just revert your last change I thought I'd check first:-) Can leave it for now. meanwhile luatex list discussion going as usual.

@DavidCarlisle Probably you are right: I'd rather have Travis-CI pass so we pick up 'real' issues. Give me a couple of minutes: checking on my work PC.
@DavidCarlisle Indeed: seems we probably can't use those features in cross-engine work (it's fine for Hans as he has only one behaviour)

@UlrikeFischer "and then suddendlz y come out as z" only a German would write that:-)
@JosephWright I'm not sure. We can easily arrange the the only time the behaviour is different is if \csname\endcsname is \let to \relax that may be acceptable (and less likely to show up than other luatex difference such as differences in hyphenation) or it wouldn't be the first time if after initial pushback luatex gets fixed anyway...

@DavidCarlisle It is pretty esoteric, I agree

9:07 AM
@JosephWright and while Hans is sort of right to claim that expansion isn't the main bottleneck, if you get 4 second speedup on ~4million on these tests it's going to be noticeable on even real size documents by the time Will has done an ifundefined check on a few thousand math command redefinitions.

@DavidCarlisle True
@DavidCarlisle I guess we need to decide on the policy here (both for 2e and expl3)

@DavidCarlisle You mean english people don't have more than one keyboard layout on their computer? ;-) (I even switched to english to type it!).

@UlrikeFischer usually they don't but even if they do they only switch " and @ not y and z because everyone knows that z needs to be handy to reach at the bottom row. zzzz

9:31 AM
@DavidCarlisle and I thought the english lazout put z in the middle of the kezboard as thez have so manz words which uses it ;-).

@UlrikeFischer iz not lizzen to youzz miztaken apozzimazion to englizh

@DavidCarlisle German or Cyech, for that sake :-(

@yo' same thing, they both look like Portuguese from here.

10:04 AM
@DavidCarlisle isto é português, não há muitos z.

@AlanMunn No, you missed the punch line actually ;-)

10:21 AM
@DavidCarlisle So few, and it includes foreign words like zloty. I doubt that they can make whole sentences with z like we: Ziemlich zickige Zimtschnecken zanken zusammen zum zehnten Zahltag!

@UlrikeFischer that's what we can do with some letters, too! There's actually whole prose poetry story called Hoří where all words start with H. Btw, it borrows several German words that we know and use sometimes: Hilfe, hilfe! Haleká hysterický henlainovec Havránek. Hoří Hackenkreuz, himmell hergot.

10:40 AM
@UlrikeFischer Funny: Google translate's auto language detection routine thought it was Hebrew and asked: Did you mean: זימליך זכי׳ זימצכניכאן זנקן זוסמאן זום זהנטן זהלתג

@DavidCarlisle Could you send me your raw log for tu-tl2e7 with XeTeX? I get the same small difference in glue on my work PC as I did on my laptop: there must be something subtle going on!

@yo' It's hard to beat the guy who wrote an entire novel in English without ever using the letter ‘e’.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen That's easy. "novl".

@HaraldHanche-Olsen For Czech this is the standard case, and omitting the other vowels as well ;-)

@StefanKottwitz That's cheating, though. All the words were correctly spelled, vowels and all.

10:45 AM
@JosephWright I'll run again and dig it out, I thought we normalised all the values to 4dp anyway (or perhaps not)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :-)

@DavidCarlisle We do for LuaTeX ...

Gadsby is a 1939 novel by Ernest Vincent Wright written as a lipogram, which does not include words that contain the letter "e". The plot revolves around the dying fictional city of Branton Hills, which is revitalized as a result of the efforts of protagonist John Gadsby and a youth group he organizes. Though vanity-published and little-noticed in its time, the book is a favourite of fans of constrained writing and is a sought-after rarity among some book collectors. Later editions of the book have sometimes carried the alternative subtitle 50,000 Word Novel Without the Letter "E". In 1968, the...

@JosephWright ah yes

“Despite Wright's claim, published versions of the book do contain a handful of uses of the letter "e".” – oops

10:48 AM
@DavidCarlisle Actually, there isn't a lot other than the .tlg when you read the log ... I do wonder where this difference comes from!
@DavidCarlisle Could it be a binary thing? I guess you are using a Linux-esque version, as is Travis, whilst I have a w32 build

@JosephWright possibly but I can't run the test on its own texlua build.lua check tu-tl2e7 and texlua build.lua check -H config-TU.lua tu-tl2e7 both make formats then say
Running checks on
tu-tl2e7
Error: failed to find .pdf, .tlg or .lve file for tu-tl2e7!

@DavidCarlisle You need texlua build.lua check -cconfig-TU tu-tl2e7: the config file only deals with the differences ...

@JosephWright I should read the doc one day:-)
  Check failed with difference files
- ../build/test/tu-tl2e7.xetex.diff
I'll send the stuff by mail @JosephWright

Hello all,
Siunitx is making me crazy
why does 90° give 90° in pdf, but \ang{90} gives 90 in pdf?
I even tried using \sisetup{math-degree = °,text-degree = °} in order to be sure the same unicode character was used, but still notice the difference

@nathdwek Doesn't happen to me. MWE?
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{siunitx}
\begin{document}
$\ang{90}$
\end{document}
↑ Produces the degree sign both with pdftex and luatex.

11:01 AM
yes
I am also trying to find the guily package

Hello friends. I'd like to ask a kind of off topic question, about some format style on typing. If someone has free time...

also xelatex btw
Aha
@HaraldHanche-Olsen mathspec is causing trouble
\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{mathspec}
\usepackage{siunitx}

\begin{document}
\ang{90}
\end{document}
regardless of package order

@nathdwek the important output from that document is (as usual) in the log not the pdf, the log says Missing character: There is no ° in font cmr10!

@DavidCarlisle do I have to specify lmodern if I'm using mathspec?
Maybe I'm just being daft
I'm using mathspec once because I wanted a specific mono font in maths. I think for the moment I will just drop it.

\usepackage[math]{mathspec}
@nathdwek ↑ this seems to cure it
@DavidCarlisle I looked in the doc. Sorry about that.
@nathdwek but it might interfere with whatever else you wanted to do with the mathspec package.

11:15 AM
I have a Lemma with italic shape statement.
In the statement, there is an enumerated list.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen who cares about the typeset output so long as the log is clean? :-)
4

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yeah I'va had other issues with mathspec so for the moment I am just going to drop it.

and the first item in the list contains only math contents (eg. \item $H(X)=0$)

I just don't remember if by default (I don't need anything else than lmodern) I should still use fontspec or if I can just go without either of fonstpec and mathspec?

@nathdwek if using xetex use fontspec (or why use xetex at all?) for math, either the default or mathspec or unicode-math are sort of reasonable but different options (unicode-math likely to be the default math way for xelatex and lualatex in the end)

11:19 AM
My question is: usually, what people do with punctuation? In math mode or out? I believe that it is part of the text, not the math, so should be outside $'s. But it is quite ugly to have and italic ; just after the (X) So: \item$H(X)=0$; or \item$H(X)=0;$? @Sigur in an item like that, you shouldn't use punctuation at all @Sigur or \item$H(X)=0$\textup{;} if you want it to look like you want but remain logically pure markup @DavidCarlisle, so would you insert aout the math mode, right? Seems to work as expected without them @HaraldHanche-Olsen, hum... even if other items start and end with text and so need some punctuation? 11:23 AM @nathdwek without them" (what is "them" here) @Sigur don't know, I'd just do whatever I felt like on the day:-) either of mathspec or fontspec Sorry I am a bit of a blackbox user, and coming from latex I have the habit of inputenc+fontenc so I was just wondering if similarly fontspec was basically needed to get xelatex going But reading the package doc, I believe the answer is just no @DavidCarlisle, thanks for attention. I'll keep it like normal text and let the Lemma style format itself. Regards. @nathdwek without fontspec you will not be able to use any fonts other than the fonts you could use in standard tex so get almost no benefit from xetex. I was thinking that hyphenation would be wrong but since last year xelatex will default to unicode encoding so you will get correct hyphenation and opentype version of latin modern, so for a latin modern document you can skip fontspec as well yes @HaraldHanche-Olsen that's wrong; you always use puctuation in correctly typeset text. 12:21 PM 2 ^^ It get's better (now even only two numbers). 12:35 PM @Sigur According to the above reference, complete sentences should have punctuation, yes. But it also says there are no firm rules. One example contains phrases (incomplete sentences) without punctuation. (There is some bad HTML markup in those examples, though.) 1:02 PM @ChristianHupfer No, I didn't miss the punch line. @yo' There are loads of cases in linguistics where punctuation would be just wrong. :) @ChristianHupfer I don't think so. After all $V_{\mathrm{Ananas}} \approx \mathit{pi} \cdot z \cdot z \cdot a\$. I wonder if this count as a proof that ananas and pizza belong together?

@UlrikeFischer If we can have spherical cows, why not cylindrical pineapples?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ^^^^^ isn't this the default form?

1:17 PM
@UlrikeFischer Ah. of course … so that is the image @AlanMunn should have used in chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/42143533#42143533

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Fresh pineapple is often sold as a cylinder of rings too, but I couldn't find an appropriate image.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen He is linguist not mathematican, his ananas was cylindrical enough.

@egreg Hi Prof. I hope you have read not only the email for Christmas and Happy New Year's greetings and the general notice to all users. A hug of esteem. Sebastiano. I thank you for the help also for the elimination of the ban in the Mathematics site. All right now I can even ask questions. Greetings.

@Sebastiano Very good news for starting a happy new year!

1:33 PM
@UlrikeFischer I'm sure the topologists wouldn't care either. :)

@AlanMunn Yes, but the topologists wouldn't calculate a volume.

@UlrikeFischer @AlanMunn but they would care about the hole in the middle.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Doughnut pizza anyone?

@DavidCarlisle Oh god!

1:37 PM
@AlanMunn there are few foods that can't be improved by deep frying:-)

@DavidCarlisle Is this your Scottish roots coming out?

@AlanMunn 'tis you with the Scottish background

@DavidCarlisle I know but I seem to have missed the deep frying gene.

Quack!

1:43 PM
@PauloCereda deep fried duck pizza
2

@AlanMunn no nay never no more
@DavidCarlisle OH NO

1:55 PM
@DavidCarlisle I do not follow it!

@CarLaTeX also, do not follow the link in my post six entries ago

2:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle That's structurally ambiguous. Do you deep fry the duck and put it on the pizza or do you deep fry the whole duck pizza? I'm so confused.

@AlanMunn ask @PauloCereda which he would prefer

@AlanMunn English is confusing in that way. It could be solved by grouping: {deep fried duck} pizza or deep fried {duck pizza}.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen You seem to have a thing for telling linguists how to do their jobs. ;)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I do not follow it, too :)

@AlanMunn Well, someone has to do it.

2:16 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen LOL

2 hours later…
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Most of the ones mentioned there would get semicolons and a full stop

@yo' Not sure what you mean by “would”. According to whom= In the three examples, only the middle list received any punctuation – and that is because each item is a complete sentence.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen well, as English has no strict authority and it is "habitual" at best (@AlanMunn surely knows how to express this properly). As sorry for that, I missed to mention "would ... from me"

@yo' Ah well, the page I referenced also said that there are no strict rules, implying that opinions differ. So I admit to being a bit too opinionated at the start. (But then so were you, in your response.) What we can probably agree on is that each author should try to adopt a consistent style. At least within a single document.
@yo' And in any case, @AlanMunn should beware: I master linquistics just as well as @DavidCarlisle masters Portuguese, for sure.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yeah. What I mention is basically what I apply when doing my work. I also have to somehow take into account that while the journal is strictly English, it is published in Czechia, so whenever there's a choice, I tent to go towards what the Czech typography would do.

4:25 PM
Speaking of which, here he is. Hello, @AlanMunn.

I do science and I prefer to have everything as complete sentences, i.e., such that if you remove any formatting other than section titles, the text is consistent.

@yo' That seems like a good strategy in general.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I know only one case where this is very difficult to apply, and that is with commutative diagrams.

@yo' Well, I consider a commutative diagram akin to a picture, and they don't typically fit into some regular sentence structure either.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen not quite true, they usually play the role of a displayed equation:

4:31 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen These sorts of concerns thankfully aren't in the domain of linguistics at all. So I get to have opinions unencumbered by scientific reality. :)

@AlanMunn Excellent! Fire at will! Opinions unencumbered by fact are so much more fun.

@AlanMunn btw, I have an etymological question (out of curiosity):

@yo' Shoot

please, do you know what is the origin of Bohemia (part of Czechia), Bohemian (as in Bohemian rhapsody), la bohème (a she-Gipsy, moreorless)?
I'm pretty much confused about the number of various meanings this word has

@yo' Looking it up in a dictionary, one possible theory is that Gypsies were erroneously believed to come from Bohemia/Böhmen, and so were called Bohemians.
@yo' And from there, the common practice of applying the term to artists who live an unconventional life.

4:40 PM
@yo' The OED has no etymology for Bohemia itself other than the name of the region. It first appears as beem or boeme in the mid 15thc. The association with gypsies appears to be borrowed from French though, apparently because people thought gypsies came from Bohemia. This then gets extended to more metaphorical 'gypsy' in the sense of outside the norms of society. But the etymology is quite weak by OED standards.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh so it's really Bójové (an old tribe living in Central Europe) -> Bohemia (land) -> Bohemian (Gipsy) -> bohemian (free lifestyle), wow!
@AlanMunn interesting to come from a country which has been known as "the country of Gipsies" for ages :D

@yo' That sounds right then, given the Bójové name which the OED doesn't mention.
@yo' Despite the fact that the gypsies come from much further east... (originally).

@AlanMunn sure.
The Boii (Latin plural, singular Boius; Ancient Greek: Βόιοι) were a Gallic tribe of the later Iron Age, attested at various times in Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy), Pannonia (Hungary and its western neighbours), parts of Bavaria, in and around Bohemia (after whom the region is named in most languages; comprising the bulk of the Czech Republic), and Gallia Narbonensis. In addition the archaeological evidence indicates that in the 2nd century BC Celts expanded from Bohemia through the Kłodzko Valley into Silesia, now part of Poland and the Czech Republic. They first appear in history in connection...
and
Bojové byli mocným keltským kmenem, který se skládal z několika větví. Jedna z nich osídlila přibližně ve 4. století př. n. l. střední a severozápadní Čechy, které začaly být později nazývány římskými zeměpici historiky zemí Bojů, Bohemií – latinsky Boiohaemum. Další území, která odvozují svůj název od Bojů jsou Bavorsko (Baiowaria) a Lužice (Boica). == Bojové na českém území == Kultura Bojů se lišila od keltské skupiny usídlené v jižních Čechách. Pro ni byly typické mohylové pohřby, zatímco pro Boje kostrové pohřbívání. Nejvýznamnější bojská hradiště (podle latiny označována jako oppidum...

@yo' There's a wonderful movie Latcho Drom which traces their routes through music. youtube.com/watch?v=J3zQl3d0HFE

@AlanMunn bookmarking this for later, I might be interesting!

4:49 PM
@yo' It's a gorgeous film.

@AlanMunn well, I saw the opera La bohème, which wasn't quite about Gipsy people, but I still saw some similarities to my experience from here :)

@yo' Opera is about the only domain of music with which I have almost no familiarity. Opera and death metal.

@AlanMunn Operas are fine if they're not classical (classicist).
For instance this one is really funny, quite on the boundary of opera, ballet and drama

@yo' Fidelio is already too modernistic. Later opera is not worthy listening.

@egreg opera is a theathral form, not a musical form ;-)

5:09 PM
@AlanMunn Boemia, aqui me tens de regresso? 😁
Also, quack from the shaky bus

@PauloCereda qua-a-a-a-a-a-a-ck-ck-ck-ck-ck

@yo' ooh ❤️🍕🐧

Gotta plug my laptop in the electricity and the plug is not at this table, so I'll probably simply be off. (Well, then I go to a Taizé prayer here in Prague in about 30 minutes.)
So see you later everyone, and thanks!

5:27 PM
@PauloCereda :)

2 hours later…
7:24 PM
@barbarabeeton Where are you today? We miss you! Are they having you climb stairs all day?

1 hour later…
8:24 PM
@UlrikeFischer It's only a proof for slices of pine apple in a cylindrical tin box ;-)

8:36 PM
Got a BibTex question, if anyone's around: I'm trying to reproduce a certain bibliography item that has multiple papers (all by the same authors) in one citation.
not multiple citations at the same time, but a single citation with multiple refs

9:00 PM
@Semiclassical I understand you believe you want to do this, but: DO NOT DO THIS

@yo' Okay. Why?

@DavidCarlisle Bug disappears with a new title ;)

9:25 PM
@Semiclassical It'sunem
@Semiclassical It's unsemantical. Biblio item is an item, no matter how you cite it; if you cite many items, use sort&compress

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- reasonable guess. i've spent a couple of hours on a recumbent bicycle, "trekking" over four miles (more exercise than i was getting before my mishap). what with the only flat spot to put a lunch tray on top of my closed laptop, that doesn't leave much time to indulge in chatting. but i see you all are getting along quite nicely without me.

9:41 PM
@barbarabeeton Good to hear from you. So how is the stair climbing going? I understand that is the critical issue for when you get to go home, after all. Speaking of recumbent bicycles, I have one myself, but that one actually has wheels and gets me from A to B. Not in winter, though. It gives me much less control on an icy surface than a regular bike does.
@barbarabeeton And yes, we do get along. I try to teach @AlanMunn some linguistics, but it's hard.

@JosephWright I think I have the includeinrelease tests sorted out trickier than I thought:-)

Quack. :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- yes, i'm mastering clambering up and down stairs with a cane and a good solid handrail. the rehab room is on the first floor and my cave on the second. several times i have returned to my cave by stairs, but i still go down to rehab by elevator. but no elevators at home. also, no handrail for the four steps at the entry, so that has to be figured out. but until i get to talk to the orthopedic surgeon (whom i've never even met!), nothing is certain.

@DavidCarlisle Cool

@PauloCereda did you saw tex.stackexchange.com/a/409386/2388? (Check also @samcarter's comments ...)

9:47 PM
@DavidCarlisle Seen edit for tex.stackexchange.com/questions/407940/…? I think it's likely related to the file itself

@UlrikeFischer OH MY

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- @AlanMunn's linguistics exposure is more current than mine. the only area i'd be willing to challenge him on is double objects in english with no preposition -- the subject of my master's thesis. and then, probably, only to throw odd examples at him, and ask him if they were okay according to his idiolect.

@JosephWright no will look. currently doing a full check (again) after that am I correct to think that git add <my changed files>; git commit -m whatever; git pull --rebase; git push is the right incantation to avoid it moaning about the changes you just pushed for the tu tests?

hello, and quack, @PauloCereda. i assume you're done with the shaky bus for the day.

@barbarabeeton Hi, Barbara! Yes, no more shaky buses for the week. :) I also am sufficiently wet for the day as well, too much rain in São Paulo! How is the recovery going? If someone is being annoying, you could poke him/her with the cane! :)

9:52 PM
@UlrikeFischer -- my immediate reaction to that was that a sleepy ducky should have her head tucked under her wing, so sleepy eyelashes could probably not even be seen.

@barbarabeeton That was also the first comment of my husband ;-). But putting the head under the wing could get difficult ;-).

@PauloCereda -- oh, the only really annoying thing is that nobody tells me anything. they just feed me, come to get me when it's time for a rehab session, and then send me back to my room. everyone is very nice, not an unkind word. but no information! that's frustrating.

@barbarabeeton You did a master's in linguistics? And ended up at the AMS? Oh well, mathematicians use language too, so I guess it makes sense.

@barbarabeeton Oh no, you should definitely have feedback on your recovery!
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I am a duck working on theoretical computer science. :)

@PauloCereda Better that than medicine. Quacks aren't tolerated there.

9:59 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- yes, after a few years at the ams, i went back to school to keep my brain from rotting. (still not sure that succeeded.) i started college trying to become an applied mathematician, but the required courses in pure math were taught by male individuals who didn't like the idea that females should be mathematicians. so i ended up in german studies (the only program i had enough credits in to graduate) with a heavy dose of linguistics. much more fun, actually.

ooh

@JosephWright I get with bb no image - neither with pdflatex nor lualatex, with viewport both works fine.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- the linguistics was actually ideal background for the work i've done at ams as representative to unicode, getting a few thousand symbols added to unicode. (added mostly in unicode 4.0; look at the credits in that version.)

10:17 PM
@barbarabeeton … male individuals who didn't like the idea that females should be mathematicians? That sucks big time. Reminds me of Nina Simone, who wanted to study classical piano but couldn't. Still, she built a solid career in jazz. And probably a million examples that we never hear about.
@barbarabeeton ↑ It seems I am becoming slightly incoherent. Time to go to bed. G'night.

@UlrikeFischer Hmm: I just took the code Heiko had ...
@DavidCarlisle Yes

10:37 PM
@JosephWright how long does it take you to do build.lua check in base? my machine seems to be running slow tonight it's been going an hour and not finished, I thought it was faster

@DavidCarlisle Not that long :)

@JosephWright Sorry not quite sure what I did previously. Now I get the same as the op: bb works (again) with pdflatex but not with lualatex.

@JosephWright I've got some other stuff going I may be struggling for memory but I'll leave it now (just watching the news anyway:-) but just noticed it hadn't finished... but it's an i7 and ssd disk it ought to be relatively fast

@UlrikeFischer Hmm
@UlrikeFischer Think I've tracked it down: the changes need to use \AtBeginDocument
@UlrikeFischer There is something odd up with LuaTeX: may take a little while to track down (not tonight)y

10:58 PM
@JosephWright I don't care about the bb-key ;-). If it were for me you could drop it ...

@UlrikeFischer I tried that: didn't seem popular!
@UlrikeFischer I think everything is now working: doing a release as I type

@JosephWright more than one?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Well I started out in math/CS and ended up in linguistics. (A pretty common path in the field.) So it goes both ways.